Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[TM93]

To be honest, I don't know if I became an idiot while I was away, don't know how to run Ice, or if Kyurem-W's unban just didn't make Ice any more viable. Or any combination of the three, of the battles I fought yesterday with Kyurem-W on my team, I lost each and every one. Namely due to freaking Mega Medicham, which I ran into twice.

 

[Vinnesia Bossman]

Evidence as to why Genesect is op: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-935541
please someone explain how i could have played differently to win that game.
I have scarftini, i kill his heatran early, but genesect just revenge u-turns until all of my other pokes are gone

PLEASE SOMEONE TEACH ME HOW TO DEFEAT THIS NOW LEGAL POKEMON! I obviously am playing the game incorrectly, because Genesect is 4x weak to fire and doesnt even have base 100 speed!

 

[TM93]

Evidence as to why Genesect is op: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-935541
please someone explain how i could have played differently to win that game.
I have scarftini, i kill his heatran early, but genesect just revenge u-turns until all of my other pokes are gone

PLEASE SOMEONE TEACH ME HOW TO DEFEAT THIS NOW LEGAL POKEMON! I obviously am playing the game incorrectly, because Genesect is 4x weak to fire and doesnt even have base 100 speed!

I really don't see how this proves Genesect is OP, it killed 3 party members swapping out, and one of them was Victini who was at -2 Speed and -2 Defenses, anything that wasn't slow as molasses would have outsped and KOed at that point. You also say on the chat box that the crit proves Genesect is OP, I don't understand that logic myself, hax happen, gotta deal with it. Don't get me wrong, Genesect is powerful, but I don't think this video proves that.

 

[Freeroamer]

Heard a lot of people asking for bans already, but before we introduce more bans, if we are going to run a separate tiering system, we need a separate set of rules to determine what is and what isn't banworthy.

Looking at the last 2 bans in monotype, talonflame and damp rock, it seems that the general formula for banning atm is if something forces several different types teams to run several obscure sets/mons to have a chance in beating it. Evidence of this can be seen from the talonflame ban, where grass in particular had to run these obscure checks, and fighting and bug were not far behind.

On to the new mons that have been unbanned:

Shaymin-S: Damn is this thing a bitch to play against, it turns several matchups on it's head, and screws a lot of stuff between the 80% chance to half special defense from Seed Flare and 60% to flinch from Air Slash. It also has the versatility to run several different sets ranging from offensive LO/Specs sets to the extremely annoying and effective SubSeed set while sitting in an excellent Speed tier for the Monotype tier, just outspeeding Greninja and therefore most of the unboosted metagame.

Is it banworthy? Possibly, as it's speed and power forces some types to sac a mon every time they want to check it, especially the all-out offensive sets with their power and coverage, one type in particular that suffers from this is ground. However on the subject of checking it,it is checked by any scarf user wielding an ice move, or a powerful rock/fire/flying/poison move, or p. much anything wielding STAB Ice Shard. It's SR weakness means it can get worn down fairly quickly too.

Kyurem-White: Holy hell is this thing strong. Virtually impossible to counter outside of Chansey, and even she falls to repeated Focus Blasts from the specs set with minimal prior damage. It's coverage is truly a gift to it in the world of monotype too, as between it's Dragon STAB and Fusion Flare, it hits everything neutrally thanks to Turboblaze meaning the last 2 slots are a toss up between Earth Power / Focus Blast / Ice STAB / Dragon Pulse, giving it the opportunity to cater for certain threats depending on your team build. These are only the options for an offensive set, as with 125/90/100 bulk it is more than capable of running a bulky SubRoost set to take advantage of it's cool electric, water and grass resistances, and punishes the opposing team with its nuclear power and surprising longevity. The most common set I've seen so far on the ladder is the scarf set, providing a revenge killer with great power and coverage that is very difficult to check.

Is it banworthy? Again, possibly, but i find it less so than Shaymin-S. The scarf set can be predicted and played around, and the lack of recovery combined with the SR weakness and the hit and run nature of the set means it is worn down fairly quickly. The more powerful sets are undoubtedly to switch in to, but carry even more checks than the scarf set, however it's important to remember that decent bulk, unless you're packing a strong supereffective move it's very difficult to OHKO.

Genesect: So enjoyable to play with, so annoying to play against. This thing takes U-Turn on choice scarf sets too far. It's coverage, good speed tier and great ability only add to what is undoubtedly one of the biggest threats in monotype atm. The main choice when using genesect is which attacking stat you favour, specially biased scarf with U-Turn seems to be the most popular at the moment, rocking something like U-Turn / Tbolt / Ice Beam / Flamethrower or Bug Buzz. I have seen a couple of physcially biased sets, taking advantage of a stronger U-Turn and STAB Iron Head, but generalyy on the Bug and Steel teams Genesect is on prefer the special coverage and firepower. I've not really seen many sets outside scarf sets to be honest, so really can't comment on them.

Is it banworthy? Probably not imo, it hits hard, but not that hard tbh, and is very prone to getting worn down by SR or if it tries to switch into almost any attack it doesn't resist. It's also quite reliant on getting the boost to the attacking stat it favors in order to really hit bulky threats hard from what i found when i was using it yesterday. Simple things like adding 4 EVs to the defensive stat you don't want it to hit on pokemon with balanced defenses can really help against it.

Thanks to those who actually read this lol, it's a lot longer than I intended.

 

[Salemance]

Heard a lot of people asking for bans already, but before we introduce more bans, if we are going to run a separate tiering system, we need a separate set of rules to determine what is and what isn't banworthy.

Looking at the last 2 bans in monotype, talonflame and damp rock, it seems that the general formula for banning atm is if something forces several different types teams to run several obscure sets/mons to have a chance in beating it. Evidence of this can be seen from the talonflame ban, where grass in particular had to run these obscure checks, and fighting and bug were not far behind.

On to the new mons that have been unbanned:

Shaymin-S: Damn is this thing a bitch to play against, it turns several matchups on it's head, and screws a lot of stuff between the 80% chance to half special defense from Seed Flare and 60% to flinch from Air Slash. It also has the versatility to run several different sets ranging from offensive LO/Specs sets to the extremely annoying and effective SubSeed set while sitting in an excellent Speed tier for the Monotype tier, just outspeeding Greninja and therefore most of the unboosted metagame.

Is it banworthy? Possibly, as it's speed and power forces some types to sac a mon every time they want to check it, especially the all-out offensive sets with their power and coverage, one type in particular that suffers from this is ground. However on the subject of checking it,it is checked by any scarf user wielding an ice move, or a powerful rock/fire/flying/poison move, or p. much anything wielding STAB Ice Shard. It's SR weakness means it can get worn down fairly quickly too.

Kyurem-White: Holy hell is this thing strong. Virtually impossible to counter outside of Chansey, and even she falls to repeated Focus Blasts from the specs set with minimal prior damage. It's coverage is truly a gift to it in the world of monotype too, as between it's Dragon STAB and Fusion Flare, it hits everything neutrally thanks to Turboblaze meaning the last 2 slots are a toss up between Earth Power / Focus Blast / Ice STAB / Dragon Pulse, giving it the opportunity to cater for certain threats depending on your team build. These are only the options for an offensive set, as with 125/90/100 bulk it is more than capable of running a bulky SubRoost set to take advantage of it's cool electric, water and grass resistances, and punishes the opposing team with its nuclear power and surprising longevity. The most common set I've seen so far on the ladder is the scarf set, providing a revenge killer with great power and coverage that is very difficult to check.

Is it banworthy? Again, possibly, but i find it less so than Shaymin-S. The scarf set can be predicted and played around, and the lack of recovery combined with the SR weakness and the hit and run nature of the set means it is worn down fairly quickly. The more powerful sets are undoubtedly to switch in to, but carry even more checks than the scarf set, however it's important to remember that decent bulk, unless you're packing a strong supereffective move it's very difficult to OHKO.

Genesect: So enjoyable to play with, so annoying to play against. This thing takes U-Turn on choice scarf sets too far. It's coverage, good speed tier and great ability only add to what is undoubtedly one of the biggest threats in monotype atm. The main choice when using genesect is which attacking stat you favour, specially biased scarf with U-Turn seems to be the most popular at the moment, rocking something like U-Turn / Tbolt / Ice Beam / Flamethrower or Bug Buzz. I have seen a couple of physcially biased sets, taking advantage of a stronger U-Turn and STAB Iron Head, but generalyy on the Bug and Steel teams Genesect is on prefer the special coverage and firepower. I've not really seen many sets outside scarf sets to be honest, so really can't comment on them.

Is it banworthy? Probably not imo, it hits hard, but not that hard tbh, and is very prone to getting worn down by SR or if it tries to switch into almost any attack it doesn't resist. It's also quite reliant on getting the boost to the attacking stat it favors in order to really hit bulky threats hard from what i found when i was using it yesterday. Simple things like adding 4 EVs to Special Defense on pokemon with balanced defenses can really help against it, in order to give it a SpA boost rather than Attack.

Thanks to those who actually read this lol, it's a lot longer than I intended.

Actually K-W can run a Sub + Roost set with Turbo Blaze and Dragon move of choice if it so wishes (just to say cause it does have reliable recovery).

and While Genesect Scarf is the most common set, its not nearly the best (easiest to use by far tho). It has multiple sets which flips things on its head from Shift Gear, CB, to whatever the hell it wants to do. Genesect is indeed a pain to fight only due to its ability to bring the argument of counters out of the equation as it can simply just U-turn out of there, bringing something in to kill your full stop to it. Also on most pokemon, its harder to EV the odds out to making it in your favor of the Genesect's download (unless you are Mew or some other mons I can't recall atm) thus still making it hard to properly fight as you have to assess it even more accordingly.

I'm jus pointing some things out is all to help with your opinions man :D

 

[Glob Of Ectoplasm]

I've played during these days to test the new meta.
I tried with my old dark team, but then I had to change something in order to revenge kill things like genesect-kyu.w-shayminS. I said revange kill, not counter, because I think you can't really counter them, but in general it's hard to have a counter for everything in monotype.
If the genesect's user have a little bit of prediction attitude, you can try to counter it with your physical wall and then you'll get in your face a flamethrower or icebeam to say hi. It's all about sacrifice and revenge kill in monotype in general.
My suggestion is to unban genesect just for bug type, steel already have mawile & co.

 

[Freeroamer]

Salemance Yeah they're fair points, however I do mention the SubRoost set for Kyurem-White, the line about lack of recovery refers to the offensive sets such as scarf and specs. About Genesect I've not used or really seen sets other than slightly different scarf sets, but versatility certainly does seem to be one of it's many traits, and on the EVs, i should really mention thats only on mons with balanced base defenses.

 

[DoW]

'Reliable Mega Venusaur Killer'

There's not really anything like that unless you wanna run Assault Vest Slowking, since Tentacruel honestly gets easily worn down by hazards if it continuously switches into Sludge Bombs and other moves. Anyways, I agree with Belgian Fírnen . Water was and is pretty easy to defeat with Grass even before the Shaymin-Sky unban.

+

+

Ultimately, your Sap Sipper Azumarill + Assault Vest Slowking + Tentacruel core is going to get worn down by hazards, due to Azumarill and Tentacruel not having reliable recovery. Of course, there's another three Pokemon to worry about, and they probably can absolutely destroy a Grass Team if you can somehow preserve Azumarill, but honestly, if the Grass User plays smart, he wouldn't just spam Grass moves like willy-nilly. All in all, this core can destroy a Grass Mono, but it's pretty counter-teamy, honestly. If you build a Water monotype just around defeating Grass Monotypes, you won't get very far. Any Hyper Offensive typing, like Fighting, or even Fire, can break through this core. Of course Azumarill poses a bit of a threat to both of them, but honestly, Azumarill doesn't enjoy switching in on a Breloom's Rock Tomb, or a Charizard-Y's Sun boosted Fire Blasts or Air Slashes. I still like this core a bit, and I think I'm going to make a team around it.

I'm sorry have you never seen a water team?
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67.9 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Why on earth would you need to run that core? Water is veritably overflowing with pokes that can deal masses of damage to mega venu, and it's not going to be able to switch in on them forever. If used well the water player can use offensive pressure to get mega venu within KO range of one of these and predict when it'll come in, and suddenly the grass player has very little to send in against all those ice moves.

 

[inscribe]

I'm sorry have you never seen a water team?
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 244-291 (67.9 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Why on earth would you need to run that core? Water is veritably overflowing with pokes that can deal masses of damage to mega venu, and it's not going to be able to switch in on them forever. If used well the water player can use offensive pressure to get mega venu within KO range of one of these and predict when it'll come in, and suddenly the grass player has very little to send in against all those ice moves.

My point exactly. The Water player has to focus extremely hard on getting rid of Mega Venusaur, which just so happens to be difficult. There's still another 5 Pokemon to deal with when playing Water vs Grass, and just one would bring the Water Player tons of trouble. Which is exactly why this core is pretty much the only way Water can effectively deal with a decent Grass player. Breloom, Shiftry, Rotom-Mow, Cradily, and etc. are just a handful of trouble to the Water user, and makes it near impossible to defeat a good Grass user with a Bulky Water mono.

Your post makes it seem as if Mega Venusaur is the only Pokemon on a Grass Monotype, or the only relevant threat. Breloom can ultimately sweep you if you don't run Sap Sipper Azumarill, and Mega Venusaur is extremely hard to defeat, as no Grass user with half a brain would leave Mega-Venusaur in on a threat that can potentially kill it (Greninja, HP Flying Keldeo is irrelevant since it hits so weak.).

 

[Auburn]

Alright I Have all the evidence i need for Genesect. On Both Bug and Steel it proved to be a problem for Psychic, Dark, Flying and giving other typings problems. but those 3 i found to be the biggest for, i am not a steel user, and only use bug once in awhile so my biased is outta the picture, and idec for psychic, dark. with Flying there is always things you can find to check things anyways, but judging from when i was testing Genesect i will give my vote on it to be banned and i have replays for proof on it

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158176821 Bug vs Flying

Genesect and Mawile http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158506163

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158648032 Steel vs Flying

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158796403 Genesect vs Dark

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158799072 Steel Genesect/Mawile vs Psychic

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158801273 Steel Genesect vs Psychic

These are all the Replays i saved as of today this morning and yesterday i do believe

 

[Salemance]

Salemance Yeah they're fair points, however I do mention the SubRoost set for Kyurem-White, the line about lack of recovery refers to the offensive sets such as scarf and specs. About Genesect I've not used or really seen sets other than slightly different scarf sets, but versatility certainly does seem to be one of it's many traits, and on the EVs, i should really mention thats only on mons with balanced base defenses.

Ah I got ya but lack of recovery seemed a tad picky to state on specs sets since that's every mon pretty much but just my two cents. :D

 

[Vinnesia Bossman]

I really don't see how this proves Genesect is OP, it killed 3 party members swapping out, and one of them was Victini who was at -2 Speed and -2 Defenses, anything that wasn't slow as molasses would have outsped and KOed at that point. You also say on the chat box that the crit proves Genesect is OP, I don't understand that logic myself, hax happen, gotta deal with it. Don't get me wrong, Genesect is powerful, but I don't think this video proves that.

a few things:
1. hopefully you noticed I NEVER TOUCHED GENESECT IN THAT MATCH BESIDE ROCK DAMAGE. it u-turns away from danger
2. the only things faster than scarf genesect are other scarves with base 100 speed or higher. any user with a brain knows to keep genesect away from obvious scarves like victini
3. Slowbro should be able to take a u-turn even if its a critical hit. ITS A SLOWBRO. If it can't switch into a uturn safely, what can?
4. Every time I killed a poke, Genesect was there to revenge kill or damage with u-turn and escape. That will always be true, every game.

I dont know what you saw in that video to make you think differently, but I outplayed that guy, straight up. Every other poke besides Genesect I was able to cripple and prevent from doing what it was meant to do. Unfortunately, scarf genesect negates that good work by getting a free boost coming in, getting kills, and then leaving before i can hit. TBecause u-turn is really the only move a Genesect needs against psychic (or dark or grass), the only time you can actually hit it is when its the only poke left, (or the first move of the game, but anyone with a brain, like the guy in the replay knows to switch out), and when Genesect is the only poke left, that means it was already able to get atleast 5 u-turn, that more often than not, will result in either kills, or next move kills, when the new poke comes in.

But you didnt answer my question. WHAT COULD I HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY TO WIN THAT GAME? I outplayed him, unless you saw something different.

 

[unklewiggles]

i am a steel user and while i battled today i batteled like 5 other steel teams (no surpirse there) but every single one of them had a scarf genesect and even after making my heatran scarfed they still just kepy u turn circles around my team and i was pretty high up on the ladder 1430-1500s and i just think that genesect just neeeeeds to be banned again at least from steel its just way to powerful. think if it was banned from ou, then why would it be better in monotype where youre much more limited to counters especially to a poekmon like gensect who has so little counters and while everyone is going to say dur dur heatran is a counter well once you get hit but uturns a genral residual damage you get within tbolt range or gensects have acces to a water moove if they use a drive when you switch in so please for the love of god Ban Genesect or instill a monotype suspect test or vote

 

[Crazy Horse]

My point exactly. The Water player has to focus extremely hard on getting rid of Mega Venusaur, which just so happens to be difficult. There's still another 5 Pokemon to deal with when playing Water vs Grass, and just one would bring the Water Player tons of trouble. Which is exactly why this core is pretty much the only way Water can effectively deal with a decent Grass player. Breloom, Shiftry, Rotom-Mow, Cradily, and etc. are just a handful of trouble to the Water user, and makes it near impossible to defeat a good Grass user with a Bulky Water mono.

Your post makes it seem as if Mega Venusaur is the only Pokemon on a Grass Monotype, or the only relevant threat. Breloom can ultimately sweep you if you don't run Sap Sipper Azumarill, and Mega Venusaur is extremely hard to defeat, as no Grass user with half a brain would leave Mega-Venusaur in on a threat that can potentially kill it (Greninja, HP Flying Keldeo is irrelevant since it hits so weak.).

You seriously aren't making sense. Extrasensory Greninja and HP Flying keldeo are common in OU so how is that focusing extremely hard just running a smogon set? ._.
Greninja can almost single handedly handle grass for water and bait mega venusaur switch ins. Keldeo also gives grass problems while with hp flying being able to KO mega venusaur after prior damage. Waters has plenty of offensive options for killing mega venusaur and I see you were able to notice the defensive ones...only the defensive ones. Shiftry is killed by greninja, Cradily can't switch in, Rotom-C doesn't like azu+gastro :> Water has plenty of options to trump grass so the matchup statistically is neutral. Grass users have a lot of bait traps and predictions to beat water while water has to predict carefully and Fulfill the win condition of killing mega venusaur.

Besides keldeo and gren for mega venusaur killers.
Gyarados(bounce), Mantine(Variants of bulky water), starmie, Tentacruel brings the pain and can play mind games with it, Empoleon to an extent. These are pokes that are viable without the mention of mega venusaur as well. So please tell me how do you have to over focus to kill it? Oh and for your "half a brain trainer would do x"(Speculation) it doesn't matter if you switch out because something because your switch in to ice beam greninja is mega venusaur. HP Flying Keldeo is a pure bait trap and your venusaur takes a hurl of damage in the process. Also Water can play around giga drain/leech seed with tentacruel. However grass's option for ice beam(Mega Venusaur) can easily get covered without much effort.

 

[inscribe]

You seriously aren't making sense. Extrasensory Greninja and HP Flying keldeo are common in OU so how is that focusing extremely hard just running a smogon set? ._.
Greninja can almost single handedly handle grass for water and bait mega venusaur switch ins. Keldeo also gives grass problems while with hp flying being able to KO mega venusaur after prior damage. Waters has plenty of offensive options for killing mega venusaur and I see you were able to notice the defensive ones...only the defensive ones. Shiftry is killed by greninja, Cradily can't switch in, breloom doesn't ohko with mach punch, Rotom-C doesn't like azu+gastro :> Water has plenty of options to trump grass so the matchup statistically is neutral. Grass users have a lot of bait traps and predictions to beat water while water has to predict carefully and Fulfill the win condition of killing mega venusaur.

Honestly, this is just down to predictions. Say, Rotom-C isn't walled by Sap Sipper Azu+Gastrodon if he tricks, or if he predicts your switch. Or, the Grass user predicts you to switch out Greninja on the Mach Punch since it's pretty much your win condition. But, the advantage Grass has in the midst of all of this prediction is how the Grass user can manipulate you, since all the Water user can do is switch out constantly until somehow he brings in his Greninja, or Keldeo, which would be difficult as the Grass user is just spamming attacks that would easily wear your attackers down, and ultimately lose you the game. I understand where you're going with this, but you're making it seem like the Grass user stands no chance at all.

100 HP / 103 ATK / 75 DEF / 120 SPA / 75 SPD / 127 SPE


It also seems like we're forgetting the star of the party. Shaymin-sky, the recently unbanned Uber which aids the Grass monotype greatly. It just so happens to outspeed Greninja, and potentially sweep Water monotypes with particular ease. Unless you're assuming that the Greninja the Water user runs is Scarf, Life Orb Shaymin-sky can easily sweep a Water monotype, single handedly. It doesn't even need to be Life Orb, either. It can be Scarf, to trump other Shaymin-sky, or Scarf Greninjas that might be a big threat to the team. But honestly, Scarf Greninja isn't a threat to SpDef Mega-Venusaur, which, in my opinion, is the best variant of Mega-Venusaur, since Physically Defensive Mega-Venusaur isn't going to be walling/attacking much that your other team members aren't.

252 SpA Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 144-170 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 84-98 (23 - 26.9%) -- 39.5% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 144-170 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 127-151 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO (The damage Venusaur is going to be dealing to you.)

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 153-180 (53.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's literally how much of a threat Scarf Greninja is going to pose to your team. He's going to do measly damage to you, unless he happens to carry the Extrasensory, which you live anyways. Also, if you're worn down enough, Venusaur can easily kill your Greninja with a Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain, and recover on one of your defensive Pokemon that Venusaur can easily switch in to, like Quagsire, or Alomomola.

 

[Belgian Fírnen]

So far, my arguments are as follows, in case you want to counter them all:

• Shaymin-s only makes grass better by introducing matchup-based games (the reason talonflame was banned)
• Shaymin-s is uncompetitive due to its ability and air slash, much like swagger
• Shaymin-s is difficult to counter at all thanks to its ability, seed flare, and speed
• Shaymin-s harms the diversity of team composition.

► I'm agree with you for the second, third points, indeed, Shaymin-Sky is played for Haxx and low Sp Def and he is difficult to counter for some types like Fighting , Water.
But when I examine Pokemon able to counter (Revengekill) Shymin:

• Steel:
(If Shymin doesn't have HP Fire),(Mega-)Scizor, Genesect (at the moment), Mega-Maw, Empoleon.

•Fighting:
Terrakion-Scarf, Keldeo Scarf.

•Dragon:
Kyurem-B Scarf,Latios Scarf, Dnite-Band.

•Water:
Greninja Scarf, Cloyster Ice Shard.

•Electric:
Zapdos, Thundrus, Eelektross-AV, Raikou Scarf.

•Fairy: Mega-Mawile-Klefki.

•Fire: Daramitan-Scarf, Victini-Scarf, Entei

•ICe: Ice Shard.

•Bug: M-Pinsir, Heracross-Scarf, M-Scizor, Accelgor.

•Normal: Chansey T-Wave/ Staraptor.

•Grass: Abomasnow, Cradily, Shymin, Roserade-Scarf, Rotom scarf.

•Poison: Nidoking-Scarf, Crobat.

•Psychic: Victini-Scarf, Metagross, Jirachi-Scarf.

•Ghost: Gengar-Scarf, Chandelure-Scarf, Destiny bond Mega Banette, Aegislash.

•Ground: Ice shard Mamo, Landorus-T-Scarf, Exadrill Sand Rush, Nidoking Scarf.

•Dark: Greninja-Scarf, Hydreigon-Scarf.

•Flying: Scarfmons, Zapdos.

So, true, he is powerfull but not unstoppable.


► For your 4th case, generic flying and psychic teams harms the diversity too, and it's worth than one Shymin.
And every users of Grass use M-Venu, Ferro.

► For your first case, it may be correct but Talonflam has a boost move and recover move too, Shymin not.
There is one difference, you can win one game with only Talon if you boost him with 3 SD but Shymin doesn't have this timeliness.
Shymin helps Grass to be better against Bug mainly, have a flying double-type is very good for grass because the most of time, Grass has very big issues with bugs.

I'm sorry where are you getting those numbers from? From water users I know and my experience on both frost and main Water vs Grass has always been neutral or better for water so long as they had a reliable mega venusaur killer. Since some bulky water users started implementing sap sipper azu they can't just spam grass moves either. Using one match as a basis is erroneous and not a real representative of hte truth.

Most grass users in ladd uses grass for fun or they are generally bad, so beat them are easy because they don't care about the competitive aspect.
If i beat Sae who is, for me, the best water user 6-1 with grass (without Shymin), it probably means that Grass are better than Water even if water users uses bulky water teams.
If you play correctly, you can beat water easily.

 

[inscribe]

I'm sorry where are you getting those numbers from? From water users I know and my experience on both frost and main Water vs Grass has always been neutral or better for water so long as they had a reliable mega venusaur killer. Since some bulky water users started implementing sap sipper azu they can't just spam grass moves either. Using one match as a basis is erroneous and not a real representative of hte truth.

Also, you're kinda assuming that Mega Venusaur is literally the only threat there is... and, you're implying that Water had a neutral match-up against Grass, even if they don't have Sap Sipper Azumarill, which is pretty whack, since Azumarill is pretty much your win-condition if you plan on beating a Grass-monotype with your Water team. Without Sap Sipper Azumarill, Water VS Grass match-ups would be too easy, honestly, even before the Skymin ban. Post Skymin ban, a Water team lacking Sap Sipper Azumarill is pretty much an insta-win for the Grass user.

 

[all falls down]

Alright after testing all of the recent Pokemon that have been un-banned along with observing ladder games and carefully thinking of each of their impacts on the metagame, I have come to a decision on what my opinions are on each.

• 
  
  Deoxys Defense/Deoxys Speed - These two Pokemon were banned in OU for their broken combo with Bisharp, allowing them to successfully keep their hazards up while maintaining offensive presence. In monotype, obviously, they are limited to being within the Psychic monotype, and in this regard they do not nearly provide the unmatched ability to set up hazards as they do in the OU tier. Using Deoxys-Defense as a wall is, under most cases, outclassed by specially defensive mew as it has access to not only Will-o-Wisp but other important utility moves such as heal bell and defog. Deoxys-Speed shares a similar fate in that its ability to set hazards is outclassed, and its life orb attacking set is walled by any dedicated special wall as it severely lacks firepower. As it stands, Psychic monotypes already share a rather essential/overused core of Mew, Slowbro, and Gallade/Meloetta, and Deoxys-defense simply cannot make up for what these Pokemon do, and as a result, psychic monotypes in general do not have room for it. Because of these reasons, I believe that we should keep the deoxys.

• 
  Aegislash - Aegislash was quite an annoying Pokemon to deal with in monotype, mainly for its role that it played in forming the infamous steel core of Aegislash, Skarmory, and Heatran. Many monotypes were incapable of breaking through this core, and in this regard I feel as if Aegislash should not be able to be used on steel monotypes. Ghost, however, is a completely different story. Ghost monotypes in general lack viable physical attackers, and lacks the firepower and offense that Aegislash brings to the table. Ghosts monotypes are, at the moment, of lower tier and are forced to run Pokemon like Banette or even Duoblade for physical presence. Aegislash brings viability to Ghost without being abused or put over the edge, and due to this I believe that we should keep Aegislash for use on Ghost monotypes. For steel, however, bringing Aegislash would once again place Steel as one of the top Monotypes in the tier, with the neigh-unbreakable Aegislash/Skarmory/Heatran core. Because of this, I believe we should still ban Aegislash on steel.

• 
  Mawile - Mawile was banned in OU for its unmatched wallbreaking power and also its ability to sweep even offensive teams. In monotype, Mawile is home to the Fairy and Steel monotypes. Fairy as a type is similar to Ghost in that they lack viable physical attackers; without Mawile, Fairy users are forced to use Pokemon such as Granbull or Surpuff which are overall lackluster and really bring down the overall viability of Fairy in monotype. Consequently, I believe that Mawile should be able to be used on Fairy monotypes because not only of Fairy's physically offensive absence, Fairies lack a solid physically defensive Pokemon, and as a result have no real Pokemon to take the strong earthquakes and flare blitz that are the downfall of Mawile. Mawile remains to be a strong Pokemon no doubt, but is at home on Fairy monotypes as it is not brought to overt brokenness. On Steel monotype however, Heatran and Skarmory provide excellent partners to Mawile as they can easily sponge the respective ground move or fire move and as a result provide many set up opportunities for Mawile, which cause it to be as broken as it was in OU.Due to these reasons I believe that we should keep Mawile for fairy and ban Mawile for steel.

• 
  Genesect - (so scary ;__;) Ever since the idea of unbanning Genesect was thought of in the monotype room, I have questioned what the community was thinking. To begin, I will state that both Bug and Steel were completely viability mid-high tier monotypes that certainly did not need the truly gamebreaking Pokemon that is known as Genesect. As such, I am truly dumbfounded as to why this was ever unbanned; all that Genesect ever has to do is spam u-turn and it still becomes appallingly broken. I believe we all know Genesect's utility and power, so I won't get into that. Instead, I will go into how it breaks Monotype by single-handedly sweeping a few types. Let's begin with how it fares on Steel monotypes.

1. Steel has naturally had a bad match-up with flying, one thing setting steel apart from being one of the top monotypes. Let's all take a moment to think of how incredibly Genesect rapes flying. Assuming the scarf variant, If Genesect switches in on a Skarmory or a Landorus-Therian and gets the download boost for Special Attack, quite literally nothing apart from Articuno will enjoy taking a +1 ice beam, and Articuno is generally overlooked on flying monotypes due to its crippling 4x stealth rock weakness. This fact alone proves that Genesect is broken. Flying teams are forced to run things like Articuno or specially defensive Charizard x or y to stop Genesect's ice beam, all of which absolutely hate stealth rock which does not aid their ability to take Genesect's hits. It is quite obvious then, that Genesect tilts Steel vs Flying to Steel's favor.
2. Another of Steel's bad matchups, Dark, shares a similar fate, in that it is completely wrecked by Genesect. Nothing will enjoy taking a u-turn, unboosted or not, and if Genesect runs Bug buzz, it will spell doom for the dark player, as you can see in one of Auburns replays. Gone are the days of Greninja and mixed Mega-Tyranitar picking apart Steel's feeble Skarmory/Heatran core. Genesect is the ultimate wall breaker that possesses the ability to single-handedly sweep Dark. That is two matchups that Genesect has skewed for Steel.
3. But wait! There is a third matchup as well. Ever since the banishment of Aegislash, Psychic monotypes have had an upper hand on the Steel matchup, as both Mega-Medicham and Mega-Gardevoir eat up Steel alive (mostly medicham). Psychic, however, is similar to Dark in that it has literally no safe switch ins for Genesect's terrifying boosted u-turns and bug-buzzes. Psychic's premier walls Meloetta, Gallade, Mew, and Slowbro are all 2HKOd by U-turn and Slowbro is OHKO'd by Bug Buzz. In this regard, Psychic's only hope is to outspeed and OHKO Genesect with scarfed Victini. But it isn't that easy. Steel monotypes, of course, have Heatran, who will eat up poor Victini's V-Create, and even Bolt-Strike if it attempts to predict, and will respond with a super-effective Earth power. This makes three matchups that Genesect will completely skew in favor of Steel, all by itself.
4. This alone proves reason enough to definitely Ban genesect for both steel and bug. I have not had much testing with bug, but clearly just looking at how it demolishes three types is safe enough to say that it is broken on bug as well.

• 
  Kyurem-White - Ah, how broken and inconceivable this pokemon seemed before it was unbanned. Yes, it is an amazing pokemon with fantastic power and yes, it is a tremendous asset to ice teams, however, you are unfortunately limited to either Kyurem-white or his brother Kyurem-black on an ice team due to species clause. But wait, most people would say "wow kyurem-white is uber and kyurem-black is OU, obviously i'm going to pick kyurem-white...", and while this may seem true, Kyurem-black is almost essential on ice teams because of its incredibly powerful fusion bolt that gives ice the upper hand on its bad match-up of water. Due to this, 9 times out of 10 I will be picking Kyurem-black on my mono ice team, and this proves that Kyurem-white is not broken, but just an amazing Pokemon to use. Because of this, I believe that we should keep Kyurem-white for use on ice teams(I hope I don't regret this).

• 
  Shaymin-Sky - I need more testing on this, coming soon.

• REPLAYS

1. Genesect + Mawile offensive presence overwhelming Ground (a type advantage) (Mostly Mawile...)http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159097124, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159085878
2. Genesect overwhelming Psychic (with Medicham!) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159111244

 

[inscribe]

(sorry for double post please dont murder me,,, im too active on this forum lmfao)
>tfw no double post ;__;
DEOXYS-DEFENSE & DEOXYS-SPEED - KEEP

I want to talk about why the Deoxys forms should ultimately stay in this tier.

As you all probably know, Deoxys-Defense and Deoxys-Speed were banned from the Overused tier due to making something as difficult as stacking hazards multiple times in one game easy. The two Deoxys forms were banned for supporting their team extremely well and making nasty Hyper Offensive cores like the infamous DeoSharp, or Deoxys-Defense/Speed+Defiant Thundurus. From this, you probably are thinking, ">why is this kid wanting to keep thiese guys unbanned lmao xd", well I'll address that now. Deoxys-Defense and Deoxys-Speed were used in OU to heavily support certain team members, that usually carries Defiant or just had a tyrant-like offensive presence.

DEOXYS DEFENSE

Deoxys-Defense @ Mental Herb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Deoxys-Defense is an extremely defensive Pokemon that can set up hazards easily and support its Team Members very well. Its role in a Psychic-Monotype is to set hazards, and ultimately let Victini + Medicham-Mega/Gardevoir-Mega clean up the field, or just run a standard Balanced Psychic, and slowly allow your team to benefit from the Hazard support/Thunder Wave crippling.

Why Deoxys-Defense shouldn't be banned.

I feel that Deoxys-Defense is easily dealt with in all or most Monotypes.

• Steel can continuously wear Deoxys-Defense down with Genesect's U-Turn and continue to pivot into Excadrill, and possibly even Substitute Swords Dance on the Deoxys-Defense, if the Deoxys-Defense doesn't carry Taunt.

• Bug can literally Bug Buzz Deoxys to death with Galvantula, or even use Deoxys as Set-up fodder by using Tail Glow Volbeat.

• Fire can use Trick Rotom-Heat to lock Deoxys into a random, useless move. Also, Torkoal can spin away all of Deoxys' hazards with Rapid Spin.

• Water can spin away hazards using Tentacruel, or even use Deoxys as Set-up fodder with Substitute Calm Mind Keldeo.

• Ground can pretty much Rapid Spin the Hazards away, and just Wall Break Deoxys since the wide-spread immunity to Thunder Wave.

• Fairy can use Togekiss to Defog hazards away, and Mawile-mega can hit Deoxys hard with unboosted/+2 Play Roughs.

• Psychic can utilize Mew to Defog Hazards away, or use Substitute Calm Mind Mega Gardevoir to take advantage of Deoxys' weakness to Substitute Calm Mind sets.

• Fighting can use Scrafty to Dragon Dance all over Deoxys' face, and ultimately sweep early-game.

• Poison can use Nidoking to break through Deoxys, but sadly, Poison doesn't really have any reliable Defogger, unless you really wanna use Taunt Defog Crobat.

• Ice can use Mamoswine to break past Deoxys, or maybe use Taunt Froslass, if the Deoxys user isn't running Mental Herb for some reason. Ice can also spin hazards away with Avalugg.

• Ghost can take advantage of Deoxys and use Sub CM Chandelure, or you can use Sub Will-O-Wisp Hex Gengar to easily break through Deoxys.

tl;dr Deoxys-Defense pretty much gets fucked by any unexpected Sub CMer, Taunter, or Rapid Spinner/Defogger.

I think this is enough thoughts on Deoxys. If Hoopa was released, Deoxys would have a Spin Blocker, but Hoopa is too frail to pull the Spin Blocker job off well. If Psychic got a reliable Spin Blocker that wasn't frail, then I might rethink my decision.

DEOXYS SPEED

Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Knock Off

or

le rused (Deoxys-Speed) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Psycho Boost
- Knock Off / Thunder Wave / Hidden Power [Fire]

or

le rused (Deoxys-Speed) @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Thunder Wave
- Knock Off

Deoxys-Speed is generally just a faster Hazard setter, it helps stop sweeps with quick taunts, and can outspeed scarfers like Heracross. Deoxys-Speed can pull off many lead roles; it can effectively set Dual Screens, pull off a decent Life Orb set, or just be a faster Deoxys-Defense.

Why Deoxys-Speed should not be banned



• Deoxys-Speed is generally trumped by any Rapid Spinner.

• The Life Orb set is walled by any dedicated wall, also beaten by strong Priority.

• Things that have a decent ATK/SPA Stat can easily 2HKO/1HKO Deoxys-Speed.

• Hazard-lead sets don't last nearly as long enough to out-class Mew.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Well, I started to play monotype one week ago, and I look at this thread at the same time (I played OU a lot before). And really, many posts make me laugh sometimes. Now I'll give my opinion on this metagame.

First of all, Kyurem-W.
Yeah, this thing is powerfull. But definitely it shouldn't be banned. I started to play this metagame by building a monoice, because I like challenge, and because I wanted to know if Kyu-W is enough to win games. I first had some, and I asked for some advice on the Monotype chat. And guess what was the answer ? Skilled people like Animus Majulous told me not to play ice because it's a terrible typing, or just use Kyu-W as the whole monoice. If ice was OP right now, I think he wouldn't have answered it, and more people would play ice. Hopefully, I found a player called Frozen Gengar who helped me a lot in the teambuilding.
Now, what is monoice in practice, and why isn't Kyu-W banworthy ? The fact is that in a monoice, you're forced to run specific mons. No, specific sets on specific mons. You absolutely need that Rotom-F with Specs HP fire to get rid of Scizor and other Steel types. You need that icy rock Abo to spam Blizzard, because ice types are not that powerful, except Kyu-W ofc but even Kyu-W need it. You also need that Thick fat Walrein to check every fire types, Avalugg to have the best physical wall and that vital rapid spin, because rocks (and spikes) fuck your yeam, and even sticky is sneaky. You need the Mamo because ice shard, SR and Mamo is a great physical attacker (tbh, I was even forced to run Snow cloak to avoid some focus/fire blast). Finally, you need Psychic Froslass because fighting types and Dbond/Spikes can be fun, and you need Kyu-W because Kyu-W. So what ? You need 7 mons. (you don't need Kyu-B for elec coverage because Rotom and Abomasnow)
I made the choice not to use Froslass because imo it's really bad and isn't that usefull. As a Special attacker, I think Kyu-W is better, no ?

Now, with that teambuilding, you absolutely need to run Scarf Kyu-W with Blizzard/DM/Earth power/Fusion flare (so no focus miss). Indeed, it works well at killing some fighting types like the very common Medicham or non-scarf Keldeo/Terrakion, while being effective against the whole metagame. I think you can understand why roost variants are bad in monoice : you just can't afford the lack of power when Mcham can OHKO with HJK.

I don't say Monoice is bad, indeed it has a lot of good match-ups, but it is far from being invincible. Put an AV Conk and you'll have an hard time.
Even against Monobug or Monosteel, with that fucking genesect running rampant, this is really difficult to win. Each time Scarfsect come in, it can have a free KO with flash cannon or Iron head. I faces BugGenesect Test two times when laddering, he used a Monobug with sticky, and bandsect/LOsect. The first time, I didn't really pay attention to the sticky, and didn't have the time to remove it because momentum. Genesect just wrecked my team. Then, I removed the sticky early game, and killed that Galvantula. Guess what ? Genesect killed me once again, even if it was a close and fun match.


So, this is the perfect transition : while I think Kyu-W isn't banworthy, Genesect defenitively is. Arguing that no ice team can handle it would be both wrong and useless, because in fact Grass team have a hard time facing Kyu-W, relying on the lock for Ludicolo and on Breloom (which is also really a pain in the ass btw). To me, a pokemon is broken when it can support its team with little cost, bring up momentum and/or punch holes (and is overcentralizing but montype is already overcentralizing by nature). While Kyu-W fits this definition to some extent, it can just bring enough power to make ice viable, but that's all (not to mention the SR weakness but it has been said several times). Genesect, on the other side, can bring momentum and power to bug and steel which are already two really good types, and can use it properly. To me, Monotype is really different than OU, because if you can grab momentum/open a sweep/w/e and then no teammate can beneficiate from it, then this become useless. Magnezone trapping abilities to support MGyar for exemple become useless, and I think most people realized the Deo weren't banworthy, because no Deosharpslash. It is that simple. As far as Genesect can support its teammate against any kind of team and its teammates beneficiate greatly from it, then it's broken. I saw someone asking for a steel ban, but actually sticky support is incredible for Genesect, bug has amazing Mega, and honestly bug is a great type.(big fire weakness but this can be patched imo, and fire priority doesn't exist). So yeah, plz Ban Genesect.

About Shaymin-S, I didn't have any probs as Kyu-W and Mamo can easily kill it, but may be it is OP against any other team. I didn't use it, I don't think this is outright OP at first glance but the overreliance on luck is really bad, so I don't really know I don't really mind tbh.

I'll conclude this post by talking about Monoelec and the Zekrom proposal. I also tried Monoelec (and once again everyone on the chat told me not to use it, such a shame, if this is not centralization then what is it) and despite the only Ground weakness, it doesn't have any great physical attacker not a good answer to excadrill for exemple (and other probs but not gonna talk about it). Zekrom patches the first problem, even if it is still weak to Exca, and I can see the point of allowing it. However, it's not weak to SR, priority, and it's not forced to use a specific set to support its team. So I don't really know, it may seem OP but I don't think many people will use Monoelec thanks to it and it may not become overcentralizing. I let you decide whether we should test it or not.

 

[Auburn]

I'll conclude this post by talking about Monoelec and the Zekrom proposal. I also tried Monoelec (and once again everyone on the chat told me not to use it, such a shame, if this is not centralization then what is it) and despite the only Ground weakness, it doesn't have any great physical attacker not a good answer to excadrill for exemple (and other probs but not gonna talk about it). Zekrom patches the first problem, even if it is still weak to Exca, and I can see the point of allowing it. However, it's not weak to SR, priority, and it's not forced to use a specific set to support its team. So I don't really know, it may seem OP but I don't think many people will use Monoelec thanks to it and it may not become overcentralizing. I let you decide whether we should test it or not.

Well I'm a Electric User Myself, and i do not believe that Zekrom should be unbanned from Ubers for monotype. It's a good enough typing if played right. Having problems with Mega Venusaur? Specs Thundurus-Therian with Psychic works lovely on it, and with Excadrill having a physically defensive Zapdos works a charm against it, and i don't Really see a point in unbanning a Uber Legendary Poke with 100/150/120/120/100/90 stats, it'd have access to being both a Special Attacker, Physical Attacker, or Mixed Attacker. Electric also has access to Physical Attackers also going from Scarfed Electivire, Assault Vest Eelektross or Coiled Set, Guts Luxray, Sap Sipper Zebstrika (lol), and Physical Thundurus-I or Therian.

 

[Aquaslash]

First off, holy hell are people really talking about letting Zekrom in? Zek's gotta be like, my favorite uber. He's on nearly every team I build there. I think I know about about him to say that he has no business in an OU setting. He's so powerful that there is literally a team core in ubers that exists for the sole purpose of forcing his most popular (choiced) sets into 50/50s and severely punishing the wrong choice. My favorite set is the banded one, and even when it gets burned, he still OHKOs things left and right.

As for the drops, I play ice and dark, so I've been trying out Kyurem White. I feel like he gives us a fighting chance against steel, but he's not really broken. Opposing scarf kyurems are a pain though. I use a LO set, and it still gets worked over by fighting and certain steels. I've been legit OHKO'd by band scizor at least once. He also doesn't make an auto win against flying. Flying players are resourceful enough that they're prepared for him and anything else ice and throw at them, and I've had some really good battles against ice players. overall, I think he's ok.

I've seen a LOT of steel teams since these drops, but only one of them has had Genesect. He killed himself with explosion so I really couldn't judge there. Seen mawile all of twice, and I was able to breeze on past her both times. I'm actually gonna try out a fairy team just to use Mawile.

 

[Zar]

http://i.imgur.com/FFQddPB.png

Now,Why did we unban this thing?It can go on for days with a scarf :[.

 

[SketchUp]

Alright after testing all of the recent Pokemon that have been un-banned along with observing ladder games and carefully thinking of each of their impacts on the metagame, I have come to a decision on what my opinions are on each.

• 
  
  Deoxys Defense/Deoxys Speed - These two Pokemon were banned in OU for their broken combo with Bisharp, allowing them to successfully keep their hazards up while maintaining offensive presence. In monotype, obviously, they are limited to being within the Psychic monotype, and in this regard they do not nearly provide the unmatched ability to set up hazards as they do in the OU tier. Using Deoxys-Defense as a wall is, under most cases, outclassed by specially defensive mew as it has access to not only Will-o-Wisp but other important utility moves such as heal bell and defog. Deoxys-Speed shares a similar fate in that its ability to set hazards is outclassed, and its life orb attacking set is walled by any dedicated special wall as it severely lacks firepower. As it stands, Psychic monotypes already share a rather essential/overused core of Mew, Slowbro, and Gallade/Meloetta, and Deoxys-defense simply cannot make up for what these Pokemon do, and as a result, psychic monotypes in general do not have room for it. Because of these reasons, I believe that we should keep the deoxys.

• 
  Aegislash - Aegislash was quite an annoying Pokemon to deal with in monotype, mainly for its role that it played in forming the infamous steel core of Aegislash, Skarmory, and Heatran. Many monotypes were incapable of breaking through this core, and in this regard I feel as if Aegislash should not be able to be used on steel monotypes. Ghost, however, is a completely different story. Ghost monotypes in general lack viable physical attackers, and lacks the firepower and offense that Aegislash brings to the table. Ghosts monotypes are, at the moment, of lower tier and are forced to run Pokemon like Banette or even Duoblade for physical presence. Aegislash brings viability to Ghost without being abused or put over the edge, and due to this I believe that we should keep Aegislash for use on Ghost monotypes. For steel, however, bringing Aegislash would once again place Steel as one of the top Monotypes in the tier, with the neigh-unbreakable Aegislash/Skarmory/Heatran core. Because of this, I believe we should still ban Aegislash on steel.

• 
  Mawile - Mawile was banned in OU for its unmatched wallbreaking power and also its ability to sweep even offensive teams. In monotype, Mawile is home to the Fairy and Steel monotypes. Fairy as a type is similar to Ghost in that they lack viable physical attackers; without Mawile, Fairy users are forced to use Pokemon such as Granbull or Surpuff which are overall lackluster and really bring down the overall viability of Fairy in monotype. Consequently, I believe that Mawile should be able to be used on Fairy monotypes because not only of Fairy's physically offensive absence, Fairies lack a solid physically defensive Pokemon, and as a result have no real Pokemon to take the strong earthquakes and flare blitz that are the downfall of Mawile. Mawile remains to be a strong Pokemon no doubt, but is at home on Fairy monotypes as it is not brought to overt brokenness. On Steel monotype however, Heatran and Skarmory provide excellent partners to Mawile as they can easily sponge the respective ground move or fire move and as a result provide many set up opportunities for Mawile, which cause it to be as broken as it was in OU.Due to these reasons I believe that we should keep Mawile for fairy and ban Mawile for steel.

• 
  Genesect - Oh man, how scary this thing is. Ever since the idea of unbanning Genesect was thought of in the monotype room, I have questioned what the community was thinking. To begin, I will state that both Bug and Steel were completely viability mid-high tier monotypes that certainly did not need the truly gamebreaking Pokemon that is known as Genesect. As such, I am truly dumbfounded as to why this was ever unbanned; all that Genesect ever has to do is spam u-turn and it still becomes appallingly broken. I believe we all know Genesect's utility and power, so I won't get into that. Instead, I will go into how it breaks Monotype by single-handedly sweeping a few types. Let's begin with how it fares on Steel monotypes.

1. Steel has naturally had a bad match-up with flying, one thing setting steel apart from being one of the top monotypes. Let's all take a moment to think of how incredibly Genesect rapes flying. Assuming the scarf variant, If Genesect switches in on a Skarmory or a Landorus-Therian and gets the download boost for Special Attack, quite literally nothing apart from Articuno will enjoy taking a +1 ice beam, and Articuno is generally overlooked on flying monotypes due to its crippling 4x stealth rock weakness. This fact alone proves that Genesect is broken. Flying teams are forced to run things like Articuno or specially defensive Charizard x or y to stop Genesect's ice beam, all of which absolutely hate stealth rock which does not aid their ability to take Genesect's hits. It is quite obvious then, that Genesect tilts Steel vs Flying to Steel's favor.
2. Another of Steel's bad matchups, Dark, shares a similar fate, in that it is completely wrecked by Genesect. Nothing will enjoy taking a u-turn, unboosted or not, and if Genesect runs Bug buzz, it will spell doom for the dark player, as you can see in one of Auburns replays. Gone are the days of Greninja and mixed Mega-Tyranitar picking apart Steel's feeble Skarmory/Heatran core. Genesect is the ultimate wall breaker that possesses the ability to single-handedly sweep Dark. That is two matchups that Genesect has skewed for Steel.
3. But wait! There is a third matchup as well. Ever since the banishment of Aegislash, Psychic monotypes have had an upper hand on the Steel matchup, as both Mega-Medicham and Mega-Gardevoir eat up Steel alive (mostly medicham). Psychic, however, is similar to Dark in that it has literally no safe switch ins for Genesect's terrifying boosted u-turns and bug-buzzes. Psychic's premier walls Meloetta, Gallade, Mew, and Slowbro are all 2HKOd by U-turn and Slowbro is OHKO'd by Bug Buzz. In this regard, Psychic's only hope is to outspeed and OHKO Genesect with scarfed Victini. But it isn't that easy. Steel monotypes, of course, have Heatran, who will eat up poor Victini's V-Create, and even Bolt-Strike if it attempts to predict, and will respond with a super-effective Earth power. This makes three matchups that Genesect will completely skew in favor of Steel, all by itself.
4. This alone proves reason enough to definitely Ban genesect for both steel and bug. I have not had much testing with bug, but clearly just looking at how it demolishes three types is safe enough to say that it is broken on bug as well.

• 
  Kyurem-White - Ah, how broken and inconceivable this pokemon seemed before it was unbanned. Yes, it is an amazing pokemon with fantastic power and yes, it is a tremendous asset to ice teams, however, you are unfortunately limited to either Kyurem-white or his brother Kyurem-black on an ice team due to species clause. But wait, most people would say "wow kyurem-white is uber and kyurem-black is OU, obviously i'm going to pick kyurem-white...", and while this may seem true, Kyurem-black is almost essential on ice teams because of its incredibly powerful fusion bolt that gives ice the upper hand on its bad match-up of water. Due to this, 9 times out of 10 I will be picking Kyurem-black on my mono ice team, and this proves that Kyurem-white is not broken, but just an amazing Pokemon to use. Because of this, I believe that we should keep Kyurem-white for use on ice teams(I hope I don't regret this).

• 
  Shaymin-Sky - I need more testing on this, coming soon.

I agree with you. Genesect and Shaymin-Sky need to be banned again, but I don't think Kyurem-W and Deoxys have a too big impact on the metagame, so I think they deserve to stay. Aegislash for Ghost-Only and Mawile for Fairy-Only is fair too. They seem to good to be in mono steel but their other types really need them (however, fairy can still use Gardevoir as mega, but a nice physical attacker is steel nice for them)

 

[scpinion]

Hi Friends,

scpinion here; the new monotype tiering system finally gave me a reason to join the Smogon community. Monotype is my favorite tier and I want to make sure I offer my viewpoints on the changes that will coming over the next couple weeks. I've only had mobile since the server restart so I'm just now able to post this despite thinking about it for the past couple days.

First, I agree with dm35, before we continue making comments/suggestions on the individual 'mons it would be best to establish what is ban-worthy and specifically state what the goal for the tier is:

Heard a lot of people asking for bans already, but before we introduce more bans, if we are going to run a separate tiering system, we need a separate set of rules to determine what is and what isn't banworthy.

Looking at the last 2 bans in monotype, talonflame and damp rock, it seems that the general formula for banning atm is if something forces several different types teams to run several obscure sets/mons to have a chance in beating it. Evidence of this can be seen from the talonflame ban, where grass in particular had to run these obscure checks, and fighting and bug were not far behind.

On to the new mons that have been unbanned:

I'm not saying dm's criteria are what we should go by, but that the criteria should be established ASAP, such that we may make best use of our ~2 weeks for evaluation.

It seems there have been two options outlined thus far; and a consensus, or declaration from the admin, as to which is 'correct' is missing (please correct if I'm wrong):

1. Along the lines of dm35's post, ban pokemon that are "overcentralizing" or force multiple types to run specific sets/mons to stand a chance in a battle against a competent player. As dm said, talonflame is a great example, where grass, bug and fighting had trouble checking it. To me, this would be maintaining the status quo from before the unbans (with the addition of things deemed non-broken).
2. Bring down uber mons for underused types with the goal of creating equal usage among the various types. Skymin is, perhaps, the best example of this philosophy in action because it has brought grass usage up and, in turn, deterred the use of water, ground and fighting, which were previously common types (esp. at the top of the ladder). This option certainly leads to a more matchup based meta, as has been brought up by a number of other users in this thread

These are two very different routes for the tier and when developing my opinions on the new 'mons having an idea of what the end picture should look like would be immensely helpful.

I'm glad to finally join the Smogon community and look forward to seeing how the monotype meta develops.

-scp