Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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So, RichieTheGarchomp, just because the Mega Cleaners "die to priority" they shouldn't be A-? Anything on offence that is weak to at least 1 form of priority/is too frail to take it shouldn't be A- rank? By that logic, we should move down Pokemon like Greninja and Mega Heracross, who are weak to common priority or are far too frail to take moves like that, and even you should know that's just utter bullshit.
 
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Landorus_XY.gif
-> A+
Tbh this is long overdue. Landorus I is simply not even as close to as good as it was a few months ago. It is really prepared for on every team, with things like sp.def gliscor and tornadus therian roaming around. It is good vs offence, but not great, being quite comfortably revenge killed by a plethora of threats. The main problem I think, is how good landorus T is right now, and you can not use both mons. Landorus therian is such a good pivot with an amazing scarf set and defensive set, the utility, speed and power it provides is insane, and I simply do not think Lando i is better in this current meta stage. Overall Lando i is still good, but because Lando t is so very good right now, it really suffers competition for a team slot.
supporting this

lando -> A+

lando doesn't fit the S-rank description anymore. it's outclassed as a stealth rocker, outclassed as a sweeper/cleaner/whatever, and now it's just not that good of a wallbreaker anymore. stall and balanced teams have answers these days. spdef gliscor, mew, celebi, and cresselia are all growing in popularity. revenge killing it is super easy. and while the wall breaking megas have their own setbacks, none of them are big enough to separate them an entire rank. all of the S-rank pokemon are better than it and even a couple of things in A+ are too, so that's where he should be
 
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smfh u guys rly want lando to drop? well its one of THE defining forces of the meta. it has a great typing, good bulk for a offensive mon, and is a phenomenal wall breaker. sure, some things may be able to wall earth power/psy/focus, but that last slot is what makes it so threatening. SR? you can't defog on it w/ skarm, and its risky to attempt to spin on it w/ starmie. uturn? lures out a counter and can switch into scarftar/a deadly setup sweeper which sets up on those mons. HP ice? now ur gliscor can't beat it(HP ice is actually viable since 2 of its counters are 4x weak to it)rock polish? now ur offense team is gonna be turned into a steaming pile of shit. cm? lol now ur only hope of stopping it is cresselia. knock off? now ur switchin is crippled w/o its item. its the fact that the last slot is such a wildcard makes it such a threat in my eyes. keep lando s
 
smfh u guys rly want lando to drop? well its one of THE defining forces of the meta. it has a great typing, good bulk for a offensive mon, and is a phenomenal wall breaker. sure, some things may be able to wall earth power/psy/focus, but that last slot is what makes it so threatening. SR? you can't defog on it w/ skarm, and its risky to attempt to spin on it w/ starmie. uturn? lures out a counter and can switch into scarftar/a deadly setup sweeper which sets up on those mons. HP ice? now ur gliscor can't beat it(HP ice is actually viable since 2 of its counters are 4x weak to it)rock polish? now ur offense team is gonna be turned into a steaming pile of shit. cm? lol now ur only hope of stopping it is cresselia. knock off? now ur switchin is crippled w/o its item. its the fact that the last slot is such a wildcard makes it such a threat in my eyes. keep lando s

You're really overestimating its versatility. It's easy to revenge without Rock Polish and even then AV Azumarill just comes in and revenges it with a little prior damage. Knock Off doesn't instantly OHKO Chansey/Latias/Celebi either. HP Ice as coverage is bad outside those 2 mons. I also don't see how the only stop to CM is Cress and again easy to revenge. U-turn is 1 thing but you wear yourself down even faster, and Knock Off accomplishes the same thing. Rocks are ok on it, and how is Starmie risky against it when it can just kill it? Landorus for A+
 
You're really overestimating its versatility. It's easy to revenge without Rock Polish and even then AV Azumarill just comes in and revenges it with a little prior damage. Knock Off doesn't instantly OHKO Chansey/Latias/Celebi either. HP Ice as coverage is bad outside those 2 mons. I also don't see how the only stop to CM is Cress and again easy to revenge. U-turn is 1 thing but you wear yourself down even faster, and Knock Off accomplishes the same thing. Rocks are ok on it, and how is Starmie risky against it when it can just kill it? Landorus for A+
dedicated spinner starmie doesnt ohko(for reference reflect type recover spin scald)
0 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 206-246 (64.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and earth power proceeds to do a fuckton and u can predict the RT(prediction goes both ways so i won't delve further)
and knock off cripples them, forcing them to use a turn to recover, and you can easily take advantage of that by switching in scarf tar. and i don't see how HP ice is bad if u beat 2 of ur normal counters. and theres this thing called removing/weakening ur checks and counters before you sweep, and AV azu is quite literally the only stop to that thing on offense. CM is a great stall breaker, with its only defensive stop being cress. i honestly don't see how its A+, its too threatening to be anything less than s.
 
dedicated spinner starmie doesnt ohko(for reference reflect type recover spin scald)
0 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 206-246 (64.5 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and earth power proceeds to do a fuckton and u can predict the RT(prediction goes both ways so i won't delve further)
and knock off cripples them, forcing them to use a turn to recover, and you can easily take advantage of that by switching in scarf tar. and i don't see how HP ice is bad if u beat 2 of ur normal counters. and theres this thing called removing/weakening ur checks and counters before you sweep, and AV azu is quite literally the only stop to that thing on offense. CM is a great stall breaker, with its only defensive stop being cress. i honestly don't see how its A+, its too threatening to be anything less than s.

Offensive Starmie easily OHKOs I never said RT

Anything with weakened or removed counters can sweep so that's not really fair to say. In BW Keldeo/Landorus/ScarfTar had a very easy time removing Latias and Latios so Landorus and Keldeo can sweep, which is why Landorus was suspected, because of how easy it was to remove those counters. If I had to use a Raichu to remove all of its counters then it wouldn't be relevant. The only difference is that Landorus has many new checks (Azumarill is the most important) thatstop it frim being as good as you say. It's A+ and not S. It's still very good, just not Thundurus good.
 
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I'm inclined to agree to drop Lando to A+. By no means is he bad, but the meta has really adapted to his presence lately in the form of becoming a lot more offensive. Lando excels against stall, but he honestly struggles against offense if it's not the Rock Polish set (which is like his best set rn imo). He sits at an awkward speed tier that does outpace all the base 100s, but still loses to pretty much anything faster if they come in on the right moves. And with the meta being so fast and so offensive right now, Lando has a hard time keeping up. He's extremely hard to switch into. I'll give you that. But he often finds himself in against things that are faster, and pretty much all of them can beat him.

He's still a major threat to stall and balance, but with the meta so offensive right now, he simply isn't the S rank threat he used to be. A+ fits him perfectly.

Also Smog Frog removing checks and counters to page way for a sweep applies to all sweepers/cleaners lol
 
I really think that the only reason more counters exist for Lando-I these days is because it's such a powerhouse threat that people had to get creative and find new solutions to dealing with it. Granted its counters deal with other threats too but a large motivation behind the likes of specially defensive Gliscor is that Lando-I wrecked so much without it. Just because it's used less thanks to the rise of Lando-T as competition for a slot doesn't mean it's any less viable than it was. It destroys plenty of threats, and 101 speed really isn't as bad as some people are saying, especially when you consider the bulky offensive meta. Yes it can't deal with everything perfectly but the point is you can slap Lando-I on a team and it's always going to do work. Answers to Lando-I are still few and can be easily covered, leaving it to either punch holes, or sweep late game. Plus the competing stall breakers are all megas that take up the mega slot, which Lando-I does not, whilst performing just as well. Keep Lando-I S.
 
I really think that the only reason more counters exist for Lando-I these days is because it's such a powerhouse threat that people had to get creative and find new solutions to dealing with it. Granted its counters deal with other threats too but a large motivation behind the likes of specially defensive Gliscor is that Lando-I wrecked so much without it. Just because it's used less thanks to the rise of Lando-T as competition for a slot doesn't mean it's any less viable than it was. It destroys plenty of threats, and, 101 speed really isn't as bad as some people are saying, especially when you consider the bulky meta. Yes it can't deal with everything perfectly but the point is you can slap Lando-I on a team and it's always going to do work. Answers to Lando-I are still few and can be easily covered, leaving it to either punch holes, or sweep late game. Plus the competing stall breakers are all megas that take up the mega slot, which Lando-I does not, whilst performing just as well. Keep Lando-I S.

If a Pokemon creates metagame shifts like that then it's just natural that it gets worse (see Ferrothorn)

Azumarill is the most relevant check to it, and that same TTar Landorus Keldeo core just gets destroyed by it, so its most relevant check is very hard to deal with, this and its still easy to revenge. Once again by Azumarill, CB Talonflame with a but of prior damage, SpDef Mega Scizor can live a hit and 2HKO, Mamoswine checks it. Point is, the metagame adapted around it and its just not as good as it was, it deserves to drop to A+
 
If a Pokemon creates metagame shifts like that then it's just natural that it gets worse (see Ferrothorn)

Azumarill is the most relevant check to it, and that same TTar Landorus Keldeo core just gets destroyed by it, so its most relevant check is very hard to deal with, this and its still easy to revenge. Once again by Azumarill, CB Talonflame with a but of prior damage, SpDef Mega Scizor can live a hit and 2HKO, Mamoswine checks it. Point is, the metagame adapted around it and its just not as good as it was, it deserves to drop to A+

Couldn't that logic also apply to Keldeo then, who sits at S even though most teams usually carry one mon that resists both its STABS? If anything I see the increased usage of mons to counter S ranks a testament to why they're there; because they're so damn dangerous. With the way competitive players identify and respond to key threats, I can't imagine any mon remaining S for long with this line of reasoning.
 
Couldn't that logic also apply to Keldeo then, who sits at S even though most teams usually carry one mon that resists both its STABS? If anything I see the increased usage of mons to counter S ranks a testament to why they're there; because they're so damn dangerous. With the way competitive players identify and respond to key threats, I can't imagine any mon remaining S for long with this line of reasoning.

Keldeo doesn't deserve S either, people caught on that it's not as good as the other S rank Pokemon and hopefully it drops. If the metagame shifts don't benefit them then this should be updated to reflect that
 
Keldeo doesn't deserve S either, people caught on that it's not as good as the other S rank Pokemon and hopefully it drops. If the metagame shifts don't benefit them then this should be updated to reflect that

I respect your reasoning and I understand your thoughts on the matter, but I'm just saying by that logic won't everything drop from S eventually? For example, as the metagame has adapted to Charizard-X, there's increasing demand for that to drop to A+ even though it's as threatening as ever. To me Lando-I and Keldeo fit the S rank definition despite counters existing for them. Otherwise it sounds like S rank will eventually return to being the 'broken rank.'
 
Agreeing with Landorus dropping to A+. Landorus is still a good Pokemon but just not as good as it used to be. There isn't as much stall going on now which is annoying since Landorus works best against stall. The metagame is becoming more offensive and while he isn't bad versus offense he isn't too great either. Common offensive Pokemon like Latios and Keldeo can outspeed and kill it while other Pokemon like Azumarill can take it out with priority. Also Landorus seems to struggle more with stall teams nowadays. With new sets being used like Spdef Gliscor Landorus now finds itself walled on stall teams meaning it can't break through them as effectively anymore. Still a good Pokemon but not as good as it once was.

I think Mega Alakazam also deserves to go up to A-. Great revenge killer thanks to it's speed which allows it to outspeed other fast stuff. Also works well against stall with stuff like Encore and Taunt. Trace is really useful in quite a few situations and all around just a good and underrated Pokemon.

Regular Alakazam also deserves a bump. Deoxys Speed no longer outclasses it as a revenge killer, Aegislash being gone means it loses one of it's main counters and Mega Mawile gone helps too. Not the greatest Pokemon but quite a decent revenge killer with Magic Guard.

Other nominations I agree with but can't say much about:
Mega Aerodactyl to A-
Mienshou to C-/C
Cresselia to B-
 
My two cents on the Lando-I to A+ discussion, impact on the meta and counters rising due to impact does not mean increased viability, it actually means less. This was covered in the Mega Venu discussion to some degree, the meta is well prepared for Mega Venu, therefore it is less viable, not more imo.
 
I agree with skarmory and chansey dropping, they are too much "set up fodders", today's metagame isn't by any means kind to them, especially skarmory, we have seen a rise in usage from magnezone after aegi's ban.
I think Slowbro as A is a bit too much though, he just as skarmory and chansey isn't that threatening, and while he's a great help in stopping things like excadrill and keldeo it's not very easy to fit in a team.

Manaphy cannot break stall without external help by a knock off user or don't know something like gothitelle in order to kill chansey, and it's too slow to do something against offensive teams, especially if we consider
thundurus who can easily kill him, but it's not only that, latios is for example another problem for it especially if manaphy lacks psychic, together with venusaur if lacking psychic, ferrothorn if lacking hp fire (umm wait what)
assault vest azumarill is also an acceptable check for it, while keldeo can 2hko him with secret sword, while he can resist a +0 psychic
Of course they are cute sets like cm+rain dance+rest, but that only gives you scald as an offensive option, and this kind of manaphy is even slower than the "common" one.
Long Story SHort: too slow against offense, has trouble breaking stall, 4MSS
And yes, I also vouch for Mega Dactyl, and Megazam, especially Aerodactyl, i'm sold on this thing after watching some Frontier's replay, a great "bird" check, coupled with recovery, taunt, sky high speed? Yes pelase!
The only downside is the fact that he takes a mega slot, but oh well.
mAlakazam has been already discussed but yeah, modest is the way to go, you still surpass stuff like Greninja without problems and get more power from timid orb alakazam.
And really, trace MIGHT be situational, depending on the occasion, but here we have Keldeo an S ranked pokemon with an useless ability, ability does not make up the entire pokemon, and stillt race can still be useful against stuff like
magic guard clefable, poison heal gliscor, flash fire heatran, sand rush exca, intimidate landorus-t, sheer force landorus-i prankster thundurus (if you have substitute, that is) protean greninja (fairy type alakazam? Yes please) multiscale dragonite and so on.
About crawdaunt:
These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
Yeah, crawdaunt has flaws, but can still be mitigated with proper team support ex: trick room support and it's a force to be reckoned with b- for me.
Eh, I dunno about Hydreigon, haven't used him much so I'll leave it at that.
Cresselia is also b- rank material imo, while she's a great wall, she's not limited only to that, access to trick room, great bulk, and lunar dance, a better version of healing wish mind you, makes her a great trick room candidate, if not one of the best.
As for thundurus, it's uuh, quite a "mega slot" case, I mean, if you use thundurus-therian, you can't use thundurus-incarnate, you know.
lower speed also doesn't help him that much, you might say that being immune to electric type attacks is kind of a great deal, but as far as I'm concerned they are only three "serious" electric 'mon in the tier:
Rotom-wash, Thundurus-Incarnate and Mega Manectric, you can't stop manectric, thundurus might get the best out of you with knock off/hp ice, and hydro pump really hurts you, so yeah, a bad niche, perhaps he might be useful against zapdos, but eeh.
I'll make a case for Jellicent, though, for D rank (c- is kinda suicide, you see)
While it's true that jellicent is setup fodder for quite a big deal of stuff so is stuff like mantine, tentacruel and blissey

What jellicent brings to the table? The same stuff Mantine does without being SR Weak, and I guess resist some weak volt switch from rotom-wash, combined with wow which got a major accuracy boost from bw, taunt along with immunity to scald makes him an okay stall breaker.
Of course, that does not mean that jellicent is capable to walk on stall teams, stuff like venusaur, charizard x and amoonguss can give him trouble, but it's still something to consider when we rank him, pdef jellicent, the old standard from bw can also win the 1 on one against excadrill, or to be more precise
he has an 85% chance to win the "battle" which means that jellicent can come in on excadrill's rapid spin, rock slide or iron ehad and scare him off with wow, even with stealth rocks and sandstorm on the field, he also has some chances against starmie, which gained a bit of usage after the aegislash ban, all in all, I believe that Jellicent fully deserves D Rank
 
Could we just make an S+ rank for Azu and Thundy already?
I never would have backed this before, but I've been mulling this over for a bit of time and it actually makes a lot of sense at this point.

Problem #1: Azumarill and Thundurus are on a whole other level than the other S Ranks. Azumarill is the best Pokemon in the tier, Thundurus is pretty damn close to it. Leads to the second problem.

Problem #2: It seems weird to rank the likes of Keldeo, Landorus, and Mega Charizard X with them, despite them being pretty damn powerful metagame-defining forces.

Solution #1: Drop Keldeo, Landorus, and Mega Charizard X to A+ Rank, despite being on the whole better than the rest of the rank.

Solution #2: Keep Keldeo, Landorus, and Mega Charizard X in S Rank, despite not being as good as Azumarill and Thundurus.

Solution #3: Create an S+ Rank above S Rank for Azumarill and Thundurus, and keep Keldeo, Landorus, and Mega Charizard X in S Rank.

At this point, I think it's a good idea to create an S+ Rank to display the disparity in viability between the 5 S Ranks, and perhaps even give some Pokemon room to move up into S Rank (minor, mostly irrelevant point).
 
Lowering Keldeo, Landorus, and Xzard to an S- rank would make more sense than raising Azumarill and Thundurus to S+, so there aren't any random gaps in the rankings like what having an S+ and S without S- would cause.

EDIT: RotomPoison The ranks are all relative to each other anyway so I don't see why we'd put Azumarill and Thundurus in S+ and make an empty S- for any reason other than for liking the sound of S+ more.

I think this is sort of dumb to clutter up the thread with since it doesn't really matter so I won't post about it more, it'd just look weird to me.
 
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Lowering Keldeo, Landorus, and Xzard to an S- rank would make more sense than raising Azumarill and Thundurus to S+, so there aren't any random gaps in the rankings like what having an S+ and S without S- would cause.

No, if that was true we could just make an S- rank. I completely agree with Jukains idea about S+ since Azumarill and Thundurus are the best Pokemon in the tier
 
I think an S+ ranking would be a great idea, as I feel like there is a weird gap between S and A+ that needs to be filled, and it would just be quicker to add a ranking so that we can stop having these fruitless disputes about X-Zard, Keldeo and Lando-I.
 
My post was more-or-less of a joke, but honestly, it probably would be a good idea to split S rank into two. I don't think anyone seriously believes that Azumarill and Thundurus are on the same level as Keldeo and freinds in terms of general viability. And at the same time, we all know that Keldeo, were he to drop to A+, would be the best Pokemon in the rank. If that were to happen, people would just push Keldeo back and forth between A+ and S, because it's too good for A+ but not good enough for S. In that case, I see no downside to splitting S rank in two if we want to be accurate in our rankings, and besides, Azu+Thundy>Keldeo+Lando+XZard>A+ is something I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on, so we would barely need to debate what we put in each rank unless we wanted to move stuff from A+ to S- which can just be done in due time (looking at Latis, Greninja, and MPinsir in particular, though I'll probably detail these in further posts if the split actually happens). Plus, it would be a great compromise and make, for the most part, both pro- and anti- Keld/Lando/Zard drop people satisfied with the rankings.
 
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Could we just make an S+ rank for Azu and Thundy already?

I agree with this idea. I'm just nitpicking here but I think a S- -Rank would make more sense than a S+ -Rank.
We are discussing if CharX, Keldeo and Landorus should drop to A+ or staying in S. So there should be a rank BETWEEN S and A+ for these Pokemon, since they are too good for A+ and too questionable for S. S- seems like a good idea imo.

It doesn't make a great difference, but it just sounds better than S+.
 
splitting S rank into two ranks would just complicate things imo, I mean I personally dont think keldeo is S rank, but because there arent that many pokes in S rank as it is, I dont mind him chilling there. There would need to be more than 3-4 mons to justify starting a whole new rank, I mean like I said S rank is already small enough as it is.
 
splitting S rank into two ranks would just complicate things imo, I mean I personally dont think keldeo is S rank, but because there arent that many pokes in S rank as it is, I dont mind him chilling there. There would need to be more than 3-4 mons to justify starting a whole new rank, I mean like I said S rank is already small enough as it is.

Size isn't important, it needs to accurately show Thundurus and Azumarill are the best Pokemon in the tier
 
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