np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[effyouzion]

Firstly, Volt Switch/hidden power grass/ice is entirely different than u-turning. The whole idea behind u-turn + regen is that it's healing while dealing damage. And, sure, bulky waters can beat it too, but what I'm saying is that torn-t can easily come in on pokemon like Machamp, and when you bring in your bulky water it takes 10-20% damage from u-turn while torn recovers off. It gets free switches and generates free turns for its teammates: For instance, it can easily grab free spikes for Roserade or free subs for Shaymin because it draws in Suicune/Slowbro/Swampert etc. I don't understand how saying things get worn down by u-turn is a bad argument, since it's unlike any other u-turner except for mienshao in the fact that it's giving itself health back when it's u-turning. And the thing with mienshao is that its bulk is WAY less than torn-t.

I just want to highlight this and say that EVERYTHING seems really good when you assume correct prediction. If the guy had left his Machamp in, took nothing from u-turn, and hit the switch in with the correct move, the Torn-T user would be at a huge disadvantage. That play can go either way.

If the Torn-T user always predicts right, then yes, he is going to cause some damage. If he predicts wrong, that strategy goes out the window. You can't use a 50/50 prediction as an argument that something is broken.

 

[Patrick1088]

I don't think Torn T is broken, he's everywhere (and he should be) but he's not 2hkoing things like Weavile did or walling half the metagame like Chansey was. People say OMG REGENERATOR, but he's weak to rocks. Essentially all that chip damage you land on him is permanent when rocks are on the field. He also can't break walls without life orb, which hurts his survivability even more. Then you realize his best STAB is 70% accurate. Itemless physical sets work but are walled by any bulky water or tank not named Chesnaught, and therefore not hard to find a switch in for.

I feel like he's going to stay banned just because people are already in that mindset that he's broken, but as a neutral observer with 0 emotional investment either way, I think he should stay.

But, that's the problem with Torn-T. You don't know what set it is running. Let me show you some calcs. Let's say you see Torn-T and assume "Hey, it must be the itemless Torn-T. You send out Slowbro, knowing the best that he can do is Knock Off (and if you have Rocky Helmet, that's even better!). You run your calcs and they look:

252 Atk Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

And then Torn-T hits Slowbro with Grass Knot...

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, going purely physical is a bad idea, what about going special and lots of HP, good ol' Blissey!

252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 271-321 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 396-466 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Whoops, Blissey is gone after SR and switching into Acrobatics (easily a spammable move).

Mega Aggron can tank hits left and right and doesn't care about some SE non-STAB fighting move...

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 216-255 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Whoops, Aggron is 2HKO as well. Surely, Florges can save us!

252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236 Def Florges: 153-181 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 205-243 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You can't assume Torn-T runs one set. It gets phenomenal coverage; even more so than Victini, but it has greater Sp Atk and Speed, similar bulk, less weaknesses and can Regenerate it's health back. It can pick and choose it's coverage moves to take out it's so called "checks" and "counters".

As people stated before, Mega Amphy and Mega Aero are probably the closest pokes considered "counters" due to their Flying Resist and overall great bulk. Other than that, it's ability to go easily as mixed, not be worn down by SR and such a selective speed tier (I've been seeing a buttload of Noivern for the simple reason that it sits 2 base points higher in speed and can hit hard with Specs) that it makes for an unhealthy meta game. I saw a comment about letting "great" pokes like Jolteon come into the light so Torn-T is making the meta more healthy. If you are forced to use Jolteon for the simple fact that it's a flying resist (which we just banned Staraptor for let me remind you) and is faster than the hell bird, then you are using a very specific poke to counter a broken threat.

PS. Torn-T gets Iron Tail...

252 Atk Tornadus-T Iron Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 208-246 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tornadus-T Iron Tail vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 208-246 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

without life orb, let me remind you.

 

[effyouzion]

But, that's the problem with Torn-T. You don't know what set it is running. Let me show you some calcs. Let's say you see Torn-T and assume "Hey, it must be the itemless Torn-T. You send out Slowbro, knowing the best that he can do is Knock Off (and if you have Rocky Helmet, that's even better!). You run your calcs and they look:

252 Atk Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

And then Torn-T hits Slowbro with Grass Knot...

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 244-289 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, going purely physical is a bad idea, what about going special and lots of HP, good ol' Blissey!

252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 271-321 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 396-466 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Whoops, Blissey is gone after SR and switching into Acrobatics (easily a spammable move).

Mega Aggron can tank hits left and right and doesn't care about some SE non-STAB fighting move...

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 216-255 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Whoops, Aggron is 2HKO as well. Surely, Florges can save us!

252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236 Def Florges: 153-181 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 205-243 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You can't assume Torn-T runs one set. It gets phenomenal coverage; even more so than Victini, but it has greater Sp Atk and Speed, similar bulk, less weaknesses and can Regenerate it's health back. It can pick and choose it's coverage moves to take out it's so called "checks" and "counters".

As people stated before, Mega Amphy and Mega Aero are probably the closest pokes considered "counters" due to their Flying Resist and overall great bulk. Other than that, it's ability to go easily as mixed, not be worn down by SR and such a selective speed tier (I've been seeing a buttload of Noivern for the simple reason that it sits 2 base points higher in speed and can hit hard with Specs) that it makes for an unhealthy meta game. I saw a comment about letting "great" pokes like Jolteon come into the light so Torn-T is making the meta more healthy. If you are forced to use Jolteon for the simple fact that it's a flying resist (which we just banned Staraptor for let me remind you) and is faster than the hell bird, then you are using a very specific poke to counter a broken threat.

PS. Torn-T gets Iron Tail...

252 Atk Tornadus-T Iron Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 208-246 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tornadus-T Iron Tail vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 208-246 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

without life orb, let me remind you.

You can do calcs to make anything look good. And there's plenty of mons in UU that can run the exact set to counter their standard switch ins (Mew, Celebi, Victini, etc). None of that makes him too good for UU.

I stand by my original points.

 

[Godsend]

Especially when he cites six attacks and three maxed out stats. I'm just saying if versatility got things banned a lot of stuff would have been gone a long time ago. Also, Iron Tail is awful on just about everything.

 

[Ununhexium]

Especially when he cites six attacks and three maxed out stats. I'm just saying if versatility got things banned a lot of stuff would have been gone a long time ago. Also, Iron Tail is awful on just about everything.

Hyrdeigon says hi :)

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Yeah the acrobatics set is pretty borke, it can just fire off a ridiculously strong flying stab while shitting on walls with knock off+taunt and recovering health with regenerator+u-turn, which also gives it momentum. 121 speed makes sure only scarfer users and aerodactyl can dare to revenge kill it while regenerator means it can and will outlast the opposition with ease. Tbh this has nothing to do with ''what set tornadus is using'', since the pure physical one is already good enough to wreck the tier.

 

[effyouzion]

Yeah the acrobatics set is pretty borke, it can just fire off a ridiculously strong flying stab while shitting on walls with knock off+taunt and recovering health with regenerator+u-turn, which also gives it momentum. 121 speed makes sure only scarfer users and aerodactyl can dare to revenge kill it while regenerator means it can and will outlast the opposition with ease. Tbh this has nothing to do with ''what set tornadus is using'', since the pure physical one is already good enough to wreck the tier.

Base 100 attack with no boosting item is ridiculously strong?

Any bulky water can switch in on that Torn-T for days. Sure he can u-turn out, but only if he predicts your switch correctly. Once he starts playing that prediction game, you can predict the u-turn and not switch your water in, avoiding the chip damage. Or better yet just use Amoom/Slowbro and laugh at the chip damage in the first place.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Flying is the best stab in the tier, thats why staraptor got banned and thats why tornadus can literally spam it, hence its ridiculously strong because there are very few things that arent 2hkoed or outright ohkoed by it and taunt+knock off will fuck over the ones that dont except rest talk ampharos and aerodactyl which is a ridiculous low poll of solid counters. Your bulky waters will lose their item, get taunted, and then uturned out to one of the million things that can take advantage of them, and the better part is that it doesnt matter if tornadus took a hit in the process at all because its recovering all its health in the process. You can argue that tornadus cant ko these specific pokemon by itself since they have regenerator too, but ask yourself, if they are losing their item and have their support moveset shut down everytime they come in on the bird, thus making them fodder for the other 5 mons on the opponent team who do you think that is at an advantage here?

 

[Machi]

Flying is the best stab in the tier, thats why staraptor got banned and thats why tornadus can literally spam it, hence its ridiculously strong because there are very few things that arent 2hkoed or outright ohkoed by it and taunt+knock off will fuck over the ones that dont except rest talk ampharos and aerodactyl which is a ridiculous low poll of solid counters. Your bulky waters will lose their item, get taunted, and then uturned out to one of the million things that can take advantage of them, and the better part is that it doesnt matter if tornadus took a hit in the process at all because its recovering all its health in the process. You can argue that tornadus cant ko these specific pokemon by itself since they have regenerator too, but ask yourself, if they are losing their item and have their support moveset shut down everytime they come in on the bird, thus making them fodder for the other 5 mons on the opponent team who do you think that is at an advantage here?

I think this is something to be considered about Tornadus-T he isn't just outright brute force or necessarily a sweeper in the purest sense of the word, though he does have access to a very good STAB and decent attack. It is just that he outright provides support opportunities and disruptions quite unlike any other mon the tier and unlike most regenerator mons he has very well balanced stats across complimented by some very handy resistances that flying type provides as well as speed to generally act first. I don't necessarily see him as an outright win condition the way sweepers are but I see him as having just enough support to pave the way for such win conditions as Smash highlights.

What is interesting here is that he can get away with his knock off support relatively unscathed compared to others simply because of regenerator. He just doesn't have very much risk in his usage considering what he brings to the table. To me he is a mix between offense and support characteristics is why I find him quite troublesome and very different from other mons suspected, he isn't just one or the other he is both.

Edit: Just to add looking at the calcs already posted it would be easy to simply say Torn-T is a master of none but... He doesn't exactly perform at least by UU standards in a mediocre manner when he opts to stretch himself thin. He can be capable of 2 OHKOes in himself against some of the bulkier mons in the tier given the opportunity and yeah flying spam.

 

[DiscoDucky]

He's just a fucking good Utility pivot with safe chip damage. Flying's a pretty decent defensive typing in this meta since it checks Fighting and Ground very well and he's the fastest Pokemon in the tier by far. The 121 Speed combined with Knock Off means he's guaranteed to neuter any pokemon that relies on items for damage (LO Wallbreakers, LO sweepers, Banders, AssVest). Tag that with a life orb and you get a pretty strong form of chip damage that can be easily healed off with Regenerator. If I had to pinpoint out one thing that makes it broken, I'd probably say that Knock Off is the dealbreaker here (or maybe regenerator idk). He's just fucking stupid and needs to go.

 

[Schpoonman]

Knock Off is not what makes Torn-T broken. It broke Bisharp, Crawdaunt, and Weavile (before DeoSharp took off in OU), but not Torn; you have Regenerator to thank for that.

 

[Stef0w]

I cant really see any reason not to use tornadus T, it absorbs knock off, never loses momentum, is fast as fuck, and hits like a truck.

It's only issue is being unable to hold an item, or having to rely on air slash.

 

[slated]

I agree with the stuff that's been said before, but also it's the perfect late-game winner; if you have no wish support or roost mega aerodactyl or slowbro or whatever bulky water with recovery, it can just wear down the opponent until the end, and outspeeds 99% of the non-scarfed pokemon in UU while being able to acrobatics/knock off/u-turn its way to victory.

 

[kokoloko]

you guys, as usual, are overplaying the irrelevant aspect of the suspect. tornadus's power level isn't even close to what makes it broken. the issue with tornadus is not its offensive prowess, it's not the fact that it can attack effectively (even that's debatable tbh) from both sides. in fact, it can't attack effectively from either side if you really think about it. base 100 atk is underwhelming and its main stab forces it to run no item. the special / AV set run either a 70 accuracy STAB or a 75 base power STAB.

that said, tornadus is by far the most broken suspect we've tested so far. why? because its the only pokemon in the history of the metagame that can so effectively play the role of a support/defensive pokemon early to mid-game while crippling the hell out of whatever switches into it with knock off, breaking stall with taunt, and maintaining momentum with u-turn. and after doing all that, it has outlasted all of its checks/counters, allowing it to to clean the fuck up late-game with acrobatics.

in short, fuck tornadus, i'm voting BL, but you guys are wrong about why.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Flying is the best stab in the tier, thats why staraptor got banned and thats why tornadus can literally spam it, hence its ridiculously strong because there are very few things that arent 2hkoed or outright ohkoed by it and taunt+knock off will fuck over the ones that dont except rest talk ampharos and aerodactyl which is a ridiculous low poll of solid counters. Your bulky waters will lose their item, get taunted, and then uturned out to one of the million things that can take advantage of them, and the better part is that it doesnt matter if tornadus took a hit in the process at all because its recovering all its health in the process. You can argue that tornadus cant ko these specific pokemon by itself since they have regenerator too, but ask yourself, if they are losing their item and have their support moveset shut down everytime they come in on the bird, thus making them fodder for the other 5 mons on the opponent team who do you think that is at an advantage here?

I don't know I think Fairy, Dark and Ice STAB are pretty good too.

To combat Tornadus-T which very often is used as a lead you can use something typically slower than it with a choice Scarf that has a move that can OHKO it. There are not too many options for this unfortunately and of course even if it works it seems very tactical and overtime it will be less effective sort of like how using Ambipom Beat Up to kill Froslass leads became slowly less effective or using Foul Play to kill DD Kingdra on Umbreon became slowly less effective on Pokemon Online last generation.

 

[effyouzion]

I still think Torn-T is good for the meta. Regenerator is offset by the stealth rocks weakness, his attacks aren't overly strong, and his speed gives people an answer for Alakazam. His usage is going to be really high, but I don't think he's over centralizing. The best way to take care of him (or at least neutralize him) is to use stealth rocks and predict well, which is pretty standard.

 

[Machi]

I still think Torn-T is good for the meta. Regenerator is offset by the stealth rocks weakness, his attacks aren't overly strong, and his speed gives people an answer for Alakazam. His usage is going to be really high, but I don't think he's over centralizing. The best way to take care of him (or at least neutralize him) is to use stealth rocks and predict well, which is pretty standard.

If things were that simple suspect tests would be a lot less complicated, hell Volcarona wouldn't even be a suspect if that were the case. Clearly there are costs and benefits that need to be accounted for.

 

[Ruffles]

Here I'll give an example of it's support

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 78-92 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 83-99 (25.7 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Just by hitting Raikou on the switch w/ Knock off and then U-turning out Raikou loses 49.9 - 59.2% of it's health. And Raikou is supposed to be a counter.

Tornadus-T does extreme well with support, it withers down threats for others to sweep, just like what Magnezone did in gen 5 OU.

252 SpA Tornadus-T Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise: 148-176 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 51-61 (14 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

54.8 - 65.4% with GK + U-turn without a boosting item.

While:

252+ SpA Blastoise Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 58-70 (19.3 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 118-140 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Regen heals that lol

The outcome?

+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 171-201 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 270-318 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Fletchinder becomes able to sweep late game without worrying on these 2 pokemon which usually stop a sweep even at +2.

The acro set also helps

252 Atk Tornadus-T Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 154-183 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 33-39 (9.1 - 10.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Your doing 51.8 - 61.6% to a Florges just by Acro + U-turn and then healing what Florges did to you thnx to Regen.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 32+ SpD Florges: 243-289 (67.5 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This thing becomes able to sweep late game.

The way I look at Torandus is that it comes in the game early / mid-game, pretty much wither down the whole team, and sweep/wallbreak with another party member.

NP Ape is a great teammate for Itemless Acro, while Fletch is also great for AV/LO Tornadus w/ Grass knot. Those are 2 from the many many many pokemon that extremely benefit just bu having Torn-T as a teammate.

Just like kokoloko said, this guys supporting ability is outstanding and that's why makes it broken.

 

[effyouzion]

If things were that simple suspect tests would be a lot less complicated, hell Volcarona wouldn't even be a suspect if that were the case. Clearly there are costs and benefits that need to be accounted for.

That's a completely different situation. Volcarona sweeps teams after 1 boost despite his rocks weakness. He's the definition of over centralizing because you need to use physical water or flying priority, which is NOT found naturally in UU, just to revenge him.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Volcarona was easily stopped by scarf nape, scarf shao, aerodactyl, goodra, blissey and the mere factor of simply having stealth rocks on the field which prevented it from setuping, not to mention that extreme speed and sucker punch could pick it off after some life orb recoil, in fact its vote among the council was extremely divided. Tornadus is a complete different monster as it requires zero support and in return hands out all the support in the world by crippling the hell out of almost everything that tries to stop it while never getting worn down.

 

[effyouzion]

Volcarona was easily stopped by scarf nape, scarf shao, aerodactyl, goodra, blissey and the mere factor of simply having stealth rocks on the field which prevented it from setuping, not to mention that extreme speed and sucker punch could pick it off after some life orb recoil, in fact its vote among the council was extremely divided. Tornadus is a complete different monster as it requires zero support and in return hands out all the support in the world by crippling the hell out of almost everything that tries to stop it while never getting worn down.

You can't say rocks stopped Volc from ever setting up and then also say Torn-T never gets worn down.

Regenerator heals just 8% per switch if rocks are up. It is very possible to wear down Torn-T.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Yeah no that is not a fair comparison. Volc and TornT are completely differemt cases lmao. Volc is a sweeper, it is taking down things and that 50% off from rocks, which means it gets prone to getting RK'd easily and/or having less LO usage. Torn is offensive support, when it is given a free switch into something it threatens (which it does to like 80% of the tier bc Flying is a good typing + his movepool having answers to most things in the tier lmao) something is getting Knock'd off/Taunted and if TornT has done its job or the matchup becomes unfavourable to Torn it just U-turns out and regen all that 25% from rocks ALL THE WHILE generating/preserving momentum. It rarely ever takes a hit and even if it does it'd be something that it shrugs off with ease thanks to bulk + regen and Knock Off taking off a boosting item.

Edit: At below, but you also have to account for the momentum TornT generates for its team, meaning rocks can be easily cleaned off your field as long as you pack a spinner/defogger

 

[effyouzion]

I'm not the one who compared Volc to Torn-T. I think that whole discussion is irrelevant.

I just want people to be consistent. If you think "Volcarona is okay because of rocks" then you can't complain about Torn-T's regenerator, because it is nullified by rocks. You will never get enough free switch ins to heal any significant amount of damage with regenerator if rocks are on the field.

 

[Schpoonman]

I think you're missing the point, effyouzion. Tornadus will very rarely be taking damage in the first place, and it will always be free to switch in on Rocks, unlike Volcarona. Tornadus is much faster without a boost and has better defensive stats to take stray hits. If Torn was 4x weak to Rocks like Volc than Rocks would keep him in check. But he is ALWAYS gaining HP back. There's a lot of Pokemon that eventually get beaten because they can't switch in on hazards (like Volcarona!) but that will never happen with Torn. So stop making the false equivalency with Vocarona, and stop exaggerating the effect Rocks have on Torn.

 

[Patrick1088]

how much longer do we think Torn-T test will last? I'm tired of Big Bird...