np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Shiruba]

Your set has King's Shield. Who said we were using King's Shield?

 

[chimpact]

Headsmash is superior to rock slide a majority of the time.

 

[Darkdevil]

Your set has King's Shield. Who said we were using King's Shield?

by sacrifiying kings shield over another coverage move or shadow ball aegislash is frail and even threats like keldeo can switch in safely and ohko with scald, not to mention that defensive zapdos eats him alive with heat wave and can roost to avoid supereffective damage from headsmash. Losing kings shield isn't really a great idea, aegislash can no longer protect himself by knock offs so it becomes vulnerable to any physical supereffective move, even conkeldurr can check it well, thanks to its good bulk oh and did i forget gliscor or lando-t? they are good counters too.

 

[Chagrilled]

Most of aegislash's lure sets are really just the normal sets, which are standard tank, subtoxic and speedy wallbreaker. SD head smash isnt that common, but it's certainly not just for mandibuzz. It has the capability to wipe pretty much any rock neutral mon with a +2 head smash. It's a suicide nuke that you can potentially save to clean up late game. The reason the speedy sets run speed isnt just for mandibuzz or bisharp, it's for generally outspeeding walls so it can wallbreak better. And yes, the wallbreaker sets dont run kings shield. you're running speed, no hp, and a life orb. So it isn't really of that much benefit over coverage.

The speedy 4 attacks wallbreaker set outspeeds mandibuzz, and 2hko's it with flash cannon and sr (or a tiny amount of residual):
252 SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 199-234 (46.9 - 55.1%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It handles any hippowdon running a mixed spread:
252 SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Hippowdon: 208-247 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 184 SpD Hippowdon: 199-234 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Subtoxic can toxic mandi on the switch and can stall it out (though taunt means it's not able to stall as many turns). mandi cant break it's subs since you run -atk and 0 IV's:
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Aegislash-Shield: 60-72 (18.6 - 22.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippowdon doesnt like subtoxic at all, about the best it can do is whirlwind it out. Hippowdon's problem is that it's slow, and avoids the majority of the 2hkos it tries to take by a small margin. It pretty much as to slack off to keep that capability, and aegislash can just switch out for free.

Amoonguss is a pretty secure way to handle aegislash, the only set that can get past it is SD head smash:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 425-500 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Sdef gliscor is even more secure, though the odd air balloon can mess it up. But i think sdef gliscor runs knock off + earthquake anyway.

So let's put that into perspective, we have 1 secure counter (gliscor) if we ignore really niche stuff like shuca hp ice lure sets. 1 fairly secure counter (amoon) that loses to a potential SD head smash set. 1 soft counter (mandibuzz) that handles 1 set well, and has trouble with the rest. And 1 soft counter (hippowdon) that can switch into some of the sets, but basically lets it switch out for free.

With checks, the vast majority have trouble taking a shadow ball. they might force aegislash out once or twice, but the checks are certainly the mons having trouble getting back in. The ones that can take a couple shadow balls have to play around a potential sacred sword.

Bisharp is the most secure check, since if it gets a safe switch in it can pursuit trap it. But the speedy sets can outpace it (by 1 point, lol) and just outright kill it. This puts it into an awkward situation. You go from having a safe damage dealing option regardless (pursuit blade form, knock off shield form), to the safest option (sucker punch) potentially giving a free switch. It doesn't want to run jolly either, since it loses power, specifically against aegislash:
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Aegislash-Shield: 281-330 (87.2 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

If aegislash is in shield form in front of bisharp, sucker punch isnt even a safe option anymore. If you sucker punch and it's the speedy set you will kill, but if it's the standard tank set you don't 1hko:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Aegislash-Shield: 283-338 (108.4 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Aegislash-Shield: 252-299 (78.2 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

tldr; Aegislash is a pita to counter/check consistently, and it's lure sets do a damn site more than lure.

edit: Forgot the sd head smash set runs jolly, it still 1hkos though:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Punchshroom]

Head Smash=50% recoil.. congratz you killed a mandibuzz and now have a half dead aegislash. Also The fact you need stealth rocks to accomplish that goal just adds to the idea of aegislash requiring some team support.

Aegislash does not need Stealth Rock to OHKO Mandi. A Swords Dance on the switch means Mandibuzz is at risk from a boosted Head Smash. If Stealth Rock is in play, Aegislash doesn't even need to predict with Swords Dance at all; if Mandi switches in just outspeed and KO with Head Smash. This Aegislash not only provides a win condition with boosted Shadow Sneaks, but makes an effective Mandibuzz lure without sacrificing its overall killing potential (it does sacrifice bulk I'll give you that, but SD Aegislash cleans better).

For skarmory.. it does not 2HKO.. and skarmory has roost, something aegislash doesn't and will only recieve recoil trying.. Infact same case scenario as mandibuzz without rocks.. only a little better.

252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 136-161 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

How convenient of you to leave out the Swords Dance boost (that said, I probably should have mentioned that). The point is that Skarmory cannot stop Swords Dance Aegislash, due to taking too much damage to Roost off and cannot even retaliate with Counter.

Zapdos I personally don't see too many of.. nor would aegislash outspeed zapdos at all and would require head smash on switch-in.. making the extra speed useless and again slash at half health.

Arcanine isn't OU so pointless arguement there..

It is unfortunate that Head Smash takes so much out of Aegislash, but when it can OHKO bulky Pokemon with reliable recovery (when its other sets cannot) it is still worth a mention. P.S. Arcanine is seeing mild mention here for being pretty much the best Mega Mawile counter, so not being OU is also irrelevant, Head Smash hitting Arcanine is just a bonus.

Unless aegislash is running a -Spe nature.. he'll outspeed sucker punch mawile reguardless.. 50 base speed vs. 60..

The point is Aegislash running any Speed EVs at all, the nature is irrelevant. Other sets do not outspeed Mawile since they do not run speed while Mawile does.

gyarados will intimidate and mega evo losing rock type weakness.. free dragon dance basicly.

Pinsir always outspeeds, need to hit the switch in and again have half your health missing.

So basically Gyarados will have to play rope-a-dope with its typing and Aegislash's Sacred Sword, just like pretty much against other Aegislash sets? SD Aegislash is not really worse off compared to other Aegislash sets, which are just as likely to give the free Dance should they mispredict, though Gyara cannot setup against a +2 Shield Aegislash.

Also I don't know why you brought Pinsir into this, I listed Pinsir as a good partner to SD Aegislash.

 

[Flamer]

What I have learnt from this suspect test.

-The SD Head Smash set is the most effective set in the world, despite being labeled as mediocre and a niche for the past 6 months.
-Ground, Fire, Ghost and Dark type moves are useless outside of against Aegislash.
-Aegislash is actually a master predictor with 15 moveslots and no counters.
-Sp.Def Gliscor is a gimmick.
-The relatively low base power moves Shadow Ball and Iron Head are actually Ghost and Steel type Explosion clones in disguise that don't cause self destruction.
-When Aegislash uses Toxic the opponent faints instantly and also becomes invulnerable until the end of the turn.

 

[Albacore]

Okay, one aspect of Aegislash that I brought up a few pages ago and hasn't been discussed at all is that Aegi really doesn't mind being countereds at all. Aegislash will typically be able to switch in and out multiple times per game thanks to its typing and bulk. Furthermore, it has no difficulty switching out of its checks with the exception of Bisharp who has to win a 50/50 in order to trap it. EQ users aren't hard to switch into for obvious reaons, amd neither are its defensive checks (though Amoonguss can cause problems if Sleep Clause isn't active yet, bit afterwards it poses no offensive threat whatsoever). Ultimately, Aegi is a pivot. Switching in and out is its thing. You have a Mandibuzz? Great, now let's see it switch into Shadow Ball and rocks 5 times. You have a Hippowdon? Hope you don't eventually get a crit/SpD drop from switching in this many times! And here's hoping you don't face the SubToxic/LO Hasty 4 Attacks/SD Head Smash sets, because if your Mandi doesn't get poisoned the first time, it probably will the second, third or sixth time.
Aegi isn't the kind of Pokemon you can just thow a counter in front of and call it a day. So please, stop listing checks and counters.

 

[Lord Abbadon]

The person who defined Sp.Def Gliscor as a gimmick just for Aegi needs to reevaluate their definition of gimmick. Sp.Def Gliscor was, first of all, made more specifically for Landorus-I, it just happens to wall many other threats, including Aegislash and is very effective on both stall and balance, thus not a gimmick. A gimmick is something like Head Smash Aegi, something that is specifically made for one mon, sacrifices itself in the process and has little use outside of that, but to you pro-ban people it's "new meta" and op.
.

Um... I'm kinda having problem with your definition of gimmick as well. Running one uncommon move to deal with a specific threat can hardly be called a gimmick. If a team needs that specific pokemon removed so badly, this can be a sound strategy. Although Aegis offers so much else overall that sacrificing it to kill one specific threat is often not the best idea, it can be necessary in some cases. Plus it also helps agianst rare volcarona, who would try and get the dance going. Other pokes that are brought up on Head smash argument, SB for Skarm, toxic gets past sp.def zapdos, and Gyara doesnt like any of these two without mega evolving; so by no means aegis has to resort to Headsmash to get past them. the Gliscor walling Landorus-I part, while I admit I do not know the evs, I'm pretty sure Lando-I can get around this with hp Ice (classic bw and good coverage)/calm mind on protect/knock off on switch. So gliscor is sacrificing significant walling capabilities, and yet might not get around its desired target(who is much less likely to be present on an opponent team). With that out of the way, please name something else that Sp.Def Gliscor walls other than aegis, or I'm not going to be convinced its not a gimmick.

Another thing I would like to point out to all the people who are saying Aegis has low base power moves, you are right. But Aegis should not be banned because it hits too hard, that is probably the worst argument supporting the banning of aegis. But it hits hard enough for a poke who can take a hit with its 150 defenses. He either hits hard enough(on switch or after taking a hit) or has the tricks to get around anything that could wall him (av foul play amoonguss being the exception, who is no Heatran in terms of usefulness in OU if u compare with Genesect). Aegis, while impressive, does not have broken defense or offense. But that should not mean its combination of defense and offense, versatility and overall impact on meta do not make it banworthy

 

[Talpr0ne]

Um... I'm kinda having problem with your definition of gimmick as well. Running one uncommon move to deal with a specific threat can hardly be called a gimmick. If a team needs that specific pokemon removed so badly, this can be a sound strategy. Although Aegis offers so much else overall that sacrificing it to kill one specific threat is often not the best idea, it can be necessary in some cases. Plus it also helps agianst rare volcarona, who would try and get the dance going. Other pokes that are brought up on Head smash argument, SB for Skarm, toxic gets past sp.def zapdos, and Gyara doesnt like any of these two without mega evolving; so by no means aegis has to resort to Headsmash to get past them. the Gliscor walling Landorus-I part, while I admit I do not know the evs, I'm pretty sure Lando-I can get around this with hp Ice (classic bw and good coverage)/calm mind on protect/knock off on switch. So gliscor is sacrificing significant walling capabilities, and yet might not get around its desired target(who is much less likely to be present on an opponent team). With that out of the way, please name something else that Sp.Def Gliscor walls other than aegis, or I'm not going to be convinced its not a gimmick.

It can also wall better Gengar and Tornadus-T. It may not seem much, but keep in mind that even with a Sdef Spread it can still wall all the physical shit it is normally supposed to with little to no effort. Moreover, HP Ice is very, very rare on both Landorus and Aegislash, as it often gets outdamaged by Earth Power, Psychic and Shadow Ball, with Gliscor itself being the sole exception.

 

[Lord Abbadon]

It can also wall better Gengar and Tornadus-T. It may not seem much, but keep in mind that even with a Sdef Spread it can still wall all the physical shit it is normally supposed to with little to no effort. Moreover, HP Ice is very, very rare on both Landorus and Aegislash, as it often gets outdamaged by Earth Power, Psychic and Shadow Ball, with Gliscor itself being the sole exception.

Obviously Aegis doesn't ever really carry HP Ice; I dont think I've even said that. But for Lando I, Earth power+Focus Blast is resisted by all the flying types without secondary fighting weak typing(I know there isnt too many) and the Latis. HP Ice hits them all super effectively. I'm not saying its the best option, but its a viable option. Also there's the issue of CM.
About Gliscor's walling capbility, I dont have the calcs cause I dont know the evs, but without physical ev investment Gliscor should have trouble with physical setup sweepers whom he could check otherwise (Scizor comes to mind, Zard x too probably).

 

[Flamer]

Um... I'm kinda having problem with your definition of gimmick as well. Running one uncommon move to deal with a specific threat can hardly be called a gimmick. If a team needs that specific pokemon removed so badly, this can be a sound strategy. Although Aegis offers so much else overall that sacrificing it to kill one specific threat is often not the best idea, it can be necessary in some cases. Plus it also helps agianst rare volcarona, who would try and get the dance going. Other pokes that are brought up on Head smash argument, SB for Skarm, toxic gets past sp.def zapdos, and Gyara doesnt like any of these two without mega evolving; so by no means aegis has to resort to Headsmash to get past them. the Gliscor walling Landorus-I part, while I admit I do not know the evs, I'm pretty sure Lando-I can get around this with hp Ice (classic bw and good coverage)/calm mind on protect/knock off on switch. So gliscor is sacrificing significant walling capabilities, and yet might not get around its desired target(who is much less likely to be present on an opponent team). With that out of the way, please name something else that Sp.Def Gliscor walls other than aegis, or I'm not going to be convinced its not a gimmick.

Another thing I would like to point out to all the people who are saying Aegis has low base power moves, you are right. But Aegis should not be banned because it hits too hard, that is probably the worst argument supporting the banning of aegis. But it hits hard enough for a poke who can take a hit with its 150 defenses. He either hits hard enough(on switch or after taking a hit) or has the tricks to get around anything that could wall him (av foul play amoonguss being the exception, who is no Heatran in terms of usefulness in OU if u compare with Genesect). Aegis, while impressive, does not have broken defense or offense. But that should not mean its combination of defense and offense, versatility and overall impact on meta do not make it banworthy

Actually

People will often test something on, say, the ladder, and find that their gimmick was effective in what it was supposed to do against a specific opponent, so they believe that their gimmick is actually an effective and underrated set. Let's take the example of someone (let's call him Halcyon) using Scarf Lucario with Crunch. They go on the ladder, and are able to KO the opponent's Gengar with Crunch because the opponent did not expect Lucario to be faster than Gengar. Halcyon leaves the match thinking "aw yeah, my Scarf Lucario set worked! I knew it was an effective set! I'm gonna keep using it." However, this is false for a number of reasons. The first thing to consider when using an unusual set is "does this unusual set do what it is supposed to do?" For this, Halcyon can say yes if his team needs something to lure and beat Gengar. His Scarf Lucario did just that. But the next thing to ask is "does the benefit of using this set outweigh the viability of other options for this team slot?"

(Taken from the battling tip of the day)

In this case, what are you sacrificing by using Head Smash and is there anything that can do it better without sacrificing viability? The most obvious shortcoming is longevity. 50% recoil sucks in every possible way, except for suicide, and when the thing you're using it against has pretty high HP while holding a Life Orb, you're in for a rough time. The second obvious thing is you are wasting the potential of using Aegislash for something more useful just to kamikaze against your counter. And congratulations, you have just stated that Aegislash can run three sets at once. I don't think there are enough moveslots for Head Smash, Toxic, Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, Substitute, Sacred Sword, Iron Head and Kings Shield.

Also, don't knock a set if you have never come across it, this thing is able to, like the above user said, wall all of the shit P.Def Gliscor does, but is also able to wall Thundurus without HP Ice (it still has a very high chance to survive anyway), Mega-Venu, Clefable, Gengar, Torn-T, Zapdos and more, not to mention being immune to status. And regarding the fabled HP Ice Landorus, ignoring the fact that it loses much needed coverage witht HP Ice, which is way way back on his wishlist anyway, doesn't even OHKO, leaving Gliscor free to knock its Orb off and switch out to something that knows it can deal with Lando now that one of its precious coverage moves are missing.

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Gliscor: 286-338 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Finally, how do you even define Amoongus as a gimmick? Its pretty much a Mega Venu with 100% sleep, no mega cost and regenerator at the cost of some power and bulk. AV Amoongus doesn't exist, where did you pull it from. The most common set is Spore/Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/Foul Play and it is able to go toe-to-toe with some of the most threatening mons in ou, avoiding the 2HKO from every one of Band Azu and Specs Keldeos moves (including HP Flying), as well as being able to fuck Aegislashes shit up.

 

[Lord Abbadon]

What I have learnt from this suspect test.

-The SD Head Smash set is the most effective set in the world, despite being labeled as mediocre and a niche for the past 6 months.
-Ground, Fire, Ghost and Dark type moves are useless outside of against Aegislash.
-Aegislash is actually a master predictor with 15 moveslots and no counters.
-Sp.Def Gliscor is a gimmick.
-The relatively low base power moves Shadow Ball and Iron Head are actually Ghost and Steel type Explosion clones in disguise that don't cause self destruction.
-When Aegislash uses Toxic the opponent faints instantly and also becomes invulnerable until the end of the turn.

This is just taking some one else's argument and blowing it out of proportion so that it seems ridiculous. Contributes absolutely nothing for the cause.

Also, 4mss is proved millions of times before to be a void argument. I'll not even get into that.

SD Headsmash is niche, you are right about that.

Edit: You are right Haunter, I shouldn't have argued to that.

 

[MegaMogwai]

I'm gonna have to quit the suspect ladder at a COIL of 2618. Your system is flawed. I was at 2682, won a game and went up to 2693, lost a game and went almost 30 points down. This is bullshit. I had the best glicko-1 for a long time in the whole suspect ladder, and then I get a losing streak going on and all my hard work is rendered pointless.

You guys overdid it with 2700 imo. Unless you spend an entire life laddering its very difficult to accomplish, and the punishment for losing is far greater than the reward for winning. I had a 34-5 record going on and I still had to win like 10 games in a row in order to get there... I feel like I waste SO MUCH time with this.

 

[haunter]

Lol I can't believe you're actually going to argue Flamer's points when it's so clear that his post is sarcastic.

Also, I'd like to point out that running unconventional sets/moves to eliminate specific wanna-be counters is something that many other Pokémon can do and ins't really a good reason as to why they should be banned. Think about Latios running HP fighting to catch Tyranitar/Bisharp on the switch or Lucario running mixed sets with HP ice to eliminate Gliscor, potentially giving its team mates the opportunity to sweep with stuff like Exacdrill/Terrakion. The surprise factor isn't exclusive to Aegislash, unlike many of you seem to imply.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally aware that Aeigslash's level of threat isn't comparable to the Pokémon I mentioned, but if Aegi gets banned it's certainly not going to be for its ability to lure and kill Mandibuzz with head smash.

I'm gonna have to quit the suspect ladder at a COIL of 2618. Your system is flawed. I was at 2682, won a game and went up to 2693, lost a game and went almost 30 points down. This is bullshit. I had the best glicko-1 for a long time in the whole suspect ladder, and then I get a losing streak going on and all my hard work is rendered pointless.

You guys overdid it with 2700 imo. Unless you spend an entire life laddering its very difficult to accomplish, and the punishment for losing is far greater than the reward for winning. I had a 34-5 record going on and I still had to win like 10 games in a row in order to get there... I feel like I waste SO MUCH time with this.

If you miss the required rating for just a few points, you can still apply for a special permission.

 

[Lord Abbadon]

Actually
(Taken from the battling tip of the day)

In this case, what are you sacrificing by using Head Smash and is there anything that can do it better without sacrificing viability? The most obvious shortcoming is longevity. 50% recoil sucks in every possible way, except for suicide, and when the thing you're using it against has pretty high HP while holding a Life Orb, you're in for a rough time. The second obvious thing is you are wasting the potential of using Aegislash for something more useful just to kamikaze against your counter. And congratulations, you have just stated that Aegislash can run three sets at once. I don't think there are enough moveslots for Head Smash, Toxic, Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, Substitute, Sacred Sword, Iron Head and Kings Shield.

Also, don't knock a set if you have never come across it, this thing is able to, like the above user said, wall all of the shit P.Def Gliscor does, but is also able to wall Thundurus without HP Ice (it still has a very high chance to survive anyway), Mega-Venu, Clefable, Gengar, Torn-T, Zapdos and more, not to mention being immune to status. And regarding the fabled HP Ice Landorus, ignoring the fact that it loses much needed coverage witht HP Ice, which is way way back on his wishlist anyway, doesn't even OHKO, leaving Gliscor free to knock its Orb off and switch out to something that knows it can deal with Lando now that one of its precious coverage moves are missing.

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Gliscor: 286-338 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Finally, how do you even define Amoongus as a gimmick? Its pretty much a Mega Venu with 100% sleep, no mega cost and regenerator at the cost of some power and bulk. AV Amoongus doesn't exist, where did you pull it from. The most common set is Spore/Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/Foul Play and it is able to go toe-to-toe with some of the most threatening mons in ou, avoiding the 2HKO from every one of Band Azu and Specs Keldeos moves (including HP Flying), as well as being able to fuck Aegislashes shit up.

I never said Amoonguss was a gimmick. Please read again.
Also when I mentioned Shadow ball/toxic to deal with likes of Skarm/Zapdos, I was trying to prove that Aegis doesnt need to resort to Headsmash to defeat them.

I asked for examples proving how sp.def gliscor is effective, you have proven that much. Though for most of the cases, he only goes as far as knocking of the item ; I will agree that Sp.def Gliscor is not a gimmick.

 

[Flamer]

Lord Abbadon Blowing out of proportion you say?

for the record: i dont care that aegislash makes lots of pokemon unviable, and no one should. what i care about is that aegislash is busted as shit. it is absurdly bulky with amazing typing that lets it switch in easily to throw around stupidly strong attacks that are incredibly hard to switch into for any team.

there is no "right" move here. this is what battling against aegislash is like.

Those were posted by BKC, a well respected poster. Not the best example I know due to his habit of using obscenities every second word at the best of times but it pays to do some research before hitting that "reply" button. Not to mention it was so clear my post was sarcastic I could see China through it.

And in regards to the above post, you basically stated AV Amoongus as the only was it could hope to counter Aegislash, which has no use outside of that, therefore is a gimmick. I simply enlightened you on the mighty PokeShroom.

 

[Synchronation]

After reading what is happening around this discussion here I wanted to say a last few things. Everything is said more than enough and still the same arguments are repeating over and over.

1. Head Smash Aegislash
Probably the worst argument from the pro-ban side. Head Smash is a lure move if you really have a team that needs to remove Mandibuzz quick and safely. Head Smash - Slash does indeed kill Mandibuzz, but is STILL a medicore move and can be considered as gimmick. This generation is a generation of CHECKS not HARD-COUNTERS. There are many Pokemon who don't have these hardcounters and can still be checked well. I want to use Mega-Aerodactyl as an example:

You are facing a Mega-Aerodactyl and you need to switch to a counter. What do you do?
A water-type? Seems pretty solid, if Aero doesn't have Thunderfang. Rotom-W don't fear this move but can be 2HKO by Stone Edge. Quagsire is probably the only water-pokemon that can switch in Aero everytime.
Ground-types like Gliscor or Landorus? Pretty good, but what if he has Ice Fang? Hippowdon sounds pretty good then, right? Guess what: Aero can learn Aqua Tail! Again, only Quagsire can switch in everytime.
Steel-Types could be great, resisting both STABS. The only problem is that Aero can learn Earthquake and Fire Fang, so Skarmory isn't solid either, only bulky Jirachi can take enough hits to counter it one time. Once switched out, Jirachi cannot come in again without being beaten.
What about Mega-Venusaur then? Its ability lets it resist Ice- and Firefang. Of course Aerial Ace destroys it which is pretty common too.

Looking at that you could say Mega-Aerodactyl is ONLY countered by Quagsire (and Gastrodon and Swampert). The only way to beat it would be guessing its movesets and switching in the right check or revenge-killing it with priority like Bullet Punch or Aqua Jet.

If you as teambuilder decide to run a medicore move to beat certain threats then it is your choice. Aegislash being able to run Head Smash IS NOT A BROKEN EXCEPTION. Many Pokemon can do that, I have seen Grass Knot Bisharps and HP Ice Heatrans and that can really catch you off guard.

I repeat: This generation is a generation of checks, not of counters. It is a generation in which prediction is MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER.

2. Aegislash causes too much luck creating 50/50 with Kings Shield

If Head Smash wouldn't be mentioned so often I would consider THIS as the worst argument ever.
Repeating myself and other people again: Pokemon is FULL OF 50/50! Guessing right puts you in a good spot guessing wrong puts you in a bad spot. A bad and unhealthy 50/50 would be a situation in which even guessing right achieves nothing. I made an example with Genesect which shows such a unhealthy coinflip. This isn't the cause with Kings Shield or Aegislash. I made even more examples to make this clear.
Examples like "Your last Pokemon is a Weavile and your opponent has a Aegislash, this is a 50/50 and has nothing to do with prediction" is true, but very situational and can be created with other Pokemon too. Sucker Punch is a prime example of this.

3. Aegislash forces medicore moves on Pokemon
Only physical Lucario would really like to run Crunch instead of Earthquake because of Gengar and the rare Gourgeist. In most other cases it is just a good coverage move that happens to deal with Aegislash too. CC on Pinsir was discussed pretty often: It lets Pinsir getting easier revenge-killed and it doesn't even hit anything harder than Return. You still need something for Skarmory and Rotom-W. I don't want to talk about every Pokemon now but this was a often mentioned example. Superpower on Azumarill because of Ferrothorn is way worse than Earthquake on Terrakion.
A bad argument too since Aegislash is getting destroyed by common attacking types.

4. Aegislash can run too many effective sets which makes it unpredictable

I asked once and I ask twice now: I would like to see replays in which you get screwed because of a wrong predicted Aegislash in mid-game. SubToxic can toxic your Mandibuzz, but this isn't the end of the world. With only Shadow Ball as coverage it is easier checked now by other Pokemon that can worn it down because of the lack of recovery. SD-Set doesn't carry Kings Shield (except you're running into the rare Stance-Dance set which has less coverage) and should be walled by your physical wall without preparing for it. So even if your opponent doesn't run the standard-set you should be able to handle it, expecially mid-game. Late-game Aegislash are most of the time SD-sets because they can act as cleaner. It is not that difficult to predict. All sets are from aggressive nature not like Deoxys-S who could run support, lead, aggressive and even mixed versions of these three!
I let it short in this point because we talked a lot about this, nothing more to add.

5. 150 base defense AND offense are Uber-stats

They would be, if he wouldn't have only 60 base KP and low base power moves. 150 Sp.-Attack with 80 base Shadow Ball is not Uber. 150 defense with a base of 60 KP isn't ground-breaking either. Aegislash is a bulky sweeper who looses its bulk while attacking and have to give up a turn to be bulky again.


Many people are just annoyed of Aegislash which makes this suspect test ridiculous. I talked to some pro-banners on the ladder and they often say that they don't like to deal with it. One even said he didn't like the design and hate Aegislash for being useful. And no, these are no exceptions, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE THAT.
To make a comparison: If Talonflame would be suspected many people would vote for ban for this same reason: They don't like it. The outcome of this suspect test could end in a very subjective ban seeing all this hate.

I hope I didn't miss anything. Everything is said and nothing really to add.

 

[Toljik]

I don't think using coverage moves against Aegislash is a great argument against a ban when it has such good bulk. Earthquake on Pinsir can cripple Aegislash, but without a boost it's barely a 2HKO, and it will be crippled itself by Shadow Ball. Similiarly, Terrakion needs a Choice Band to do the job, but Earthquake is not the best move to get locked into. Though of course Aegislash needs Air Balloon to switch in. Yes, its HP stat is pretty bad, but so is Rotom-W's and we all know how good its bulk is.

At least Azumarill does ~90% to Ferrothorn with Superpower.

 

[Shadowmana9]

Aegislash does not need Stealth Rock to OHKO Mandi. A Swords Dance on the switch means Mandibuzz is at risk from a boosted Head Smash. If Stealth Rock is in play, Aegislash doesn't even need to predict with Swords Dance at all; if Mandi switches in just outspeed and KO with Head Smash. This Aegislash not only provides a win condition with boosted Shadow Sneaks, but makes an effective Mandibuzz lure without sacrificing its overall killing potential (it does sacrifice bulk I'll give you that, but SD Aegislash cleans better).


How convenient of you to leave out the Swords Dance boost (that said, I probably should have mentioned that). The point is that Skarmory cannot stop Swords Dance Aegislash, due to taking too much damage to Roost off and cannot even retaliate with Counter.


It is unfortunate that Head Smash takes so much out of Aegislash, but when it can OHKO bulky Pokemon with reliable recovery (when its other sets cannot) it is still worth a mention. P.S. Arcanine is seeing mild mention here for being pretty much the best Mega Mawile counter, so not being OU is also irrelevant, Head Smash hitting Arcanine is just a bonus.


The point is Aegislash running any Speed EVs at all, the nature is irrelevant. Other sets do not outspeed Mawile since they do not run speed while Mawile does.


So basically Gyarados will have to play rope-a-dope with its typing and Aegislash's Sacred Sword, just like pretty much against other Aegislash sets? SD Aegislash is not really worse off compared to other Aegislash sets, which are just as likely to give the free Dance should they mispredict, though Gyara cannot setup against a +2 Shield Aegislash.

Also I don't know why you brought Pinsir into this, I listed Pinsir as a good partner to SD Aegislash.

Shadow sneak is too weak a move to call a "win-condition" even at +2. Even if it were the case that Aegislash could run an adequate sweeper, which it in not, your calculations for head smash are irrelevant due to the simple fact that shadow sneak/head smash/king's shield/swords dance leaves it with little coverage and therefore is a bad example of a sweeping set. It seems unlikely that Aegislash actually has a sweeping set that out strips other sweepers except for having more setup opportunity. An Aegislash that can lure, eliminate its own counters, and sweep a team would not be up for debate. It would have already been banned.

 

[Shadowmana9]

I don't think using coverage moves against Aegislash is a great argument against a ban when it has such good bulk. Earthquake on Pinsir can cripple Aegislash, but without a boost it's barely a 2HKO, and it will be crippled itself by Shadow Ball. Similiarly, Terrakion needs a Choice Band to do the job, but Earthquake is not the best move to get locked into. Though of course Aegislash needs Air Balloon to switch in. Yes, its HP stat is pretty bad, but so is Rotom-W's and we all know how good its bulk is.

At least Azumarill does ~90% to Ferrothorn with Superpower.

Why are you sending your sweeper out without a setup opportunity, in front of Aegislash of all things? Comparing it to Rotom-W has been done by the anti-ban side multiple times. No one said it wasn't bulky but ,like Rotom-W, it can easily be beaten down since neither have a reliable recovery.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Aegislash does not need Stealth Rock to OHKO Mandi. A Swords Dance on the switch means Mandibuzz is at risk from a boosted Head Smash. If Stealth Rock is in play, Aegislash doesn't even need to predict with Swords Dance at all; if Mandi switches in just outspeed and KO with Head Smash. This Aegislash not only provides a win condition with boosted Shadow Sneaks, but makes an effective Mandibuzz lure without sacrificing its overall killing potential (it does sacrifice bulk I'll give you that, but SD Aegislash cleans better).


How convenient of you to leave out the Swords Dance boost (that said, I probably should have mentioned that). The point is that Skarmory cannot stop Swords Dance Aegislash, due to taking too much damage to Roost off and cannot even retaliate with Counter.


It is unfortunate that Head Smash takes so much out of Aegislash, but when it can OHKO bulky Pokemon with reliable recovery (when its other sets cannot) it is still worth a mention. P.S. Arcanine is seeing mild mention here for being pretty much the best Mega Mawile counter, so not being OU is also irrelevant, Head Smash hitting Arcanine is just a bonus.


The point is Aegislash running any Speed EVs at all, the nature is irrelevant. Other sets do not outspeed Mawile since they do not run speed while Mawile does.


So basically Gyarados will have to play rope-a-dope with its typing and Aegislash's Sacred Sword, just like pretty much against other Aegislash sets? SD Aegislash is not really worse off compared to other Aegislash sets, which are just as likely to give the free Dance should they mispredict, though Gyara cannot setup against a +2 Shield Aegislash.

Also I don't know why you brought Pinsir into this, I listed Pinsir as a good partner to SD Aegislash.

SD boost..

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 272-320 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now you killed skarmory, something heatran or a much better pokemon could do.. and you're at half health..+double life orb damage!

Now at +2 and life orb what can you achieve?

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 131-155 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 251-296 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Requires stealth rocks..)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 227-269 (86.6 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 338-398 (96 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (Add that iron barbs+rocky helm to your head smash recoil..)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 161-191 (59.4 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 208-246 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 208-246 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm done as calcs which it seems you fail to acknowledge are just spam at this point.

So what did you achieve.. pulled off a sword's dance. Revealed your set, got half your health removed trying to remove mandibuzz/skarmory, and then life orb further killing you, leave yourselve in blade forme since SD sets NEVER carries king's shield.. which would be stance dance and we disguessed how bad that can be... And now you can't OHKO, or in some cases aren't guarenteed to 2HKO pretty much every revenge killer in the game.. not even just revenge killers..

This is just as gimmicky as cloyster.. even if you get to sweeping potentional it goes no where.. you can baton pass a singe SD+2 speed boost to aegislash using scolipede if you want.. you're still so easy to revenge kill and end the sweep.

Oh btw.. just run shadow ball or flash cannon on a mixed set.. at +0 it'll do better damage and no recoil..

Why are you sending your sweeper out without a setup opportunity, in front of Aegislash of all things? Comparing it to Rotom-W has been done by the anti-ban side multiple times. No one said it wasn't bulky but ,like Rotom-W, it can easily be beaten down since neither have a reliable recovery.

Actually what I was trying to point out earlier is rotom wash DOES have reliable recovery with chesto-rest set and being capable of furthering it's bulk much higher than slash with a burn.. and only 1 weakness being the very rare and usually slow grass type. Aegislash could never utilize a such set or a rest talk set as he has no method of furthering his bulk outside gimmicky iron defense (Uh oh.. some people will arguement that iron defense is a thing since it was mentoned. What have I done!)

 

[Karxrida]

SD boost..

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 272-320 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now you killed skarmory, something heatran or a much better pokemon could do.. and you're at half health..+double life orb damage!

Now at +2 and life orb what can you achieve?

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 131-155 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 251-296 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Requires stealth rocks..)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 227-269 (86.6 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 338-398 (96 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (Add that iron barbs+rocky helm to your head smash recoil..)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 161-191 (59.4 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 208-246 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 208-246 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm done as calcs which it seems you fail to acknowledge are just spam at this point.

So what did you achieve.. pulled off a sword's dance. Revealed your set, got half your health removed trying to remove mandibuzz/skarmory, and then life orb further killing you, leave yourselve in blade forme since SD sets NEVER carries king's shield.. which would be stance dance and we disguessed how bad that can be... And now you can't OHKO, or in some cases aren't guarenteed to 2HKO pretty much every revenge killer in the game.. not even just revenge killers..

This is just as gimmicky as cloyster.. even if you get to sweeping potentional it goes no where.. you can baton pass a singe SD+2 speed boost to aegislash using scolipede if you want.. you're still so easy to revenge kill and end the sweep.

Oh btw.. just run shadow ball or flash cannon on a mixed set.. at +0 it'll do better damage and no recoil..



Actually what I was trying to point out earlier is rotom wash DOES have reliable recovery with chesto-rest set and being capable of furthering it's bulk much higher than slash with a burn.. and only 1 weakness being the very rare and usually slow grass type. Aegislash could never utilize a such set or a rest talk set as he has no method of furthering his bulk outspide gimmicky iron defense (Uh oh.. some people will arguement that iron defense is a thing since it was mentoned. What have I done!)

Breloom actually runs a Sash so it can Spore something, forcing Aegislash out and running your sweep or removing something else from the game.

 

[InfinityX000]

I feel like people are making bad comparisons. I have made my share of bad comparisons, but it is hard to compare Aegis to anything else. It is unique. There are some good comparisons here, but all of those are for pokes who, simply put, aren't S-rank. This makes it hard to understand and easier to push aside. Maybe we should stop talking about aegis "being like this banned poke" or "like this legal poke" and start talking about Aegis itself. But I must say one thing: Unique should not alone be an argument for banning Aegislash. There are many unique pokemon. And people can, will, and have adjusted to Aegislash.

On a slightly different topic, when Aegis's sets are tailored so much it can't be checked by any good conventional check, aegis becomes a weaker poke. Aegis has to forgo items and moveslots for extra coverage. And there also has been talk of tailoring Aegis's team to stop the checks. I feel like when that happens, you end up with a weak, ill-synergized team with only one very strong poke. I am in no way saying this makes aegis a bad poke, simply that by fixing its flaws, it creates others.

 

[Mood4food77]

it's a little different. mega lucario had checks to each set but outside of a weird AV azumarill spread, the checks didn't cross over meaning you had to carry a check for physical mega luc, one for special luc, and then a third for mixed or just a straight up revenge killer. aegislash on the other hand, has a lot of checks that check the majority of his sets (mandibuzz, bisharp, ttar, etc). do they check all of them? no but they check a lot of them and you aren't fucked over if you make a mistake like you would be with mega lucario

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Plus, Aegislash isn't going to single handedly sweep your team. It has to accept that to do its job, it'll take a lot of hits, and therefore will only have so much impact on the match. The danger is how consistently it will do that impact. Lucario had very little impact if you handled it right, but handling it right was taxing. Aegislash is much easier to prepare for, but "preparing" for it is less of a sure thing.

Plus, its not anything like Lucario where it's checks were next to worthless against half its sets. Aside from a few niche sets, you can handle most Aegislashes the same way. It requires scouting, but there isn't much of a comparison between these two.