Resource Don't Use That, Use This Instead

[Evan.]

Fire Types wall your set; and, with Fire Spam becoming so common, your set is even worse. It's better to run Hidden Power ROCK instead as it covers its weaknesses better. (Flareon would wall your set to hell and back and is the best in my opinion due to Physical Fire-Type and gargantuan special defense) Although you don't have the ability to hit Ferroseed, you lack a lot of coverage without it. Rock hits Flying, Ice and Fire Types that would otherwise bulk a Giga Drain. Serperior also gets access to Taunt, which is always helpful in any situation, especially for stuff that tries to wall or set up on you (AUDINO)

Personally, I think that Serperior is outclassed by Simisage as a setup sweeper. Simisage has the ability to boost its special attack faster than Serperior, also has access to Overgrow for Giga Drain, and can run three moves because of it. It doesn't need to require Substitute to be effective.

Here's a set I recommend using:

Simisage @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Why it's better: The reason why I think it's better because it doesn't require Substitute to set up effectively; Hence, like most Nasty Plot sweepers, it can use three moves. This set only gets resisted by Croagunk and Honedge (the only pokes allowed in the Neverused Tier and are both BAD?) and that it provides neat coverage against threats. It can take on the Ferroseed/Seismitoad core with Focus Blast and Giga Drain, respectively; It also has the ability to outspeed Typhlosion by one base point (amazing feat, considering many of them nowadays run Specs instead of Scarf) and that it generally dents walls better than Serperior AND Lilligant without having to worry about coverage. With focus Blast, it can dent steel types that attempt to wall this set. Giga Drain is staple. Hidden Power [Rock] is chosen because it finishes off its almost-perfect coverage and to take out slower threats. Overgrow is amazing on this set to gain back all its HP with a 1.5x boost, which is neat. This poke works like Sceptile but it has the ability to set up in the face of its opponent. It also finds a rather easy time setting up due to its coverage as well and that it can do a lot of damage if unprepared. If it were up to me, it also outclasses Sceptile for the same reasons. It also hits harder than Serperior after a few boosts as well with a naturally higher attack set and a very decent speed stat; meaning that it can outspeed stuff like Serperior. It does have a little trouble with status; but it is able to run a Lum berry if that's a problem. It'll dent, or even sweep unprepared teams if you play it correctly.

First, Lilligant should only be running HP fire as a way to get around Ferroseed. Fire types can just be put to sleep whereas Ferroseed hard walls the HP Rock set to no end.

Second, I don't think that the Serperior set that is the kind of set that is supposed to be featured in this thread. SubCM Serperior isn't a bad set, it has nice bulk and is fast enough to make the set work. This thread should be reserved for sets that are severly outclassed by another set that a mon should be running or for mons just running plainly inefficient sets. The Serperior set listed above fits in neither of these categories.

 

[The Goomy]

Fire Types AND Dragon Types wall your set; and, with Fire Spam becoming so common, your set is even worse. It's better to run Hidden Power ROCK instead as it covers its weaknesses better. (Flareon would wall your set to hell and back and is the best in my opinion due to Physical Fire-Type and gargantuan special defense; and Dragalge fears nothing.) Although you don't have the ability to hit Ferroseed, you lack a lot of coverage without it. Rock hits Flying, Ice and Fire Types that would otherwise bulk a Giga Drain. Serperior also gets access to Taunt, which is always helpful in any situation, especially for stuff that tries to wall or set up on you (AUDINO)

Personally, I think that Serperior is outclassed by Simisage as a setup sweeper. Simisage has the ability to boost its special attack faster than Serperior, also has access to Overgrow for Giga Drain, and can run three moves because of it. It doesn't need to require Substitute to be effective.

Here's a set I recommend using:

Simisage @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Why it's better: The reason why I think it's better because it doesn't require Substitute to set up effectively; Hence, like most Nasty Plot sweepers, it can use three moves. This set only gets resisted by Croagunk and Honedge (the only pokes allowed in the Neverused Tier and are both BAD?) and that it provides neat coverage against threats. It can take on the Ferroseed/Seismitoad core with Focus Blast and Giga Drain, respectively; It also has the ability to outspeed Typhlosion by one base point (amazing feat, considering many of them nowadays run Specs instead of Scarf) and that it generally dents walls better than Serperior AND Lilligant without having to worry about coverage. With focus Blast, it can dent steel types that attempt to wall this set. Giga Drain is staple. Hidden Power [Rock] is chosen because it finishes off its almost-perfect coverage and to take out slower threats. Overgrow is amazing on this set to gain back all its HP with a 1.5x boost, which is neat. This poke works like Sceptile but it has the ability to set up in the face of its opponent. It also finds a rather easy time setting up due to its coverage as well and that it can do a lot of damage if unprepared. If it were up to me, it also outclasses Sceptile for the same reasons. It also hits harder than Serperior after a few boosts as well with a naturally higher attack set and a very decent speed stat; meaning that it can outspeed stuff like Serperior. It does have a little trouble with status; but it is able to run a Lum berry if that's a problem. It'll dent, or even sweep unprepared teams if you play it correctly.

Although Lilligant gets Sleep Powder, it's very predictable now-a-days and due to its two-move coverage, many people have answers to it. (e.g. HP Fire = fire types, HP Rock = steel types). In Simisage's case, many people switch out to an appropriate threat thinking that it'll just Giga Drain. Nasty Plot becomes the suprise factor that can rip through teams and that its speed is rather hard to come past. Also, it can OHKO Swellow on the switch with HP rock, meaning that it has one less threat. It can also take out threats that would think they can wall it, such as most steels; whereas Lilligant struggles to take out WHOLE TYPES in its coverage.

Ok. Lilligant SHOULD run HP Fire over HP Rock. Or even HP Ice because it hits Altaria/Dragalge. HP Rock is terrible in this meta.

In addition. Saying a mon gets walled by certain types doesn't make it bad.
(For example, your set loses to Dragalge too, and Vileplume, and really any poison type)

Sub is nice on Serperior because it also allows it to block annoying status, and even prevent it from being hit directly with priority, which simisage is extremely weak to (Fake Out, sucker punch, ice shard, mach punch all hit it hard)

I think that the lack of Sleep Powder is also kind-of eye-opening, since it actually gives Lilligant ways to beat mons that ~would counter it.

Also. I agree with Can-eh-dian that the OP about Lilligant isn't actually the point of this thread, and regardless, Simisage is not a better alternative, as Lilligant is basically the best offensive special grass type in the tier.

 

[realiti]

Don't Use This:


Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor
- Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass

Why it's bad: Shedinja may seem attractive at first. Its ability Wonder Guard allows it to not take any damage from 12 types, only taking damage from Fire-type, Ghost-Type, Dark-Type, Flying-Type, and Rock-Type moves. It also seems to have some great support moves like Will-O-Wisp and Baton Pass. Futhermore, it can wall some big threats in the tier, such as Kangaskhan and Feraligatr. Sadly, Shedinja only has 1 HP, so it cannot take a super-effective hit; when one or two super-effective moves are used against Shedinja, it would immediately faint. It can also die to entry hazards and status, which are very common in the NU tier. Because of these negative traits Shedinja produces, it is not recommended to be used it the NU tier.

Use this instead:
Honestly, almost any other Pokemon can perform better. However, some Pokemon can do the role Shedinja tries to do; to be a good wall to some top tier threats as well as being a good pivot.


Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Gyro Ball

Ferroseed is an example of a Pokemon that can wall top-tier threats, support the team, and take most hits better than Shedinja. It still walls about the same amount of threats that Shedinja walls, possibly more, and does not need massive support like Shedinja to function well. Through entry hazards and Leech Seed, it can annoy the opposing team and help your team break the opposing team more easily. It also has a pretty high power Gyro Ball that makes up for its below average attack stat. Overall, I feel like Ferroseed is the best example of how easily Shedinja's role can be filled in.

 

[Fluze3]

Don't Use This:


Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor
- Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass

Why it's bad: Shedinja may seem attractive at first. Its ability Wonder Guard allows it to not take any damage from 12 types, only taking damage from Fire-type, Ghost-Type, Dark-Type, Flying-Type, and Rock-Type moves. It also seems to have some great support moves like Will-O-Wisp and Baton Pass. Futhermore, it can wall some big threats in the tier, such as Kangaskhan and Feraligatr. Sadly, Shedinja only has 1 HP, so it cannot take a super-effective hit; when one or two super-effective moves are used against Shedinja, it would immediately faint. It can also die to entry hazards and status, which are very common in the NU tier. Because of these negative traits Shedinja produces, it is not recommended to be used it the NU tier.

Use this instead:
Honestly, almost any other Pokemon can perform better. However, some Pokemon can do the role Shedinja tries to do; to be a good wall to some top tier threats as well as being a good pivot.


Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Gyro Ball

Ferroseed is an example of a Pokemon that can wall top-tier threats, support the team, and take most hits better than Shedinja. It still walls about the same amount of threats that Shedinja walls, possibly more, and does not need massive support like Shedinja to function well. Through entry hazards and Leech Seed, it can annoy the opposing team and help your team break the opposing team more easily. It also has a pretty high power Gyro Ball that makes up for its below average attack stat. Overall, I feel like Ferroseed is the best example of how easily Shedinja's role can be filled in.

One has the role of a hazard setter and physical wall and one has a role of bulky (even though it has speed and not HP) attacker. Personally, these are not comparable.

EDIT: reserving offensive lickilicky --> bouffalant (doing asap)

Don't use this:

Lickilicky @ Lum Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return / Body Slam
- Power Whip
- Fire Punch

Why it's bad: The infamous offensive lickilicky set. It's got some niches, which can't be denied. First of all, its nice bulk allows it to set up very nicely, meaning that it can have an impact. Also, with its normal typing, it only has one weakness, but only one resistance; meaning that you can switch in on weak special moves bluffing a defensive set, and then completely going through teams. However, even with investment in attack, it's attack is rather sub-par and that its bulk should be utilized more. Which, leads me to my suggestion.

Bouffalant @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Return / Head Charge
- Earthquake

Why it's better: This thing is so underrated. Nice bulk, a very usable attack stat and TWO immunities and only one weakness; meaning that it still has a way better time setting up than Lickilicky. It also can check one of the most potent special sweepers in NU -- Lilligant. It also becomes a nice sleep absorber considering most of the sleep inducing moves are Sleep Powder. It also can set up in almost all Quiver Dancer's faces. At +2, it becomes an amazing stallbreaker AND wallbreaker up, and with Sub ridding it of status issues, it is simply amazing.

The two coverage moves chosen provide the most coverage, and doesn't hit a handful of pokes super effectively. Also, even though this set gets walled by Ferroseed, it can sub on it, blocking Toxic, Thunder Wave, etc. and use it as setup fodder especially because it absorbs leech seed.

=============================

Poke's Roles: Bulky Attacker, Setup Sweeper, NORMAL TYPE

 

[realiti]

One has the role of a hazard setter and physical wall and one has a role of bulky (even though it has speed and not HP) attacker. Personally, these are not comparable.

Do you have any suggestions for replacing shedinja then?

 

[Fluze3]

Do you have any suggestions for replacing shedinja then?

Well, you can always suggest something like Pineco.

Pineco @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Bug Bite / Toxic Spikes

Why it's bad: horrible defensive typing and weakness to all forms of entry hazards. Although it can remove hazards as well as place them, it has a poor Special Defense stat and has a poor HP stat to complement it. 90 Base defense isn't the best because of its poor HP Stat.

 

[realiti]

Well, you can always suggest something like Pineco.

Pineco @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Bug Bite / Toxic Spikes

Can you tell me how this replaces Shedinja well? Pineco is meant to be a hazard setter just like Ferroseed. jw

 

[Fluze3]

Can you tell me how this replaces Shedinja well? Pineco is meant to be a hazard setter just like Ferroseed. jw

Shedinja does not supply any support for its team except for Baton Pass. It's weak to SR, so it requires support to rid them off the field. Therefore, it's just too bad to compare. Pineco fulfills the same role as Ferroseed (hazard setter and physical wall) and has a place on somewhat offensive and defensive teams; where Shedinja only exists on gimmicky teams or stall teams.

 

[realiti]

Shedinja does not supply any support for its team except for Baton Pass. It's weak to SR, so it requires support to rid them off the field. Therefore, it's just too bad to compare. Pineco fulfills the same role as Ferroseed (hazard setter and physical wall) and has a place on somewhat offensive and defensive teams; where Shedinja only exists on gimmicky teams or stall teams.

Oh I misunderstood you, I was meaning something to suggest using over shedinja

 

[Blast]

Shedinja does not supply any support for its team except for Baton Pass. It's weak to SR, so it requires support to rid them off the field. Therefore, it's just too bad to compare. Pineco fulfills the same role as Ferroseed (hazard setter and physical wall) and has a place on somewhat offensive and defensive teams; where Shedinja only exists on gimmicky teams or stall teams.

Pineco is a terrible Pokemon and that set you posted is completely awful .-. It walls absolutely nothing and your set in particular literally can't do anything at all but set up entry hazards, which is shit because there isn't a single Pokemon in the tier you can set them up on barring Sturdy. And no one uses it anyway so there's zero point in adding it.

I don't even know if Shedinja is even really worth being put on this list given that people generally aren't using it to begin with either given that it's PU in usage, plus its niche is kinda too specific to really be "replaced" by anything, js.

 

[Brambane]

Let's be honest, Shedinja's only niche is to create embarrassing replays of top NU players losing to it so we can laugh at them on IRC

 

[ryan]

Shedinja isn't even a terrible Pokemon. The problem with it is that it is often used by terrible battlers, and you really have to build your entire team around it if you want it to work well. Think about some of the top Pokemon in the metagame and how well good teams built around Shedinja handle them.

Feraligatr: carries no coverage to hit Shedinja
Slurpuff: CM sets aren't that hard to handle, and BD sets usually use Substitute or some other random filler move over Flamethrower. even if they do run Flamethrower, with your Sash intact, you can burn it.
Mesprit: HP Fire variants are easily covered by Xatu, which should be on your team, and sets with Ice Beam/Thunderbolt are walled by Shedinja
Samurott: carries no coverage to hit Shedinja except for the very rare SD Knock Off sets
Kangaskhan: can only hit you with Sucker Punch, and you can burn it
Uxie: can't touch you
Vileplume: can't touch you except by Effect Spore poison which is highly unlikely

This is just stuff in S and A rank, and it covers all of S. Everything else is still susceptible to being burned on the switch or in exchange for your Focus Sash, which is quite often worth it.

Shedinja doesn't deserve all the hate it gets, but you shouldn't use it unless you feel really comfortable with the metagame and your teambuilding abilities. It's not an easy Pokemon to use well, but it's certainly viable.

 

[Toljik]

Pineco is a terrible Pokemon and that set you posted is completely awful .-. It walls absolutely nothing and your set in particular literally can't do anything at all but set up entry hazards, which is shit because there isn't a single Pokemon in the tier you can set them up on barring Sturdy. And no one uses it anyway so there's zero point in adding it.

I don't even know if Shedinja is even really worth being put on this list given that people generally aren't using it to begin with either given that it's PU in usage, plus its niche is kinda too specific to really be "replaced" by anything, js.

I think you misread that comment. Fluze3's point was that Pineco's an example of a shittier version of Ferroseed (unless you're using that gimmicky Level 1 set or something). You're agreeing with him.

 

[Blast]

I think you misread that comment. Fluze3's point was that Pineco's an example of a shittier version of Ferroseed (unless you're using that gimmicky Level 1 set or something). You're agreeing with him.

I was saying that if no one uses the set anyway then there's no point in adding it since this thread is for ~overrated~ yet bad sets. It makes no sense to compare a defensive Eviolite Pineco to Ferroseed when the former is nonexistent to begin with

 

[Bazi]

I know this is kind of obvious but no one's posted it here yet and Armaldo is somehow getting more usage then Sawk, Gurdurr and Sceptile.

Don't use this:

Armaldo @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor / Aqua Tail
- Rapid Spin
- Swords Dance

Why it's bad: Armaldo is a decent option for rain teams in need of a rapid spinner, but since Kabutops dropped it is simply outclassed. Armaldo has terrible typing leaving it with only two resistances and a weakness to stealth rocks, as well as terrible speed outside of rain allowing it to be easily revenge killed before it can spin. This used to be Armaldo's only viable set but now I really don't see any reason to use it.

Use this instead:

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Rapid Spin
- Swords Dance / Knock Off

Why it's better: Kabutops is definitely a better spinner for rain teams due to the fact it has greater speed, a much better typing that lets it do things like soft check Flying and Choiced Fire types as well as giving it STAB on its rain boosted water moves and because it still beats all the spin blockers Armaldo beats. Kabutop is also a much better spinner outside of rain than Armaldo but then again so is pretty much every spinner.

 

[Fluze3]

I know this is kind of obvious but no one's posted it here yet and Armaldo is somehow getting more usage then Sawk, Gurdurr and Sceptile.

Don't use this:

Armaldo @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor / Aqua Tail
- Rapid Spin
- Swords Dance

Why it's bad: Armaldo is a decent option for rain teams in need of a rapid spinner, but since Kabutops dropped it is simply outclassed. Armaldo has terrible typing leaving it with only two resistances and a weakness to stealth rocks, as well as terrible speed outside of rain allowing it to be easily revenge killed before it can spin. This used to be Armaldo's only viable set but now I really don't see any reason to use it.

Use this instead:

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Rapid Spin
- Swords Dance / Knock Off

Why it's better: Kabutops is defiantly a better spinner for rain teams due to the fact it has greater speed, a much better typing that lets it do things like soft check Flying and Choiced Fire types as well as giving it STAB on its rain boosted water moves and because it still beats all the spin blockers Armaldo beats. Kabutop is also a much better spinner outside of rain than Armaldo but then again so is pretty much every spinner.

Grats, you can check deleted comments.

Armaldo's Usage:
Ability: Battle Armor 83.065%
Item: Assault Vest 33.569%

Your set about Armaldo is extremely uncommon.

Although they fulfill the same role as each other (in this case), Armaldo has a STRONGLY better typing than Kabutops. Armaldo doesn't sport a 4x weakness to one of the most trending types in the game to run -- Grass. Armaldo is only weak to Rock and Water, whereas Kabutops is weak to the common Fighting, Ground, Grass and Electric.

Armaldo is now seen on the defensive or using Assault Vest to perform its typing to the maximum potential. Also, outside of Rain, Armaldo hits harder. Both have a good STAB combination, though. Even though Armaldo can hit Ferroseed neutrally. (doesn't do that much LOL)

Armaldo has its niches over Kabutops, but you've given Armaldo the role of an offensive rain spinner -- which, was never particularly good in the first place. It's more seen now outside of rain, or better yet, in Trick Room, as one of the most powerful spinners in the game.

Armaldo isn't revenged easily. Unless it's weakened to an extent, it can be taken out. No priority would do no more than 3HKO it bar Gatr's Aqua Jet and that compared to Kabutops, it has a lot of bulk on both sides of defenses.

If anything, the only other offensive spinner in the tier is Cryogonal; and, this can't be compared to it. Armaldo can be compared to the likes of Torkoal and Sandslash as a bulky hazard remover, but not to an offensive behemoth in Rain that's Kabutops.

Before Kabutops joined NU, even Wartortle outclasses Armaldo in Rain as a spinner due to Rain Dish giving it somewhat good recovery. Heck, even Tentacool. But, Armaldo doesn't really suit on Rain Teams anymore because there are faster pokes such as Qwilfish that can utilize Rain better on the offensive. It would need to sacrifice bulk for speed; and Armaldo's only niche over other spinners is its Bulk while still retaining an offensive presence.

Even with Rain, Armaldo is slow and can be revenged by common scarfers with prior damage.

 

[Punchshroom]

Grats, you can check deleted comments.

Armaldo's Usage:
Ability: Battle Armor 83.065%
Item: Assault Vest 33.569%

Your set about Armaldo is extremely uncommon.

This by itself warrants a mention of "Don't Use This", because Assault Vest Armaldo is commonly regarded as mediocre at best, complete ass at worst.

Although they fulfill the same role as each other (in this case), Armaldo has a STRONGLY better typing than Kabutops. Armaldo doesn't sport a 4x weakness to one of the most trending types in the game to run -- Grass. Armaldo is only weak to Rock and Water, whereas Kabutops is weak to the common Fighting, Ground, Grass and Electric.

Armaldo is also weak to Steel btw. What is more important is that Armaldo has almost no good resistances to speak of, and being weak to Water and Stealth Rock is also pretty bad when one is as slow as Armaldo. Kabutops not only resists both types that Armaldo resists, but also resists Fire, Flying, and Ice (bar Freeze Dry). Kabutops at the very least outspeeds the majority of its weaknesses and attacks with hard-to-resist dual STABs (Kabutops has a far better offensive typing than Armaldo) or STAB Aqua Jet; Armaldo is usually easily beaten by Water-, Rock-, and Steel-types the majority of the time.

Armaldo is now seen on the defensive or using Assault Vest to perform its typing to the maximum potential. Also, outside of Rain, Armaldo hits harder. Both have a good STAB combination, though. Even though Armaldo can hit Ferroseed neutrally. (doesn't do that much LOL)

Defensive / Assault Vest Armaldo is actually not even in its analysis; it doesn't wall much at all since it hardly resists much of anything (why do you think Crustle is used as a suicide lead despite its good Defense?) and it is really hazard weak as well. Armaldo only hits marginally harder outside of Rain, and that advantage is also mitigated due to Kabutop's superior offensive typing including STAB Aqua Jet; because at least both of Tops's STABs aren't resisted by Fighting- and Steel-types.

Armaldo has its niches over Kabutops, but you've given Armaldo the role of an offensive rain spinner -- which, was never particularly good in the first place. It's more seen now outside of rain, or better yet, in Trick Room, as one of the most powerful spinners in the game.

Offensive spinner Armaldo is its most effective set, and Bazi is right that Armaldo is truly overshadowed right now. I think I'd rather use a more hazard resistant spinner for Trick Room such as Sandslash, even tho spinning under Trick Room is a pretty good way to kill momentum regardless.

Armaldo isn't revenged easily. Unless it's weakened to an extent, it can be taken out. No priority would do no more than 3HKO it bar Gatr's Aqua Jet and that compared to Kabutops, it has a lot of bulk on both sides of defenses.

Now here's what puzzles me: you say Armaldo should be used outside of Rain, and now you say it isn't easily revenged? Why would anyone want to hit Armaldo with priority, since it is so slow? The most common priority users one can now expect to see would be Feraligatr, Kabutops itself, Gurdurr, Pawniard, Hariyama, Kangaskhan, and Liepard. The former five have no need to resort to priority to beat Armaldo, while Kabutops can dodge Sucker Punch with Aqua Jet anyway if it is faster (needs Rain for Liepard, but Rain Aqua Jet hurts Liepard hard). Kabutops's physical bulk is not even that far behind Armaldo's.

If anything, the only other offensive spinner in the tier is Cryogonal; and, this can't be compared to it. Armaldo can be compared to the likes of Torkoal and Sandslash as a bulky hazard remover, but not to an offensive behemoth in Rain that's Kabutops.

Swords Dance Sandslash and even Shell Smash Torkoal can totally function as offensive spinners; Sandslash is also stealing much of Armaldo's thunder as a bulky spinner with Swords Dance + Knock Off that can afford offensive investment that also resists Stealth Rock.

Before Kabutops joined NU, even Wartortle outclasses Armaldo in Rain as a spinner due to Rain Dish giving it somewhat good recovery. Heck, even Tentacool. But, Armaldo doesn't really suit on Rain Teams anymore because there are faster pokes such as Qwilfish that can utilize Rain better on the offensive. It would need to sacrifice bulk for speed; and Armaldo's only niche over other spinners is its Bulk while still retaining an offensive presence. Even with Rain, Armaldo is slow and can be revenged by common scarfers with prior damage.

Armaldo managed to fit on Rain teams since it does not kill all offensive momentum just to be able to spin. That was basically Armaldo's best niche before Kabutops showed up. Rain Armaldo isn't even meant to sweep, it was just a spinner that can occasionally holepunch, unlike the momentum-killing Water-type spinners you suggested.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

sorry if I sound rude in this post, I assure you I'm not

also Punch ninjad me but I already typed it out so I'm not deleting all of this

Grats, you can check deleted comments.

Armaldo's Usage:
Ability: Battle Armor 83.065%
Item: Assault Vest 33.569%

Your set about Armaldo is extremely uncommon.

your point?

Armaldo used to be a great spinner under rain and it was hands down the best set. With Kabutops in the tier now though it's a decent idea to make a note that rain Armaldo doesn't have too great of a niche anymore despite what it was prior. In fact, Bazi did say this...

Although they fulfill the same role as each other (in this case), Armaldo has a STRONGLY better typing than Kabutops. Armaldo doesn't sport a 4x weakness to one of the most trending types in the game to run -- Grass. Armaldo is only weak to Rock and Water, whereas Kabutops is weak to the common Fighting, Ground, Grass and Electric.

- Armaldo may not be weak to as many things but it has a lot fewer resistances; the only thing that it resists is Normal, which Kabutops also does. This lack of resistances kinda hurts Armaldo, coupled with the fact that it's sadly weak to Stealth Rock
- Kabutops being weak to those types probably doesn't matter too much. Fighting-types all outslow it and Gurdurr cannot OHKO with Mach Punch. Same with Electric-types. maybe Grass-types do take on Kabutops but most of them don't appreciate a +2 Stone Edge, especially after prior damage, but I'll give this one to you. And Ground-types just die to Waterfall.

Ya maybe you can say the same about Armaldo's Speed in rain. However, Kabutops has several big advantages over it: it's a hell of a lot faster and it gets Water STAB, which is great especially under rain. Armaldo's STAB combination is nowhere near as good as Kabutops's because it misses out on stuff like Steel-types and Fighting-types, meaning Armaldo needs to either sacrifice a STAB or Swords Dance to hit them.

Armaldo is now seen on the defensive or using Assault Vest to perform its typing to the maximum potential.

Defensive Armaldo isnt very good because, like mentioned, it lacks important resistances which means it cannot continuously take hits unlike Pokemon such as Rhydon. This makes Pokemon like Rhydon/Steelix better because their typing actually means something and they aren't weak to SR

Also, outside of Rain, Armaldo hits harder. Both have a good STAB combination, though. Even though Armaldo can hit Ferroseed neutrally. (doesn't do that much LOL)

- Armaldo is still a lot slower than Kabutops, and moreover, it's on a rain team for a reason... In addition Kabutops gets a lot better coverage with its dual STABs meaning it hits a variety of threats; Armaldo would have to sacrifice a STAB if it wants to hit Pokemon like Steel-types or bulky Fighting-types.
- Kabutops happens to be able to lure Ferroseed with Superpower and some prior damage. Even if you ignore that, why do you even bring it up as a flaw of Kabutops even when it applies to Armaldo...

Armaldo has its niches over Kabutops, but you've given Armaldo the role of an offensive rain spinner -- which, was never particularly good in the first place.

cool story, what was a "particularly good" Armaldo set in the first place then?

Before Kabutops joined NU, even Wartortle outclasses Armaldo in Rain as a spinner due to Rain Dish giving it somewhat good recovery. Heck, even Tentacool. But, Armaldo doesn't really suit on Rain Teams anymore because there are faster pokes such as Qwilfish that can utilize Rain better on the offensive.

Uh what the heck? Wartortle and Tentacool have zero offensive presence and absolutely kill momentum. Foresight Wartortle also is illegal with Rain Dish so it can't spin very effectively either. Armaldo used to be good in rain because it could actually beat spinblockers by outspeeding and KOing, and thereafter outspeeding and getting a spin off.

It would need to sacrifice bulk for speed; and Armaldo's only niche over other spinners is its Bulk while still retaining an offensive presence.

Even with Rain, Armaldo is slow and can be revenged by common scarfers with prior damage.

Be reminded that Sandslash arguably does it better because it has better resistances and can hit a larger bunch of threats for neutral with fewer moves. In addition, it's not worn down as easily as Armaldo. This means that even after Sandslash beats the spinblocker, it'll likely be healthy enough to spin. That is not always the case for Armaldo.

As for the second part of this quote, yup that's why you use Kabutops as a rain spinner now, over Armaldo.

 

[termi]

Do not use:

Kabutops @ Assault Vest
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe (or something along those lines)
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet/Knock Off

Why it's bad: This thing looks to me like a new little hype thing on the ladder, I've seen a couple of these already and knowing the average ladder player, it will become a very common set, but I'm honestly unsure why anyone would consider this thing to be a decent AV user. Its special bulk is rather bad, even when boosted by AV it's only mediocre, and in addition to that its defensive typing is rather bad. It's also worn down very easily so you really can't rely on it taking many hits at all. It doesn't really lose out on any important moves (SR and SD are options, but Kabutops has 4MSS as is, so these generally aren't considered), but it's just an outclassed set.


Use this instead:

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim/Weak Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet/Knock Off/Superpower

Why it's better: Kabutops isn't meant to take hits due to its mediocre bulk and bad defensive typing, so you're much better off going full offensive. Thanks to LO it just hits a lot harder and is much harder to switch into. Being speedier now means that it outspeeds and deals nice damage to a lot of threats in the meta, such as Feraligatr and bulkier Klinklang. The LO boost definitely matters, especially when picking off weakened threats with Aqua Jet. For example, LO Kabutops has a solid chance of OHKOing Mild Magmortar with Aqua Jet, whereas AV has no chance of doing so without SR on the field. A Pokemon with a nice speed tier and a neat offensive typing as well as the Attack stat to back it up should not be used as a tank.

 

[psVoltage]

Don't Use

Mismagius @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot

Why its bad
I've seen this around a bit, and It confuses me a bit. Thunderbolt doesn't cover anything specific, or hit anything hard enough to make it worthwhile imo. The life orb on this set seems like a good idea yes, but in practice it really doesn't net you any more ko's. It also tacks on damage you don't need to be having as a spinblocker. Its overall weaker and wastes a moveslot.

Use this instead

Mismagius @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Destiny Bond

Why its better
This set was made by somebody that I do not remember at this time (If you see this please do tell me so that I can credit you for this awesome set) Its an amazing spinblocker for offensive teams because It can lure out and kill threats with destiny bond. The berry helps it pretty much get a free turn to setup on random knock off's that you with undoubtedly face. You can also use lum > Colbur if you do not have trouble against darks or if the recent spititomb rise affects the use of darks. Overall a better way to use this pokemon for this role.

 

[smelliott]

Don't use this.

Pineco @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
- Pain Split
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin

Why is it bad?

It's an overused bad gimmick, 200% Taunt bait, any form of sweeper can literally setup in pinecos face especially if you're not smart enough to switch out, it has literally no offensive pressure, there's no way it can do anything but 1 damage to a level 100 pokemon, it's only purpose is to set up hazards yet still manages to be bad at doing so.

But what could outclass such majesty?

Instead use this!

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

But why is it better than pineco?

Does a much better job at setting up rocks than pineco because of it's good defensive typing and stats with eviolite, although it isn't complete taunt bait due to gyro ball being able to get off some damage, is a great defensive wall that provides good support to most teams, and works as an effective leech seed staller it also stops common physically offensive threats such as kangaskhan, feraligatr and zangoose dead in their tracks.

OR

Crustle @ Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Rock Blast
- X-Scissor/Earthquake

Why is it better than pineco?

An alternative replacement to pineco; unlike ferroseed, crustle is a dedicated hazards lead, although it is a dedicated hazards lead it isn't complete taunt bait due to having offensive some pressure with Rock Blast and X-Scissor, with access to Rock Blast it can break through subs and focus sash with multiple hits, with red card it stops setup sweepers like feraligatr and removes all their creamy, crispy and succulent boosts and sturdy still allows it to set up extra hazards or get off damage on whatever switches in.

 

[Punchshroom]

Do not use:

Leavanny @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor

So players see that juicy 103 Attack and immediately go for dual physical STABs, thinking they're pretty set. What they don't realize is that they could be doing much better. Leaf Blade may be a reliable spamming attack, until you realize that it doesn't OHKO what it needs to.

252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 288-340 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 225-264 (63.9 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sandslash: 168-200 (47.4 - 56.4%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The former two can OHKO Leavanny right through its Sash, while the latter can keep Sticky Web off the field until its teammate revenges Leavanny by spamming Rapid Spin, which also breaks Leavanny's Sash. While Leavanny could potentially gain the upper hand against them, why not simply OHKO them right of the bat? Leavanny certainly has the means to do so.

While X-Scissor lets Leavanny hit Uxie, slower variants of Uxie are stopped more effectively by Kricketune, while faster variants of Uxie can set up Reflect before Leavanny hits it, nullifying the advantage either way. I'll admit X-Scissor is good for Mesprit, but one of Leavanny's biggest advantages is that it can use Magic Coat to stop Ditto from setting down Sticky Web against you, which none of the other spinners can do. However, if Leavanny uses X-Scissor, it becomes much riskier to simply click Magic Coat against Ditto, as it can easily bring Leavanny down to its Sash and the latter didn't even get to set its Web for the turn.


Use this instead:

Leavanny @ Focus Sash
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 104 Atk / 152 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat
- Leaf Storm
- Steel Wing

152 SpA Leavanny Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 948-1120 (228.9 - 270.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
152 SpA Leavanny Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 614-726 (173.4 - 205%) -- guaranteed OHKO

152 SpA Leavanny Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 338-402 (101.8 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Samurott: 288-338 (86.7 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Almost every would-be target of Leaf Blade is hit harder by Leaf Storm, either due to the target's superior Defense (ex: Qwilfish, Crustle, Steelix, Avalugg), and the fact that Leaf Storm with said investment is marginally stronger than max invested Leaf Blade against a target of equal defenses. Leaf Storm is by no means as spammable as Leaf Blade, but when Leavanny's use can be determined in the first few turns of battle itself, it's best to make its (potentially/usually) single attack count.

104 Atk Leavanny Steel Wing vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal: 282-332 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
104 Atk Leavanny Steel Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leavanny: 69-82 (23.7 - 28.1%) -- 92% chance to 4HKO

Now I know Steel Wing is odd as fuck, but it is really Leavanny's best attack against Cryogonal without exposing itself to Ditto. If the Cryogonal is bulkier than that, you can expect it to be slower.

And just like that, Leavanny can easily wipe out the 3 most common spinners in the tier (Cryo, Sandslash, and Kabutops), straight up OHKOes common SR users without the need to Taunt, and keeps Ditto at bay. SUCK IT, Kricketune.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Do not use:

Chatot @ Focus Sash (most popular item) or assault vest (used about 2% of time and have run into this)
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA/ 252 Speed
Naive Nature
Boomburst
Chatter
Nasty Plot/ Heat Wave
U-turn

At least people know that chatot is frail, so we should just alleviate the problem by either having a focus sash to guarantee to live a hit, or have an assault vest to boost our defenses. Also, go with a naive nature so that u-turn damage will not be weakened. However, chatot will most of the time have a difficult time trying to break through common pokes that set up hazards like uxie and crustle, so it either forces itself in or requires a good amount of team support to ensure the focus sash in intact. Nasty Plot looks like a great move to have for chatot, especially because it has the focus sash to live a hit, but it is also easily revenged killed by priority and scarfers (or generally faster pokes like typhlosion, pyroar, acrheops, electivire etc), so it really cannot use nasty plot in this case effectively. And no, don't use assault vest chatot. Besides it not being a good option thanks to its piss poor 42 special defense, it visually would not really work. U-turn is also not really needed on chatot anyways, as either chatot would prefer to get a hit off with its stronger attacks for slower target, or hard switch out with faster threats. U-turn won't be doing much against slower targets anyways.

Try this instead:

Chatot @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 SpA/ 4 SpD/ 252 Speed
Timid Nature
Boomburst
Chatter
Substitute
Encore

This set really maximizes Chatot's strengths without a lot of team support to make it effective. A fast encore can allow chatot to lock an opponent in a non attacking moves, which will force the target out. This gives you the freedom to substitute, which effectively gives you more bulk as you are guaranteed to live at least one more hit. Substitute also protects you from priority that would either kill or greatly dent chatot. The catch here, besides not being prone to status, is that with leftovers, you could force multiple pokes out throughout a match, so you can effectively substitute, set up and use chatot more than once in a match. Encore is also handy as a last ditch effort to lock an opponent in an undesireable attack to free another one of your pokes for a sweep. You could also use nasty plot or heat wave instead of encore, but it's utility is really appreciated by chatot, who has a hard time setting up a sub otherwise.

 

[termi]

Do not use:

Leavanny @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor

So players see that juicy 103 Attack and immediately go for dual physical STABs, thinking they're pretty set. What they don't realize is that they could be doing much better. Leaf Blade may be a reliable spamming attack, until you realize that it doesn't OHKO what it needs to.

The former two can OHKO Leavanny right through its Sash, while the latter can keep Sticky Web off the field until its teammate revenges Leavanny by spamming Rapid Spin, which also breaks Leavanny's Sash. While Leavanny could potentially gain the upper hand against them, why not simply OHKO them right of the bat? Leavanny certainly has the means to do so.

While X-Scissor lets Leavanny hit Uxie, slower variants of Uxie are stopped more effectively by Kricketune, while faster variants of Uxie can set up Reflect before Leavanny hits it, nullifying the advantage either way. I'll admit X-Scissor is good for Mesprit, but one of Leavanny's biggest advantages is that it can use Magic Coat to stop Ditto from setting down Sticky Web against you, which none of the other spinners can do. However, if Leavanny uses X-Scissor, it becomes much riskier to simply click Magic Coat against Ditto, as it can easily bring Leavanny down to its Sash and the latter didn't even get to set its Web for the turn.


Use this instead:

Leavanny @ Focus Sash
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 104 Atk / 152 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat
- Leaf Storm
- Steel Wing


Almost every would-be target of Leaf Blade is hit harder by Leaf Storm, either due to the target's superior Defense (ex: Qwilfish, Crustle, Steelix, Avalugg), and the fact that Leaf Storm with said investment is marginally stronger than max invested Leaf Blade against a target of equal defenses. Leaf Storm is by no means as spammable as Leaf Blade, but when Leavanny's use can be determined in the first few turns of battle itself, it's best to make its (potentially/usually) single attack count.


Now I know Steel Wing is odd as fuck, but it is really Leavanny's best attack against Cryogonal without exposing itself to Ditto. If the Cryogonal is bulkier than that, you can expect it to be slower.

And just like that, Leavanny can easily wipe out the 3 most common spinners in the tier (Cryo, Sandslash, and Kabutops), straight up OHKOes common SR users without the need to Taunt, and keeps Ditto at bay. SUCK IT, Kricketune.

Maybe slash shadow claw after steel wing, for otherwise xatu easily takes care of it. Hell, I would slash it before steel wing, really

 

[psVoltage]

Do not use:

Leavanny @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor

So players see that juicy 103 Attack and immediately go for dual physical STABs, thinking they're pretty set. What they don't realize is that they could be doing much better. Leaf Blade may be a reliable spamming attack, until you realize that it doesn't OHKO what it needs to.

The former two can OHKO Leavanny right through its Sash, while the latter can keep Sticky Web off the field until its teammate revenges Leavanny by spamming Rapid Spin, which also breaks Leavanny's Sash. While Leavanny could potentially gain the upper hand against them, why not simply OHKO them right of the bat? Leavanny certainly has the means to do so.

While X-Scissor lets Leavanny hit Uxie, slower variants of Uxie are stopped more effectively by Kricketune, while faster variants of Uxie can set up Reflect before Leavanny hits it, nullifying the advantage either way. I'll admit X-Scissor is good for Mesprit, but one of Leavanny's biggest advantages is that it can use Magic Coat to stop Ditto from setting down Sticky Web against you, which none of the other spinners can do. However, if Leavanny uses X-Scissor, it becomes much riskier to simply click Magic Coat against Ditto, as it can easily bring Leavanny down to its Sash and the latter didn't even get to set its Web for the turn.


Use this instead:

Leavanny @ Focus Sash
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 104 Atk / 152 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat
- Leaf Storm
- Steel Wing


Almost every would-be target of Leaf Blade is hit harder by Leaf Storm, either due to the target's superior Defense (ex: Qwilfish, Crustle, Steelix, Avalugg), and the fact that Leaf Storm with said investment is marginally stronger than max invested Leaf Blade against a target of equal defenses. Leaf Storm is by no means as spammable as Leaf Blade, but when Leavanny's use can be determined in the first few turns of battle itself, it's best to make its (potentially/usually) single attack count.


Now I know Steel Wing is odd as fuck, but it is really Leavanny's best attack against Cryogonal without exposing itself to Ditto. If the Cryogonal is bulkier than that, you can expect it to be slower.

And just like that, Leavanny can easily wipe out the 3 most common spinners in the tier (Cryo, Sandslash, and Kabutops), straight up OHKOes common SR users without the need to Taunt, and keeps Ditto at bay. SUCK IT, Kricketune.

Robert Alfons is right in my opinion, the greater immediate threat to leavany is xatu and it can net a nice 2hko on the switch.
104 Atk Leavanny Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xatu: 154-182 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO