Post is long. Have fun.
TL;DR
- A player's team didn't improve if they just stuck a Victini on it, and what should be the focus here is why Victini was being put there. Were there seriously no other options, or is it something regarding what Victini was to UU?
- I'm not claiming Victini never was or never could be that teammate you needed. Rather, it was the easy option, and most players took that choice only because it was easier, rather than it made sense to use Victini.
- UU ALL DAY makes a less than stellar argument and I pick it apart.
Mazz, are you suggesting that Victini suffers to some extent from "Genesect Syndrome" in which the Pokemon in question will always improve the team it's in, meaning every team without it is automatically worse than a similar-enough team with it? I remember in early BW2 it was said that Choice Scarf Genesect improved every team archetype, INCLUDING full stall. Having played some of every team in that meta, I can mostly agree with that sentiment. Not about Victini, of course, but I'm wondering what you think in that respect.
I don't agree that Victini falls into this category. I know I didn't explain it in my previous post, but in my edit I do point out that Victini wasn't a constant variable in the good/great team equation - such teams could, and did, exist without it. Genesect was a sickness in the OU metagame, and it was its own cure, right until banning it solved the overlying problem. A player's team didn't improve if they just stuck a Victini on it, and what should be the focus here is why Victini was being put there. Were there seriously no other options, or is it something regarding what Victini was to UU?
What I'm making is an observation that Victini was usually thrown on a team because it was easier to just arm yourself with a nuke than it was a highly thought out teammate that your team actually had a need for. In saying that, I'm not claiming Victini never was or never could be that teammate you needed. Rather, it was the
easy option, and most players took that choice only because it was easier, rather than it made sense to use Victini.
Personally, I do agree that Victini is a very "easy" pokemon to put on a team. The good stats all around, great movepool, diversity, and typing all lends itself for Victini to be an easy fit on most teams. However, that being said, I feel that the same can be said for a Pokemon such as Hydreigon or Nidoqueen.
Hydreigon was sentenced to BL for a short time period, mostly due to how effective of a wallbreaker it was. Even Kokoloko can be quoted on how difficult it was to switch into via his vote in the BL Retest Thread. However, there's a reason why both Nidoqueen and Hydreigon are currently UU. The biggest reason is that they have defined checks and counters (notice the plural words, hinting more than one). Victini had at best one or two counters depending on what day of the week it was (post-Slowbro) and only a small handful of checks. These checks however usually didn't check all sets. The mixed or special variants could dismantle them when the physical variants were stopped stone cold (or vice-versa).
Another reason, and while it may be more obscure, further enforces my point as Victini being a lazy decision. Pokemon like Hydreigon or Nidoqueen, especially the latter, are added with intent. There's a general idea in a player's head when these Pokemon are added to a team. They can perform blanket roles, such as wallbreakers, but they also perform a few specific roles, such as providing defensive synergy, providing hazards, or aiding a sweep.
Victini didn't have specific roles, it only had the one - wallbreaker (which should be changed to teambreaker in this case). It was typically a nuke, a cheap way to grab momentum when it was needed, and an easy way to bulldoze through an opposing team due to its lack of checks and counters.
The reason why Victini can possibly give teams problem is because of poor team building--they do not prepare for a certain set, be it Scarf + Trick, or CB, or Mixed, or LO Special. This does not make the team builder bad, but it makes the team unprepared to handle such a threat. The team that struggles with Mixed Tini (Thunder/V-Create/Energy Ball/U-Turn) will also struggle with NP + CC Infernape. With the combination of NP, CC, Fire Blast, and Grass Knot, Infernape can wreck a lot of common cores that MixTini also does, such as Fish + Florges, Fish + Blissey, or Swampert + Forry.
I've bolded a bit here where you contradict yourself with Somalia's argument, which you believe to be "spot on". Using the Somalia argument, this case is the team builder's fault. They shouldn't have been lazy and made sure all avenues had been crossed. Or, is this a case where due to the natural restrictions on team size (6 members) that being able to cover all threats posed by Victini with certain playstyles (say, offensive balance or HO) is tricky to borderline impossible without a specific Pokemon on the field at all times?
You're also missing a major point between Infernape and Victini. One needs set up to become threatening. Against any competent player, you're not going to get Infernape to +2 and fire off an attack before something such as Alomamola hits the field. It comes out when Infernape is getting a Nasty Plot up, and then proceeds to survive the boosted Grass Knot and retaliate back with Scald or Toxic.
The weakness to all entry hazards, dark and water typing does not make it easy for Victini to do well.
Lastly, Victini cannot beat stall teams. It can beat stall cores, such as Gligar + Blissey, but it will not beat a well made stall team. Victini will lose a lot of momentum with V-Create, and if it doesn't run LO with its special attacks, it is easily beaten by things that are not taking SE Damage. This is unlike Togekiss or Jirachi which can actually beat Stall teams with the combination of Toxic/TSpikes + Flinch.
A weakness to hazards does not make a Pokemon not broken. Where this argument comes from, I don't know, but whoever created it is in need of a bullet. If we were talking a quadruple weakness to Stealth Rocks, or if Spikes and Toxic Spikes were common (existent in the latter's case), then maybe I could take this argument seriously. Dying upon entering the field is an issue, yes. That isn't the issue though. Every time this argument is raised, it's almost expected that those hazards
have to be there for the rest of the match. If you're running [insert SR weak Pokemon here], there's no chance you have a way of dealing with them. Good players have ways around that weakness, and Victini doesn't really care about it anyways (unless you use it like a scout). If you're sitting there just clicking V-Create, you really don't care about what's dying or coming in to force you out. Something's getting hurt, which is all you're investing in Victini for.
Your last point is contradictory as well. Stall cores
make stall teams. If its not part of your defensive core, its an offensive or supporting element. If your stall core dies to Victini, then Victini has beaten your stall team. We (myself included) act like V-Create is its only move, when it has a myriad of options. Competent players can use those options and some rationality and work around a momentum loss. If you lead with Victini against a stall team, there's a huge amount of pressure upon that team not to lose an important member.
On an unrelated note, I don't like the line I've bolded either. Togekiss and Jirachi don't beat stall teams with those elements (I also seem to remember paralysis>toxic), but rather with luck. It baffles me to no end as to why you support one mindless playstyle
while advocating for the return of another. Out of curiosity, do you also advocate for Smeargle+Geomancy? If you don't, I'm exceedingly curious to hear
via VM or PM or on IRC as to why you don't.