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Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)
- Thread starter Molk
- Start date
- Status
probably blametruth or some shit popularized it lol
I agree with this, Smogon should make an acupressure test, it is extremly relliant on luck and it can sweep good players like Professional with a single evasion boost (Drapion isn't a frail poke). I don't watch poketubers but if Blame Thuth is using sets as dirty as Restalk Acupressure and people are copying him, Smogon will sooner or later realize the bullshitnes (is that evev a word?) of the move.
That's a good point but remember that the evasion boost isn't 100 guarantee unlike other moves that fall under evasion clause like Minimize and Double Team
I just want to remind you that Acupressure Drapion poses absolutely no threat to any well built teams as Taunt or Roar (and Whirlwind) that this gen got buffed and can't miss iirc easily stop it and the Drapion users has to be incredibly lucky to pull out the correct boosts (pulling attack, speed and evasion in 3 turns has only a 0.5% chance of happening) and using Swords Dance (hell, even agility) is more beneficial in the long run. It is obvious that with incredible luck (and against teams without Roar, Taunt or Perish Song or Encore or whatever) Drapion can 6-0 win but brightpowder users have a similar chance of being effective too.
Now something more serious
Spiritomb @ Black Glasses
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Foul Play / Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
This Pokemon is great at the moment. With its combination of "utility" attacking moves, awesome typing, and Wil-o-Wisp Spiritomb can easily distrupt a lot of frail physical attackers that take massive damage from its Pursuit if they switch, fear the Burn if they stay in, and can be hit by Sucker Punch. Infiltrator Sucker Punch is a super reliable revenge killing move against frailer Substitute users that use it to "take" Sucker Punches from Zoroark and the like and Infiltrator Wisp is equally awesome to check SubBU Braviary and Gallade (and SUBSD Cobalion obviously). Not to mention STAB Foul Play that does a big chunk to a lot of bulky offensive mons and that it is the best offensive Hitmonlee check in the tier. Have you used Spiritomb yourself? If so, what sets?
That is given, however since I literally just built a team around Masquerain I only had one taunter, I missed 3 taunts, and by the time it hit he killed me.
The thing is, as soon as he got evasion it was gameover for me, taunt misses, and when he realizes I'm taunting he'll spam Knock Off until I die. That's why I think it's uncompetititve. Also I spam HO so I didn't have phazing moves.
oh and worst part of the game: he said gg at the end of the game [srsly wtf]
Anyways, I used this set and it was amazing, not only is good against HO but completely fucks up stall.
Cobalion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Magnet Rise
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 255-300 (47.7 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 189-223 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This set pretty much baits in Gligar or even Rhyperior, and then completely sets up on them and proceed to sweep the team.
It also sets up on other pokemons that it usually couldn't set up on: Drapion [w/o whirlwind], Dugtrio and Archeops [if u have magnet rise already], gastrodon [if u have lum], Tyrantrum, or simply anything relies on ground moves to hit cobalion.
oh and I want to note out that fletchinder and magneton have been used a lot more than usual, probably because people realized they're good because they're RU now
Professional2341 yeah I used SD Mag Rise Cobalion extensively during pre-round 1 and during round 1 and lass suspect and it was incredible. It uses its checks and counters and turns them into complete set up fodder, and those include things like Gligar, Rhyperior, Bronzong, offensive Drapion etc. and cockblocks Dugtrio from revenging it. It's a great sweeper.
Drapion can use Taunt instead of Sleep Tallk to block phazing moves, status and opposing taunts, remember that Drapion is a fast pokemon that can shut down phazers and taunters before they touch him. Another selling point of Acupressure Drapion is Battle Armor because once you get +2 Defenses it will be very hard for your opponent to kill you. I am not the kind of person who thinks pokemon is a competitive game but if we remove bullshit moves that require no skill and are 100% luck relliant like Double Team, Minimize and Acupressure, pokemon can get closer to the game that Smogon's philisophy tries to create.
'Nuff said..
Hey guys, let's ban a move that has a 1/7 chance to be potentially slightly annoying just because it swept me! This is honestly one of the dumbest things I've heard proposed in awhile, you guys really need to stop taking advantage of the "hey we can ban things to make this game less centralized and more fun" and turning it into "hey this thing scared me in team preview I want it gone". Running taunt over sleep talk leaves you a sitting duck for two turns, and it's not hard to bring in your phazer when he's asleep like that to eliminate the "threat". And if you don't run taunt, you can just get phazed. And another thing, Acupressure hasn't won any recent SPL games, nor has it won any big tournamments, nor has it topped the ladder that I'm aware of, so why are you guys so paranoid about it and thinking it's so huge? The minute someone tops the ladder with restalk acupressure drapion or w/e that actually did smething, I'll probably say that that guy has the luck of LuckItUp, but no way no how do I ever see this becoming a gigantic thing that horribly breaks the meta. Problem solved gg stop proposing dumb crap and let's move on, shall we?
I honestly don't think that an accupressure witch-hunt is all that unreasonable.
I have swept many a team with drapion. In a similar vein to moody, all it takes is a single evasion boost or a convienent defense boost to potentially create an unstoppable (battle armor) mon.
And, honestly, it sweeps far more often than it should. If you give it something like dual screen support, then it has even more of a chance.
While it may not win every game, it is still a complete-luck factor, so I can see justification for banning it on those grounds. Imo, it can't hurt to remove something like that from the meta.
Also fuckin confuse ray golbat smh
Also galbia
Taunt is rare. It may be nonexistant later in the game (because who predicts accu drapion?)
drapion frequently ends up as a last-mon for the purpose making roar and whirlwind useless (if they even exist on the enemy team).
And I don't understand your argument that drapion needs to get attack speed and evasion boosts in the first 3 turns.
It needs an evasion boost, a speed boost, an attack boost, or an approprate defense boost in the first 3 turns. And I can assure you that a max hp drapion can tank quite a few hits. Rest + sleep talk makes the process even easier, offering it more time to boost up. Add in dual screens, and drapion becomes a bit more reliable than it probably should be given how luck-based the strategy is.
It's practically a perfect abuser of of accupressure in the same vein that klefki was a perfect abuser of swagplay
But idrc about drapion because it's very rarely used. Since it was brought up, though, I may as well share my thoughts.
Also @ the "should sand attack leave the tier?" argument... yes, it ideally should, as should any evasion-based moves because that is the intended purpose of evasion clause. But again, idrc. Just throwing it out there. It's not like they would require a suspect test either, just a quick deliberation, then a quick ban. Once your jellicent looses to a sand attack sand slash, you will understand.
On the topic of zoroark, I think that the sd set is one of the absolute scariest things in RU rn. The issue with setup on mons like infernape or weavile is that they are too frail to obtain setup opportunities. Zoroark, on the other hand, will force a switch. Especially if your team is crafted to where both the disguise and zoroark itself would threaten the opposing mon. After a setup, it is practically gg bar a lucky sharpedo aqua jet or a healthy rhyperior or alo (ban alomomola pls). Sucker punch is unbelievably good at making sure that zoro doesn't take a hit.
Life orb mixed is almost as scary, simply because of how it can eliminate practically the entire tier with the proper move. This not only kos an opposing mon, it also has the potential to facilitate another mon's sweep by eliminating a counter.
I have swept many a team with drapion. In a similar vein to moody, all it takes is a single evasion boost or a convienent defense boost to potentially create an unstoppable (battle armor) mon.
And, honestly, it sweeps far more often than it should. If you give it something like dual screen support, then it has even more of a chance.
While it may not win every game, it is still a complete-luck factor, so I can see justification for banning it on those grounds. Imo, it can't hurt to remove something like that from the meta.
Also fuckin confuse ray golbat smh
Also galbia
Taunt is rare. It may be nonexistant later in the game (because who predicts accu drapion?)
drapion frequently ends up as a last-mon for the purpose making roar and whirlwind useless (if they even exist on the enemy team).
And I don't understand your argument that drapion needs to get attack speed and evasion boosts in the first 3 turns.
It needs an evasion boost, a speed boost, an attack boost, or an approprate defense boost in the first 3 turns. And I can assure you that a max hp drapion can tank quite a few hits. Rest + sleep talk makes the process even easier, offering it more time to boost up. Add in dual screens, and drapion becomes a bit more reliable than it probably should be given how luck-based the strategy is.
It's practically a perfect abuser of of accupressure in the same vein that klefki was a perfect abuser of swagplay
But idrc about drapion because it's very rarely used. Since it was brought up, though, I may as well share my thoughts.
Also @ the "should sand attack leave the tier?" argument... yes, it ideally should, as should any evasion-based moves because that is the intended purpose of evasion clause. But again, idrc. Just throwing it out there. It's not like they would require a suspect test either, just a quick deliberation, then a quick ban. Once your jellicent looses to a sand attack sand slash, you will understand.
On the topic of zoroark, I think that the sd set is one of the absolute scariest things in RU rn. The issue with setup on mons like infernape or weavile is that they are too frail to obtain setup opportunities. Zoroark, on the other hand, will force a switch. Especially if your team is crafted to where both the disguise and zoroark itself would threaten the opposing mon. After a setup, it is practically gg bar a lucky sharpedo aqua jet or a healthy rhyperior or alo (ban alomomola pls). Sucker punch is unbelievably good at making sure that zoro doesn't take a hit.
Life orb mixed is almost as scary, simply because of how it can eliminate practically the entire tier with the proper move. This not only kos an opposing mon, it also has the potential to facilitate another mon's sweep by eliminating a counter.
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Please dont.
Is there honestly a single reason to have acupressure in RU? What does it add to the tier?
There are certainly reasons as to why it should leave the tier.
That's at least grounds for consideration
Little kokoloko-esque quickbans can improve the tier just a teensy bit without shaking thing up a bunch or requiring a large effort
Alright since i'm too lazy to make a new np thread i'm just gonna repurpose this one for a while (at least until the next suspect test!).
Things to discuss in the repurposed thread include new metagame trends you've seen on both the ladder and RUgged Mountain, underrated Pokemon and sets that you think will work effectively in the new metagame, how Shuckle being removed has affected Sticky Web Offense and the metagame in general, and potential suspect tests to take place in the next few weeks!
To try and kick off some non acupressure discussion (you've gotta be kidding me...). What do you guys think of Zoroark in the current metagame? Zoroark's been a powerful offensive threat in the metagame for quite a while, having quite excellent offensive stats, a great movepool with all the coverage it needs to threaten the majority of the tier, two great boosting moves in the form of Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, and excellent distruptive offensive options in Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and Knock Off. Lastly and most importantly, Zoroark has its signature ability in Illusion to work with, letting it masquerade as its teammates. This lets it function as an exceptionally effective lure, and also grants the boosting sets countless set up opportunities on "forced" switches.
So questions to answer:
How strong do you think Zoroark is in the current metagame?
What sets do you find work effectively on Zoroark?
What teammates work most effectively with Zoroark?
What do you use to check and counter Zoroark?
If you can do so at all, how do you attempt to tell Zoroark apart from its teammates, and if it successfully lures in one of your Pokemon, how do you make a comeback?
Things to discuss in the repurposed thread include new metagame trends you've seen on both the ladder and RUgged Mountain, underrated Pokemon and sets that you think will work effectively in the new metagame, how Shuckle being removed has affected Sticky Web Offense and the metagame in general, and potential suspect tests to take place in the next few weeks!
To try and kick off some non acupressure discussion (you've gotta be kidding me...). What do you guys think of Zoroark in the current metagame? Zoroark's been a powerful offensive threat in the metagame for quite a while, having quite excellent offensive stats, a great movepool with all the coverage it needs to threaten the majority of the tier, two great boosting moves in the form of Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, and excellent distruptive offensive options in Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and Knock Off. Lastly and most importantly, Zoroark has its signature ability in Illusion to work with, letting it masquerade as its teammates. This lets it function as an exceptionally effective lure, and also grants the boosting sets countless set up opportunities on "forced" switches.
So questions to answer:
How strong do you think Zoroark is in the current metagame?
What sets do you find work effectively on Zoroark?
What teammates work most effectively with Zoroark?
What do you use to check and counter Zoroark?
If you can do so at all, how do you attempt to tell Zoroark apart from its teammates, and if it successfully lures in one of your Pokemon, how do you make a comeback?
I gotta admit I haven't really played much post-Shuckle ban, but I did play a bit here and there and I noticed people using Ariados and Leavanny (and even Masquerain) to replace Shuckle on a Sticky Web team, and it simply isn't that effective. It's very easy killing both of them since they're pretty frail, and then using Defog or Rapid Spin pretty much removes Sticky Web permanently. They still use spinblockers like Doublade and Braviary to deter Defog, but thanks to no Stealth Rock (unlike Shuckle) they're not exactly as hard to deal with on any well-built team. I don't think Sticky Web poses a threat right now, and it seems to me like Shuckle was indeed the problem and not Sticky Web itself.
On the matter of Zoroark, I'll have to agree that it's pretty damn scary with those mixed offenses, decent speed tier, and good movepool consisting of all the STABs it could ever ask for in Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and Night Daze/Dark Pulse, and then some cool coverage moves like Flamethrower and Grass Knot. It's a good Pokemon to use along sweepers to lure their typical checks and counters thanks to Illusion mindgames, and it's Illusion ability gives it easy chances to setup with Swords Dance or Nasty Plot thanks to the switches it can force when disguised as the proper Pokemon, and a +2 Knock Off/Sucker Punch/Dark Pulse from Zoroark hurts. It's most threatening aspect, however, is how easy it force mindgames and lure specific threats to the team when disguised as something else, and then using coverage moves or Knock Off to get rid of them. Examples of this are disguising as Fletchinder to lure Rhyperior and KO it with Grass Knot, or Moltres/Delphox to lure Water-types like Slowking and Jellicent and KO them with Knock Off.
Moving on to answering Molk's questions in the post, I think Zoroark is a strong force to be reckoned with. You can't just underestimate a Pokemon with 105/120/105 attacking stats, especially when it has access to a wonderful movepool. It's one of the best priority users with its access to Sucker Punch, and its speed is rather good, letting it outspeed a lot of things, while sadly missing the jump on some Pokemon like Cobalion and Virizion. That, combined with its access to set up moves and mindgames with Illusion easily grants it a spot as a top-tier threat, and that's exactly why it's S-rank in the viability rankings right now.
I haven't used all of Zoroark's sets, but I've used Mixed with Knock Off, Grass Knot, Flamethrower, and Sucker Punch, and the Swords Dance set. Both of them were really, really good, especially the Swords Dance set, since it can find set up opportunities so easily when disguised as something else, and then it can proceed to fire off Life Orb-boosted +2 Knock Offs or Sucker Punches. What's even better is that thanks to its speed, it can't easily be dispatched by priority because it can carry its own in Sucker Punch, unlike other Pokemon like Delphox and Sharpedo, who easily die to them.
I've had most success pairing Delphox with Fire-type Pokemon and specifically, Delphox, Moltres, and Fletchinder. Since they're such strong Pokemon the opponent would almost never hesitate in sending out their regular checks and counters because it's not worth the risk; only to be surprised by a Swords Dance followed by a Knock Off or a straight up Knock Off/coverage move to get rid of said counter. Pairing it with some Pokemon that share the same move can also go a long way in even creating more mindgames, with Pokemon like Gallade etc. who typically also carry Knock Off. In short, pairing it with sweepers is most effective for its ability to lure in their checks & counters.
The best way of telling Zoroark apart from other Pokemon is by closely keeping note of the damage each Pokemon received so you won't be fooled when a 100% HP Zoroark comes into play. It's also best to have hazards on the field so the cover is blown if its disguised as a Pokemon that doesn't take neutral damage from Stealth Rock. Life Orb recoil can also help if the Zoroark is holding a Life Orb, since its easy to tell which Pokemon got LO recoil and which didn't, and therefore be able to tell if its a Zoroark or not.
Checking and countering Zoroark can be a bit tough since you'll never know what it'll disguise as, but once you do then it isn't as hard. For one, Aromatisse is pretty much a hard counter to any set Zoroark carries, so there's that. Then there are Cobalion and Virizion, who are faster but the former doesn't exactly like switching into Flamethrower (252 spa LO has a high chance of OHKOing) and so does the latter, but it's not OHKO'd at least. They're both faster and can easily OHKO with their STAB. Then there are Sharpedo and Speed Boost Yanmega, while Sharpedo takes quite a bit from Sucker Punch, it doesn't die and can easily revenge kill. Same goes to Yanmega. Choice Scarfers in general who don't die too quickly to Sucker Punch can revenge kill it too, and hazards can blow its cover.
In the end, I'm not sure how I feel about a suspect test for Zoroark, right now I'm kinda torn, so I'll have to wait until the actual suspect test to form an opinion on whether I want it banned or not.
edit: ok i just realized molk wasn't referring to a Zoroark suspect lol. Whatever, the post was mostly about Zoroark in general and not a potential Zoroark test :p
On the matter of Zoroark, I'll have to agree that it's pretty damn scary with those mixed offenses, decent speed tier, and good movepool consisting of all the STABs it could ever ask for in Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and Night Daze/Dark Pulse, and then some cool coverage moves like Flamethrower and Grass Knot. It's a good Pokemon to use along sweepers to lure their typical checks and counters thanks to Illusion mindgames, and it's Illusion ability gives it easy chances to setup with Swords Dance or Nasty Plot thanks to the switches it can force when disguised as the proper Pokemon, and a +2 Knock Off/Sucker Punch/Dark Pulse from Zoroark hurts. It's most threatening aspect, however, is how easy it force mindgames and lure specific threats to the team when disguised as something else, and then using coverage moves or Knock Off to get rid of them. Examples of this are disguising as Fletchinder to lure Rhyperior and KO it with Grass Knot, or Moltres/Delphox to lure Water-types like Slowking and Jellicent and KO them with Knock Off.
Moving on to answering Molk's questions in the post, I think Zoroark is a strong force to be reckoned with. You can't just underestimate a Pokemon with 105/120/105 attacking stats, especially when it has access to a wonderful movepool. It's one of the best priority users with its access to Sucker Punch, and its speed is rather good, letting it outspeed a lot of things, while sadly missing the jump on some Pokemon like Cobalion and Virizion. That, combined with its access to set up moves and mindgames with Illusion easily grants it a spot as a top-tier threat, and that's exactly why it's S-rank in the viability rankings right now.
I haven't used all of Zoroark's sets, but I've used Mixed with Knock Off, Grass Knot, Flamethrower, and Sucker Punch, and the Swords Dance set. Both of them were really, really good, especially the Swords Dance set, since it can find set up opportunities so easily when disguised as something else, and then it can proceed to fire off Life Orb-boosted +2 Knock Offs or Sucker Punches. What's even better is that thanks to its speed, it can't easily be dispatched by priority because it can carry its own in Sucker Punch, unlike other Pokemon like Delphox and Sharpedo, who easily die to them.
I've had most success pairing Delphox with Fire-type Pokemon and specifically, Delphox, Moltres, and Fletchinder. Since they're such strong Pokemon the opponent would almost never hesitate in sending out their regular checks and counters because it's not worth the risk; only to be surprised by a Swords Dance followed by a Knock Off or a straight up Knock Off/coverage move to get rid of said counter. Pairing it with some Pokemon that share the same move can also go a long way in even creating more mindgames, with Pokemon like Gallade etc. who typically also carry Knock Off. In short, pairing it with sweepers is most effective for its ability to lure in their checks & counters.
The best way of telling Zoroark apart from other Pokemon is by closely keeping note of the damage each Pokemon received so you won't be fooled when a 100% HP Zoroark comes into play. It's also best to have hazards on the field so the cover is blown if its disguised as a Pokemon that doesn't take neutral damage from Stealth Rock. Life Orb recoil can also help if the Zoroark is holding a Life Orb, since its easy to tell which Pokemon got LO recoil and which didn't, and therefore be able to tell if its a Zoroark or not.
Checking and countering Zoroark can be a bit tough since you'll never know what it'll disguise as, but once you do then it isn't as hard. For one, Aromatisse is pretty much a hard counter to any set Zoroark carries, so there's that. Then there are Cobalion and Virizion, who are faster but the former doesn't exactly like switching into Flamethrower (252 spa LO has a high chance of OHKOing) and so does the latter, but it's not OHKO'd at least. They're both faster and can easily OHKO with their STAB. Then there are Sharpedo and Speed Boost Yanmega, while Sharpedo takes quite a bit from Sucker Punch, it doesn't die and can easily revenge kill. Same goes to Yanmega. Choice Scarfers in general who don't die too quickly to Sucker Punch can revenge kill it too, and hazards can blow its cover.
In the end, I'm not sure how I feel about a suspect test for Zoroark, right now I'm kinda torn, so I'll have to wait until the actual suspect test to form an opinion on whether I want it banned or not.
edit: ok i just realized molk wasn't referring to a Zoroark suspect lol. Whatever, the post was mostly about Zoroark in general and not a potential Zoroark test :p
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That's how it all started in Weimar Republic and the rest is history.
Just to not let this post be deleted, I personally LOVE using Pursuit Zoroark with Suicide Lead Archeops. Especially against defensive threats like the stupid fish,
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np:
Theres a few reasons to not use Zoroark on any bulky offense / offensive team, probably the reason are because sinergy, Zoroark lacks of a defensive utility how frail he is with their 60/60/60 bulk overall, that means that almost everything is gonna HKO or 2HKO him plus Life Orb recoil is done, but this doesnt means neither that is less broken (see: offensive deoxys formes in ou).
Similar like Deo offensive formes is extremely versatile so almost every set can work well, specially the sd versions and mixed ones, still can use a choice specs, nasty plot and even a scarf set. This movepool option along with Illusion is what makes Zoroark broken in my opinion (probably most broken offensive mon that RU had ever). Their large movepool options and dark bluff already gives it a very limited number of checks like Cobalion, Virizion, Gligar, Alomomola, Registeel, Rhyperior (depending on their set of course) so the only reliable counters are a few like Aromatisse and Gurdurr.
Anyways, I dont think that their movepool + dark bluff is broken at all, the main problem with Zoroark is Illusion which is not about to be checked because is a different thing, the pokemon copied and Zoroark have complety different counters; a good example is Moltres + Zoroark (hide as moltres) vs opposite team with Slowking AV as check to Moltres so you get an easy kill by Zoroark in early on this case, also the opponent is gonna lost their best check for the original mon lol on this example he is gonna lose Moltres check. How you can handle that? In my opinion is not possible unless 1. you're a kamikaze 2. you're a divine with that crystal ball, mine does not work at least.
Some points to set: This example is not niche because you have the option to decide your strategy on the team preview with Zoroark so is up for you depending on the opponent team, the advantage will be up for you in any case. Almost any temmate is good for Zoroark, offensive ones usually have a good sinergy with Zoroark like using similar moves like Knock Off but also defensive ones are good because put less pressure on the opponent team when is really a scary Zoroark. You cant handle Zoroark with offense pressure because is really fast for RU base 105 + Sucker Punch for faster things with also the option of Sword Dance to break scarfers/faster mons.
Zoroark is the epitome of a lure thanks to large movepool + illusion + power.
l8ter
Theres a few reasons to not use Zoroark on any bulky offense / offensive team, probably the reason are because sinergy, Zoroark lacks of a defensive utility how frail he is with their 60/60/60 bulk overall, that means that almost everything is gonna HKO or 2HKO him plus Life Orb recoil is done, but this doesnt means neither that is less broken (see: offensive deoxys formes in ou).
Similar like Deo offensive formes is extremely versatile so almost every set can work well, specially the sd versions and mixed ones, still can use a choice specs, nasty plot and even a scarf set. This movepool option along with Illusion is what makes Zoroark broken in my opinion (probably most broken offensive mon that RU had ever). Their large movepool options and dark bluff already gives it a very limited number of checks like Cobalion, Virizion, Gligar, Alomomola, Registeel, Rhyperior (depending on their set of course) so the only reliable counters are a few like Aromatisse and Gurdurr.
Anyways, I dont think that their movepool + dark bluff is broken at all, the main problem with Zoroark is Illusion which is not about to be checked because is a different thing, the pokemon copied and Zoroark have complety different counters; a good example is Moltres + Zoroark (hide as moltres) vs opposite team with Slowking AV as check to Moltres so you get an easy kill by Zoroark in early on this case, also the opponent is gonna lost their best check for the original mon lol on this example he is gonna lose Moltres check. How you can handle that? In my opinion is not possible unless 1. you're a kamikaze 2. you're a divine with that crystal ball, mine does not work at least.
Some points to set: This example is not niche because you have the option to decide your strategy on the team preview with Zoroark so is up for you depending on the opponent team, the advantage will be up for you in any case. Almost any temmate is good for Zoroark, offensive ones usually have a good sinergy with Zoroark like using similar moves like Knock Off but also defensive ones are good because put less pressure on the opponent team when is really a scary Zoroark. You cant handle Zoroark with offense pressure because is really fast for RU base 105 + Sucker Punch for faster things with also the option of Sword Dance to break scarfers/faster mons.
Zoroark is the epitome of a lure thanks to large movepool + illusion + power.
l8ter
And to everybody who still thinks Sticky Web teams are good: Cinccino.
There's really no good way to get it up. Let's face it, web offense is doomed.
There's really no good way to get it up. Let's face it, web offense is doomed.
1. Zoro can play some serious mind games if used correctly. Having another team member that is neutral to Rocks and has Knock Off, Sucker Punch, or U-turn only adds to them. Even without it's tricky ability, Zoro's a powerhouse on its own. Excellent mixed attacking stats combined with a nice movepool make it a big threat.
2. Sets that can kill a variety of lured Pokemon. A mixed set, something like Sucker Punch / Flamethrower / Grass Knot / Knock Off, is quite effective at luring and killing stuff like Gastrodon.
3. Cobalion works well, as pointed out in your RU Core. Other than that, something that is neutral to Rocks, and knows a move that Zoroark commonly uses, such as Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Flamethrower, U-turn, and Dark Pulse.
4. Haven't run into too many Zoroark on the ladder, so it hasn't been a huge problem for me. If it was, Skuntank, Aromatisse, and the Hitmons answer it quite well.
5. If played right, there's almost no way to tell Zoro apart from another Pokemon. Sometimes it is blatantly obvious, but that's only when it's being foddered, or it's already been revealed. If your check/counter to [Pokemon A] has been lured in by Zoroark, then the real [Pokemon A] is free wreak havoc on your team. How to make a comeback? Unless you have an answer for [Pokemon A], you don't.
Well, first I'd like to say that Spikestacking offense is still ridiculously good in this metagame, albeit worse than it was before the Froslass ban. Accelgor and Omastar are both very efficient, with the latter being able to set up Stealth Rock as well. A core of Omastar / Accelgor + Sharpedo + Doublade + Hitmonlee (+ SR user such as Druddigon if using Accelgor), is still very effective, as it was in the Froslass metagame. Now, on to the topic of Zoroark. Zoroark is extremely threatening and is a major force in the current metagame. The fact is, it can disguise as Pokemon such as Moltres and make it too risky to switch in one's Slowking in an attempt to counter it. SD Zoroark is one of the behemoth's best sets, and thanks to an Illusion, setting up a Swords Dance is ridiculously easy. One can even switch in to one of Zoroark's counters, and simply disguise Zoroark as a Pokemon that threatens the counter out, and then proceed to wreak havoc on the opposition with a +2 Zoroark. Hidden Power Ice allows Zoroark to dismantle Gligar, which makes it even more threatening. Special Zoroark is also a capable threat, and is useful against Pokemon such as Doublade. Another move which is becoming more popular on Zoroark is Pursuit, which can be especially deadly, as it allows Zoroark to trap Pokemon such as Meloetta. Apart from the standard 50/50 that arises when using Pursuit or an attacking move against a Pokemon, Zoroark's Illusion ability makes it deadlier, as it can disguise as a threat that makes it more likely for the opponent to switch out. Entry hazards are very helpful in combating Zoroark, as the damage makes it easy to tell a Zoroark from something like a Moltres, but this is still an issue early game or if the hazards are Defogged away. Disguising Zoroark correctly based on one's team matchup can often be the difference between winning and losing, and the Pokemon is easily one of the largest threats in the metagame at this point.
MikeDawg said everything I think about Acupressure so let's move to Zoroark.
Zoroark is the most versatile Pokemon in the entire metagame and can easily go mixed, physical or special. The trait I like the most about Zoroark is his ability Illusion because, in hands of a good player, it can decimate your opponent's team. Back in 5th gen OU I ran with a great sucess an original core consisting of CB Zoroak + Latios. You basically lead with Zoroak disguised as Latios and kill the opposing T-tar / Steel type with a CB Low kick so I tried to do a similar core where Zoroark disguised as X pokemon to kill X pokemon's counters and I got this:
Zoroark is the most versatile Pokemon in the entire metagame and can easily go mixed, physical or special. The trait I like the most about Zoroark is his ability Illusion because, in hands of a good player, it can decimate your opponent's team. Back in 5th gen OU I ran with a great sucess an original core consisting of CB Zoroak + Latios. You basically lead with Zoroak disguised as Latios and kill the opposing T-tar / Steel type with a CB Low kick so I tried to do a similar core where Zoroark disguised as X pokemon to kill X pokemon's counters and I got this:
Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
Cobalion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
- Magnet Rise
Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- U-turn
- Air Slash
- Sleep Talk
Swords Dance is a move that both Zoroark and Cobalion get so most people think the real Cobalion is setting up a SD and proceed to switch into their Ghost Type or Delphox. After that you easily dent them with a super effective STAB knock off or sucker punch. It can also work in the opposite direction, you send Zoroark disguised as Cobalion when a fairy / steel type is out and scare it out setting up a SD in the process. Yanmega is there to deal with Fighting types that destroy this core but it also benefits from Zoroark for example you send Zoroark disguised as Yanmega and predict your opponent to switch into their Registeel or Doublade and smash them with a super effective attack making Yanmega's later sweep easier. Hazard removal in the form of Rapid Spin or Defog is imperative because the hazard damage Zoroark takes is different from the one Yanmega and Cobalion take. In conclusion, Zoroark is great in the hands of a good player who likes to risk and bluff and can take full advantage of his unique ability to score valuable kills.
The thing I really like (and fear from) Zoroark is its customizability with the mixed LO set. Sure, Knock Off and Sucker Punch are givens. But outside of this, you can use p. much whatever move you want to use depending on what your team struggles with or what you need Zoroark to beat. Have a Cobalion or Hitmonlee waiting in the wings? Watch as Gligar crumbles to HP Ice. Need to set up a Slurpuff? Use Zoroark to remove Steels and then shock the defensive switch-in with Memento to end the game. Can't stand that Rhyperior or Gastrodon that's keeping Jolteon from sweeping? Just use Grass Knot to watch them trip up and go down. Swords Dance sets can be used with Virizion and Cobalion very effectively while NP sets can be used very well with Mismagius. It's a grave offensive threat, but it's also frail af and nearly impossible to bring in except for after a KO or slow U-turn / Volt Switch.
Another thing I have noticed is how difficult it is to stop Specs Yanmega. Sure, it may not have many switch-in opportunities, and yes it's weak to Rocks, but you better pray if it gets in safely. If you lack Registeel, Togetic, Emboar (sort of) or Moltres (again, sort of) you're losing something. It's as simple as that. Specs Yanmega is an incredible force right now and very few Pokemon in the tier can avoid the 2HKO from it. While Sticky Web certainly made it stupid insane, it's still not a fun thing to deal with right now. Defensive teams are basically forced to run either Registeel or Togetic unless they want to lose a Pokemon every time Specs Yanemga comes in while offensive teams have to sac a mon every time it comes in due to Tinted Lens removing resistances, though Yanmega has a harder time switching in against offensive teams. 4x Mach Punch resistance is also huge considering Hitmonlee is a common revenger for offensive teams.
Another thing I have noticed is how difficult it is to stop Specs Yanmega. Sure, it may not have many switch-in opportunities, and yes it's weak to Rocks, but you better pray if it gets in safely. If you lack Registeel, Togetic, Emboar (sort of) or Moltres (again, sort of) you're losing something. It's as simple as that. Specs Yanmega is an incredible force right now and very few Pokemon in the tier can avoid the 2HKO from it. While Sticky Web certainly made it stupid insane, it's still not a fun thing to deal with right now. Defensive teams are basically forced to run either Registeel or Togetic unless they want to lose a Pokemon every time Specs Yanemga comes in while offensive teams have to sac a mon every time it comes in due to Tinted Lens removing resistances, though Yanmega has a harder time switching in against offensive teams. 4x Mach Punch resistance is also huge considering Hitmonlee is a common revenger for offensive teams.
Instead of talking about Zoroark. I decided to write something up about Druddigon.
Motion: This House Would would BAN druddigon from RU
Good evening ladies and gentlemen. The case we have before us today is This house would ban Druddigon from RU. I will be defining the motion and giving a model, and then telling you side proposition’s constructive points and then I will be going on to compare some other Pokemon (from the tier RU) to Druddigon. So what we believe the definition of the model to be is as following. This house as in Smogon, would ban Druddigon (holy Pokemon claw of the dragon god) from the tier Rarely Used. As a model we will be telling you about the after effects of the motion. We believe that after the motion has been passed the tier; RU will see dramatic changes. Dramatic changes such as, no more being frightened of the holy Pokemon claw Druddigon. Trop, and Molk and countless other Pokemon players will be released from their eternal slavery to Druddigon. So, onto my constructive speech. Today I will be presenting three constructive points: Druddigon’s statistics, Druddigon’s appearance, and Druddigon’s actions.
On side proposition we believe that Druddigon is too strong of a Pokemon to be in a low tier such as RU. Let us compare Druddigon’s statistics to Reshiram’s statistic. Reshiram is a Pokemon in the Ubers tier. As you know Ubers is the highest tier a Pokemon can go to. Druddigon has a amazing base attack stat of 120. That is the exact same as Reshiram; a Pokemon in Ubers. In fact, many Pokemon in Ubers also have the attack stat of 120. Druddigon is really the offensive Pokemon, it definitely doesn’t fit within the chambers of the RU tier.
Next ladies and gentlemen I will be talking about Druddigon’s appearance. Druddigon has a red face, and red spikes all over its body while having a blue body. This I daresay is the extremely scary. Druddigon has a red face. Side proposition believes that the red symbolizes blood, and all the people/Pokemon Druddigon has killed. The blood has left a permanent red stain on Druddigon’s face and the Spikes. Side proposition also believes that the blue body of Druddigon symbolizes coldness. Coldness is what you feel when you are dead. So right when you die, you feel cold. Then of course you wouldn’t feel anything else because you are dead.
My final constructive point will be Druddigon’s actions. Obviously Druddigon’s actions have been out of place. When Druddigon moves its hands/claws in battle it moves it around intimidatingly. Obviously, that is a sign of “Touch me, and I’ll rape you.” Rape is looked down upon within society and it is against the law. Obviously, Druddigon must be contained because of his/her actions.
So what have I told you today? I have told you that in a RU tier without Druddigon, everything would be A LOT better. I have told you that Druddigon’s statistics are just way too overpowered. I have told you that Druddigon’s appearance is intimidating to little children such as Molk and Imanalt . I have also told you that Druddigon’s actions are unacceptable and there are people who have experienced Druddigon’s disgusting actions such as TROP .
For these reasons this motion will and must stand. Thank you
Supporting evidence: http://pastebin.com/e1R9eCwm
Motion: This House Would would BAN druddigon from RU
Good evening ladies and gentlemen. The case we have before us today is This house would ban Druddigon from RU. I will be defining the motion and giving a model, and then telling you side proposition’s constructive points and then I will be going on to compare some other Pokemon (from the tier RU) to Druddigon. So what we believe the definition of the model to be is as following. This house as in Smogon, would ban Druddigon (holy Pokemon claw of the dragon god) from the tier Rarely Used. As a model we will be telling you about the after effects of the motion. We believe that after the motion has been passed the tier; RU will see dramatic changes. Dramatic changes such as, no more being frightened of the holy Pokemon claw Druddigon. Trop, and Molk and countless other Pokemon players will be released from their eternal slavery to Druddigon. So, onto my constructive speech. Today I will be presenting three constructive points: Druddigon’s statistics, Druddigon’s appearance, and Druddigon’s actions.
On side proposition we believe that Druddigon is too strong of a Pokemon to be in a low tier such as RU. Let us compare Druddigon’s statistics to Reshiram’s statistic. Reshiram is a Pokemon in the Ubers tier. As you know Ubers is the highest tier a Pokemon can go to. Druddigon has a amazing base attack stat of 120. That is the exact same as Reshiram; a Pokemon in Ubers. In fact, many Pokemon in Ubers also have the attack stat of 120. Druddigon is really the offensive Pokemon, it definitely doesn’t fit within the chambers of the RU tier.
Next ladies and gentlemen I will be talking about Druddigon’s appearance. Druddigon has a red face, and red spikes all over its body while having a blue body. This I daresay is the extremely scary. Druddigon has a red face. Side proposition believes that the red symbolizes blood, and all the people/Pokemon Druddigon has killed. The blood has left a permanent red stain on Druddigon’s face and the Spikes. Side proposition also believes that the blue body of Druddigon symbolizes coldness. Coldness is what you feel when you are dead. So right when you die, you feel cold. Then of course you wouldn’t feel anything else because you are dead.
My final constructive point will be Druddigon’s actions. Obviously Druddigon’s actions have been out of place. When Druddigon moves its hands/claws in battle it moves it around intimidatingly. Obviously, that is a sign of “Touch me, and I’ll rape you.” Rape is looked down upon within society and it is against the law. Obviously, Druddigon must be contained because of his/her actions.
So what have I told you today? I have told you that in a RU tier without Druddigon, everything would be A LOT better. I have told you that Druddigon’s statistics are just way too overpowered. I have told you that Druddigon’s appearance is intimidating to little children such as Molk and Imanalt . I have also told you that Druddigon’s actions are unacceptable and there are people who have experienced Druddigon’s disgusting actions such as TROP .
For these reasons this motion will and must stand. Thank you
Supporting evidence: http://pastebin.com/e1R9eCwm
Anyways onto the topic of Zoroark and the questions our glorious leader Molk have asked us.
How strong do you think Zoroark is in the current metagame?
It has a good niche in the current metagame. It is very tricky, and it is able to lure Pokemon in effectively. Although, I don't think it is good enough to be suspect tested. I do support it going to A+ or S rank, if it hasn't already.
What sets do you find work effectively on Zoroark?
When looking at a Pokemon, your opponent obviously thinks of ways to counter that said Pokemon. The Zoroark should carry a set which counters the Pokemon that counters the Pokemon that your Zoroark is disguised as.
What teammates work most effectively with Zoroark?
Good ones, ones that are really able to lure out Pokemon
What do you use to check and counter Zoroark?
I use Hazards such as rocks. Obviously a disguised Yanmega would only take 12% damage from rocks (i think) while i normal yanmega takes 50%
If you can do so at all, how do you attempt to tell Zoroark apart from its teammates, and if it successfully lures in one of your Pokemon, how do you make a comeback?
Look at the above question.
How strong do you think Zoroark is in the current metagame?
It has a good niche in the current metagame. It is very tricky, and it is able to lure Pokemon in effectively. Although, I don't think it is good enough to be suspect tested. I do support it going to A+ or S rank, if it hasn't already.
What sets do you find work effectively on Zoroark?
When looking at a Pokemon, your opponent obviously thinks of ways to counter that said Pokemon. The Zoroark should carry a set which counters the Pokemon that counters the Pokemon that your Zoroark is disguised as.
What teammates work most effectively with Zoroark?
Good ones, ones that are really able to lure out Pokemon
What do you use to check and counter Zoroark?
I use Hazards such as rocks. Obviously a disguised Yanmega would only take 12% damage from rocks (i think) while i normal yanmega takes 50%
If you can do so at all, how do you attempt to tell Zoroark apart from its teammates, and if it successfully lures in one of your Pokemon, how do you make a comeback?
Look at the above question.
- Status