Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Just like TTar, DNite, Excadrill, Mawile, Conkeldurr, Kyubes, Mega Chomp, Mega Scizor, Mega Gyarados, Azumarill, Aegislash, and Diggersby? Cuz all of those are more powerful than Aero and run Adamant, and the non megas can run LO/Band to increase it further.
Well the difference between those Pokemon and Mega Aerodactyl is that they either have a speed boosting method or know they can't outrun things either way, while Mega Aerodactyl can outrun base 130s while running an Adamant nature, which is a huge advantage when against fast and frail teams.
 
1. Mega Aerodactyl's coverage is crazy, and though it's all low in BP, it's mostly boosted by tough claws and it can afford to run Adamant. Its SE coverage is really gud
2. Good support options. Defog, Taunt, Tailwind, and Stealth Rock. Taunt+Roost set is kind of good against stall.
3. It's great defensively, too, cause a. it has a unique defensive typing, b. reliable recovery, and c. it's fast as balls, so a lot of times it can Roost before taking damage or just retaliate, e.g. while it's 2HKOed by Lando Focus Blast, it can just outspeed and KO with Ice Fang, even with no investment.
4. It's fast as balls

Oh yeah as for the defensive thing, a spread of 248 HP / 172 Def / 32 SpD / 56+ Spe is something I like to use, and it's pretty cool. It can pretty reliably switch in to a few top threats: notably, a set with Rock Tomb can check both forms of Zard which is pretty unique, so like if it's not MEvolved+you can't entirely tell which one it is, you can just send Aero in without gambling with Quagsire or Chansey. It also handles Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Landorus, Taunt Gliscor... lots of stuff. And it can RK both of Mega Heracross and Medicham if it carries Aerial Ace, and Gardevoir after Stealth Rock+one Seismic Toss; while it can't reliably switch in to these guys, it at least stops them from 6-0ing your stall team. The speed is really, really nice for something that can also take hits.

Oh yeah and even if you can't fit it on your team, it gets SDef boost from Sand which is really clutch.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 32 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in Sand: 252-299 (69.4 - 82.3%)

It also gets Pressure as pre-evo ability which is even MORE clutch.

Reasons I wouldn't move it up are:
-serious case of 4MSS. Roost is needed. Rock STAB is needed; Rock Tomb is good for X-zard, but without Stone Edge it can't actually OHKO that Thundurus up there tho consistency is nice. Aerial Ace is needed to RK the stuff I mentioned, Ice Fang is needed for Lando, but then you lose EQ which is needed for Heatran and Aegislash, and Iron Head would be nice to guarantee OHKO on Garde. I guess it depends on what the rest of your team is weak to.
-super dependent on its speed+typing to check what it can check. It's not very bulky.
-Roost means it gains weaknesses. This isn't usually a problem for slower flying types like Mandi and Skarm, but Aero usually roosts before the opponent moves, so it can get nailed by Y-zard Solar Beam; EQ from, uh, everything; Close Combats, etc. On the other hand it lets you roost in front of slower electric types.
-we're losing all the mons in B ._. everything is going up cause it's "better than the rest of the stuff in B" and going down cause "it's not as good as the stuff in B." People are arguing for Conk to go down, and if Aero goes up too then we only have five things in flat B and two of them are pretty much the same pokemon.

But then again I've only had experience with this defensive set. The more offensive set could be cool.
 
I support Mega Garchomp for A-

Despite its lower speed (and sometimes physical power) than its normal form, Mega Garchomp is a nightmare for stall. Thanks to its good base 120 special attack, it has no problem dispatching Skarmory and Ferrothorn, whereas normal Garchomp tends to struggle a lot against these (especially if it lacks Fire Blast). It can get past physically defensive Rotom-W with Draco Meteor and cares less about WoW. Garchompite is also an item many people would not expect Garchomp to hold. When paired with Tyranitar or Hippo, Earthquake and Stone Edge can take out many threats Mega Garchomp would otherwise struggle against:

4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Sand: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur in Sand: 205-243 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir in Sand: 348-411 (125.1 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos in Sand: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Garchomp is a nightmare for stall If normal Garchomp wasn't bulky enough, Mega Garchomp takes this to the extreme: it has 108/115/95 defenses, which allow it to take a beating even when uninvested.

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 206-246 (57.5 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 260-308 (72.6 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 308-366 (86 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 280-331 (78.2 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So, Mega Garchomp, with its great defenses, huge power and an okayish speed (although not as good as Garchomp's), is in my opinion better than all the other Pokemon in B+ (maybe with the exception of Mega Medicham). Unlike Kabutops, Garchomp does not REQUIRE weather, it only appreciates it (kinda like Manaphy). Mega Garchomp deserves to move up.
 
How reliable is Mega Aerodactyl as a stall breaker? What 2 attacks are good on that set? (I think dual STAB is great, but Ice Fang is just too sad not to have on a mon like him). I'm really curious about this.
 
Gothitelle for B+.

Being one of the best stallbreakers in the metagame I believe Gothitelle deserves to be B+, and I'm pretty sure some here are sharing the same opinion with me. Shadow Tag is what's making it really effective and except Ghost-types nothing can switch out of it which makes Stall teams struggle while facing it since one of stall teams' props is switching out. It can run a Calm Mind and Rest set when it finds the best opportunity to boost its already high SDef and SAtk and can also run a Choice Specs set that can deal with stall as it outspeeds most of the walls.
 
Gothitelle for B+.

Being one of the best stallbreakers in the metagame I believe Gothitelle deserves to be B+, and I'm pretty sure some here are sharing the same opinion with me. Shadow Tag is what's making it really effective and except Ghost-types nothing can switch out of it which makes Stall teams struggle while facing it since one of stall teams' props is switching out. It can run a Calm Mind and Rest set when it finds the best opportunity to boost its already high SDef and SAtk and can also run a Choice Specs set that can deal with stall as it outspeeds most of the walls.

The problem is is thats its dead weight against offense, and being weak to pursuit sucks. I wouldnt raise it to B+
 
I agree with koista. Gothitelle's stats are rather sub par compared to other pokemon in OU not having enough speed to outpace the stuff it traps without a choice scarf on most situations, as well as lacks the power to OHKO stuff it checks without a set of choice specs. Finally, it often needs to double switch to trap because its defenses and hps are low enough its 2hkoed by a lot of common things within OU
 
Mega Pinsir-->A Rank
While still a very good Pokemon, I don't find Mega Pinsir is as threatening as other A+ Rank Pokemon. Thanks to its 4x weakness to SR, its rather easy for most teams to keep in check and unlike other Pokemon weak to SR like Charizard Y and Talonflame, it lacks reliable recovery, making it more reliant on rapid spin and defog users to remove entry hazards. Its mediocre typing makes it rather hard for Pinsir to find oppurtunities to setup Swords dance and it can still be checked by Pokemon such as CS Garchomp, Thundurus, CS Heatran, Raikou, and Rotom-W after it has setup a Swords Dance. Overall I feel that Mega Pinsir requires far more support than a majority of the Pokemon in A+ Rank and I feel its rank should reflect that.
 
Mega Pinsir-->A Rank
While still a very good Pokemon, I don't find Mega Pinsir is as threatening as other A+ Rank Pokemon. Thanks to its 4x weakness to SR, its rather easy for most teams to keep in check and unlike other Pokemon weak to SR like Charizard Y and Talonflame, it lacks reliable recovery, making it more reliant on rapid spin and defog users to remove entry hazards. It can also be checked by Pokemon such as CS Garchomp, Thundurus, CS Heatran, Raikou, and Rotom-W after it has setup a Swords Dance. Overall I feel that Mega Pinsir requires far more support than a majority of the Pokemon in A+ Rank do and I feel its rank should reflect that.
I honestly hate to disagree with you / start an argument because we are homies (lol)

Mega Pinsir is an amazing pokemon. Sure its checked by Thundurus-I and Rotom-W. And countered by Skarmory. It gets beat by CS Garchomp and CS Tran, but you can't still ignore the fact that they can't directly switch in. Your opponent is pretty much sacking something to get the appropriate check to come in or else Thundurus-I and Raikou is taking massive damage and Rotom-W will be dead after taking a Returns allowing the next +2 Return to take it out assuming SR is up which is a common scenario. You can say Talonflame is 4x weak (mega pinsir in base form is only 2x which makes it less of a problem) to Stealth Rock, is countered by Rotom-W, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Rhyperior, Tyranitar, and Heatran, and checked by Thundurus-I, CS Tran (which you see running AP or SE to remove it and zard y), and scarf drill, scarf lando-t. so it should be A rank not A+ but you are not taking in the other factors of brave bird hitting everything else, revenge killing, having u-turn utility. Mega Pinsir may not have priority brave bird (tho still quick attack for keld, scoli and chipping off last damage) but it hits like a truck and sweeps with ease since it weakens its own counters over time meaning that you only need to worry about defog (which latias and mega scizor do nicely plus the latter is good thundy-i switch in). Mega Pinsir even has the bulk it needs to set up and a great coverage move in earthquake. none of them can deal with mega pinsirs raw power. its power alone makes it amazing like mega maw and zard y, but the meta isnt as overprepared. if you wanna know why everyone has a check / counter to birdspam this why. And you cant say that the meta is overprepared for it like mega venu or mega zard y because its raw power and sweeping capabilities make even the opposing team's counters / checks a liability. It's really good.

Sorry for bad grammar and abbreviations. I'm in a rush.
 
I feel like M-Pinsir needs more support than most of the A+ mons honestly. Yeah sure it hits hard but solid team builds aren't too worried about M-Pinsir. In most cases they already check M-Pinsir as a result of checking something else that is more threatening in the tier. It's a viable option in terms of implementing it on team but I feel it's in a similar boat to Char Y. By that comparison what I mean is that it's a great mon regardless, but it has its fair share of issues that makes it pull off its job consistently similar to all the other A ranked mons.
 
I think there is a problem with the A+ rank. It's completely flooded and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks some mons in A+ rank are a good deal better than others.

For example, I think something like Azumarill is more viable than Mega-Scizor. Sure M-Scizor has some versatility, but it's usually countered by the same things no matter what. Azumarill, however, completely turns the tables on things like Thundurus if you predict it to be CB or BD when it's actually Assault Vest. They also both work well as setup sweepers too, but Azumarill will sweep you entire team with Belly Drum which only takes one turn, while M-Scizor takes several turns to boost up with Swords Dance. M-Scizor and Azumarill are very different for the most part, but Azum seems to be able to fit on all kinds of teams is much scarier when you see it on team preview.

Mega Pinsir also seems to be a notch lower than some A+ rank mons. It's usually a main component in BirdSpam teams, but Talonflames seems much better than it because it's not as predictable. I know that M-Pinsir is quite different from Talonflame as it hits way harder and is bulkier so it fulfills a slightly different role on offensive teams. However, since it always carries the exact same moveset for the most part, all you need is a faster mon to take a quick attack in order to beat it unlike mons sucha s Talonflame.

I also feel that M-Tyranitar isn't that worthy of A+. I could see it staying because it's good, but I also see it dropping since it faces competition from loads of other Dragon Dance sweepers and Mega Setup sweepers in general. I definitely notice a lot of opportunity cost because of this and it doesn't feel like something such as Greninja which you can just slap onto teams and pressure opposing offensive teams.

Others things I feel could drop include MegaGyara (only because it has some opportunity cost like MegaTar, though I think it's better than MegaTar), Regular TTar (It is very versatile, but it has a lot of weaknesses to account for. I still think it's easier to slap on teams than MegaTar), Clefable (It's wrecked by steel types, though it is scary if you let it setup and I think it could stay if it's as versatile as people say it is), Garchomp (Still good this gen, but has problems with fairies and faster mons. It's still hard to switch into so that could keep it A+), MegaVenu (This one is hard to say because on one hand, it's an amazing tank and wall, on the other though, it's not hard to get pass because the meta has adapted. Still really good though).

A lot of people are saying that mons should go up in ranks because of some quality it has, but I feel like a lot of arguments supporting the rise are just that the mon is good or usable. Some things seem a bit out of place in their rank like Amoonguss and Tornadus-T in B+ or Gengar in A. Dropping them one rank isn't saying that they're bad, but that they are less viable than things in the above rank.

The things above I suggested to drop aren't THAT much less viable than the things I think should stay in A+ and a drop within their letter grade isn't even changing the definition of their viability because they will still be A rank. It's just saying that not everything in A is on the exact same level and I feel that is a problem with A+ right now.
 
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n't that worthy of A+. I could see it staying because it's good, but I also see it dropping since it faces competition from loads of other Dragon Dance sweepers and Mega Setup sweepers in general. I definitely notice a lot of opportunity cost because of this and it doesn't feel like something such as Greninja which you can just slap onto teams and pressure opposing offensive teams.

I'll just tell you Mega Tyranitar is not dropping anytime soon. alexwolf even said so himself, discussion closed.
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Mega Tyranitar - Literally the only thing Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados have in common is that they're ridiculously bulky Dark-type set-up sweepers. As mentioned previously, their array of checks and counters is vastly different and slowly turns slimmer the more DDs they can get in (if they get a second DD in, you're p much fucked). Mega Tyranitar's bulk is absolutely vast for a set-up sweeper; with 4 HP EV investment, it reaches 342 HP/336 Def/414 SDef (Sandstorm-bolstered). When something weak to Azumarill's CB Aqua Jet lives said move, it's bulky as all fuck. Mega Tyranitar is such an amazing late-game sweeper because of its immense power, astronomical bulk and crucial Speed tier, hitting 397 Speed at +1, which is basically a positive base 131. For something with such bulk, that's fast, people. Despite having seven weaknesses, its massive uninvested bulk more than makes up for it by being able to take many hits regular Tyranitar would crumble to, on top of being faster and easier to use than Scarf Tyranitar, especially with the liberty of its moves. With all of these amazing traits, Mega Tyranitar should remain A+.
 
Others things I feel could drop include MegaGyara (only because it has some opportunity cost like MegaTar, though I think it's better than MegaTar), Regular TTar (It is very versatile, but it has a lot of weaknesses to account for. I still think it's easier to slap on teams than MegaTar), Clefable (It's wrecked by steel types, though it is scary if you let it setup and I think it could stay if it's as versatile as people say it is), Garchomp (Still good this gen, but has problems with fairies and faster mons. It's still hard to switch into so that could keep it A+), MegaVenu (This one is hard to say because on one hand, it's an amazing tank and wall, on the other though, it's not hard to get pass because the meta has adapted. Still really good though).

A generally reasonable post, but I don't agree with any of this part. Mega-Gyarados as as good as any of its alternatives, so whither the opportunity cost? Regular TTar an fill a number of roles as well as just about any alternative and is always horrible to face even if it has no support. Clefable is just amazing and only needs flamethrower to wreck most high level steels, who tend to be 4x weak to fire. Scarfchomp is still the best revenger IMO, Talonflame be damned. MegaVenu just won't die and will cause headaches for almost any team.

Each of them are at least as good as Azumarill, which you identify as your archetypical A+.

Some things seem a bit out of place in their rank like Amoonguss and Tornadus-T in B+ or Gengar in A. Dropping them one rank isn't saying that they're bad, but that they are less viable than things in the above rank
Amoongus is incredibly useful and many teams just fail against it dismally. There's no way it is too high at B+. It's a textbook example of something that is 100 times better in practice than it looks on the page.
 
If we're talking about mega pinsir, we might as well factor in that aegislash is pretty much gonna be banned and that mega pinsir will be able to run close combat now.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 171-202 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 211-249 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

That's seriously scary. I honestly share your views Magcargo 2 , I used to think mega pinsir wasn't really deserving of its rank because of all the weaknesses it seemed to have on paper. But damn I gave that thing a second chance and the motherfucker is impressive. Its really a different story in practice I find; its easy to check but I just found myself loving all the work it put in. With the highly probable banning of aegislash, close combat just really cuts down pinsir's counter list even further; only zapdos doesn't really care about this. I mean come on you could consider yourself safe with a rotom-w at 69% even if pinsir was at +2 but now you're dead? Yikes thats scary and if anything else thats better justification for it to remain at A+

Yeah, you can't deny all the support it needs, but if you actually somehow deliver all that pinsir pulls far more weight than any other mega i've seen (the only one that comes close is offensive glue mega venu)
 
I think we should wait for the Aegislash verdict before talking about Mega Pinsir just because many people think Close Combat could be a serious buff over Earthquake. Also, I kinda agree that A+ is too crowded, however imo mega tyranitar is the least worthy of it and since it's staying i dont see what else should drop.

Edit: If A+ is going to change at all i think it should be Charizard Y moving up. I DONT have time to make a good argument, but many people already explained why it should move up a page back
 
Right now the one thing that I see as unfit for A+ is Mega Scizor. This is weird because a few months ago I wanted it to be S Rank. Anyways, it's versatile, strong, bulky, and has a great typing with only weakness! However, it always gets countered by the same exact things like Skarmory, Quagsire, Charizard. Of course it can use U-turn, but of course not every team can afford to use this. For instance, Sword Dance sets often run Swords Dance / Bullet Punch / Roost / Knock Off. How can you pass up Knock Off anyways lol? I feel as if it's a phenomenal Pokemkn but it's fallen out of grace and I could see it moving down to A.
 
pinsir in a is silly, to the point where i wouldn't consider it at all. it's so dangerous and crazy to deal with. it puts a lot of pressure on skarm to run counter as otherwise it can't ohko a +2 pinsir. and with the ability to run cc, it actually ohkoes scarftar and balloon exca on the switch-in, pops rotom hard, and finishes off skarm from higher. a +2 pinsir is difficult to deal with, and most of its offensive checks are not difficult to exploit/check, espec since rotom becomes a garb answer. pinsir's return blasts holes in the tier, and is one threat that has to be very specifically accounted for (well kinda grouped with talonflame, but not entirely) on every team. tired so my thoughts are a bit jumbled but basically, crazy nuke, strong sweeper, only gets better with aegi as good as gone.

i think the two big offensive waters, azumarill and keldeo, should be considered for a push to s. these two have been consistently in the top 5 of tourney usage, dominating, and high in ladder usage for months now, and that's just because they're so damn good.

as halcyon would say, every non-megasaur offensive team is azumarill weak. for a long time i feel, azumarill has been the best a+ pokemon, espec with maw up in s semi-recently. av azumarill is the best offensive glue as it beats much of the offensive tier 1v1, and serves as an effective blanket check to things like keldeo, mega gyara, char x, greninja, lando, weakened sand exca, ttar, conk, char y (1v1), thund (1v1), etc. it actually beats every single s rank mon in a 1v1 scenario. and i haven't even gotten to cb azumarill, which is insanely difficult to switch into for almost any team. skarm is 2hkoed after rocks and a bit if you run enough speed to outrun it a la what cbb has on his team. the only solid defensive answers to this set are bulky grasses (venu, amoon, phys def celebi, ferro) and even then amoon hates knock off and ferro hates superpower. i feel like bd is rather meh in this meta, but it's still o.k effective, espec under azelf screens, and can catch unprepared teams by surprise. i even ran a sap sipper resttalk physically defensive (just a change on the spdef eo azu) set on a stall team one time that beats hera, both zards, and keldeo which is crazy. and i know other stuff is viable, like you can run jolly on bd to pop a bit weakened venus aka your best counter, or twave one of adam's innovations that lets it check sweepers and faster mons better + paraflinch/support + it spreads para easily because few para immunes switch into it. last stuff is mostly irrelevant, what i am saying is that azumarill is a versatile and devastating threat to almost every team, and a check to so many top-tier threats. this change is overdue, imo, azumarill is amazing.

keldeo i am not quite as adamant on, but i still think it might be worth considering. first of all, it was #2 in wcop overall usage after thund, which should speak for itself because thundurus is the best pokemon in the tier after aegi, which that actually puts keldeo above. the specs set is a crazy good breaker. many of its good checks/counters are actually severely flawed. venu is prone to being worn down espec with scald burns/hp flying. latis are pursuited/icy wind. azu is burnt. dnite is burnt/icy wind. i will make teams with combo av azu + latias or something, and i still will have trouble with keldeo just because azu gets burnt and latias gets trapped. usually by that point it can be revenged or whatever, but the fact is that is does an enormous number. it pulls ridiculous weight in every battle, as a big threat to offense and stall. teams typically have to pack multiple answers to it. it's an incredible bisharp check, it checks mega gyara, it is the reason sd mega mawile doesn't utterly annihilate half the offensive teams in the tier, and much more like checking crocune. and all i just did was talk about the specs set. the scarf set has gained a bit of popularity/recognition recently, as it is a great check to dders while having much less exploitable stabs than, say, terrakion or garchomp. it also has surprise factor that often gets kills against the likes of thundurus and greninja that people bring in to rk. then there's subsalac endeavor, which sounds really weird but has caught on a bit in high-level play as a massive hole opener and catching thund, ninja, etc by surprise when they can't effectively revenge it. cm is still good, particularly in my eyes subcm and hp flying cm, as a neat sweeper and check to various things. keldeo is nothing short of amazing.

going to compare them together because despite being wildly different, azu and keld compare rather similarly. feel both of these have a much better matchup against offensive teams than, say, landorus, or even char x, which has plentiful common offensive checks in comparison. they check more total and more relevant threats, boasting greater versatility, and are very difficult to deal with. they have few exploitable weaknesses, keldeo even has a resistance to sr, and take advantage of probably the best ou offensive typing overall (water). thus, azumarill and keldeo are often used as glues/require very little support to function. zard x needs more support to get anything done, while these two require minimal support to deal with their checks/counters and can in some cases even dismantle them of their own accord. they represent two of the best pokemon in the tier, i think they're probably better than lando and maybe even char x lol. belong in s.
 
Once again voicing my support with Jukain about Azumarill moving to S. I've thought about this change and was kind of waiting for someone to bring it up, honestly. It's just insane and puts so much pressure on offensive teams, which usually lack a way to perfectly stop it. It's so amazing and it's typing and Huge Power just push it over all other A+ Pokemon in my opinion. Keldeo I'm on the fence with, it's certainly amazing and dominates usage but I find it a lot easier to check than Azumarill. Just my two cents. Also, should either be pushed up what do people think of S+ / S / S-? I know it was brought up before but now the time has changed a bit with new introductions. alexwolf
 
With aegislash probably leaving the tier, azumarill will get even better as it can run superpower over knock off and really only be walled by Amoongus. I'm also gonna jump on the bandwagon for azumarill for s rank. The AV set in particular is amazing, because I usually rely on thundurus to check azumarill when I build an offensive team.
 
pinsir in a is silly, to the point where i wouldn't consider it at all. it's so dangerous and crazy to deal with. it puts a lot of pressure on skarm to run counter as otherwise it can't ohko a +2 pinsir. and with the ability to run cc, it actually ohkoes scarftar and balloon exca on the switch-in, pops rotom hard, and finishes off skarm from higher. a +2 pinsir is difficult to deal with, and most of its offensive checks are not difficult to exploit/check, espec since rotom becomes a garb answer. pinsir's return blasts holes in the tier, and is one threat that has to be very specifically accounted for (well kinda grouped with talonflame, but not entirely) on every team. tired so my thoughts are a bit jumbled but basically, crazy nuke, strong sweeper, only gets better with aegi as good as gone.

i think the two big offensive waters, azumarill and keldeo, should be considered for a push to s. these two have been consistently in the top 5 of tourney usage, dominating, and high in ladder usage for months now, and that's just because they're so damn good.

as halcyon would say, every non-megasaur offensive team is azumarill weak. for a long time i feel, azumarill has been the best a+ pokemon, espec with maw up in s semi-recently. av azumarill is the best offensive glue as it beats much of the offensive tier 1v1, and serves as an effective blanket check to things like keldeo, mega gyara, char x, greninja, lando, weakened sand exca, ttar, conk, char y (1v1), thund (1v1), etc. it actually beats every single s rank mon in a 1v1 scenario. and i haven't even gotten to cb azumarill, which is insanely difficult to switch into for almost any team. skarm is 2hkoed after rocks and a bit if you run enough speed to outrun it a la what cbb has on his team. the only solid defensive answers to this set are bulky grasses (venu, amoon, phys def celebi, ferro) and even then amoon hates knock off and ferro hates superpower. i feel like bd is rather meh in this meta, but it's still o.k effective, espec under azelf screens, and can catch unprepared teams by surprise. i even ran a sap sipper resttalk physically defensive (just a change on the spdef eo azu) set on a stall team one time that beats hera, both zards, and keldeo which is crazy. and i know other stuff is viable, like you can run jolly on bd to pop a bit weakened venus aka your best counter, or twave one of adam's innovations that lets it check sweepers and faster mons better + paraflinch/support + it spreads para easily because few para immunes switch into it. last stuff is mostly irrelevant, what i am saying is that azumarill is a versatile and devastating threat to almost every team, and a check to so many top-tier threats. this change is overdue, imo, azumarill is amazing.

keldeo i am not quite as adamant on, but i still think it might be worth considering. first of all, it was #2 in wcop overall usage after thund, which should speak for itself because thundurus is the best pokemon in the tier after aegi, which that actually puts keldeo above. the specs set is a crazy good breaker. many of its good checks/counters are actually severely flawed. venu is prone to being worn down espec with scald burns/hp flying. latis are pursuited/icy wind. azu is burnt. dnite is burnt/icy wind. i will make teams with combo av azu + latias or something, and i still will have trouble with keldeo just because azu gets burnt and latias gets trapped. usually by that point it can be revenged or whatever, but the fact is that is does an enormous number. it pulls ridiculous weight in every battle, as a big threat to offense and stall. teams typically have to pack multiple answers to it. it's an incredible bisharp check, it checks mega gyara, it is the reason sd mega mawile doesn't utterly annihilate half the offensive teams in the tier, and much more like checking crocune. and all i just did was talk about the specs set. the scarf set has gained a bit of popularity/recognition recently, as it is a great check to dders while having much less exploitable stabs than, say, terrakion or garchomp. it also has surprise factor that often gets kills against the likes of thundurus and greninja that people bring in to rk. then there's subsalac endeavor, which sounds really weird but has caught on a bit in high-level play as a massive hole opener and catching thund, ninja, etc by surprise when they can't effectively revenge it. cm is still good, particularly in my eyes subcm and hp flying cm, as a neat sweeper and check to various things. keldeo is nothing short of amazing.

going to compare them together because despite being wildly different, azu and keld compare rather similarly. feel both of these have a much better matchup against offensive teams than, say, landorus, or even char x, which has plentiful common offensive checks in comparison. they check more total and more relevant threats, boasting greater versatility, and are very difficult to deal with. they have few exploitable weaknesses, keldeo even has a resistance to sr, and take advantage of probably the best ou offensive typing overall (water). thus, azumarill and keldeo are often used as glues/require very little support to function. zard x needs more support to get anything done, while these two require minimal support to deal with their checks/counters and can in some cases even dismantle them of their own accord. they represent two of the best pokemon in the tier, i think they're probably better than lando and maybe even char x lol. belong in s.
I'll be keeping this short for now, so I apologize beforehand for not giving equally lengthy comments.

Regarding Azumarill, I could see it in S, but not because of its offenses. No, while it is undoubtedly a hugely powerful (heh) force in OU, it's slow, so it really isn't too difficult to shut down with a burn if it isn't running Facade (which if it is you better have a steel handy), but it doesn't cause leaky butthole syndrome every time it shows up in the team preview like Mega Mawile does. Its Belly Drum set is kind of archaic now, so I won't really touch that, but its CB set is really the only one that kind of scares me. The reason being is that the immediate power it brings to the table makes in incredibly difficult to wall and stuff like Quagsire and Skarmory are no longer effective checks to it. But I still don't think that the CB set makes it S-worthy alone due to it being really, really difficult to use. Your prediction has to be godlike when dealing with stuff like opposing Ferrothorn, cuz yeah you can Superpower it do death but if they have other decent checks like Aegislash (pls ban) or Suicune on the same team, picking the right move can be quite troublesome, since being choice-locked into Aqua Jet vs Ferrothorn es no bueno for Azu. The reason I'm bringing skill into the matter is that other S-Tiered mons like Lando and Thundy require next to no prediction to smash faces adequately, hence them being S to begin with. So, tl;dr, CB Azumarill requires too much personal skill compared with the other S-tierers imo to rank up with them based on offenses alone.

That being said, Azumarill doesn't only have its offenses. Its fairy/water type is one of the best defensive typings, and Azumarill has 2 excellent abilities to abuse them. Sap Sipper can be use to beat all kinds of stuff that would otherwise have a field day with the blue bunny -- Technician Breloom, Zard Y, Heracross, and a few others, while still being able to effectively check a lot of the same shit it used to be able to, albeit via stall. Thick Fat Azumarill has its uses, as it's undoubtedly the most effective Zard-X check in the game, and having two 4x resists plus an immunity to common offensive types in ice, fire, and dragon is pretty bitchin. Best example of TF Azu atm would be Dice's RestTalk Azu set from his most recent RMT. Tl;dr Azumarill can run several highly effective defensive sets in addition to his mighty offenses, and that's what makes him S worthy in my opinion.

Keldeo I think should stay in A+, tournament usage imo really isn't a great argument for moving it up, I mean yes it's a fantastic mon but it's pretty limited on what sets it can effectively use and is forced to rely on HP and Icy Wind for coverage, which, depending on the set, makes it pretty easy to wall/defensively check with shit like Mega Venu, Amoongus, phys def Gastro, phys def Ferro, defensive Azumarill, Slowbro/king, phys def Mega Amph, etc., and it's not terribly hard to check offensively with stuff like Talonflame, Slowbro, Thundy, Mega Manectric, Extrasensory AV Raikou & Greninja, Lati@s, etc., yeah a few of those are Icy Wind weak and a few can't check it as effectively if Keldeo's running a Choice Scarf, but once you figure out the set it isn't hell trying to get around it. Yeah you've got burns from scalds to worry about, but you have to worry about burns from a lot of mons that aren't as high up in the rankings (see: Rotom-W, Quagsire, Suicune, Heatran, etc.). Albeit, Keldeo does put a significant amount of offensive pressure on a team after a burn, more so than other Scalders, but there's a reason it's A+ and they're not. Tl:dr Keldeo is def a scary pony but its got a good number of checks fairly high up in the rankings that prevent it from wrecking anything and everything, and it has good, but not impeccable (and rather weak), coverage options that limit its overall damage output in a good amount of situations.

All in all, TL;DR:

Azumarill from A+ --> S (or stay in A+, could go either way for me)

Keldeo stays in A+

Edit: yeah that bit at the beginning about keeping the comments short was a total lie
 
I've been thinking about nominating Azumarill for S for a very long time, but I never felt confortable doing so, partly because MVenu is still running rampant throughout the tier, however it often ends up succumbing to repeated offensive pressure from Azumarill, especially the Banded set. The biggest thing which could hold Azu back from S is that it's rather innefective vs stall IMO, but that may be just me since I only ever use the AV set which is ridiculously good vs offensive teams (it beats Thundurus and YZard 1v1 which is just lol, and is basically offense's only switchin to Greninja). AV Azumarill is probsbly the best offensive glue in the entire game, regardless of the fact that a couple of things stop it cold, because it beats practically everything else that doesn't have WoW 1v1. The Band set is a great nuke, and while BD is honestly inferior to all its other sets IMO since you never actually use BD, Azumarill with a Sitrus Berry and 3 Attacks is still very threatening.
Azu may not look as meta-defining as the stuff currently residing in S (and it has actual hard counters that are viable which you can claim no S rank has atm), but it's still one of the easiest things to just slap on any team almost regardless of playstyle, one of the easiest things to use, needs basically no support (not that it doesn't appreciate it), has great synergy with a ton of stuff (Azu+Latias is a personal favourite of mine), deals with really powerful threats, is one of the best things to use if you have problems with offense in general, and comes with no opportunity cost or any risk really since its counters are either easy to pressure, easy to switch into, or both.
I was planning on making this nomination immediately after the Aegi ban was announced, since, as was pointed out by koista12, Aegi is pretty much the closest thing to an Azu switchin most offensive teams have, and is a serious thorn in its side in general. Same for MMaw : if it leaves, offense loses both a decent switchin and competition for "physical fairy nuke" (although I will say that Azu+MMaw is is a killer offensive core) But Jukain beat me to the punch, so I guess the gloves are off. Azumarill for S

Keldeo I'm unsure about, and this is, once again, in anticipation of the increasingly likely (especially in aw's case) upcoming bans. If Aegi and MMaw leave, Latias and Latios will skyrocket in both usage and viability (I'm thinking A+, possibly even S), which is just going to make life harder for Keldeo. But right now, it'shands down the second best thing in A+ behind Azumarill, so a rise to S isn't out of the question at all.
 
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Right now the one thing that I see as unfit for A+ is Mega Scizor. This is weird because a few months ago I wanted it to be S Rank. Anyways, it's versatile, strong, bulky, and has a great typing with only weakness! However, it always gets countered by the same exact things like Skarmory, Quagsire, Charizard. Of course it can use U-turn, but of course not every team can afford to use this. For instance, Sword Dance sets often run Swords Dance / Bullet Punch / Roost / Knock Off. How can you pass up Knock Off anyways lol? I feel as if it's a phenomenal Pokemkn but it's fallen out of grace and I could see it moving down to A.

Nah, Mega zor is a very solid pokemon. Again, I hate to really base my arguments off of a decision that has not yet been made, so please bear with me :s However I'm quite sure that aegislash will be banned as every tour player i've talked to pretty much just wants to ban it; so for the sake of my argument I'm gonna assume it is :/

So, with that out of the way, the set I have run to success is SD/bullet punch/roost/u-turn. You can indeed pass up knock off because you really only use it to get past aegislash a lot easier; u-turn or superpower provide much more benefits than knock off does in a meta without aegislash. U-turn, however, is what caught my eye. I mean think about it. Here's what I call a defensive pivot; a pokemon that can take lots of damage, move slow, and use a pivot move to reposition the team and give you momentum. How many pokemon can even do that nowadays? Lando-T and Rotom-W are incredibly predictable and really not all that bulky; its not difficult to just blast holes in that core with a simple LO thundurus. Really, the only defensive pivots in the OU tier right now are mandibuzz and mega scizor, and that's terrible! Defensive pivots are gigantic boons for balance teams that help them reposition themselves against teams and there's only two of these quality fuckers even roaming about :[

Mega Scizor makes such a fantastic defensive pivot not only for the obvious reasons (Fantastic defensive typing, reliable recovery, u-turn instead of volt switch so it can't be blocked, more defense than fucking skarmory) but also because defensive pivots are so rare that teams rarely prepare for having their momentum stolen away from them within a moments notice. Not only that, but mega zor can even act as a really great win condition once its checks are weakened; and while this guy may have a fuck ton of checks (keldeo, talonflame, fire blast garchomp, i could go on forever) it really does make up for it as it weakens those checks itself with repeated u-turns throughout the match. They may not be banded, but these u-turns aren't weak either; stab 70 base power coming off of 150 base attack isn't something just anything can shrug off. A defensive pivot that is also a win condition is rare and downright fantastic in this meta, it definitely deserves A+ and should stay there.

pinsir in a is silly, to the point where i wouldn't consider it at all. it's so dangerous and crazy to deal with. it puts a lot of pressure on skarm to run counter as otherwise it can't ohko a +2 pinsir. and with the ability to run cc, it actually ohkoes scarftar and balloon exca on the switch-in, pops rotom hard, and finishes off skarm from higher. a +2 pinsir is difficult to deal with, and most of its offensive checks are not difficult to exploit/check, espec since rotom becomes a garb answer. pinsir's return blasts holes in the tier, and is one threat that has to be very specifically accounted for (well kinda grouped with talonflame, but not entirely) on every team. tired so my thoughts are a bit jumbled but basically, crazy nuke, strong sweeper, only gets better with aegi as good as gone.

i think the two big offensive waters, azumarill and keldeo, should be considered for a push to s. these two have been consistently in the top 5 of tourney usage, dominating, and high in ladder usage for months now, and that's just because they're so damn good.

as halcyon would say, every non-megasaur offensive team is azumarill weak. for a long time i feel, azumarill has been the best a+ pokemon, espec with maw up in s semi-recently. av azumarill is the best offensive glue as it beats much of the offensive tier 1v1, and serves as an effective blanket check to things like keldeo, mega gyara, char x, greninja, lando, weakened sand exca, ttar, conk, char y (1v1), thund (1v1), etc. it actually beats every single s rank mon in a 1v1 scenario. and i haven't even gotten to cb azumarill, which is insanely difficult to switch into for almost any team. skarm is 2hkoed after rocks and a bit if you run enough speed to outrun it a la what cbb has on his team. the only solid defensive answers to this set are bulky grasses (venu, amoon, phys def celebi, ferro) and even then amoon hates knock off and ferro hates superpower. i feel like bd is rather meh in this meta, but it's still o.k effective, espec under azelf screens, and can catch unprepared teams by surprise. i even ran a sap sipper resttalk physically defensive (just a change on the spdef eo azu) set on a stall team one time that beats hera, both zards, and keldeo which is crazy. and i know other stuff is viable, like you can run jolly on bd to pop a bit weakened venus aka your best counter, or twave one of adam's innovations that lets it check sweepers and faster mons better + paraflinch/support + it spreads para easily because few para immunes switch into it. last stuff is mostly irrelevant, what i am saying is that azumarill is a versatile and devastating threat to almost every team, and a check to so many top-tier threats. this change is overdue, imo, azumarill is amazing.

keldeo i am not quite as adamant on, but i still think it might be worth considering. first of all, it was #2 in wcop overall usage after thund, which should speak for itself because thundurus is the best pokemon in the tier after aegi, which that actually puts keldeo above. the specs set is a crazy good breaker. many of its good checks/counters are actually severely flawed. venu is prone to being worn down espec with scald burns/hp flying. latis are pursuited/icy wind. azu is burnt. dnite is burnt/icy wind. i will make teams with combo av azu + latias or something, and i still will have trouble with keldeo just because azu gets burnt and latias gets trapped. usually by that point it can be revenged or whatever, but the fact is that is does an enormous number. it pulls ridiculous weight in every battle, as a big threat to offense and stall. teams typically have to pack multiple answers to it. it's an incredible bisharp check, it checks mega gyara, it is the reason sd mega mawile doesn't utterly annihilate half the offensive teams in the tier, and much more like checking crocune. and all i just did was talk about the specs set. the scarf set has gained a bit of popularity/recognition recently, as it is a great check to dders while having much less exploitable stabs than, say, terrakion or garchomp. it also has surprise factor that often gets kills against the likes of thundurus and greninja that people bring in to rk. then there's subsalac endeavor, which sounds really weird but has caught on a bit in high-level play as a massive hole opener and catching thund, ninja, etc by surprise when they can't effectively revenge it. cm is still good, particularly in my eyes subcm and hp flying cm, as a neat sweeper and check to various things. keldeo is nothing short of amazing.

going to compare them together because despite being wildly different, azu and keld compare rather similarly. feel both of these have a much better matchup against offensive teams than, say, landorus, or even char x, which has plentiful common offensive checks in comparison. they check more total and more relevant threats, boasting greater versatility, and are very difficult to deal with. they have few exploitable weaknesses, keldeo even has a resistance to sr, and take advantage of probably the best ou offensive typing overall (water). thus, azumarill and keldeo are often used as glues/require very little support to function. zard x needs more support to get anything done, while these two require minimal support to deal with their checks/counters and can in some cases even dismantle them of their own accord. they represent two of the best pokemon in the tier, i think they're probably better than lando and maybe even char x lol. belong in s.

I mostly agree with what you have to say here but azu stopping hera damn I wish
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Goddam mega heracross is the scariest piece of shit; I don't think sap sipper azu runs max defense either lol
Yeah I fully support azu for S rank I think its long overdue and I tend to slap it on basically every team I use lol its really a low risk high reward mon, just needed to correct that tiny part.

However, I disagree with keldeo to S rank. Its powerful and definitely has ways around some of its checks, but its really just too easy to soft check. Any respectable offensive or defensive team has someway to switch into keldeo atleast twice, although lati@s does have to watch out for icy wind i'll admit. While the pressure it puts on stall is rather annoying, its one of the least effective band/specs users at actually threatening stall. You need to get keldeo in safely and you REALLY need to rely on scald burns to even get past half of the things that stop keldeo, and burns only slightly annoy some mons like amoong. Like seriously you can look at a defensive teams and pretty much tell at a glance whether keldeo is gonna do much or not, and when the opposing HO teams has both a lati@s and an azu (not an uncommon sight) keldeo is really hard pressed honestly do much of anything at all.
That said it does check a fuckton of crap when kept healthy and its a true staple in the meta for the reason; but I personally just think its much easier to cover than other more threatening mons. Keldeo should stay at A+
 
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