Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[DoABarrelRoll]

Bringing this back (Hydreigon for B-)

I think Hydreigon should rise to B-. He is an excellent wallbreaker in this metagame, despite its not-so-high speed stat. He has a wide movepool and great attacking stats. Despite him gaining a quad-weakness to Fairy, do remember Steel-types lost their resistances to Dark. He is also outclassed a bit by Kyurem-B and Mega Garchomp thanks to their much higher attacking stats and bulk. However, he can do the following things which allow it in my eyes to be on par with Pokemon such as Victini and Weavile:
- usually outspeeds Mega Zard X since most of them run Adamant and OHKO with Draco Meteor
- can OHKO Mega Mawile with Fire Blast (252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 317-374 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
- beats Thundurus/Landorus 1-on-1 since it can live a LO Hidden Power Ice
- resists Sucker Punch and can act as an effective Bisharp check thanks to its decent bulk
- easily threatens Tyranitar with Superpower
- eliminates Excadrill with Fire Blast
- unlike Lati@s, it has no problems disposing of Ferrothorn and some Mandibuzz
- OHKOes Heatran with Earthquake, another problem for the two Latis
- is a great switch-in to Rotom-W
- outspeeds Kyurem-B and Mamoswine and can live an Ice Shard from the latter
- threatens Skarmory, Mega Heracross, Amoonguss, Quagsire, Zapdos, Mew, Mega Manectric and Slowbro
- can 2HKO Landorus-T, Chansey and most Fairy-types on the switch
- and last, but not least, has access to U-turn to scout for Fairies and switch to the appropriate counter, such as Heatran.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Ok, I would like to nominate based staraptor to B/B+. It's power is fucking insane, coupled with flying typing and fighting coverage. This makes it an INSANELY difficult pokemon to counter, with basically them being limited to Bronzong, Skarmory, and some obscure mons. It's wall breaking prowess is sky high(kek) more comparable to pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Garchomp. Also, if you think Staraptor is too weak, stop using scarf. Adamant Band is the best Staraptor set. It has power comparable to Band Kyurem B(only 7%~ weaker) and has MUCH better spammable STABs. If you can manage to get this in safely(not actually *horrifically* hard to to ground immunity, so it can come in on locked lando-t or garchomp)it can easily break something. I honestly would push for B+ because I feel it is comparable to mega medicham, but I feel that is too much of a jump for something like Staraptor. gl countering this thing with a remotely viable mon not named skarm.

bringing back staraptor to B/B+

 

[Sevifar]

Bringing this back (Hydreigon for B-)

I agree that it should rise, but I don't agree with everything you said. It's not comparable to Victini or Weavile at all, and I wouldn't say its as good as M-Medicham.

So anyway, Hydreigon. The scarf set is shit and the specs set is outclassed by Keldeo. The only good set imo is Modest LO 3 attacks + Roost. You run max SpA, enough Spe to creep base 80's or w/e you want and the rest in HP.

So why is Hydreigon B- worthy? Why would you use it over Keldeo, Char-Y or Latios?

1: It can take on a lot of things that give Keldeo, Char-Y and Latios problems.

VenuTran, Rotom, Ttar, Mawile(At +2), M-Scizor, Bisharp, Excadrill, M-Gyara, Chansey (w/prior Damage + Superpower), Ferro, Skarm.

It can beat Venutran, and Skarm + Chansey (although Chansey needs some prior damage), Talonflame, force out Lando-T (Roost heals more than U-Turn).

2: It has great synergy with setup sweepers like Mawile, Scizor and Pinsir, eliminating their counters/checks and buying them free turns.

Some examples, Hydreigon handles Venutran + Amoonguss for Mawile and Talonflame, Heatran + Skarm for Scizor. In addition, it's a magnet for Azumarill, Lati@s + Chansey, who are often setup bait for Mawile and Scizor. For Pinsir, Hydreigon destroys Rotom, Thundurus, Zapdos, Skarm, Manectric and Raikou.

3: It's very reliable, needs no support and can perform it's job consistently.

It's 92(invested)/90/90 bulk lets it take hits quite well. It finds a lot of chances to switch in and with roost, can avoid getting worn down. It dosen't need any sort of external support to do it's job, unlike Lati@s and Char-Y who are afraid of Pursuit + SR respectively.

 

[ShrekisOgre]

I like to nominate the pokemon Terrakion A to A+

, With aegi gone terrakion is not forced to run earthquake which it can now carry its other moves like x scissor, sword dance, taunt, stealth rock and poison jab.

I May sound a little crazy here but HP Ice on Terrakion is a very good filler move, Gliscor and Defensive Lando-T usually gives Terrakion a hard time but with HP Ice Terrakion can handle both with ease (Lando-T Scarf Set can be a problem to it and Gliscor Special Defensive hurts it too but its pretty rare)

With HP Ice
4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 224-265 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 208-250 (65 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 208-250 (54.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With Stone Edge
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 153-183 (47.9 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (scarf)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Landorus-T: 121-142 (31.6 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 138-164 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Gliscor: 156-185 (44 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Gliscor also carries protect which can heal itself up pretty well and HP ice can deal more alot of damage and 2HKO it well (its easier if u got SR up)

With Aegi Gone, Not Forced To Use EQ and HP Ice is a nice filler move on Terrakion I Belive This Will Help Terrakion To Be A+ Rank.

 

[Nabilla Benattia]

I like to nominate the pokemon Terrakion A to A+

, With aegi gone terrakion is not forced to run earthquake which it can now carry its other moves like x scissor, sword dance, taunt, stealth rock and poison jab.

I May sound a little crazy here but HP Ice on Terrakion is a very good filler move, Gliscor and Defensive Lando-T usually gives Terrakion a hard time but with HP Ice Terrakion can handle both with ease (Lando-T Scarf Set can be a problem to it and Gliscor Special Defensive hurts it too but its pretty rare)

With HP Ice
4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 224-265 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 208-250 (65 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 208-250 (54.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With Stone Edge
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 153-183 (47.9 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (scarf)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Landorus-T: 121-142 (31.6 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 138-164 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 28+ Def Gliscor: 156-185 (44 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Gliscor also carries protect which can heal itself up pretty well and HP ice can deal more alot of damage and 2HKO it well (its easier if u got SR up)

With Aegi Gone, Not Forced To Use EQ and HP Ice is a nice filler move on Terrakion I Belive This Will Help Terrakion To Be A+ Rank.

Hp ice is already a common set lol

But I agree with you, although in my opinion the stealth rock lead is the best terrakion set, almost guaranteeing rocks AND momentum for offensive teams (as well as out speeding lead garchomp), and synergizes well with bisharp offensively as well, giving a good hazard core for offense to run, and being useful later in the match because of it's high speed and powerful stab moves it can revenge some bulky attackers and can hurt walls, as well as taunt it's way through annoying defensive balance mons like ferrothorn. It doesn't have the best matchup against stall, but it can reliably set rocks and beat mons like heatran and skarm (taunt) so that's something. Ultimately if a team wants a suicide lead that can do more than just set rocks it's probably the best in the post Deoxys meta game and that gives it it's A+ viability.

 

[ShrekisOgre]

But I agree with you, although in my opinion the stealth rock lead is the best terrakion set, almost guaranteeing rocks AND momentum for offensive teams (as well as out speeding lead garchomp), and synergizes well with bisharp offensively as well, giving a good hazard core for offense to run, and being useful later in the match because of it's high speed and powerful stab moves it can revenge some bulky attackers and can hurt walls, as well as taunt it's way through annoying defensive balance mons like ferrothorn. It doesn't have the best matchup against stall, but it can reliably set rocks and beat mons like heatran and skarm (taunt) so that's something. Ultimately if a team wants a suicide lead that can do more than just set rocks it's probably the best in the post Deoxys meta game and that gives it it's A+ viability.[/quote]

just like to point out more cool things for good ol terrakion :P

 

[Clone]

Gonna make a proposal. Don't expect much support, but it's worth a shot.

Nominating Nidoking to C-/C

Nidoking doesn't seem like he has any business in OU, but whenever I get bored I make a random ass alt and ladder with an underrated poke. After using Nidoking for a bit, I realized that he had some potential to carry his own weight. With a Scarf attached, he's able to outspeed +1 DNite and Bulky DD Zard X (among other things) and KO them. Thanks to Sheer Force and a decent STAB Combo, he's able to beat some major threats in OU. With a moveset of Sludge Wave / Earth Power / Ice Beam / Fire Blast | Focus Blast, he's able to beat some things that the premier Sheer Force user, Lando, can't. While Earth Power and Focus Blast (if it's chosen) hit the same things, Ice Beam, Sludge Wave, and the potential Fire blast allow Nidoking to muscle past some things that Lando simply can't touch. SpDef Gliscor, a mon that walls Lando to death, cannot hope to touch Nidoking thanks to Ice Beam obliterating him (can't calc, but it's a OHKO w/ some prior damage iirc). CBBNite is also beaten by Nidos Ice Beam, which is another thing that walls Lando. (Mega) Scizor and Ferrothorn are roasted by Fire Blast, as well as Skarm who's OHKOed with a bit of prior damage (Focus Blast is a 2HKO, but let's face it, Focus Miss fucks us over when we need it the most). Sludge Wave is also able to fuck over Sylveon, Clefable, and Azu (on the switch). I'm saying this because even though Lando 2HKOes them with Earth Power, he still takes a nice chunk of damage from Moonblast/Hyper Voice, while Nidoking doesn't give a fuck thanks to his poison typing.

Speaking of typings, Nidokings secondary poison typing gives him a fairy and fighting resist, which gives him a few switch in opportunities vs. certain threats. It also allows him to avoid that nasty 4x weakness to Ice that Lando has, which allows him to take a few random HP Ices better. This also allows him to resist both of Terrakions STABs, which very few pokes, and even less OU viable ones can boast. Given the recent Aegi ban, Terrakion is no longer forced to run EQ, so Nidoking basically gets a free switch (even HP Ice doesn't do jack shit). I could go on, but tl;dr having a secondary poison typing is pretty useful.

Of course, Nidoking has his downfalls. Base 85 speed isn't that great, which pretty much forces him to run a scarf. Scarf does allow him to beat some things, but potentially being choice locked into the wrong move is always a momentum killer. Then there's the fact that Lando does pretty much the same job as Nidoking while having more power, the ability to run a LO, and a higher base speed. Speaking of which, Nidokings Special attack leaves much to be desired, and can be somewhat disappointing since he can't (usually) run a LO like in UU, which takes away from his potential power.

All in all, Nidoking fits the bill for a C rank mon nicely. He's outclassed in some aspects, but he has some traits that outshine other mons who fill this role and can hold his own in OU. He lacks the power of Lando, but makes up for it in coverage options that would give Lando a wet dream if he has them. I'm not pushing for S, A, or B, so the whole Nidoking is outclassed blah blah blah argument is already acknowledged and taken into account. When there's shit like Wobbuffet and Venomoth there, I don't see a problem with Nidoking joining them.

So yeah, Nidoking for C-/C pls

 

[TURBODERP]

Bronzong def needs to be ranked, totally shuts down Sand Rush Exca and Mega Gard, two really threatening pokes atm

Also Jukain while Toxic is tempting to put on Zongers, Protect really is the better option here, other mons can run toxic much better (like Quag) cuz Zong doesn't have instant recovery to patch up the hit you're gonna take when using Toxic. Set I use is 248 HP / 4 Atk / 88 Def / 168 SDef, Sassy nature 0 speed IVs ofc with SR - EQ - Gyro - Protect, if you're interested

Yeah Zong has a niche role but it's a pretty fucken stout niche, I'd say start it out in C- and see where it goes from there (don't put it in the same tier as Mobama pls)

Just wondering, why those particular EV's (sans speed, mainly wondering about the 88 defense)?

 

[Worthlessnoob]

Gonna make a proposal. Don't expect much support, but it's worth a shot.

Nominating Nidoking to C-/C

Nidoking doesn't seem like he has any business in OU, but whenever I get bored I make a random ass alt and ladder with an underrated poke. After using Nidoking for a bit, I realized that he had some potential to carry his own weight. With a Scarf attached, he's able to outspeed +1 DNite and Bulky DD Zard X (among other things) and KO them. Thanks to Sheer Force and a decent STAB Combo, he's able to beat some major threats in OU. With a moveset of Sludge Wave / Earth Power / Ice Beam / Fire Blast | Focus Blast, he's able to beat some things that the premier Sheer Force user, Lando, can't. While Earth Power and Focus Blast (if it's chosen) hit the same things, Ice Beam, Sludge Wave, and the potential Fire blast allow Nidoking to muscle past some things that Lando simply can't touch. SpDef Gliscor, a mon that walls Lando to death, cannot hope to touch Nidoking thanks to Ice Beam obliterating him (can't calc, but it's a OHKO w/ some prior damage iirc). CBBNite is also beaten by Nidos Ice Beam, which is another thing that walls Lando. (Mega) Scizor and Ferrothorn are roasted by Fire Blast, as well as Skarm who's OHKOed with a bit of prior damage (Focus Blast is a 2HKO, but let's face it, Focus Miss fucks us over when we need it the most). Sludge Wave is also able to fuck over Sylveon, Clefable, and Azu (on the switch). I'm saying this because even though Lando 2HKOes them with Earth Power, he still takes a nice chunk of damage from Moonblast/Hyper Voice, while Nidoking doesn't give a fuck thanks to his poison typing.

Speaking of typings, Nidokings secondary poison typing gives him a fairy and fighting resist, which gives him a few switch in opportunities vs. certain threats. It also allows him to avoid that nasty 4x weakness to Ice that Lando has, which allows him to take a few random HP Ices better. This also allows him to resist both of Terrakions STABs, which very few pokes, and even less OU viable ones can boast. Given the recent Aegi ban, Terrakion is no longer forced to run EQ, so Nidoking basically gets a free switch (even HP Ice doesn't do jack shit). I could go on, but tl;dr having a secondary poison typing is pretty useful.

Of course, Nidoking has his downfalls. Base 85 speed isn't that great, which pretty much forces him to run a scarf. Scarf does allow him to beat some things, but potentially being choice locked into the wrong move is always a momentum killer. Then there's the fact that Lando does pretty much the same job as Nidoking while having more power, the ability to run a LO, and a higher base speed. Speaking of which, Nidokings Special attack leaves much to be desired, and can be somewhat disappointing since he can't (usually) run a LO like in UU, which takes away from his potential power.

All in all, Nidoking fits the bill for a C rank mon nicely. He's outclassed in some aspects, but he has some traits that outshine other mons who fill this role and can hold his own in OU. He lacks the power of Lando, but makes up for it in coverage options that would give Lando a wet dream if he has them. I'm not pushing for S, A, or B, so the whole Nidoking is outclassed blah blah blah argument is already acknowledged and taken into account. When there's shit like Wobbuffet and Venomoth there, I don't see a problem with Nidoking joining them.

So yeah, Nidoking for C-/C pls

Nidoking is pretty bad. Beating Gliscor and CBBnite isn't good enough for it to be used over Landorus especially because running SpDef Gliscor and CBBnite are mainly to beat things like Landorus. Plus, Landorus can run HP Ice. It's also inferior to Landorus as a scarfer because it's not as powerful nor as fast though Landorus isn't even a good scarfer itself. If you really want the resists that Nidoking offers and the ability to easily beat Skarmory and Ferrothron then just use Mega-Venusaur.

Nidoking isn't outclassed in some aspects, it's outclassed in all aspects so I don't agree with anything more than a D-rank and that's pushing it.

 

[Aragorn the King]

long list

Bringing Bronzong back up. It handles Mega Garde + Sand, has great mixed defenses, a decently powerful attack, TR, Dual Screens, and SR all to boast. It's only big problem is the lack of recovery. Similarly, I think Doublade and maybe Jirachi should be ranked. Doublade beats Heracross, Gardevoir, Pinsir, and Medicham, which is extremely useful for a defensive team. I know Jukain thinks it's bad and niche as hell, but it's really an effective mon to cover Heracross mostly. Also, Jirachi can be defensive or offensive, both of which cover Gardevoir, KyuB, and some other threats. It's less bulky than Bronzong and has a generally inferior ability, but does have recovery, which is nice. Right now I can't picture a ranking for any of the three. Perhaps I'm overrating them, but a defensive Pokemon with no opportunity cost that beats Heracross, Gardevoir, Pinsir, and Medicham is very useful (Doublade), and so are the others.

Also, I think everything regarding Azumarill has been covered. The S rank has switched from being the rank of the brokens to the rank of the exceptionally good, and I think it's clear Azumarill belongs there. I'd also like to give my support for Keldeo to S. It needs less support than Landorus, has more power, and has defensive utility for the team, at the trade off of having two common switch ins that will basically always beat it: Venusaur and Amoonguss. However, those two beat Azumarill 100% of the time, so two well defined counters shouldn't be enough to stop something from going S. Keldeo is an incredibly good mon now that needs little support, and is clearly S rank imo. Everything w/ Mamoswine has pretty much been covered too; it clearly belongs in A rank. Starmie is a good underrated Poke that deserves to move up to B-/B. It's a solid offensive spinner that also has a niche but effective defensive set.

Clefable I think should stay A+. It's a Pokemon that I always think about when teambuilding; not preparing for Clefable will be devastating whenever you face a team with it. Its defensive sets, thanks to its movepool and abilities, are fantastic, and its CM sets are in my opinion even better. It belongs with top tier threats like Mega Gyarados and Greninja. Azelf is the only suicide lead for rain teams, and a great suicide lead and dual screener outside of rain. It's hardly outclassed by anything (outside of completely offensive roles), and I think it belongs in either the B- or B rank.

Charizard-Y is a spectacular wallbreaker that also has a great defensive set. Rocks keep it in check, but its coverage, power, and access to WoW and Roost make it great now. Scarf Tyranitar is cool as a trapper, but faces competition and is incredibly slow. Band Tar is obviously slower, and is surprisingly easy for bulky waters + grounds to switch in on. Smooth Rock is a good set, but in all honesty I'd rather use Hippo on a dedicated sand team. Politoed belongs in A- for its obvious ability to make rain teams as threatening as they are. Its stats are average, but are enough for it to do what it needs to do. It also has a great offensive and support movepool that allow it to help out its rain team.

Alomomola is almost as defining of stall as Slowbro is. Both are very bulky Waters w/ Regenerator. However, Alo can pass huge wishes at the cost of having no offensive presence or 1 turn recovery, like Slowbro. It belongs in B+, showing that it's about on par with Amoonguss and Suicune on stall teams. MHera belongs in A- because it's such a solid wallbreaker. No need for any other comments.Gardevoir is a terrifying Pokemon to face now, since defensive teams have so little to counter/check it, outside of Victini and Doublade (who are underrated, of course). Gardevoir boasts immense power and special bulk and workable speed for a wall breaker. It's just a mon that's so hard to switch into, and I think it fits betting in A than A-.

Slowbro is a fantastic defensive Pokemon now that is basically the #1 switch in to Charizard-X. Its physical bulk is absolutely absurd, and its special bulk and special attack aren't too shabby either. Thanks to Slack Off + Regenerator, it's known to be impossible to kill. It walls Mega Medicham, who's very threatening now, and is basically one of the four go-to Water-types on stall teams (Slowbro, Alomomola, Suicune, Quagsire), and in my opinion it's the best. Medicham is an extremely good wallbreaker now, as one of its major roadblocks has left. It's on par with Diggersby, who is deserving of A-, as both are extremely hard hitters that terrorize teams. I think it being in B+, since it isn't as mediocre as the other Pokemon there. Not saying that B+ mons are bad, it's just that it doesn't fit in. Victini is really good now since StallTini has become popularized. It's becoming more popular on defensive teams for a good reason; it counters Gardevoir and checks Medicham and Mawile, something incredibly useful. A SR Weakness is painful, but it still survives.

Cresselia is a really good Pokemon now, as it really is the best way for stall to avoid getting 6-0'd by CM Landorus. Its bulk is immense, such that even an Adamant Pin Missile from Mega Heracross only has a 6% chance to OHKO it. Not that it will be in that situation often, but it's still lovely. It's able to beat basically everything without a Dark/Ghost/Bug move, and even some with one, since coverage Knock Offs and U-turns do almost nothing to it. It also has Trick Room and Lunar Dance for added utility, but its standard set is what I think is best. It belongs in C+, or even B-. Next, Celebi is a bit underrated. Its specially defensive set is great for handling Landorus and Keldeo, and its offensive sets are good for either the boosting move or the recovery. It belongs in C+ or B-. Lastly, Mew is SO good right now, it isn't even funny. Its stallbreaking set cripples many teams at the start of the game. It's notorious for never dying, and it frankly never stops annoying teams it's put up against. I really truthfully honestly think it's on the same level as Landorus-T and Gliscor, and so I'd put it in A rank. If that's too extreme, I guess A- could work too.

Latias and Latios also greatly improve from an Aegi-less metagame. Latios is a powerhouse, and is a great check to Landorus and Keldeo on offensive teams. Latias can check those mons better, and also has Healing Wish utility, at the cost of some power. Both are great now, and if Mawile gets banned, they will become even greater. To be honest in a metagame without Mawile I could see both in S, but that isn't now. Now, they both belong in A+. Terrakion is also amazing in this metagame, as it doesn't have to waste a moveslot on EQ anymore. Now with the ability to use Taunt, SR, HP Ice, Iron Head, and even Quick Attack and X-Scissor, it's a much more effective mon. Its choiced sets are much harder to check now, and it belongs in A+ Rank.

Mega Scizor is absolutely nowhere near as threatening as the other Pokemon in the A+ rank. It belongs with the good Pokemon in A rank that aren't quite as threatening as those in A+. Scizor finds it hard to compete in a metagame in which Mega Scizor exists. Its Choice Band set is good, but nowhere near as good as Amoonguss or Mega Garchomp, and so doesn't belong in the same rank. Quagsire is still a good Pokemon, but stall tends to only be able to use one bulky water, and recently Alomomola, Slowbro, and Suicune have been gaining popularity over Quagsire. It still can provide utility for a team, but it isn't at the same level as Suicune as a bulky water, imho.

Zapdos is cool mon on bulky offensive teams, since it combines a Pinsir check and a hazard remover in one. However, its stats often let it down, and in general most teams would rather run Thundurus + Excadrill than Zapdos. Conkeldurr is really bad now, there's no way getting around that. So many Pokemon make its like hell, and the only Pokemon off the top of my head that it is great against is Kyurem-B, who is drastically falling in popularity. I truthfully view it as a C+ Pokemon, as its very mediocre and can be the right fit on some teams, but usually isn't worth the choice. It actually isn't outclassed by anything, it just isn't great. It being in the same rank as Lucario or Kingdra is 100% wrong. Lastly, Sylveon is a Pokemon that is generally outclassed by Clefable. Hyper Voice + much better special bulk is enough to use it on some teams, and I think it's better than other C+ mons, and better than Conk, while worse than B- mons. I'm not exactly sure where I'd rank it, tbh.

Manaphy deserves to stay where it is. This is probably my most controversial thing I'm going to say. It has three sets: CM, TailDance, and TD + 3 attacks, which all function differently. Its CM set I think is on par with Suicune's, maybe a little worse, but the other two sets push it above. Its Tail Glow Rain Dance set is very underrated and breaks through stall teams well. Its main trouble is against, well, nothing. It has no outright flaws, it's just kinda of a jack off all trades mon. Rotom-W also should stay where it is, since it's a great glue mon of bulky offensive teams. Nothing else much to say. Gengar doesn't belong in the same ranking as Gliscor, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, and (hopefully) Mew. It's a good mon, but it just doesn't boast enough for offensive teams to constantly use it. It isn't outclassed, it just doesn't bring enough to the table to be a standard mon. I think it belongs in A- or B+.

[URL='http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/648.shtml']Another thing I'd like to add is Meloetta. Meloetta was ranked, but then unranked. However, I think this should be changed. I know usage isn't a good solo argument, but I won't use it alone. In July, Meloetta was OU in high level Showdown stats. Clearly there's something people are missing when looking at this Poke. Meloetta has two sets, SubCM and AV, both of which have a niche in OU. AV has absurd special bulk, and is able to handle most every special attacker in the tier. It also is very powerful, which is something that other special walls lack. Its much more popular set is SubCM, which is able to come in on defensive pokemon, Psychic-types, and Ghost-types, use Substitute, and proceed to dominate. It's limited, in that depending on whether it uses Hyper Voice, Shadow Ball, or Focus Miss, it will be walled by some Pokemon. However, do to its respectable speed and physical bulk and immense power + special bulk coming from the SubCM set and even more immense special bulk coming from the AV set, I think it should be moved back to D rank at least.[/URL]

Hawlucha is actually much better now. Halcyon started using the SubSD set with a Sitrus Berry, and it's impressed me. It's easy to get the +2 boost in speed, and almost as easy to get the boost in attack. Its dual STAB coverage is great, and it's surprisingly powerful, despite its low attack, thanks to it often being Adamant and the high BP of its attacks. It's not great, but it's underrated, and is on par with Chandelure and Krookodile. Zygarde seems to me to be a weird Pokemon to have in the C rank; it has no true niche. Sub Coil sounds interesting, but it struggles do to its common special weaknesses as well as its low power. It also has Dragon Dance, which seems nice with STAB EQ. But, its EQ is barely weaker than Dragonite's and Charizard-X's. I may be missing something, but I'm unsure as to why we haven't given this the Vaporeon treatment, or at least the Roserade treatment. Nidoking is another mon I really don't think should be ranked. Its only advantage of Landorus-I is Ice Beam, but Landorus can run HP Ice to handle Gliscor just fine. Nidoking loses out on so much power, so much speed, and some bulk for Ice Beam, and I honestly don't think it's ever worth it. It does lack 4MSS, unlike Lando, so I guess it may be okayish. It's better than most D ranked mons, so it may actually fit well.

Toxicroak has a decent niche on rain teams, and is even usable on non-rain teams as a check to Keldeo, Clefable, Breloom, and Azumarill, and in my opinion is worth a ranking. I'm not sure where, but at least D. Staraptor is also a good Pokemon; without Aegislash, only Doublade resists everything. It's super strong and has decent speed, and I think it's worth considering for B/B+ rank. Hydreigon is powerful and bulky, but unfortunately lacks a huge niche in OU. It's thus somewhat mediocre, despite its fantastic coverage. I think it belongs with the mediocre but decent Pokemon like Togekiss and Infernape in C+.

Crawdaunt is a solid Pokemon, and I didn't agree to its demotion earlier. It's powerful, and that's all it needs to be considered for B- again. Its Knock Off and Crabhammer break walls amazingly, and its Aqua Jet allows it to act as a solid revenge killer. It also has SD, which allows it to act as a more powerful but more frail and slow Diggersby. Nothing has changed recently in its favor, but I don't think it belongs in the mediocre but usable ranking if it's superior to them. Sharpedo however has no real niche in OU. It really should be D rank or unranked. Espeon has an interesting stallbreaking set, but it's far too niche for C+. It belongs in C or C-.

Magnezone is really good now, and I think it's always been rather underrated. It has Specs, Scarf, and Magnet Rise sets, all of which are very cool and viable in OU. I think it deserves B or B- rank for its ability to support Pokemon by removing Steel types and for its ability to check Bird spam and Excadrill, depending on its set. Heatran's offensive sets, mainly its Scarf set, are very effective now. Additionally, it's also viable on stall teams thanks to its great typing and stats. It can set SR reliably, as well as check many good mons in OU. Easy A+ for the most used mon in OU.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Just curious, what set makes you think Gengar is anything less than A?

 

[Aragorn the King]

Just curious, what set makes you think Gengar is anything less than A?

I'll quote Jukain:

gengar isn't really that good. from my experiences lo sets are mediocre at best, and really the only especially threatening/good set is subwisp taunt. it's a decent stallbreaker, but with the presence of things like knock off spdef gliscor, spdef charizard x, and heatran, it's not nearly as good at this role as it once was. it also faces heavy competition with mew, which trades real offensive capabilities for knock off, a lot of bulk, and thus the ability to dismantle many offensive, balanced, and stall teams alike. i never really thought gar deserved a, it sure doesn't now.

Basically what he said is all true. Three common Pokemon on stall teams, Charizard-X, Heatran, and Gliscor, don't care at all about Gengar, and Gengar can't do anything to threaten them or to prevent them from switching in. Additionally, Mew is superb now, and using Gengar as your stallbreaker limits you from using Mew, who has much better bulk, and thus the ability to check stuff like Medicham, reliably recovery, and Knock Off. I was going to bring up spin blocking as an argument for Gengar, but the three spinners viable in OU OHKO it, so it isn't really a reliable spin blocker. It faces competition from Mew + isn't as effective as it once was thanks to the teams it's supposed to beat starting to use Pokemon that beat it. It's by no means bad, but fits better in with similar Pokemon like Thundurus-T and Scolipede, or maybe even Kyu-B + Chansey, than it does with the hippo god or Rotom-W.

Also just to say I added Tran to my list.

 

[Sandoori]

Another thing I'd like to add is Meloetta. Meloetta was ranked, but then unranked. However, I think this should be changed. I know usage isn't a good solo argument, but I won't use it alone. In July, Meloetta was OU in high level Showdown stats. Clearly there's something people are missing when looking at this Poke. Meloetta has two sets, SubCM and AV, both of which have a niche in OU. AV has absurd special bulk, and is able to handle most every special attacker in the tier. It also is very powerful, which is something that other special walls lack. Its much more popular set is SubCM, which is able to come in on defensive pokemon, Psychic-types, and Ghost-types, use Substitute, and proceed to dominate. It's limited, in that depending on whether it uses Hyper Voice, Shadow Ball, or Focus Miss, it will be walled by some Pokemon. However, do to its respectable speed and physical bulk and immense power + special bulk coming from the SubCM set and even more immense special bulk coming from the AV set, I think it should be moved back to D rank at least.

I could be completely wrong here, but every time I saw a Meloetta being used it was physically defensive SubCM with Shadow Ball+Psyshock, which tells me it was being used as anti-Aegislash thanks to its own Shadow Ball immunity, neutrality to its other coverage moves, and a faster Sub to block Toxic. With Aegislash gone, so is that niche, which I'd imagine is why it went from D→Unranked.

 

[Clone]

Nidoking is pretty bad. Beating Gliscor and CBBnite isn't good enough for it to be used over Landorus especially because running SpDef Gliscor and CBBnite are mainly to beat things like Landorus.

exactly. They're meant to beat Lando, yet Nidoking has no problems with them. So I don't see your logic here. If a mon beat things that are supposed to beat his superior, then surely he has something going for him, right?

Plus, Landorus can run HP Ice.

He can, sure. He just likes Knock Off, Rock Polish, Calm Mind, or Focus Blast more.

It's also inferior to Landorus as a scarfer because it's not as powerful nor as fast though Landorus isn't even a good scarfer itself.

I already addressed that Lando has more power. And how is Nidoking an inferior scarfer if Lando is a 'bad scarfer' himself? You're contradicting yourself there bud.

If you really want the resists that Nidoking offers and the ability to easily beat Skarmory and Ferrothron then just use Mega-Venusaur.

Mega Venu doesn't even beat Skarm easily ?_? HP Fire is cool and all, but Skarm outdamages with Brave Bird and has roost. This isn't even mentioning the fact that Venusaur has a completely different role than Scarfed Nidoking.

Nidoking isn't outclassed in some aspects, it's outclassed in all aspects so I don't agree with anything more than a D-rank and that's pushing it.

It's like you didn't even read the post. Nidoking has resistances and coverage moves that Lando would kill for. I'm not saying Lando is inferior or that Nidoking is better. I'm just saying that Nidoking has a few perks over him that carve him a niche.

Also Nidoking is way better than shit like Mega Obama and Mantine lol

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

I'll quote Jukain:

Basically what he said is all true. Three common Pokemon on stall teams, Charizard-X, Heatran, and Gliscor, don't care at all about Gengar, and Gengar can't do anything to threaten them or to prevent them from switching in. Additionally, Mew is superb now, and using Gengar as your stallbreaker limits you from using Mew, who has much better bulk, and thus the ability to check stuff like Medicham, reliably recovery, and Knock Off. I was going to bring up spin blocking as an argument for Gengar, but the three spinners viable in OU OHKO it, so it isn't really a reliable spin blocker. It faces competition from Mew + isn't as effective as it once was thanks to the teams it's supposed to beat starting to use Pokemon that beat it. It's by no means bad, but fits better in with similar Pokemon like Thundurus-T and Scolipede, or maybe even Kyu-B + Chansey, than it does with the hippo god or Rotom-W.

Also just to say I added Tran to my list.

Did he explain how LO sets are mediocre? imo the sub wisp set is outdated and its the best offensive user of ghost STAB now that aidsgislash is gone.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I could be completely wrong here, but every time I saw a Meloetta being used it was physically defensive SubCM with Shadow Ball+Psyshock, which tells me it was being used as anti-Aegislash thanks to its own Shadow Ball immunity, neutrality to its other coverage moves, and a faster Sub to block Toxic. With Aegislash gone, so is that niche, which I'd imagine is why it went from D→Unranked.

It was unranked when Aegi was still in the tier, so I'm not certain that that is why it was unranked. It couldn't handle physical Aegi well, but no point in arguing that now :) Its AV set is a decent way to handle Mega Garde, and its CM set is incredibly bulky as well and is nice to set up to slowly destroy teams. If that Meloetta nomination seems outrageous now, I guess it may be. I've seen it used well in high level play, but I guess that alone isn't necessarily worth a ranking.

Did he explain how LO sets are mediocre? imo the sub wisp set is outdated and its the best offensive user of ghost STAB now that aidsgislash is gone.

Lol Aidsgislash. Jukain didn't specifically say why they were mediocre, but I agree and think I can try to explain. It's pretty weak, even with a LO, and as standalone special attacker it's outclassed severely by Greninja, Latios, and Latias, who either are more powerful, have defensive utility, or other utility. Greninja only has Destiny Bond make its LO sets anything other than generic, and I'll admit, it's not a bad move on it. But, Gengar is handled easily by priority, which won't activate DB if used after. It just seems like a niche but decent set now. Feel free to prove me wrong though; I'm not necessarily adamant about it dropping. It just seems out of place in a sub ranking with top tier mons like Hippowdon.

 

[AM]

Did he explain how LO sets are mediocre? imo the sub wisp set is outdated and its the best offensive user of ghost STAB now that aidsgislash is gone.

To be honest Gengar isn't that great. Like it's cool that it's a relevant ghost type in the tier, it has a couple of things going for it, but that doesn't really make it more viable than things like gliscor and ferrothorn, who generally have much more better uses.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

It was unranked when Aegi was still in the tier, so I'm not certain that that is why it was unranked. It couldn't handle physical Aegi well, but no point in arguing that now :) Its AV set is a decent way to handle Mega Garde. If that Meloetta nomination seems outrageous, I guess it may be. I've seen it used well in high level play, but I guess that alone isn't necessarily worth a ranking.

Lol Aidsgislash. Jukain didn't specifically say why they were mediocre, but I agree and think I can try to explain. It's pretty weak, even with a LO, and as standalone special attacker it's outclassed severely by Greninja, Latios, and Latias, who either are more powerful, have defensive utility, or other utility. Greninja only has Destiny Bond make its LO sets anything other than generic, and I'll admit, it's not a bad move on it. But, Gengar is handled easily by priority, which won't activate DB if used after. It just seems like a niche but decent set now. Feel free to prove me wrong though; I'm not necessarily adamant about it dropping. It just seems out of place in a sub ranking with top tier mons like Hippowdon.

Its Special Attack is the same as Latios', it has some degree of staying power, unlike Latios, and the only priority it's weak to can be played around with destiny bond, and even if you predict destiny bond, you either sacrifice your mon to take out Gengar or let Gengar take out your mon. It can also run Taunt for some stall breaking capabilities, and it has superb neutral coverage on the tier. I don't think LO is anything less than A. Sub wisp might be A-, but LO isn't. It's the fact that it can trade on things that aren't really strong priority users(Talonflame, etc)or really strong attackers faster than it(thundurus and uhh...greninja?) and the fact it's ridiculously hard for offensive teams to switch into(like seriously, everything i can think of on an offensive team is either 2HKO'd or DBonded). I honestly don't see how it can go down to A-. And if it does drop, it better not drop any further.

 

[Worthlessnoob]

exactly. They're meant to beat Lando, yet Nidoking has no problems with them. So I don't see your logic here. If a mon beat things that are supposed to beat his superior, then surely he has something going for him, right?

This is the problem with Nidoking. Landorus can just change up his set to do anything Nidoking may try to. Nobody is going to use both on the same team because they overlap each other so you're likely going to choose one or the other. If I wanted to use Nidoking for Ice Beam, I could easily accomplish the same thing with HP Ice Lando.

I already addressed that Lando has more power. And how is Nidoking an inferior scarfer if Lando is a 'bad scarfer' himself? You're contradicting yourself there bud.

Scarf Lando is unimpressive, but Scarf Nidoking is worse because it's slower.

Mega Venu doesn't even beat Skarm easily ?_? HP Fire is cool and all, but Skarm outdamages with Brave Bird and has roost. This isn't even mentioning the fact that Venusaur has a completely different role than Scarfed Nidoking.

Yes, I'd rather use Venusaur over Nidoking as my poison type. Venusaur wins one on one versus Skarmory or forces it out. I know this isn't the best example of a Skamory check, but it doesn't lose to it. Brave Bird Skarmory is bad too. I'd rather have Counter or Whirlwind.

It's like you didn't even read the post. Nidoking has resistances and coverage moves that Lando would kill for. I'm not saying Lando is inferior or that Nidoking is better. I'm just saying that Nidoking has a few perks over him that carve him a niche.

Also Nidoking is way better than shit like Mega Obama and Mantine lol

I'd never use this thing over Landorus. Landorus beats Skarmory and Ferrothorn either way. I really don't care for changing my 70% chance to OHKO these mons for a 85% chance and getting worse results in most other matchups.

 

[alexwolf]

Update time:

Azumarill: A+ ---> S
Keldeo: A+ ---> S
Latios: A ---> A+
Latias: A ---> A+
Heatran: A ---> A+
Mega Charizard Y: A ---> A+
Tyranitar: A+ ---> A
Bisharp: A+ ---> A
Mamoswine: A- ---> A
Mew: B+ ---> A-
Starmie: C+ ---> B
Bronzong: Unranked ---> C-
Doublade: Unranked ---> D
Mega Heracross: B+ ---> A-
Mega Medicham: B+ ---> A-
Alomomola: B- ---> B
Magnezone: C+ ---> B-
Celebi: C ---> B-
Mega Alakazam: B- ---> B

Reasoning

Azumarill and Keldeo: Azunarill was decided by the majority of the posters in this thread to be an S rank threat, and most of the people i talked with on irc agreed with this. As for Keldeo, while it was a more tough call that i didn't personally agree with, most people i talked with on irc convinced me about Keldeo being worthy of S rank. Both Pokemon are some of the most metagame defining threats and some of the easiest Pokemon to slap on a team that pull their weight on any kind of matchup.

Latios and Latias: Aegislash gone, simple as that. Aegislash was one of their biggest problems, and without it they are free to terrorize offensive teams again.

Heatran: Heatran is able to run a variety of sets, sets that perform vastly different from each other, while every single one of them is very effective. Stealth Rock, Choice Scarf, and stallbreaking Heatran are all very effective sets that have different amount of checks and counters and support their team in different ways. Heatran's versatility and potency on each of those sets is what makes it worthy of A+ rank.

Mega Charizard Y: With the metagame becoming less and less prepared for Mega Charizard Y, its wallbreaking set alone can bring entire teams to their knees, as a lot of teams nowadays lack good Mega Char Y checks. Add the newly discovered Will-O-Wisp set that can handle threats such as Mega Mawile and Landorus, and you have an A+ rank Pokemon right there.

Tyranitar: Tyranitar's is not on par with the rest of the A+ Pokemon. All of Tyranitar's sets have serious limitations, such as being forced out by all of the S rank, and the three main reasons for using Tyranitar are for Pursuit, sand support, and to check birdspam. Scarf sets are decent revenge killers and Pursuit trappers, but are easy to check and can be taken advantage of easily, not to mention that they fail to outspeed the threats that you would want to use a Scarf user for in the first place, Mega Char X, Dragonite, and Mega Gyarados, meaning that you either have to pack another Scarf user, or multiple checks to those Pokemon, which heavily restricts team building. As for Smooth Rock sets, providing Sand, Pursuit, and Stealth Rock is nice, but Pursuit is useful only in certain match-ups, and Tyranitar is not a very good Stealth Rock setter anyway, as a lot of Defog / RS users can beat it, such as Mandibuzz, Excadrill, and Starmie. Basically, providing sand is support Tyranitar's biggest selling point, which is not enough to put it in A+ rank.

Bisharp: Aegislash is gone, so one of the biggest reasons to use Bisharp on offensive teams is now gone. Also, a lot of great Pokemon able to counter Bisharp have risen in usage, such as SpD Mega Charizard X and WoW Mega Charizard Y. Finally, Bisharp faces huge competition with Mega Mawile, an S rank threat that has a similarly powerful Sucker Punch, actual wallbreaking abilities, and an amazing defensive typing. Pursuit and Defiant are nice, but not good enough to keep Bisharp in A+.

Mamoswine: Checks a ton of offensive Pokemon with its typing and Ice Shard, is very hard to wall for anything not named stall, can lure Pokemon such as Gyarados and Rotom-W with Freezy Dry, and is also a great SR user. Most people agree with this, so no need for much talk here.

Mew: Mew is one of the most underrated Pokemon in OU, in fact it's so underrated that it's not even OU by usage. Great bulk allows it to check extremely dangerous threats for defensive teams, such as Mega Medicham, Landorus, and Latios, while it's Knock Off + Taunt set is just a pain to deal with for most teams. It softens up teams consistently, has good match-ups against a lot of Pokemon due to WoW + Taunt + recovery + decent Speed + great bulk, and also can use a great Defog set. An amazing stallbreaker and Defog user on par if not better than hole punchers such as Kyurem-B.

Mega Heracross, Mega Alakazam, and Mega Medicham: Aegislash gone.

Starmie: With Aegislash gone, Starmie is finally once again a reliable spinner, and one of the best spinners for offensive teams. Unlike Excadrill, Starmie outspeeds most offensive Pokemon and also beats most SR users (Heatran, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Garchomp), while also being very hard to wall, and having a decent amount of versatility between its coverage moves (Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are both good choices for the last slot), abilities (Natural Cure helps Starmie check Heatran, SubToxic Gliscor, and cure Thunder Wave after KOing Thundurus, while Analytic secures important 2HKOes) and even movesets (Offensive and defensive with Reflect Type).

Alomomola: The best WishPasser in OU, with good mixed bulk, solid typing, and an amazing ability, that takes part in a lot of good defensive cores, and can even support bulky offensive Pokemon on balanced teams. It has notable flaws, mainly lack of offensive presence, but its pros are enough to overcome them with team support, and in the end, Chansey has that flaw too and she is in A- right?

Bronzong: Bronzong checks a unique set of Pokemon, the most important of which are Mega Gardevoir, Sand Rush Excadriil, Mega Pinsir, Latios, Latias, and Mega Tyranitar, which makes it a viable choice on teams that want those Pokemon covered, especially as a pivot and SR setter on some offensive teams. It has a ton of flaws, but the fact that it deals with some extremely dangerous threats that don't have a lot of good checks with Aegislash gone (Mega Gardy, Latios, Latias) makes it worth putting in the viability ranking list.

Doublade: Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gardevoir, and Terrakion are some really dangerous Pokemon stall teams, Pokemon that Doublade counters as long as it's paired with a cleric. This makes it good enough to get ranked.

Magnezone: Skarmory is seen on most stall teams, and Magnezone eliminates it and allows Pokemon such as Mega Pinsir Sand Rush Excadrill to sweep. Also, the ability to trap and KO Mega Scizor is huge for Mega Gardevoir, a Pokemon that is getting better and better with Aegislash's absence. All in all, Magnezone supports some amazing Pokemon right now, and this support is good enough to warrant a placement in B- rank.

Celebi: With Aegislash leaving from OU, Celebi's Psychic typing is not such a big hindrance, allowing the little pixie to take advantage of its perks over its fellow bulky Grass-types to a greater extend. When it comes to checking threats that Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Amoonguss can't, look no further than Landorus, Excadrill, Keldeo, Latios, Latias, and Rotom-W. Thanks to Natural Cure and reliable recovery, as well as lack of weakness to Psychic, 4x weakness to Fire (HP Fire), weakness to Fighting, and a resistance to Ground, Celebi takes care of all those Pokemon better than the other Grass-types can. Also, Celebi has a big support movepool, with moves such as Thunder Wave, Perish Song (fuck off CM Suicune), Stealth Rock, Baton Pass, and Heal Bell, so it can be a better supporter and pivot than the other Grass-types (well not a better supporter than Ferrothorn, but when it comes to both supporting and pivoting, Celebi has the upper hand). Finally, Celebi is the fastest bulky Grass-type in OU, which coupled with recovery and decent coverage make Celebi a decent tank. All in all, Celebi's flaws have started becoming less relevant, and its advantages have started becoming more relevant, which is why it rose two whole sub ranks.

And that's it for now guys. Excuse me if i missed any nomination, there were tons of pages i had to look through and lots of changes to take into consideration. And don't worry, there is plenty of time for other changes to take place, so just keep discussing what you want to see happen with good arguments and it won't go unnoticed (looking at you Vertex, i haven't forgotten about Mega Houndoom :D). Here are some possible changes to discuss:

Pokemon to discuss:

Mega Houndoom rising to C+
Terrakion rising to A+
Staraptor rising to B
Lucario rising to B+
Conkeldurr falling to B-
Jirachi getting ranked to C- / C
Slowbro rising to A-
Cresselia rising to C+

As usual, changes will be implemented to the OP asap.

 

[Albacore]

wall of text

I agree with/am ambivalent about pretty much all of this, except for Rotom-W, Clefable, and MScizor. Now, I've already posted about Rotom-W and I still think it's way too easy to wear down, way too easy to explot, and never an actual threat, like, I never take it into account while teambulding at all and it never causes me any trouble personally (which is more than I can say for Suicune or even Starmie).
Clefbale I also posted about a while back, I think the CM set is just too easy to revenge kill, while the cleric set can end up getting overwhelmed. Offense kinda stomps it, stall usually has a taunter which deals with it okay (oh, and Stalltini is a really good anwser to it, especially the Unaware variant), and I guess bulky offense does have some trouble with it but can generally deal with it okay. It's very good, but I still think it's not really worth A+.
I'm really surprised you brought up Mega-Scizor, if anything it's even better now that it doesn't have to carry Knock Off and that MGardevoir rose in popularity, not that it wasn't a stellar win condition to begin with. The bulky SD set uses so much of the metagame as setup fodder it's insane. Yes, there are a few solid answers to it (Fire and Water types in general can take it on), but if it gets enough boosts it can actually break through these (+2 Bullet Punch KOs YZard after Rocks, for instance). MScizor also works as a great pivot due to how much stuff it can switch in on and how easily it can then recover health, in fact, it's one of the best switchins to Azumarill offense has. The only real metagame trend that causes problems for it is the rise of offensive Heatran sets, since MScizor was actually able to run an offensive SD set with Superpower to break past Heatran, which it can't really do now that many Hetarans outspeed it anyway. Still solid A+ in my eyes.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Like I said, I believe Staraptor can rise to B. It's biggest hard counter in Aidsgislash is rip, and now the only thing in the A-S ranks that counter it is Skarmory. To put into perspective it's power, banded adamant Staraptor is only 7%~ weaker than banded adamant Kyurem-B, which is likely the strongest attacker to have ever met OU. It has great flying STAB, and awesome coverage in CC. It can even lure in and take a large chunk out of Skarmory with Final Gambit, opening the way for another sweeper such as Mega Tyranitar or the like to sweep. I honestly believe it is B+ material, but I don't want to jump that high yet.

 

[Kyuzeth]

You've forgotten Mega Gardevoir, as several people have suggested it to move up to A, myself included. As Smog Frog before me has stated, you've missed Staraptor as well. Can't blame you at all, since it was indeed a fuckton to go through. Anyway, I'll be reposting my nominations for Staraptor and Mega Gardevoir in a spoiler tag.

Hide

Staraptor (B-) -> B+ | Speaking of actually underrated Pokémon, Staraptor is another fantastic wallbreaker to add the repertoire of rising stars in OU ever since Aegislash packed its stuff and left for the gods. Seriously, this thing can hit brutally hard when Banded, which is easily its best use. As people before me have pointed out (and I'm also saying this out of personal experience), Adamant Band Raptor just hits brutally hard with STAB Brave Bird and Double-Edge, shredding everything that doesn't resist it. Here's a small example:
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This right here is why Staraptor runs Adamant; that extremely high power output makes a huge difference between 2HKOs and OHKOs and all you need is to set up your Rocks and have Staraptor maul everything. It pairs excellently with Talonflame and Mega Pinsir to form a Flying Spam core, Staraptor crushing all the walls that need to be broken down to allow Talonflame or Mega Pinsir to sweep safely. As a last positive note, Staraptor attains perfect coverage between Normal/Flying/Fighting and in conjunction with its insane power, it's extremely difficult to switch in on. What keeps bomb burd down from being a total annihilator are its weakness to SR, its above-average Speed stat of 100, its relative frailty (85/70/60) and its common weaknesses to Electric-, Rock- and Ice-type moves. With Aegislash out of the picture, though, Staraptor has become a whole ton more impressive in OU. Staraptor for B+. Kacaw.

Mega Gardevoir (A-) -> A | You thought Mega Heracross was a nightmare to Stall? If that's what you thought, then Mega Gardevoir would be the poltergeist haunting it! Seriously, this Pokémon has become even more amazing than it already was. 165 Special Attack is absolutely fantastic and Mega Gardevoir has just the right movepool to maliciously abuse the living fuck out of it. Its signature Pixilate Hyper Voice has 175 power counting STAB and Pixilate, but its Fairy-type and ability to bypass Substitutes is just mind-blowing. This move alone makes Mega Gardevoir ridiculously hard to switch in on, but this dancer has access to STAB Psyshock to hit physically weak Pokémon and provide additional coverage. The third main move on Mega Gardevoir is Focus Blast, which, while inaccurate, allows it to slay most of the Steel-types that tend to annoy it, including Heatran, Skarmory and Mega Mawile. Since Aegislash has left, these three moves provide perfect coverage in OU and leave room for another useful move to add: Calm Mind allows Gardevoir to raise its Special Attack to insane levels, while giving it notable Special Defense to take hits on the special spectrum; Taunt gives Mega Gardevoir the ability to completely lay waste to Stall teams; and Will-O-Wisp lets it cripple physical attackers for a teammate to set up on or catch said attackers by surprise on the switch to live a physical hit. Additionally, stat-wise, Mega Gardevoir has a wonderful Special Defense stat of 135, giving it notable special bulk that can be augmented by Calm Mind, as mentioned before. 100 Speed is a good Speed tier in OU and since several other base 100s often don't go max Speed, Mega Gardevoir can easily run a Modest nature to make its power simply absurd.
With all these fantastic advantages, Mega Gardevoir does have some notable flaws. Firstly, its measly base 65 Defense gives it no physical bulk if not using Will-O-Wisp and leaves it prone to being revenge killed; Talonflame is the worst offender, as it's immune to burn courtesy of its own Fire-type. Additionally, 100 Speed is good, but not fantastic and leaves Mega Gardevoir outsped by key OU threats, such as the Eons, Thundurus-I and Landorus-I. This issue can be fixed by using Sticky Web, however, and Mega Gardevoir is easily one of its best abusers in the OU tier. To summarize, Mega Gardevoir is a massive threat due to its general unpredictability, jaw-breaking special power and being extremely difficult to directly switch in on. Mega Gardevoir for A.

 

[Clone]

Worthlessnoob I'm p much done discussing Nido cuz I'd be arguing semantics more than anything, but I do want to point out that being in the below average speed tier doesn't make that mon a bad scarfer. TTar, Exca, and Lando T have good scarf sets.

alexwolf (tagging so u see this (hopefully)) there was some discussion on Megachomp rising to A- There wasn't much opposition outside of like one person and it got some support. It was probably lost in the starmie discussion tho.

As for the mons to discuss, I can see raptor rising to B+ honestly. He's a nuke with band and can surprise kill a ton of shit that expect band with a scarf. He murders Zappy and Rotom, two mons that laugh at bird spam with double edge, which opens up holes for the other bird to clean up. I used him on a team paired with Pinsir that was made for the gauntlet (never used it in the tourney tho), and he acted almost exactly like Talonflame would have against most threats while hitting the aforementioned pokes as well as Heatran, TTar, and other random rock types thanks to close combat. Other priorities went first obviously, but outside of that not very many things outspeed the scarf. Move him up pls

As for conk, I'm on the fence. He did to from like top tier to fairly mediocre thanks to fairies and Random psychic moves and bird spam, but he still has one thing going for him: being a fighting type that doesn't die. If Azu and or Mawile are removed, there's really not much that can kill him. He's a bulky fucker who doesn't die if played right, and removes items as well. Tbh I think he's on par with Gothitelle. Both have niches that no other mons can fill but are lacking outside of those niches. If he goes down, goth should too, but for now I'd say to keep him in B.

Lucario should stay put. Aegis leaving certainly helped, but he still suffers from being frail and having subpar speed for a sweeper. I know he's a late game cleaner with SD, but even then he doesn't have much room to set up vs offense. He's also a bit overeliant on extreme speed to hit faster threats. It's very powerful after a boost, but without stab I've always found it a bit lacking. Close Combat is cool for shitting on things after a boost tho. rip Skarm. For now I'd say keep him in b.

Have no input on Houndoom as I've never used him.

Terrakion should go up. Made a post earlier a page or two back, but that coverage slot that freed him up as well as aegis leaving turned him back into that one fighting type that everyone dreaded last gen. Sash lead is coolwith taunt, band nukes shit (Skarm is 2HKOed by cc), scarf outspeeds everything, while LO hp ice laughs at Lando (t) and Gliscor. Move him to A+ pls

 

[Redolent]

Terrakion to A+

Most the other A+ rank mons have a combination of offensive prowess and good typing, but Terrakion can barely switch in on anything because Rock typing is so bad (one of its biggest benefits this gen is resisting Talonflame's STABs but that doesn't apply here). It's a lot harder to bring into battle safely than the other Pokémon in this rank and fairly easily forced out too, both by the faster Pokémon that threaten it and common super effective priority (Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch and Mach Punch). It shouldn't go above Landorus-T. A rank is more suitable

Mega Houndoom rising to C+

Supporting. NP / Fire Blast / Dark Pulse / HP Grass is a great set, resists Sucker Punch, opens holes in defensive teams and most importantly has that excellent base 115 Speed which puts it ahead of nearly all relevant offensive Pokémon except Greninja and Talonflame. Obviously Keldeo and Azumarill are problematic but both are worn down by repeated switch-ins and not a lot can survive +2 Mega Houndoom's attacks other than that. Got a bad reputation early on in the metagame but is actually pretty consistently good in practise if a mega slot can be spared

Staraptor rising to B

Also support. Reckless boosted STABs will crush any wall not named Skarmory if banded and it's a massive threat to offence if scarfed. It gets worn down so fast though, I wouldn't put it any higher than this.

Lucario rising to B+

Don't really agree with this, even with Aegislash gone it feels lacking coverage. It wants Ice Punch for Gliscor, Crunch for Psychics, Steel coverage for Fairies and priority to make up for its mediocre base Speed. Bisharp being less common is actually bad for it since it's great for nabbing a Justified boost.

Jirachi getting ranked to C- / C

Definitely. It's a great switch into Mega Gardevoir, can check lots of things, great support moves (Thunder Wave, Wish, Healing Wish, Stealth Rock) and unpredictable. With Ghost and Dark moves being a little less common in an Aegislash free metagame, it actually feels decently bulky again.


Azumarill is the ideal S rank Pokemon, amazing at everything it does without feeling overpowered.