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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
- Start date
- Status
Call me absolutely insane but how would a core of Def Zapdos and M-Garde sound on stall? It may not be the main core of the team, but it at least looks great on paper. You could run enough speed and SpA on Garde to ko MegaCross which would alleviate a lot of offensive pressure. Thoughts?
Tbh it was a pretty bad idea. I was tired and wasn't thinking straight lol. Carry on all.
How does Venusaur, Slowbro, Victini, Rhyperior, Chansey, and Skarmory sound? I think I'm a little Lando weak honestly but Victini helps somewhat.
Is that scarf victini lol? Earth Power lando would crush it if not.
So I put together a stall team today... the first threat I wanted to cover was everything Aegislash covered, so I used doublade. It's making people surprisingly mad... Like, people are infuriated by the fact that they stopped preparing for aegi and now a ghost of the same type is there... It's like they thought they banned the typing ?_?
So this is what I've thrown together now. I have a prediction about doublade: It will either become the single best stall mon we have available or it will rise tiers to OU... The reasoning is that people are really overcompensating for aegi being gone right now and leaving the game wide open for doublade, who has better bulk and a decent move pool. The amount of medi/hera/gard is very high, but I'm also getting pinsir-mega who has reverted to CC. Esp with the usage of Mandibuzz, Amoongus, Chesnaught and some other aegi counters inevitably going to fall, doublade will be able to take advantage of the hole aegi left in a way no other mon could: It simply enters a meta that has forgotten how good the ghost/steel typing is.
I'm using double clerics on this team so I can kinda rely on Rhyperior and doublade for 90% of the match. Obv core had issues with physical eq, so I added in skarm, making me almost impossible to get swept by pinsir... The team is weak to toxic heatran right now, but I think Alomomola can pull some weight. Also just a fear of burns on Rhyperior... a status absorber would be nice.
So I put together a stall team today... the first threat I wanted to cover was everything Aegislash covered, so I used doublade. It's making people surprisingly mad... Like, people are infuriated by the fact that they stopped preparing for aegi and now a ghost of the same type is there... It's like they thought they banned the typing ?_?
Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Rest
Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 224 HP / 144 Def / 140 SpD
Calm Nature
- Toxic
- Scald
- Wish
- Protect
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Brave Bird
- Taunt
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Pursuit
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Rest
Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 224 HP / 144 Def / 140 SpD
Calm Nature
- Toxic
- Scald
- Wish
- Protect
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Brave Bird
- Taunt
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Hidden Power [Fire]
So this is what I've thrown together now. I have a prediction about doublade: It will either become the single best stall mon we have available or it will rise tiers to OU... The reasoning is that people are really overcompensating for aegi being gone right now and leaving the game wide open for doublade, who has better bulk and a decent move pool. The amount of medi/hera/gard is very high, but I'm also getting pinsir-mega who has reverted to CC. Esp with the usage of Mandibuzz, Amoongus, Chesnaught and some other aegi counters inevitably going to fall, doublade will be able to take advantage of the hole aegi left in a way no other mon could: It simply enters a meta that has forgotten how good the ghost/steel typing is.
I'm using double clerics on this team so I can kinda rely on Rhyperior and doublade for 90% of the match. Obv core had issues with physical eq, so I added in skarm, making me almost impossible to get swept by pinsir... The team is weak to toxic heatran right now, but I think Alomomola can pull some weight. Also just a fear of burns on Rhyperior... a status absorber would be nice.
How does Victini help?
It looks fine but there are two members with no recovery and one with dubious recovery (Venu), so it's very vulnerable to being worn down by entry hazards and repeated switch-ins
Rhyperior is the primary bird spam stop, something Gliscor can't catch... I considered it, but Rhyperior is also much more solid vs ZardX. The amoongus spread was to take BD Azum first so I always just stick with the same spread. I might increase it more, but I also like catching thundurus with Amoongus (Even though it was just a knock off catch for teams with chansey).
I haven't yet started polishing the EVs, so I will probably adjust everything when I finally get a chance to sit down.
I haven't yet started polishing the EVs, so I will probably adjust everything when I finally get a chance to sit down.
this is why i will ALWAYS run heracross+bisharp, crush EVERY shitty hard stall
anyways, gotta contribute to the thread if this is to stay up
how does stall beat heracross+bisharp? thats WAAYYYYY too much pressure to keep your bisharp checks alive, without them getting destroyed every time heracross comes in. I find that stall is so passive that heracross can come in on whatever it wants that isn't carrying scald, brave bird, or lava plume, and then just crush what's in front of it or crush the entire team with swords dance. clefable isn't gonna be a help because ANY prior damage means it gets 2hko'd by rock blast and it can only 2hko back w/ moonblast. you can't defog hazards lest your bisharp check get crushed by heracross, so i think that shitty hard stalls will have to revert from being so passive. it won't do you any good to be so passive when there's a threat like mega heracross. so how is stall going to adapt to such a threat? will it always be so passive and succeed? here's the things off the top of my head that don't let heracross switch in:
zard x
BB skarm
heatran
clefable
that's a small list of mons dedicated to handling mega heracross. even then, the pressure to defog is counteracted by the pressure bisharp is providing to keep skarm alive. i don't see how stall can reliably beat heracross+bisharp outside of running a blatantly offensive mon. r
also heres my heracross+bisharp team(matchup made more impossible to win 4 stall w/ lando)
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Heracross) @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Pin Missile
- Close Combat
- Rock Blast
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Bisharp) @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Azumarill) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Thundurus) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Latias) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Defog
- Healing Wish
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Landorus) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Stealth Rock
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Pin Missile
- Close Combat
- Rock Blast
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Bisharp) @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Azumarill) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Thundurus) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Latias) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Defog
- Healing Wish
CRUSH EVERY STALL (Landorus) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Stealth Rock
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this is why i will ALWAYS run heracross+bisharp, crush EVERY shitty hard stall
anyways, gotta contribute to the thread if this is to stay up
how does stall beat heracross+bisharp? thats WAAYYYYY too much pressure to keep your bisharp checks alive, without them getting destroyed every time heracross comes in. I find that stall is so passive that heracross can come in on whatever it wants that isn't carrying scald, brave bird, or lava plume, and then just crush what's in front of it or crush the entire team with swords dance. clefable isn't gonna be a help because ANY prior damage means it gets 2hko'd by rock blast and it can only 2hko back w/ moonblast. you can't defog hazards lest your bisharp check get crushed by heracross, so i think that shitty hard stalls will have to revert from being so passive. it won't do you any good to be so passive when there's a threat like mega heracross. so how is stall going to adapt to such a threat? will it always be so passive and succeed? here's the things off the top of my head that don't let heracross switch in:
zard x
BB skarm
heatran
clefable
that's a small list of mons dedicated to handling mega heracross. even then, the pressure to defog is counteracted by the pressure bisharp is providing to keep skarm alive. i don't see how stall can reliably beat heracross+bisharp outside of running a blatantly offensive mon. r
protect helps clefable cancel out the damage.
Gliscor is a pretty good option.
Other fairies like sylveon are good checks.
Mega Venu can switch into closecombat and do a lot with sludgebomb
Mew can also outspeed and burn
Ghosts like Coffagrigus work quite well.
Last 2 do hate Bisharp tho
Sure its a uphill battle. Also Mega Heracross does pretty crappy vs offense so doubt it will ever become over common.
Cool team--really reminds me of the team I crowd sourced in this thread a little earlier...one thing that team has some trouble with is any team built around Keldeo. Amoongus is the obvious switch in, but after time/prediction by the other team, it gets really worn down.
Specs Keldeo is actually one of the mons I find most troubling as it just puts a lot of pressure on your grass/poison type (it necessitates one unless you want to try stall Toxicroak, which I'm currently working on...I'll report back on it later). Because Keldeo can hit hard on both defenses, it's not easy to switch in, and if it runs teammates to either lure or outright kill your Grass/Poison, you're SOL as he will continue to wear your teams down.
Tl; dr: Keldeo really threatens current stall builds with proper team support.
One of my fav relics from ye olden days that is total sex atm is TormentTran, on mobile so don't have the set but moveset was Sub, Lava Plume, Torment, n Protect, if you can manage to get a Sub up you're golden, spam protect ever other move and stall out eith Lava Plume. Toxic is also an option but makes it total Taunt bait so more recommended you pair it with something that can use Toxic well and cover Heatrans weak spots (Skarmory, Thick Fat Azu, etc.)
Also right now Bronzong is the tits, totally checks based Garde as well as Sand Rush Exca, Lefties + Protect is good for longevity but it needs wish support to do really well, I personally use Unaware Clef as Bronzong is already Knock Off weak and Chansey pretty much beckons knock off spam
Also right now Bronzong is the tits, totally checks based Garde as well as Sand Rush Exca, Lefties + Protect is good for longevity but it needs wish support to do really well, I personally use Unaware Clef as Bronzong is already Knock Off weak and Chansey pretty much beckons knock off spam
Hell yeah, Bronong doin work.
Also I've found that HP Bird Zapdos can beat Hera if you bait the Pin Missle/CC if y'all want to give that a try.
I toyed around with TormenTran a while ago, and he just doesn't work the way he used to. The reason he was good was because in Gen IV not a lot of things could break his subs. The power creep over the past two generations has proved too much for that set to be effective in my opinion. Heatran also losing resistances to Dark and Ghost also really hurt.
I'm not really referring to Tran so much as a standalone threat, but it's great for playing around setup sweepers and monoattackers like CroCune for allowing easier switch-ins for teammates, but it can be effective by itself, as it doesn't matter hugely what can break his sub (like Garchomp w/EQ) when you can bypass that with Protect. Yeah not as good as it was in its prime but still fully capable of being used effectively, especially when provided proper support. Phys Def Thick Fat RestTalk Azu is on of the better partners for TormenTran, as is something that can handle ground types (like I mention Skarmory, although Mega Venu's nb either)
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I was mainly referring to setting up TormenTran. He is really hard to get going because of the power creep. I agree that once you set up a substitute, he can be a great asset. His biggest problem is switching in safely in this meta. Things like SubPunch Mawile, Charizard X, Mega Pinsir--they're everywhere, and you can't safely switch him in.
So continuing on with my adventures here, I've come to make some adjustments to that build I was with last time. Alomomola wasn't pulling ANY weight and so I implemented one of Yuttt's ZardY spreads (It's literally stallbreaker mew EVs on a MZardY). It's beautiful, but a lot of pressure onto defogging. Luckily, I'm running skarmory.
Rest doublade is nice. Well, you're asleep alot but it becomes hard to kill and must be respected as it sleeps because if it wakes, it can do nasty things. Not sure about sub yet, but it has come in handy to sub up on latis or other resisted hits (which there are TONS of) and the hyper voice users want nothing to do with doublade. It's solid, but it is very much a passive weapon. I'm struggling to work a lot of non-passive entities into this team. Currently, the team is a tad weak to landorus, and weak to heatran. Besides that, I'm currently very satisfied with the lack of things that come in and present a wincon to this variant. Although jpw234 recently broke this team when it ran alomomola... At the time, magma storm tran was a deadly force. Would actually need rhyperior to be at good health to take it.
I've said it a few times in the OU chat: Stall is kinda struggling to find a way through. The top tier megas at this point are all massively powerful and able to punch holes in stall (This being Mawile-M, Medi-M, Hera-M, ZardX, ZardY, GardM... and even Pinsir-M). Landorus, specific variants of Thundurus, variants of Keldeo and BDAzumarill all can be a nightmare. The style is, to my knowledge, constricted. Out of all of them, I think Mega Heracross is by far the most powerful as I can at least name counters not named doublade to the other groups. Honestly, Pandora's box needs to be closed off before I see any variety really popping up to stall... although I think Sableye could also be pretty decent right now outside of GardM.
Rest doublade is nice. Well, you're asleep alot but it becomes hard to kill and must be respected as it sleeps because if it wakes, it can do nasty things. Not sure about sub yet, but it has come in handy to sub up on latis or other resisted hits (which there are TONS of) and the hyper voice users want nothing to do with doublade. It's solid, but it is very much a passive weapon. I'm struggling to work a lot of non-passive entities into this team. Currently, the team is a tad weak to landorus, and weak to heatran. Besides that, I'm currently very satisfied with the lack of things that come in and present a wincon to this variant. Although jpw234 recently broke this team when it ran alomomola... At the time, magma storm tran was a deadly force. Would actually need rhyperior to be at good health to take it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-148637138
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-148629083
[url]http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-148678063[/URL]
Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Iron Head
- Substitute
- Rest
Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Solar Beam
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Counter
- Taunt
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Hidden Power [Fire]
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-148629083
[url]http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-148678063[/URL]
Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Iron Head
- Substitute
- Rest
Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Solar Beam
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Counter
- Taunt
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Hidden Power [Fire]
I've said it a few times in the OU chat: Stall is kinda struggling to find a way through. The top tier megas at this point are all massively powerful and able to punch holes in stall (This being Mawile-M, Medi-M, Hera-M, ZardX, ZardY, GardM... and even Pinsir-M). Landorus, specific variants of Thundurus, variants of Keldeo and BDAzumarill all can be a nightmare. The style is, to my knowledge, constricted. Out of all of them, I think Mega Heracross is by far the most powerful as I can at least name counters not named doublade to the other groups. Honestly, Pandora's box needs to be closed off before I see any variety really popping up to stall... although I think Sableye could also be pretty decent right now outside of GardM.
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Stall is struggling to find a way if you're not open to trying new shit out. Bronzong sharts all over Mega Gardevoir, Chansey still handles the Zard Y issue, and for Mega Mawile/Medicham/Pinsir/Heracross I've just started running bulky Talonflame:
Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 8 HP / 180 Atk / 68 Def / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Burd
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Roost
Patches up lots of holes, lets you one-shot Mega Pinsir + Heracross + Medicham with Burd, outspeeds Mawile by a bajillion fucktomiles an hour to burn dat ass, plus you got a SR number so 3 safe switch ins if you aren't hit, plus Taunt allows you to handle opposing stall easier so yeah, BurdStall.
Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 8 HP / 180 Atk / 68 Def / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Burd
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Roost
Patches up lots of holes, lets you one-shot Mega Pinsir + Heracross + Medicham with Burd, outspeeds Mawile by a bajillion fucktomiles an hour to burn dat ass, plus you got a SR number so 3 safe switch ins if you aren't hit, plus Taunt allows you to handle opposing stall easier so yeah, BurdStall.
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how does that talonflame switch into any of those megas tho?
To handle lot of threats i've been using
Skarm, MegaVenu, chansey, cresselia, clefable, arcanine
Its handles most of the prominent wallbreakers.
since when does talonflame switch into anything? it's not supposed to switch in to anything, it keeps them offensively in check, which does not entail switchin in anywhere
So basically you let one of those megas kill a member on your team and you send talon into revenge them? Hardly a reliable answer
What's all the speed for on that Talonflame? Seems like HP would be better.
And Ajwf , Substitute on Doublade? Seems like a real waste tbh as it adds no utility whatsoever. Sacred Sword (prevents Bisharp from getting a 100% free switch-in every time and getting nice damage on things like Heatran), Shadow Sneak (prio can come in handy for finishing off weakened things, which came up in a couple of your replays), Toxic (100% accurate, w00t) for hitting things switching in, and even Sleep Talk all seem like much better ideas and would make Doublade significantly more useful. Also, using a Sassy nature, 0 speed IV's and swapping Iron Head for Gyro Ball is a plausible option as well.
0 Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 266-314 (96 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
vs
0 Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (122 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 408-480 (147.2 - 173.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gyro Ball is much better and more "spammable" against offense, as on average it has at least 50% more power, sometimes nearly double. Most relevant slower things take pittance from Iron Head anyway so that's not much of an issue either.
And Ajwf , Substitute on Doublade? Seems like a real waste tbh as it adds no utility whatsoever. Sacred Sword (prevents Bisharp from getting a 100% free switch-in every time and getting nice damage on things like Heatran), Shadow Sneak (prio can come in handy for finishing off weakened things, which came up in a couple of your replays), Toxic (100% accurate, w00t) for hitting things switching in, and even Sleep Talk all seem like much better ideas and would make Doublade significantly more useful. Also, using a Sassy nature, 0 speed IV's and swapping Iron Head for Gyro Ball is a plausible option as well.
0 Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 266-314 (96 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
vs
0 Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (122 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 408-480 (147.2 - 173.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gyro Ball is much better and more "spammable" against offense, as on average it has at least 50% more power, sometimes nearly double. Most relevant slower things take pittance from Iron Head anyway so that's not much of an issue either.
Haven't figured out the exact spread I want yet mainly
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