Maybe it can run a Gengar - esque SubWisp set. The tradeoff is more bulk and Special Attack in exchange for much worse Speed. And it can run a wallbreaking Specs set, as being able to 2HKO Chansey with Psyshock is not something most special attackers can claim. Specs is probably Hoopa's only salvageable aspect, as it has insane power and access to Trick to cripple Chansey, Skarm, or Ferrothorn. And with Ghost + Fighting coverage, not many Ghosts and Darks can switch in on him.
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Pokémon Hoopa
- Thread starter Delibird is Amazing
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dont cry
Even if it may not be good in OU, it may still be D rank or something, so it can be discussed upon. Also, we still don't know. We don't have a hoopa to use, so we can't really say it's viable or not. And clawitzer is just shit outside of it's own tier. [With exceptions]
Oh man and the hoopafags come out of the wordwork. Clawitzer is actually more versatile with pseudo-STAB on dark pulse and aura sphere and doesn't have crippling 4x weaknesses to 2 of the most prominent OU attacking types. Give me a break, this thing is garbage. Hoops would need a shitload of support to be even close to viable, and even with screens and sticky web she would still get shat on by a dp just like 252hp/252spdef gyara does to thunderbolt. No niches, no speshul roles, right into the trash in goes
You may be right that it has the potential to be bad, yet one's thing for sure, we can't use it, so we don't fully know yet. Until we are able to get an official copy of hoopa, everything in this thread (which the OP states is approved by haunter) is really speculation. So it may be complete shit, or it may be the next clefable. We really don't know, so everything in this thread needs to be taken with a grain of salt, as right now, it's just people's ideas, and speculations. It'll probably be like Diancie, in OU for a week or two, have the thread open, but then we use it, and we then learn how shit it is.
Eh, I always make a point to never rely solely on speculation anyway (remember at the beginning of this gen when we thought Mega Mawile only had "a chance" at being OU?). Hoopa to me is looking like a worse Chandelure with only STAB psyshock to differentiate itself from it, but for all I know that could be all it needs. I remember back in gen V when some people were saying that Sheer Force Landorus was redundant and Sand Force was the better ability, I'm prepared to see similar things happen here.
We are banking too hard on the surprise factor of hoopa. Sheer force landorus was a wake up call ill give you that.
But unless hoops gets a lot of love from the tutors his bests set are most likely going to be a sub berry or a trick set wich will require a lot of prediction, ill give you that stab SB coming from a 130+ spa is really spamable, but i find hoops to be a momentum killer on most situations gor its team. Point and case unless you treaten someone imediatly with a speedcreeped 70 base speed he wont be helping his team much.
I can say that I used Sheer Force Lando in DW tier before it was released and it was great although the opponent calls me out for being a noob.
Also, Hoopa has 150 Sp Atk, 70 Speed which is like Aegislash. The only difference is the typing and physical bulk.
Hoopafags made me lol.
No, yeah. Hoopa is garbage. It might be dangerous in some lower tier and maybe even might end up in a lower tier BL. Shit in OU without much doubt. No one with any degree of ability to play this game will claim otherwise. People might find some niche set that in absolutely perfect conditions might do some damage, but overall will just be dead weight compared to something else.
However this thread is to discuss the viability of Hoopa in OU, which is exactly what people are doing. Nothing is wrong with being... overly optimistic.
People will always try to find good uses. I could see a Lum Berry set make for a decent status absorber which can then abuse Magician for example.
The best pokemon to compare this to is Gengar I think. Both have great special attack and an exhaustive support movepool.
Gengar 60/65/60/130/75/110
Resist: x0 Normal, x.5 Grass, x0 Fighting, x.25 Poison, x.5 Bug, x.5 Fairy, x0 Ground (Ability)
Weakness: Psychic, Ghost, Dark
Hoopa 80/110/60/150/130/70
Resist: x0 Normal, x0 Fighting, x.5 Poison, x.5 Psychic, x4 Ghost, x4 Dark
We often forget how frail Gengar is at times because it is consistently one of the best and commonly seen OU pokemon, but as we can see, Gengar has to abuse those immunities and a few good special resists if it wants to switch into anything. And added ground immunity and Gengars fantastic speed are its biggest assets allowing it to really abuse that movepool of its.
Statwise of course, Hoopa is a monster in comparison, having effectively double the SpD when you factor in the extra 20 in HP as well as the option to invest in those stats. And those attack stats are nothing to sneeze at.
Gengar Timid 252 SpA / 252 Spd
262/149/156/359/186/350
Hoopa Modest 252 HP / 252 SpD
364/230/156/370/359/176
With a Modest nature and 0 investment you will still have a higher SpA stat than Gengar, albeit by 10/11 points. Meanwhile you get a spectacular SpD total roughly doubly effective.
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 151-178 (57.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hoopa: 78-93 (21.4 - 25.5%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO
Gengar dies to Pursuit and Knock Off in single hits as is, no different than Hoopa. But Hoopa's ability to take neutral hits is in a different league. Naturally though, Gengar's speed is so fantastic that it can often 2HKO without getting touched in return, but it does have a smaller margin for error. Hoopa is a pretty good check to the Lati twins. The SpD spread can't be 2HKO, even by Psyshock, and STAB Shadow Ball has over 60% chance to OHKO Latios after rocks.
Now don't think I'm saying Hoopa is surefire OU. I'm just trying to think outside the box and show Hoopa in a different context, possibly try to spark some ingenuity and creative thinking. Hoopa has a pretty good framework to be usable, but it really is its speed that is the nail in the coffin more than anything else. Its 4x weaknesses are rendered moot as with its defense stat it would still die horribly if it were only 2x weak.
The best pokemon to compare this to is Gengar I think. Both have great special attack and an exhaustive support movepool.
Gengar 60/65/60/130/75/110
Resist: x0 Normal, x.5 Grass, x0 Fighting, x.25 Poison, x.5 Bug, x.5 Fairy, x0 Ground (Ability)
Weakness: Psychic, Ghost, Dark
Hoopa 80/110/60/150/130/70
Resist: x0 Normal, x0 Fighting, x.5 Poison, x.5 Psychic, x4 Ghost, x4 Dark
We often forget how frail Gengar is at times because it is consistently one of the best and commonly seen OU pokemon, but as we can see, Gengar has to abuse those immunities and a few good special resists if it wants to switch into anything. And added ground immunity and Gengars fantastic speed are its biggest assets allowing it to really abuse that movepool of its.
Statwise of course, Hoopa is a monster in comparison, having effectively double the SpD when you factor in the extra 20 in HP as well as the option to invest in those stats. And those attack stats are nothing to sneeze at.
Gengar Timid 252 SpA / 252 Spd
262/149/156/359/186/350
Hoopa Modest 252 HP / 252 SpD
364/230/156/370/359/176
With a Modest nature and 0 investment you will still have a higher SpA stat than Gengar, albeit by 10/11 points. Meanwhile you get a spectacular SpD total roughly doubly effective.
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 151-178 (57.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hoopa: 78-93 (21.4 - 25.5%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO
Gengar dies to Pursuit and Knock Off in single hits as is, no different than Hoopa. But Hoopa's ability to take neutral hits is in a different league. Naturally though, Gengar's speed is so fantastic that it can often 2HKO without getting touched in return, but it does have a smaller margin for error. Hoopa is a pretty good check to the Lati twins. The SpD spread can't be 2HKO, even by Psyshock, and STAB Shadow Ball has over 60% chance to OHKO Latios after rocks.
Now don't think I'm saying Hoopa is surefire OU. I'm just trying to think outside the box and show Hoopa in a different context, possibly try to spark some ingenuity and creative thinking. Hoopa has a pretty good framework to be usable, but it really is its speed that is the nail in the coffin more than anything else. Its 4x weaknesses are rendered moot as with its defense stat it would still die horribly if it were only 2x weak.
I don't see Hoopa in OU. Most likely UU, possibly BL. But they didn't really give her a chance with some of those base stats and it's typing. A knock off could OHKO and a Bisharp with Pursuit, this is one of those pokemon you will need to spend a lot of time and effort for it to be able to battling.
And at the end of the day, we have Scolipede to pass over Speed Boosts to Hoopa.
see, and people say hoopa won't be viable just because of sucker punch, smh
and let all that sp.atk go to waste?
better go mixed with that gimmick
see, and people say hoopa won't be viable just because of sucker punch, smh
and let all that sp.atk go to waste?
better go mixed with that gimmick
I definitely think people are underselling Hoopa just because it has exploitable weaknesses. As long as you play well and account for a way to deal with common Pursuit users, this mon could definitely do some work. Choice Specs Shadow Ball off base 150 spatk is disgustingly spammable and paired with a slow U-turner I'm sure Hoopa could get in safely and then comfortably kill something. Psyshock also means Chansey doesn't ruin the fun. The special bulk is very good too, enough to comfortably take neutral hits. For that reason, I think AV could allow for it to be a decent special tank in exchange for wall breaking potential. Maybe not top of the tier, but it definitely has a valuable niche.
EDIT: Just did some theorizing with a 200 HP/248 SPATK/60 SPE Modest spread:
248+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 316-373 (49.2 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
248+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 222-262 (52.4 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
248+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 147-174 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's not too shabby at all. I can see it absolutely wrecking frailer things with power like that.
EDIT: Just did some theorizing with a 200 HP/248 SPATK/60 SPE Modest spread:
248+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 316-373 (49.2 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
248+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 222-262 (52.4 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
248+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 147-174 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's not too shabby at all. I can see it absolutely wrecking frailer things with power like that.
The point lies in the fact that unless you really wan to use hoopa for his design he is really lackluster. He has a smal niche in spamming shadiwballs and scaring chansey(blissey if he goes uu). But other than that he is way too hard to fit on a team. He requires way more support than what he can offer. I cant think of why i would run this guy ocer lets say landorus I or gardevoir wich can do similar stuff while fitting better into different teamsand have more versatility as special attackers who can treathen the pink blobs.
He isnt going to be OU material, he will be incredibly low in viability ranking. But if he truns on your team building kink coz he is a novelty with a fun design! Go ahead and use him.
Just remembers just like salamence almost everyone does what he is doing better....unless you are a moxie scarfer with hydropump or passing wishes with defog and intimidate dracometors.
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I'm not denying the likes of Lando-I are an easier fit to teams. I would however argue that Hoopa has some advantages in the form of an incredibly spammable STAB and impressive bulk on the special side. Plus, it's not getting revenged as easily by the likes of Ice Shard. I know we're only speculating and things don't look good for Hoopa, but I reckon when it comes out it's going to be one of those mons that's much better in practise than it looks, because nothing is switching in to it successfully once it's on the field (though admittedly that's gonna be hard to do).
I agree his main weakness is getting in.
I can see a scizor/magnezone core with him happening but again some other mons could take a better advantage out of it. This guy needs testing and some move tutor love if you ask me.
People assume he sucks just because of his cons.
Yeah, he might be x4 weak to Dark and Ghost, but those are his only weaknesses.
And the only priority with those types are Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch.
Only one Pokemon in OU uses Sucker Punch (Bisharp) and with Aegislash gone, nobody even uses Shadow Sneak.
He's also Immune to Normal and Fighting moves while resistant to Poison and Psychic.
Other than that, he's neutral to all the other types besides two.
Hoopa may have low defense, but he could probably tank a few special hits.
People are just assuming he'll be bad at first look, but I think he'll turn out alright.
I think Hoopa will just be an ok mon. Definitely not OU mon but can have niches when the coast is clear and all ghost and dark pokemon are gone.
He'll probably be ranked C or lower in the viability rankings depending on how he manages to stand out but his huge flaws will prevent him from being good in OU.
He'll probably be ranked C or lower in the viability rankings depending on how he manages to stand out but his huge flaws will prevent him from being good in OU.
I personally think that Hoopa is more comparable to Chandelure than Gengar. In fact, they both are Ghosts with an awakward base speed for OU and barely passable defenses (when taking them toghether ofc). While Chandelure has no 4x weaknesses,it has a painful weakness to Stealth Rocks, so they both require specific support to be effective. And while Chandelure has a greater STAB in fire, Hoopa may be lucky and get dome cool physical tutor moves on ORAS (superpower maybe?), being able to pull off mixed sets to catch walls/dark types off-guard.
And as Chandelure, it will only have a little niche, while still being almost totally outclassed by our favourite ghost-type Gengar lol
And as Chandelure, it will only have a little niche, while still being almost totally outclassed by our favourite ghost-type Gengar lol
Dear god this thing looks like a nightmare for stall to face. Something I immediately noticed is its access to Taunt, Thunder Wave, and Destiny Bond.
With Taunt, this thing can reliably hamper stall. Combined with the power this thing brings, and you've got yourself a seriously potent Stallbreaker. If you look further into Hoopa as a stall breaker, it actually becomes MORE fearsome. Let's not forget how devastating a base 150 SpA Modest STAB Shadow Ball can be. FINALLY we have a mon with the ability to abuse Magician. Stealing items from Stall mons is pretty damn cruel, especially if it's Eviolite. Add on to that set Trick, giving things an Eviolite in exchange for Leftovers.
Chansey just a TAD too bulky for you? BAM not anymore
252+ SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 319-376 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Also, stealing 6% of recovery per turn is nothing to scoff at.
As I mentioned earlier, Hoopa gets Thunder Wave. With it, it's capable of crippling members of the opposing team that want to switch in. Thunder Wave--in tandem with Destiny Bond--allows you to actually kill Hoopa's checks/counters. Nail em with the Thunder Wave, then D Bond. If it's Bisharp, then it dies to either Focus Blast or its own Sucker Punch.
While Hoopa MAY need support to function (Scratch that, Hoopa is pretty self-sufficient. It's probably just going to be another nuke like Victini.) I can ABSOLUTELY see it functioning to some degree in the OU metagame. Whether or not it gets OU usage is entirely beyond my capacity to speculate, but I wouldn't write this mon off just yet.
EDIT: I'd also like to add on that Magician stealing Life Orb from offensive stuff can SERIOUSLY change the things they're capable of killing.
Double EDIT: This thing actually looks pretty good FOR stall as a Stallbreaker that can check Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir (See Victini). After the battle with Smog Frog , I've noticed that this thing (should you choose to go No Item) can shut down both the VenuTran and the SkarmChans cores. By removing Heatran's Leftovers, it allows it to be worn down; Taunting Skarm kills it; Chansey and Venusaur are self explanatory.
With Taunt, this thing can reliably hamper stall. Combined with the power this thing brings, and you've got yourself a seriously potent Stallbreaker. If you look further into Hoopa as a stall breaker, it actually becomes MORE fearsome. Let's not forget how devastating a base 150 SpA Modest STAB Shadow Ball can be. FINALLY we have a mon with the ability to abuse Magician. Stealing items from Stall mons is pretty damn cruel, especially if it's Eviolite. Add on to that set Trick, giving things an Eviolite in exchange for Leftovers.
Chansey just a TAD too bulky for you? BAM not anymore
252+ SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 319-376 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Also, stealing 6% of recovery per turn is nothing to scoff at.
As I mentioned earlier, Hoopa gets Thunder Wave. With it, it's capable of crippling members of the opposing team that want to switch in. Thunder Wave--in tandem with Destiny Bond--allows you to actually kill Hoopa's checks/counters. Nail em with the Thunder Wave, then D Bond. If it's Bisharp, then it dies to either Focus Blast or its own Sucker Punch.
EDIT: I'd also like to add on that Magician stealing Life Orb from offensive stuff can SERIOUSLY change the things they're capable of killing.
Double EDIT: This thing actually looks pretty good FOR stall as a Stallbreaker that can check Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir (See Victini). After the battle with Smog Frog , I've noticed that this thing (should you choose to go No Item) can shut down both the VenuTran and the SkarmChans cores. By removing Heatran's Leftovers, it allows it to be worn down; Taunting Skarm kills it; Chansey and Venusaur are self explanatory.
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Hoopa is going to be an amazing wall breaker. It was hard to stomach Aegislash's LO Shadow Ball, but Hoopa has the exact same special attack and speed. Also sexy coverage.
gonna be on PS building a hoopa team(for customs, if u wanna fight me just pm me, i'll let you know when its done)
EDIT:
after a battle with ;lmlm taunt+thunder wave hoopa seems to be good at breaking stall. in particular, it can cripple, throw out an attack off of the ludicrous base 150, then cripple or attack again. the fighting immunity means that chansey can't stop it. but it seems that trick+no item+taunt seem to do the job better. will report more when i can get more battles(not rn tho, i don't feel like battling atm)
gonna be on PS building a hoopa team(for customs, if u wanna fight me just pm me, i'll let you know when its done)
EDIT:
after a battle with ;lmlm taunt+thunder wave hoopa seems to be good at breaking stall. in particular, it can cripple, throw out an attack off of the ludicrous base 150, then cripple or attack again. the fighting immunity means that chansey can't stop it. but it seems that trick+no item+taunt seem to do the job better. will report more when i can get more battles(not rn tho, i don't feel like battling atm)
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And yet, Gyarados is OU. And I would call being the only Psyshock user that can get past Chansey a niche.
On the other hand:
0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 302-359 (100.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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