I always thought Venomoth's banning was a little odd, since it's base stats and typing seemed to leave a lot to be desired. But now that I've actually faced it in combat I can see exactly why it was banned to Borderline. Sleep Powder and its ability makes it stupidly easy to get Quiver Dance boosts and then pass them onto a pokemon that can abuse them. Their just isn't enough in the metagame that can deal with special wallbreakers like Nidoking boosted by Quiver Dance. I look forward to it inevitably getting booted back to BL.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up
- Thread starter kokoloko
- Start date
- Status
Oh my lord is Zygarde really going to be the next test? If so can we hurry up Venemoth the ban on Venemoth is even more of a principled ban than "Am I too strong ban" than most of the suspects in my opinion so dwelling on it won't really make you change your mind thaaat much.
Im looking at this bl list(thanks to sleepless's sig) and idk what will actually end up being voted uu other than maybe hawlucha, every thing else shits on stall (which has seemed to be the criteria so far for banning stuff)
Also, do you all think that the vastness of our bl can kinda fuck up suspect testing? For instance, with Zygarde the fact the Weavile is already banned makes Z that much more of a threat as Weavile is one of its more viable checks. I dont necessarily have a solution to this but I think that it create a situation where we arent letting our meta evolve since brokeness is based on the context of our current meta. Looking at the list right now, everything on there barring 1 or 2 pokes are offensive mons, which begs the question are we banning stuff because its broken or because the shift is too awkward? Maybe if a good portion of the current bl was placed into the current meta excluding obviously broken pokes, it would be a meta shift that would make these initially broken mons the top threats instead.
Also, do you all think that the vastness of our bl can kinda fuck up suspect testing? For instance, with Zygarde the fact the Weavile is already banned makes Z that much more of a threat as Weavile is one of its more viable checks. I dont necessarily have a solution to this but I think that it create a situation where we arent letting our meta evolve since brokeness is based on the context of our current meta. Looking at the list right now, everything on there barring 1 or 2 pokes are offensive mons, which begs the question are we banning stuff because its broken or because the shift is too awkward? Maybe if a good portion of the current bl was placed into the current meta excluding obviously broken pokes, it would be a meta shift that would make these initially broken mons the top threats instead.
Broken checking/countering broken does not equal a balanced metagame. If it becomes a case of "Well, if you don't have Weavile you lose to Zygarde, so just make sure you have Weavile," then Zygarde is a problem and must go. This has been said hundreds of times over the last few months.
Trust me, Weavile would do nothing in the way of stopping Zygarde. The Sub Coil set would just continuously force Weavile in (taking hazard damage) or sweep.
Plus with enough switch in damage from sub-coil he could easily just use Extreme speed to finish off the frail Weavile.
That said Lord of Bays already makes the point of why the UU suspects is handled the way it is. The tier does not simply introduce or leave mons on the basis of them being a band aid solution to another pokemon that can also leave their qualities overshadowed by more apparent suspects, hence why they are tested individually than as a group. I think a good case and point of this is in OU recently with Deoxys-S who was very easily overshadowed by larger suspects around him when he was initially suspected the first time around. In my opinion this new approach has been far more conducive at actually weeding out suspects and is a lot more organized than the traditional ones being undertaken by other tiers, especially since it largely avoids the scenario of cascade bans that often stifle the suspect process.
I honestly don't have qualms with the way the suspects are being handled as it is speedy enough to be relevant, remember ORAS is only a few months away. In addition, the current suspect tests help in that they do not bar the complete retesting of mons in subsequent cycles, especially when new drops occur, that does provide a much better basis than an arbitrary when they feel the metagame has changed enough; which was an issue last gen as it became very difficult to say if or when the metagame has changed enough as it was much more subjective at least with cycles you have a much better basis. Besides cycles can only get shorter and shorter as the list of additional suspects dwindle.
Last edited:
fuck no, luchabird had like only two solid counters when it was in the tier (one was none other than the amazing DOUBLADE and the other was Zapdos, who was kicked up to OU and was a really unreliable counter anyway since it has the tendency to get screwed over with a crit from sky attack or acrobatics, and a flinch from the former can very well end anarchy jesus too), and after an unburden it's really hard to check without resorting to fletchinder.
also if we dump the bls back into uu it'll pretty much be an issue of "broken-beats-broken" anyway, and in that case it's a much better choice to send them back to BL, such that the meta can actually develop healthily. honestly, every BL on the list deserves to be there, with the arguable exception of Klefki and maybe Salamence if you're really going to stretch it.
I think Magnezone definitely has the potential to re-enter the tier too, with the arrival of Blissey, Goodra, Infernape and Lucario (which destroy non-scarf versions) as well as quite a few good checks around before, it looks quite manageable now, especially because of Blissey.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 243-286 (34 - 40%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery :^)
I think the next round of tests will be interesting, and I really do hope that there is at least some tweak to how they will be tested next time, as I believe kokoloko this round is still only trying to categorise what is still potentially broken based on a past conversation I had with him. Be interesting to see how things fall into place when we get into the real nitty gritty broken or not stages.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 243-286 (34 - 40%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery :^)
I think the next round of tests will be interesting, and I really do hope that there is at least some tweak to how they will be tested next time, as I believe kokoloko this round is still only trying to categorise what is still potentially broken based on a past conversation I had with him. Be interesting to see how things fall into place when we get into the real nitty gritty broken or not stages.
Knock Off boost and steel nerf.
As well as Icicle crash (though the move illegalities kinda screw you over :/)
Well knock off boost was a bigger thing since it always had the added utility of removing items.
Not to mention the fact Weavile also can operate in the current UU metagame well. In BW1/2UU, there was hardly any use for Ice types, and absolutely known for Dark except to hit ghosts, the most common of which(Chandy), Weavile couldn't stay in on. Overall, there's just less stuff that beats it in XY compared to the common Chandy, Darm, Tini, Mienshao, and et cetera last generation.
So i havent seen too many venomoth on the ladder within the last week or so, nor have i seen much discussion in this thread lately. whats the general consensus of moth?
I saw some discission on hawlucha and i think itll be interesting. Its nigh impossible to rk after unbudren boosts, but we do have sableye in the tier this time to spread WoW. I think hawlucha and diggersby are going to be the most questionable tests coming up, but thats my opinion...
I saw some discission on hawlucha and i think itll be interesting. Its nigh impossible to rk after unbudren boosts, but we do have sableye in the tier this time to spread WoW. I think hawlucha and diggersby are going to be the most questionable tests coming up, but thats my opinion...
Sorry Diggersby aint questionable... It deserves its place down there in OU it is an A- mon in viability. In UU it only gets better since it can run more sets due to a lower speed tier with more focus on bulky mons.
There are a lot more offensive threats than there were back in UU Beta, you may be surprised with the people thatvdefend the bunyy...
Scarf ape and shao avoid thr ohko from lo adamang qa and easily ohko. Mega aero checks non wild charge sets pretty easily. Diggersby is most likely broken, but itll be interesting to see how it does in tbis meta...
I agree with Machi, in UU diggersby doesn't have any viable counters. Things like the double dance set and the cb set are nearly guaranteed to do major damage to teams. Not to go back to Staraptor as that was a controversial banning, but diggy not only has comparable wallbreaking capability but the ability to sweep, quite easily at that. It has passable bulky a good speed tier to use agility with and stabs that dont necessarily need additional coverage. Its def broken
I think i've been lucky that I haven't fallen prey to a single wonderskin miss. Whimiscott really does great against venomoth with Priority Encore+U-turn. but again luck has been on my side. I believe we should take a closer look at Wonderskin rather than venomoth itself. A venomoth without wonderskin has been the same pokemon for generations. And we have better tools of dealing with it compared to the past
Venomoths the only one its broken on. Sigilyth Butterfree and Delcatty are the only others with it so I think we should avoid a complex ban for one case.
OU did a Swift Swim + Drizzle ban, while not all of the sweepers were broken ('karp, 'disc in particular)
The difference is that there were many competitve users of swift swim who would've been screwed by banning just swift swim, whereas only venomoth is screwed by wonderskin's ban.
You do realize OU is a lot more offensive based than UU so the down in UU environment is a lot kinder to Diggersby than OU by a long shot, and there are much faster scarvers as well the prominence of many strong priority attacks (Aqua Jet/Brave Bird/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch/Quick Attack - Aerilate/Sucker Punch - MMawile) that negate speed altogether. As well as a faster benchmark of speed with threats just as easily able to OHKO him, e.g. Greninja. Considering how well he manages to hold up his own there I can't say the available options in UU would make this even remotely defensible as compared to other bans in the past, hint he aint a one trick pony.
Last edited:
Drizzle + Swift Swim was a pretty big mistake IMO. Imagine you were on a ship and it's taking on water (no pun with drizzle). You see there's one hole on the deck that's shooting water, so you figure Ah, this must be the cause of the sink shipping! Yet, you fail to realize that water is actually just pouring over the sides of the boat...
Drizzle + Swift Swim was only a symptom for the real problem; Drizzle itself. Nobody wanted to say Drizzle was broken and thus get rid of it since it opened up styles. The one style that truly put me over the edge and made me leave OU for good was HO Rain teams in the early BW2 era. Politoed/Torn-T/Genesect/Keldeo were too much. Drizzle was the main problem, not Drizzle +SS, although that was one of the easiest strategies to abuse.
Complex bans don't work, they only fix one symptom, but don't handle the underlying cause. If you took Drizzle away from Politoed, it's pretty bad. But, Venomoth is a special case. You can run Tinted Lens > Wonderskin and it has a good chance of getting it's job done of QuiverPassing. So, if Venomoth is to get banned, it'll be because the accumulation of traits in Sleep Powder and QuiverPass, which is unique to Venomoth and Smeargle, not because of one ability in Wonderskin.
- Status