Resource RU Viability Ranking

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Corporal Levi said:
Hitmonlee will be switching into hazards every time on top of taking LO recoil with each Knock Off, leaving it to be worn down very quickly. In addition, it can switch into nearly nothing, meaning a Pokemon will often have to be sacrificed just for Hitmonlee to come in and Knock Off Doublade each time, so it can eventually spin, probably costing itself, all for Yanmega to come in at full health. Obviously this won't be the case for every match, but Hitmonlee only being able to do so little with Knock Off is definitely not in its favour.
Even though hazards are easier to remove now, the fact that gen 5 RU had significantly less checks to Yanmega is extremely important because it means that Yanmega was forced out less; by not being forced out as often, the entire basis of the most relevant argument against Yanmega, its weakness to Stealth Rock, was rendered much less effective. In gen 5, hazard removal support was more difficult, but more importantly, it was less necessary, so Yanmega was easily a S rank threat without the support, and therefore constituted for S rank because it simply didn't need as much support as it does now. Even among the new ways to remove hazards, Defog basically guarantees a death on your team if the opponent has a Braviary, and as shown with the calcs above, Hitmonlee's spinning capabilities usually aren't enough to get past Doublade.
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If you really hate Doublade run E-que on Hitmonlee, knock off + E-que kills Doublade:

252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 135-161 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Doublade: 208-247 (64.5 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

5th gen RU had a lot of more counters and checks to Yanmega than XY RU:

5th gen counters that XY don't have:

  • Aggron
  • Aerodactyl
  • Nidoqueen
  • Clefable
  • Klinklang
  • Manectric (unless bug buzz)
6th gen counters that BW don't have:

  • Bronzong
  • Registeel
  • Togetic
  • Aromatisse
  • Cobalion?
Yanmega also got a brand new partner in the form of Dugtrio who can trap most Yanmega's counters except Zong and Togetic who are pretty rare anyways. Finally Braviary isn't the most common Pokemon and CB variants (I guess you meant a "free" kill with a CB equiped) are even rarer because most people run CS set.
 
Earthquake is a pretty bad and situational option on Hitmonlee because it provides nothing really notable aside from Doublade, and Hitmonlee is strapped for moveslots anyways; it needs its High Jump Kick, Knock Off, Mach Punch, and Rapid Spin in order to function. Hitmonlee simply cannot afford to run EQ most of the time.

And I might as well correct you on the BW vs. XY comparison regarding Yanmega (ie a history lesson). Aerodactyl and Nidoqueen were not around in BW RU when Yanmega was running the tier, both were in fact UU at the time. Aerodactyl didn't drop until 2012 (ie when Krook left), and Nidoqueen didn't join RU until BW2. In addition, Klinklang is still available for use in this tier, it's just not that effective in this meta compared to BW. Hazard support was also not that hard in BW since Kabutops and Cryogonal were both good, although it was a little harder yes.

On the topic of Yanmega itself, it's probably okay in A+, it's a very lethal threat that you should definitely have an answer to; since Speed Boost sets clean weakened teams like it's no one's business, and the Specs set is an incredible breaker, but it needs a bit more support than an S Rank Pokemon to function since it needs hazard removal and depending on the set some things need to be either removed or weakened before it can wreck.

Sorry if this post isn't that good, I'm kind of tired right now but I wanted to get a few things straight.
 
yea but
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 258-304 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aggron: 306-360 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 232-274 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 234-276 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not one of the checks you listed could actually switch in to specs Yanmega's most common attack.
If it's the LO set in question -
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 112-133 (37 - 44%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 129-152 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aggron: 608-717 (176.7 - 208.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 179-213 (46.6 - 55.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 221-263 (56 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 192-227 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 101-120 (38.5 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 231-273 (88.1 - 104.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Keep in mind that Hidden Power was 70 base power.
Nidoqueen was the only poke that could actually switch in on Bug Buzz; Aggron and Klinklang had trouble checking Yanmega even if they switched in on protect.
I'm not sure about this, but were Nidoqueen and Yanmega ever in RU at the same time?
nvm thanks scrafty

compare these to
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 158-186 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 108-130 (29.6 - 35.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 222-262 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 133-157 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 79-94 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Doublade is also a valid check because it can switch into Bug Buzz once.

Braviary is very common on hyper offense teams that use hazards, whereas defensive teams will often have hard checks to Yanmega, like Registeel, anyway.
Yanmega indeed got Dugtrio, which is a brilliant partner to Yanmega and makes Yanmega even more threatening as a sweeper. However, it further constitutes as support.
 
ScraftyIsTheBest said:
And I might as well correct you on the BW vs. XY comparison regarding Yanmega (ie a history lesson). Aerodactyl and Nidoqueen were not around in BW RU when Yanmega was running the tier, both were in fact UU at the time. Aerodactyl didn't drop until 2012 (ie when Krook left), and Nidoqueen didn't join RU until BW2. In addition, Klinklang is still available for use in this tier, it's just not that effective in this meta compared to BW. Hazard support was also not that hard in BW since Kabutops and Cryogonal were both good, although it was a little harder yes.
On the topic of Yanmega itself, it's probably okay in A+, it's a very lethal threat that you should definitely have an answer to; since Speed Boost sets clean weakened teams like it's no one's business, and the Specs set is an incredible breaker, but it needs a bit more support than an S Rank Pokemon to function since it needs hazard removal and depending on the set some things need to be either removed or weakened before it can wreck.
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Sorry about Nidoqueen and Aero confusion I thought both dropped sooner to RU bad memory on my part. Kabutops and Cryogonal are still RU and Kabutops even got a new toy for ghost types in the form of Knock Off sure Doublade and M-Banette are grest spinblockers but the lack of reliable recovery helps a lot.

Corporal Levi said:
yea but
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 258-304 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aggron: 306-360 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 232-274 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 234-276 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not one of the checks you listed could actually switch in to specs Yanmega's most common attack.
If it's the LO set in question -
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 112-133 (37 - 44%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 129-152 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aggron: 608-717 (176.7 - 208.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 179-213 (46.6 - 55.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 221-263 (56 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 192-227 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 101-120 (38.5 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 231-273 (88.1 - 104.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Keep in mind that Hidden Power was 70 base power.
Nidoqueen was the only poke that could actually switch in on Bug Buzz; Aggron and Klinklang had trouble checking Yanmega even if they switched in on protect.
I'm not sure about this, but were Nidoqueen and Yanmega ever in RU at the same time?
nvm thanks scrafty

compare these to
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 158-186 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 108-130 (29.6 - 35.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 222-262 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 133-157 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 79-94 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Doublade is also a valid check because it can switch into Bug Buzz once.

Braviary is very common on hyper offense teams that use hazards, whereas defensive teams will often have hard checks to Yanmega, like Registeel, anyway.
Yanmega indeed got Dugtrio, which is a brilliant partner to Yanmega and makes Yanmega even more threatening as a sweeper. However, it further constitutes as support.
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Your calcs are flawled, you are using offensive sets for BW pokes (lol 0 SPDef Clefable) while using specially defensive sets (who the hell uses 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zong) sure BW Yanmega was far more broken than XY Yanmega but it doesn't mean that getting rid of hazards was easier. I feel that the discussion is not going anywere and the same arguments are being made so if anybody has anything else to say about Yanmega other than its x4 weakness to SR please say it if not talk about other Pokemon or don't post anything.
 
Sorry to interrupt all the Yanmega discussion but i have a proposal to make atm.

I'd like to move Shiftry up from B- rank to B rank

At first i somewhat doubted Shiftry's potential, but after using it quite a bit i think this move is pretty justified: Shiftry actually performed pretty well: much better than i expected it to. Anyways, Shiftry's a pretty solid defog mon in the current metagame imo. It has much more offensive presence than Gligar, Golbat, Togetic, and even Skuntank for sure, making it a much better fit for offensive/bulky offensive teams (this also means Braviary has to think twice switching in, since Knock Off+Sucker Punch easily KOs!), having a Knock Off and Sucker Punch a bit stronger than Naive Zoroark's to boast (don't even try to argue that Shiftry is weak, if physically based Zoroark can function effectively with slightly less, so can Shiftry imo), as well as a powerful Leaf Storm to hit things such as Rhyperior and Alomomola super hard. On top of this, it has great offensive synergy with some of the Pokemon that need Stealth Rock removed most: Moltres and Delphox. Both of these Pokemon have trouble with bulky Water-types, most notably Slowking, while Shiftry has a pretty easy time taking advantage of them to get free attacks/defogs off (a good matchup vs Rhyperior doesn't hurt either tbh). This is especially notable given the fact that because Moltres and Delphox have very few safe switch ins bar Slowking, a player using either one can see a switch into king from a mile away, giving you tons of double switches to take advantage of. In return, Moltres and Delphox can really help out against the bulky Grass-types, Emboar, Cobalion, Virizion (watch out for Stone Edge on those two), Aromatisse, and Escavalier that defog Shiftry tends to draw out. Outside of simply being an offensive defog user, SD Shiftry has potential too imo. It might recieve some competition from SD zoroark, but the ability to break through Alomomola and Aromatisse at +2 as well some extra resistances granted by its Grass-type might give it enough of a niche to stand out there.

TL;DR Shiftry is a solid defog user, works much better for offensive teams than every other Defogger in RU, can't be blocked by Doublade like Hitmonlee and Kabutops, and smacks Braviary trying to switch into Defog hard with Knock Off, and most importantly pairs well with some of the Pokemon that need its Defog support most, such as Moltres and Delphox, all while being a significant offensive threat itself, and i think that's enough to justify a move to B rank.

Lastly, heres a replay showing Shiftry functioning effectively as an offensive Pokemon, it didn't Defog in this game, but i never really needed to. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-137293971
 
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yea shiftry + moltres core is super threatening to a boatload of team archetypes rn, i wouldn't be opposed even to b+ for shiftry tbh

also, can we talk about maybe moving dragalge down from b?
i don't really see what it offers in terms of synergy for balance and it's just too weak with adaptability unreleased. can't think of a situation where i'd want to use it as a tspikes absorber over drape or amoong tbh.
 
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Molk said:
Sorry to interrupt all the Yanmega discussion but i have a proposal to make atm.

I'd like to move Shiftry up from B- rank to B rank

At first i somewhat doubted Shiftry's potential, but after using it quite a bit i think this move is pretty justified: Shiftry actually performed pretty well: much better than i expected it to. Anyways, Shiftry's a pretty solid defog mon in the current metagame imo. It has much more offensive presence than Gligar, Golbat, Togetic, and even Skuntank for sure, making it a much better fit for offensive/bulky offensive teams (this also means Braviary has to think twice switching in, since Knock Off+Sucker Punch easily KOs!), having a Knock Off and Sucker Punch a bit stronger than Naive Zoroark's to boast (don't even try to argue that Shiftry is weak, if physically based Zoroark can function effectively with slightly less, so can Shiftry imo), as well as a powerful Leaf Storm to hit things such as Rhyperior and Alomomola super hard. On top of this, it has great offensive synergy with some of the Pokemon that need Stealth Rock removed most: Moltres and Delphox. Both of these Pokemon have trouble with bulky Water-types, most notably Slowking, while Shiftry has a pretty easy time taking advantage of them to get free attacks/defogs off (a good matchup vs Rhyperior doesn't hurt either tbh). This is especially notable given the fact that because Moltres and Delphox have very few safe switch ins bar Slowking, a player using either one can see a switch into king from a mile away, giving you tons of double switches to take advantage of. In return, Moltres and Delphox can really help out against the bulky Grass-types, Emboar, Cobalion, Virizion (watch out for Stone Edge on those two), Aromatisse, and Escavalier that defog Shiftry tends to draw out. Outside of simply being an offensive defog user, SD Shiftry has potential too imo. It might recieve some competition from SD zoroark, but the ability to break through Alomomola and Aromatisse at +2 as well some extra resistances granted by its Grass-type might give it enough of a niche to stand out there.

TL;DR Shiftry is a solid defog user, works much better for offensive teams than every other Defogger in RU, can't be blocked by Doublade like Hitmonlee and Kabutops, and smacks Braviary trying to switch into Defog hard with Knock Off, and most importantly pairs well with some of the Pokemon that need its Defog support most, such as Moltres and Delphox, all while being a significant offensive threat itself, and i think that's enough to justify a move to B rank.

Lastly, heres a replay showing Shiftry functioning effectively as an offensive Pokemon, it didn't Defog in this game, but i never really needed to. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-137293971
Click to expand...

TL;DR but good points (since its molk). Shiftry is a great defog user. Unlike most defog users (flying types), lightning type moves aren't super effective.
 
I think Sawk should be put on the list. Sawk, choice banded Sawk in particular, is a massive threat to a lot of RU teams. Sawk has the capability to OHKO almost every offensive threat in the tier, and boasts decent speed as well. Hitting a nice 383 attack, Sawk is a powerhouse. Another thing benefiting Sawk is its abilities-- sturdy and mold breaker. With sturdy, Sawk can live any hit, such as from Delphox, Braviary, or Sigilyph, and OHKO in return. With mold breaker, Sawk can bypass Weezing, which is its primary counter. Sawk's power rivals Hitmonlee, only doing about 5-10% less than lee's HJK. Although Hitmonlee seems superior, Sawk has its merit in comparison to hitmonlee. For one, the extra power on knock off is pretty noticable. As Sawk has a higher attack stat than Hitmonlee, and will be running a choice band rather than a life orb, it's able to gets 2hkos where Hitmonlee can't, primary examples being Doublade and Cofagrigus, both of which Sawk 2hko's most of the time, and Hitmonlee can't. Also, Sawk has ice punch to neuter Gligar, debatably the best Hitmonlee counter in the tier. Although Hitmonlee has a clear niche superior to Sawk's, namely rapid spin and mach punch, I think Sawk fits a unique role on teams. It's able to break walls effectively with perfect coverage (close combat, knock off, ice punch, eq/poison jab), its speed stat is pretty good for RU, and its ability lets it live any single hit. For these reasons, I think Sawk should be at least a B rank pokemon.
 
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Omfuga216 said:
I think Sawk should be put on the list. Sawk, choice banded Sawk in particular, is a massive threat to a lot of RU teams. Sawk has the capability to OHKO almost every offensive threat in the tier, and boasts decent speed as well. Hitting a nice 383 attack, Sawk is a powerhouse. Another thing benefiting Sawk is its abilities-- sturdy and mold breaker. With sturdy, Sawk can live any hit, such as from Delphox, Braviary, or Sigilyph, and OHKO in return. With mold breaker, Sawk can bypass Weezing, which is its primary counter. Sawk's power rivals Hitmonlee, only doing about 5-10% less than lee's HJK. Although Hitmonlee seems superior, Sawk has its merit in comparison to hitmonlee. For one, the extra power on knock off is pretty noticable. As Sawk has a higher attack stat than Hitmonlee, and will be running a choice band rather than a life orb, it's able to gets 2hkos where Hitmonlee can't, primary examples being Doublade and Cofagrigus, both of which Sawk 2hko's most of the time, and Hitmonlee can't. Also, Sawk has ice punch to neuter Gligar, debatably the best Hitmonlee counter in the tier. Although Hitmonlee has a clear niche superior to Sawk's, namely rapid spin and mach punch, I think Sawk fits a unique role on teams. It's able to break walls effectively with perfect coverage (close combat, knock off, ice punch, eq/poison jab), its speed stat is pretty good for RU, and its ability lets it live any single hit. For these reasons, I think Sawk should be at least a B rank pokemon.
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I'm more comfortably with B-. Banded Sawk hits stupidly hard on anything that comes in on it's STAB or one of it's coverage moves. The problem with that is, it's Choiced. Sawk is prone to being walled if using the wrong coverage move as spamming Close Combat is hard with popular ghost types such as Doublade, Mega-Banette, and Cofagrigus running amok. Even if you do go for Knock Off, what happens if you over predict and you end up hitting something resistant to Dark-Moves or worse, a justified user. You also get troubled with popular revenge killers such as Fletchinder, Scarfed Delphox, and ect. You have to be very careful using Sawk as a prediction can lead to an important OHKO/2HKO or a very unforgiving missplay. You might think that it's comparable to Exploud because both hit extremely hard and seem to break walls. Unlike Sawk, Exploud has fewer complete Counters, has scrappy, has a better coverage selection, and can do things that Sawk fails to do without hazard support such as breaking up regenerator cores. It's a good example of a pokemon that has a lot of potential but the environment for it is not forgiving.
 
Sawk is cool, but With an array of already fantastic Fighting types like Hitmonlee, Gurdurr, Cobalion, Emboar, Virizion and Gallade, Sawk has problems to stand out. Hitmonlee and Emboar make better banders IMO, With Hitmonlees banded reckless HJK 2HKOing just about everything not named Granbull. Gurdurr has way better defenses and Drain+Mach to fuck with most physical treaths. The remaining 4 all have a secondary STAB that helps them defeat some counters (Cobalion has Iron head for Faires, Gallade has Psycho cut for weezing etc). What im trying to say is that I see little reason to use Sawk over other fighting types in RU. I believe (theorymon) that it should be ranked around C
 
On Sawk: C or C+ seems fine for me, considering C rank is mostly meant for mons that have a niche, but are for the most part overshadowed by something else. Sawk is such an example, only differentiating itself from Hitmonlee in its ability to break past a few things that Hitmonlee struggles with. Generally, Lee's ability to spin, switch up moves and pick off offensive threats with Mach Punch is preferred, but Sawk does fulfill a niche for those who need something that breaks walls more easily. In that regard, Sawk deserves C+ imo

Supporting Alomomola to S, for reasons already stated. Walls a vast amount of threats, pairs very well with other walls, passes HUGE Wishes. Stall wouldn't be the same without this sunfish.

A few more suggestions:

Delphox to A+. I feel that Delphox, while still a very effective mon in this meta, isn't outstanding enough anymore to be S. The rise of mons like Doublade and Zoroark means that Delphox is more commonly revenge killed by supereffective priority attacks. Furthermore, it's not the be all end all stallbreaker that it used to be with LO + CM, because while nothing can really switch in on it safely, stall nowadayscommonly runs things that can easily pick it off, like Doublade, Scarf Drapion or Skuntank. Due to its reputation no one is going to build a good stall team without keeping Delphox in mind, meaning that it can't come in and annihilate them. Sticky Web is also a huge dump on Delphox, for it needs its speed to be effective. Overall, I feel like Delphox is a great mon, but the meta has turned against it and therefor I suggest a drop.

Zoroark to S. Zoroark is one of the biggest mindfucks in the meta atm. Not only can it disguise as something else and then surprise the switchin, but even if you do know that you're up against a Zoroark rather than, say, a Hitmonlee, you still don't know what set it is. Between Specs, Scarf, Mixed LO and SD, it can turn a lot of checks and counters to one set into a complete liability because he's running something else. Thanks to Sucker Punch, not even Scarfers are safe, while a Hitmonlee dies to a +2 Sucker Punch, meaning SD can annihilate this potential check. Its coverage hits everything too: I can't stress enough how scary it is to switch something in on a Zoroark because nothing can be sure that it can live to tell the story. The only real downside to Zoroark is that it is extremely frail, meaning you can't really switch it in with ease, but the same goes for so many top tier threats and Zoroark certainly has the means to compensate for it frailty. Therefor, it should be S rank imo.

That's all for now.
 
Robert Alfons said:
On Sawk: C or C+ seems fine for me, considering C rank is mostly meant for mons that have a niche, but are for the most part overshadowed by something else. Sawk is such an example, only differentiating itself from Hitmonlee in its ability to break past a few things that Hitmonlee struggles with. Generally, Lee's ability to spin, switch up moves and pick off offensive threats with Mach Punch is preferred, but Sawk does fulfill a niche for those who need something that breaks walls more easily. In that regard, Sawk deserves C+ imo

Supporting Alomomola to S, for reasons already stated. Walls a vast amount of threats, pairs very well with other walls, passes HUGE Wishes. Stall wouldn't be the same without this sunfish.

A few more suggestions:

Delphox to A+.

Zoroark to S.

That's all for now.
Click to expand...

Supporting these two moves.

Delphox is indeed good but not as threatening as it used to be. The things it beat have moved out or declined in usage and new threats have risen, some of which check Delphox with ease. This is even further exposed by Sticky Web, as Delphox is frail and speed was one of her key niches in the meta.

Zoroark is also really good, disguising as Braviary or Cobalion and then beating the shit out of Rhyperior or Gastrodon with a Grass Knot is funny. It can even come in disguised as an Alomomola and the like and scare out the opposing threat.

Next up I'd like to suggest a move of my own, which is Swellow to B- or B
I started to use Swellow lately and it hasn't let me down yet. Guts boosted Facade nukes shit 85 base attack seems unimpressive at first sight for a sweeper but when you combine this with Guts and facade, every offensive mon gets One-Shotted by this thing. It also isn't hampered by Sticky Web, which is great right now.
However, where Swellow fares great against Offensive teams, it struggles against Defensive teams, especially since Rhyperior, Registeel and Alomomola are solid mons right now. Not only that but the fact that it relies on status to do damage severly limits it's livespan and with proper predictions it can be stalled out rather easily.

tl;dr Swellow is powerful and fast, beats offense but is easily worn down and struggles vs defensive teams.

EDIT: O right I forgot to mention that Swellow actually has a legit Specs Set, which can surprise something like PhysDef Amoonguss or Alomomola with Boomburst, and can even 2HKO Rhyperior with HP grass and proper predicts
 
While I think Delphox is seemingly a bit underwhelming in the current meta, I'd like to point out a few things. Firstly, the things that supposedly stop it can't switch in at all, all of them taking massive damage or getting KOd outright by a Fire-type STAB move. Furthermore, SubCM exists and puts these things on the spot. Secondly, bar stuff like Allomomola and Slowking (although the former is set up bait for SubCM and the latter can be Pursuit trapped), most Stall teams still get roasted by its CM set as it provides great coverage in its STAB moves alone which in conjuction with Grass Knot is resisted by very few things (like opposing Delphox, lol). Finally, regarding SW, the same can be said for every single fast but frail offensive threat ever. Why this should be an extra large issue for Delphox (after you nominate Zoroark, who has the same issues with Sticky Web) is not exactly apparent to me. And even so, in all likelihood, the best SW setter in the tier, Shuckle, is going to get banned soon enough, making SW much less of an issue.

Not saying I think Delphox isn't feeling a bit overrated, but it's more of a adaption of the tier towards Delphox, as the counters and check have just become more common, so it is less effective, but this just means it needs support regarding Pursuiting things like Slowking and such, which were already recommended to begin with. And I think the meta is going to change (for the better) with Shuckle gone and SW offense taking a massive hit, so I'd wait and see what those changes mean for Delphox.
 
Ningildo said:
While I think Delphox is seemingly a bit underwhelming in the current meta, I'd like to point out a few things. Firstly, the things that supposedly stop it can't switch in at all, all of them taking massive damage or getting KOd outright by a Fire-type STAB move. Furthermore, SubCM exists and puts these things on the spot. Secondly, bar stuff like Allomomola and Slowking (although the former is set up bait for SubCM and the latter can be Pursuit trapped), most Stall teams still get roasted by its CM set as it provides great coverage in its STAB moves alone which in conjuction with Grass Knot is resisted by very few things (like opposing Delphox, lol). Finally, regarding SW, the same can be said for every single fast but frail offensive threat ever. Why this should be an extra large issue for Delphox (after you nominate Zoroark, who has the same issues with Sticky Web) is not exactly apparent to me. And even so, in all likelihood, the best SW setter in the tier, Shuckle, is going to get banned soon enough, making SW much less of an issue.

Not saying I think Delphox isn't feeling a bit overrated, but it's more of a adaption of the tier towards Delphox, as the counters and check have just become more common, so it is less effective, but this just means it needs support regarding Pursuiting things like Slowking and such, which were already recommended to begin with. And I think the meta is going to change (for the better) with Shuckle gone and SW offense taking a massive hit, so I'd wait and see what those changes mean for Delphox.
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Don't forget that Zoroark gets Sucker Punch to bypass the Sped Drop if played correctly, whereas Delphox has no priority at all.
 
I agree for Shiftry to B rank (i was the one who brought it up to B- rank hurhur). Its niche is easily unmatched as an offensive defogger except by like, Skuntank or Braviary. The former is an ok defogger but lacks the offensive presence Shiftry brings with Knock Off + Leaf Storm, and the latter is weak to SR. Even with Shiftry's shit defenses (90/60/60) it's got a pretty damn good typing that allows it to easily switch into some specific threats in offensive teams, and taking out the water-types for Moltres/Delphox is huge. It synergizes really well with those two. I'm glad it's finally been discovered, as I've been using the Moltres/Delphox + Shiftry core for months now lol.

Also agree for Delphox down to A+ and Zoroark up to S. Seeing Zoroark in team preview itself is a threat, as you'll never know who it'll disguise as. It's versatile as fuck with like 4 different sets in specs, mixed, SD, and NP, and they're all pretty solid from my experience.

Delphox on the other hand, while I was one of the people who wanted it in S-rank, can see dropping down to A+ simply because of the rise of priority from things like Fletchinder, Doublade, and Zoroark. It's still a fucking scary wallbreaker and thats why it would be in A+ rank rather than any lower.
 
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I can support Shiftry to B, I've been a fan since the beginning. STAB Knock Off is a powerful force with a base 100 fully invested Atk, esp combined with a base 80 priority move. It also matches well against the premier defiant user Braviary, hitting it with knock off on the switch-in and threatening a KO with sucker punch. Leaf Storm is a great nuke, always threatening to force out rhyperior. With the pressure it brings offensively, Shiftry often does it's job as a defogger. Soooo yeah it fits B rank well imo, "properly filling it's niche."

I also agree with moving Zoro to S, due to it's incredible versatility, great stats, stellar movepool, and unique ability. With the same STAB Knock Off + Sucker Punch combo as Shiftry, and 105/120 mixed attacking stats combined with a movepool that includes grass knot, flamethrower, and dark pulse/night daze, it would be lethal without it's calling card ability. Zoro is a metagame-defining threat atm, and deserving of S.

I'd have to say Delphox should stay at S, because it can "perform multiple roles effectively." With Scarf, Specs, and LO CM all in it's wheelhouse, Delphox is a constant threat to look out for. It's only flaws are a susceptibility to sticky web (just one playstyle so not enough reason to bump it down imo) and a weakness to Sucker Punch. LO Calm Mind kicks stall's butt, so every stall team must plan for Delphox. Because the meta has adapted aroun Delphox doesn't bump it down on the rankings imo, just like how everyone plans for Rhyperior and it's S. Sooo yeah Delphox should stay put.
 
Nominating Ferroseed to B- Rank. Ferroseed has a ton of support options like hazards, Leech Seed, and paralysis, compounded with high bulk with Eviolite and only two weaknesses (you're not supposed to stay in on Delphox), and can completely shut down Sharpedo. It's good in stall and balance (don't use it in HO as it's slow, use Shuckle/Accelgor in HO) for being able to help take attacks that scare other defensive mons as well as helping teammates set up a sweep.

(Also Linoone could use some discussion on where to rank it, I'd say D)
 
C Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

I think that anywhere in c-rank is perfectly fine as this description is basically Linoone in a nutshell. As for ferroseed it's a really good spikestacker and pivot with it's godly typing. The fire weakness and prevelance of knock off really knocked it down from it's perch in the generation transition but it is a good mon nonetheless and would be good in b- or c+ rank.
 
not so much a fan of Yanmega going S rank. Simply because, yes it is a devastating, but each set has different pros and cons, ones that are easily exploitable.

Tinted Lens hits hard, but Yanmega falls to anything that can outspeed it, or tank the hit and retaliate, which isn't hard with Yanmega's paper thin defenses.

Speed Boosts has to rely on Life Orb to come even slightly close to the power that the Tinted Lens sets can produced. It'll clearly be the fastest thing on the field, but it means nothing when it can be walled to death by the likes of Registeel, Aromatisse, etc..
Not to mention, Yanmega doesn't appreciate recoil.

And let's not even get started on the SR weakness..
 
Raheim said:
Tinted Lens hits hard, but Yanmega falls to anything that can outspeed it, or tank the hit and retaliate, which isn't hard with Yanmega's paper thin defenses.
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"Paper thin defenses" is a poor description of Yanmega's bulk. It's got 86/86/56 defenses, while yes the SpD sucks ass, the Def is rather good for such an offensive mon and with it's bug/flying typing it x4 resists mach punch and has good bulk that lets it survive other priority hits like sucker punch and even weak ice shards from specially-based mega abomasnow easily:

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 165-196 (52.5 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 126-150 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 73-87 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 70.3% chance to 4HKO
 
well, I would'nt run to a physical way of taking out Yanmega anyways, since it still is Bug/Flying

eh...I guess paper thin was a poor word
 
Raheim said:
not so much a fan of Yanmega going S rank. Simply because, yes it is a devastating, but each set has different pros and cons, ones that are easily exploitable.

Tinted Lens hits hard, but Yanmega falls to anything that can outspeed it, or tank the hit and retaliate, which isn't hard with Yanmega's paper thin defenses.

Speed Boosts has to rely on Life Orb to come even slightly close to the power that the Tinted Lens sets can produced. It'll clearly be the fastest thing on the field, but it means nothing when it can be walled to death by the likes of Registeel, Aromatisse, etc..
Not to mention, Yanmega doesn't appreciate recoil.

And let's not even get started on the SR weakness..
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I agree that it does not deserve a rank because unless you run giga drain hazard support is imperative. Having the highest hp of all bug types(I think) by no means makes it frail as it has the bulk to take a few hits. Also I'd like to mention that little if anything likes switching into the tinted lens set because with good enough prediction you dent every practical switchin. So I guess I'm on the fence about yanmegas rank. So I'm fine either way. Not even gonna discuss speed boost because compared to specs it is not very good. Also it is wrecked by fletch which is a problem.
 
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