I did a Doublade nomination a few pages back but Pleasure Kitten shot me down :[
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2
- Thread starter KM
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I did a Doublade nomination a few pages back but Pleasure Kitten shot me down :[
There are some problems with doublade, namely that it needs that turn to set up for one, and second, it falls to pretty much every special attacker in the tier.
252 Atk, 252 SpD, Careful/Sassy Nature, can survive non SE special attack though
Which ruins its viability against knock off. It needs that hp.
Nonetheless I believe it warrants a little more than C rank. Even Cacturne managed to get into B- rank with only a single niche in beating Bulky Waters. And it is generally able to take most special attacks that do not hit super-effectively, and its typing gives it quite a few helpful resistances to help it with that. In fact I generally use it to beat non-HP Fire Roserades. Surely all of its pros warrant it at least B rank.
Just like King UU said, the main problems with doublade is general need to set up. Since he has to carry the eviolite , he has no source of recovery and will get easily worn down by physical walls because he needs to set up a SD before he can take it out. Even in that aspect, lot of powerful physical walls can just eat up his moves and keep on wearing him down. walls like mega aggron can take a few hits and retaliate back with e-quakes: +2 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 117-138 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. I'm not saying aggron can kill it with e-quakes(its got some bulk with eviolite) but aggron doeas have access to rest.
Also even other UU walls like chesnaught can take hits and wear him down with leech seed + spiky shield: +2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Chesnaught: 81-96 (21.3 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Another problem with it is that even with eviolite, it will be easily KOed by special attacks like scald(which will also burn it) or surf: 252 SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 175-208 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and I don't even have to start about super effective attacks:252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 377-447 (118.1 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And finally it can't be a mixed sweeper like Aegi was in OU, so once it's burned and you don't have a cleric alive on your team, he is pretty much worthless without any recovery and losing HP from the burn and just waiting to be KOed. So I think that these are all valid reasons as to why doublade should not be raised to a higher rank.
Too true. I forgot about its ability no guard which makes it easy for pokemon like amoongus, vivillon and rotom-c to status it with spore, sleep powder and will-o-wisp respectively. I also agree that shadow sneak is not enough as STAB because 40 power even after SD is not going to OHKO anything except maybe chandelure. And once it is burned or put to sleep it can be set up fodder for pokemon that are a threat to it like NP lucario with dark pulse and substitute chandelure.
SSJ I like how you say that M-Aggron would beat Doublade, when it is actually the opposite in most cases.
Turn 1, Doublade SDs as you switch to M-Aggron
Turn 2, M-Aggron Earthquakes and Doublade SDs again
Turn 3 + 4, M-Aggron fails to 3HKO and Doublade cleanly 2HKOes with Sacred Sword
+4 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 175-207 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 90-108 (28.2 - 33.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
And eww, Gyro Ball Doublade. Iron Head is the way to go, which hits notable fairies harder too. As Chesnaught does pitiful amounts with Wood Hammer and relies on Leech Seed to kill over a few turns, Doublade easily gets to +4 and 2HKOes yet again:
+4 252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 240-283 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you have phazing on either Pokemon Doublade is easily wish healed back by clerics which pair very well with it, and can dent the physical walls after a +2 and an Iron Head/Sacred Sword to boot as it is phazed.
Now I'm not saying that Doublade is with its flaws, and bulky waters, and Dark-types and burns are 3 of its greatest draw backs, admittedly, though I do not think that this is enough to make it unviable as people seem to make it out to be.
Special Attackers in general aren't that big of a thorn in Doublade's backside either. Granted Doublade won't be switching in on many and setting up, but using the example of your Kingdra, granted I got the +2 on the physical mon I just forced out, I survive your Surf and then:
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 200-236 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO followed by
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 135-159 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
= bye bye Kingdra
Granted I am not saying it is a flawless S-Rank Pokemon, as it does have flaws, but it has a rather valuable and reliable niche in the metagame that should warrant it at least B rank, where it would be at home with other mons with successful niches such as Toxicroak, Shuckle and Diancie (god knows why Diancie is even higher than Doublade atm) who have a similar amount of flaws (though imo they have more).
No, I will not stop until my two swords of justice are moved up
Turn 1, Doublade SDs as you switch to M-Aggron
Turn 2, M-Aggron Earthquakes and Doublade SDs again
Turn 3 + 4, M-Aggron fails to 3HKO and Doublade cleanly 2HKOes with Sacred Sword
+4 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 175-207 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 90-108 (28.2 - 33.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
And eww, Gyro Ball Doublade. Iron Head is the way to go, which hits notable fairies harder too. As Chesnaught does pitiful amounts with Wood Hammer and relies on Leech Seed to kill over a few turns, Doublade easily gets to +4 and 2HKOes yet again:
+4 252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 240-283 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you have phazing on either Pokemon Doublade is easily wish healed back by clerics which pair very well with it, and can dent the physical walls after a +2 and an Iron Head/Sacred Sword to boot as it is phazed.
Now I'm not saying that Doublade is with its flaws, and bulky waters, and Dark-types and burns are 3 of its greatest draw backs, admittedly, though I do not think that this is enough to make it unviable as people seem to make it out to be.
Special Attackers in general aren't that big of a thorn in Doublade's backside either. Granted Doublade won't be switching in on many and setting up, but using the example of your Kingdra, granted I got the +2 on the physical mon I just forced out, I survive your Surf and then:
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 200-236 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO followed by
+2 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 135-159 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
= bye bye Kingdra
Granted I am not saying it is a flawless S-Rank Pokemon, as it does have flaws, but it has a rather valuable and reliable niche in the metagame that should warrant it at least B rank, where it would be at home with other mons with successful niches such as Toxicroak, Shuckle and Diancie (god knows why Diancie is even higher than Doublade atm) who have a similar amount of flaws (though imo they have more).
No, I will not stop until my two swords of justice are moved up
Even if doublade sets up, I did mention spiky shield which paired with leech seed will be able to stall it out pretty much. Spiky shield and leech seed take 24% of doulbade and after it attacks, go for another SS and thats another 24%. Then, with leftovers and leech seed health, it can survive for more than 2 turns and might be able to kill it if it can get off two SS in a row.
As for your post on mega aggron, I also agree that doulblade can finish it off if it gets to +4. But any sane person would switch out to a special attacker after seeing it set up SD and after seeing the damage done by E-quake.
As for the thing about kingdra, I agree that it can be 2HKOed if it can set up a SD, but assuming there wasn't a physical mon in the first place, kingdra would take the win.
And lastly, I did say that any decent special attacker can KO it easily. Even if manages to get past a mega aggron or a kingdra, it stands no chance against pkmn like Hydreigon, mega houndoom, nidoking and NP lucario even if it is at +2 or +4(maybe lucario at +4). Doublade is a good pokemon but it's not great.
- You are assuming that the Doublade user does fall for the Spiky Shield in order for you to win that battle at any rate, as it can Swords Dance again on a Spiky Shield.
- And just how well is your Special Attacker going to take a +4 Sacred Sword followed By +4 Shadow Sneak? My guess is not very well at all.
- I've already stated in my first post its range of Pokemon that Doublade gets its setup opportunities on, which also includes some of the most common clerics and Physical Attackers. Not to mention it can abuse some Choice locked mons rather well.
- And lastly, its a bit of a nah shit sherlock that Doublade, being a Physical Tank, cannot stand up to Super-effective STAB attacks from the likes of Special attack beasts such as Hydreigon, M-Houndoom and Nidoking. And I'm not sure if you read in my post before, but granted that NP Luc isn't running Dark Pulse, as now a few of them would run Vacuum Wave instead, Doublade can switch in and beat it even if it Nasty Plots on the switch. Or did you miss that part?
"B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are good in the UU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. They can all still function very well given the right team support, but they have numerous flaws that minimize their impact on the tier."
I find this to be a pretty darn good sum up of Doublade's current status in the tier, and so, once again, I'll push for it to get B Rank.
1. I meant that it can't go on using SD even after it is at +4. It needs to attack and will get hit by the spiky shield.
2. First of, it needs to survive an attack before it can hit a special attacker with its +4 scared sword and +4 shadow sneak. If I missed something about doublade having speed boost or something, I'm pretty sure a hydreigon will attack before it.
3. Any pokemon that has access to set up moves will get a set up opportunity eventually, especially if the opposing pokemon is choice locked into a not very effective or no effect move.
4. Well, I assumed most lucario's ran dark pulse since it is an easy way to deal with psychic types. But if people don't use it, then fine. There are plenty of other special attackers that can terrorize doublade in the UU metagame.
I know what B rank means but I don't see doublade reaching it with its current stats and movepool.
And I don't know if you missed a couple of posts but you do understand that your +4 atk doublade can as easily be taken down as it can be killed. Thanks to its ability in No guard, he makes sure that any Will-o-Wisp from any pokemon would hit it.That would be a great end to its sweep and it will just end up as setup fodder.
This assumes that Doublade has gotten to +4 and you switch to Hydreigon [insert special sweeper] as it switches in on Sacred Sword.
I'm arguing that Doublade has more setup opportunities than any mon, given how common some of its setup opportunities are, and therefore it proves to be more reliable.
Granted Will-O-Wisp is a pain (though I have calced how Sableye reliably beats Sableye (as long as it isn't Foul Play) with a SD before its switch in and that is about the most common switchin) but I did also state that cleric support is rather necessary in most cases.
And lastly, have you actually used Doublade? Because I know of quite a few people have had great success with it.
Don't forget Scald's a thing. Although this problem is prevalent with all physical pokes, it hurts doublade more since every existing bulky water is faster than it and burn severely cripples it (its job is sword dance sweeper and it has no way of removing burn)
And sableye's a hitch not only in general but to doub especially.
And sableye's a hitch not only in general but to doub especially.
That is my other irk about Doublade yes he does have some ease at setting up, though it is more mandatory to him than Fletchinder who shares the same B- rank can still revenge kill certain threats without need of setting up by merit of base power + typing, I don't find the meta kind to him in as much as there are such a prevalence of dark type attacks - specifically knock off - as well as status in WoW/Scald Hax. This is even more particularly noticeable with Doublade as he does not carry the luxury of using Lum berry to bypass this and screw over would be status spreaders. More importantly relies on Evolite to maintain his bulk, which is important given his low speed tier.
Which to me is a bigger difference of Cacturne from Doublade, whose ability is relevant in a meta where Suicune is top dog right now, as Cacturne ability not only grants him a relevant immunity (in as much that it also gives Gastrodon & Heliolisk a leg up from other mons) but protects him from Scald burns, which is important to a physical attacker. I guess if the viability rankings want to be more lenient I guess I could see him at B- but I definitely have more reservations about him.
I'm not really of the opinion that just because a Pokemon was used with success that it immediately jumps out as being good rather for me I find what is more is whether the Pokemon was used as a condition for success, how relevant is it in general for a win etc. Since a lot of things have been used to good success but not everything is necessarily a condition for success.
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I didn't switch in on the knock off. The move was there on a pokemon that I wasn't expecting(I don't remember exactly which one). And whats important about this is that from what I gathered from the posts by RowDog, doublade is supposed to be physically defensive. How good will that be if it just doesn't like taking knock offs?
I'd nominate Whimsicott for B+ or even A-. This thing has a godly typing (can take mixed lo hydreigon or hydreigon that doesn't want to go for fire blast really well, takes on fighting spam pretty well and walls the hell out of krookodile), has arguably some of the best team support in the entire tier (tailwind, stun spore for paralysis support, encore support, u-turn for momentum) and has been working out really well for me lately. it really doesn't care about taking knock offs and serves as a check to lucario because of encore support into a setup move. as an addition EQ SD lucario doesn't do too much to max def whimsi which is arguably its best set. just my two cents, but whimsi has been working incredibly well really lately and considering the rising popularity of fighting spam, whimsicott's viability in the metagame is going up. Hard to believe a little cotton ball can stop a huge crocodile's earthquake, but it can, and with glamor:
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 91-108 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 91.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
its best move is stone edge, but the calc from a banded stone edge from an adamant banded krook:
252+ Atk Choice Band Krookodile Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 134-158 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16% means most of the time it won't be 2hko'd. Whimsi can threaten it out with a moonblast and u-turn, or even setup a tailwind/leech seed and get things going.
and just for matchup against top mons, whimsi beats hydreigon without fire blast, can encore lucario into setup (assuming it has it) and can live any move barring ice punch from the sd luke set even after +2 (here's the calc)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 177-209 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
can also scare it out with stun spore.
jirachi is more of a problem but then again, even though you wouldn't stay in on an iron head it lives the scarf set's iron head and cripples it with stun spore.
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 176-210 (54.4 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
so there you have it folks. whimsi, in my eyes, does not deserve to sit in B rank when you consider how much support it gives and how much of the top threats it checks.
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 91-108 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 91.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
its best move is stone edge, but the calc from a banded stone edge from an adamant banded krook:
252+ Atk Choice Band Krookodile Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 134-158 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16% means most of the time it won't be 2hko'd. Whimsi can threaten it out with a moonblast and u-turn, or even setup a tailwind/leech seed and get things going.
and just for matchup against top mons, whimsi beats hydreigon without fire blast, can encore lucario into setup (assuming it has it) and can live any move barring ice punch from the sd luke set even after +2 (here's the calc)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 177-209 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
can also scare it out with stun spore.
jirachi is more of a problem but then again, even though you wouldn't stay in on an iron head it lives the scarf set's iron head and cripples it with stun spore.
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 176-210 (54.4 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
so there you have it folks. whimsi, in my eyes, does not deserve to sit in B rank when you consider how much support it gives and how much of the top threats it checks.
I do agree. I was mainly questioning whether some of the people criticising it had actually used it before or just versed it on rare occasion. Though I do wonder when someone gets into the top 10 with a generally unused Pokemon why it was chosen and how it pulled its weight, and more often than not would have led to at least some of that team's success.
But idc anymore, I'll settle for B- rank and just keep the secrets of Doublade to myself then.
I agree with what you say. I think whimsicott should be moved up to B+ rank. It takes fighting spam really well like you said and also tailwind allows it to help slower pokemon on your team. Thanks to prankster, it can always do something for the team even if it is about to be taken out. Leech seed with access to the really nice defensive typing of fairy grants it a lot of opportunities to set up tailwind and also lock pokemon into moves like stealth rock and SD while you can switch to your pokemon and set up. It also gets a turn of setup after it switches into choice scarf flygon's outrage,(or any outrage for that matter)which is becoming very common.
The only secret about doublade is that it got to B- rank because it could wall a particular pokemon's particular set.
SSJ obviously you aren't in on the secrets ;) (even though I've stated them over the past few posts of mine in this thread).
Please don't reply to this, this dispute has already been resolved and doesn't need to continue to clog the thread, so I'll leave it at that.
EDIT: Might as well make a bit more of a comment. I don't think Diancie is deserving of B Rank at the moment and feel that Diancie should move to C Rank. It really does not have much of a niche at the moment. Its shit speed, HP and movepool really hold it back at the moment. Not being able to invest in one side because its STABs on different sides of the attacking spectrum sucks, coverage sucks and no recovery as well as susceptibility to all forms of status really sucks. Bulky Waters walls any fire-types better now that Victini is gone, and in the Fairy department we have more useful Pokemon in Forges, Aromatisse and Granbull, who aren't let down by a horrible type combination. Rock leaves it vulnerable to Ground, Water, Grass and Steel-type moves, especially with the last case with Steel. Its few roles that it can fill are generally done better by other more viable Pokemon in the tier, and so I'd say Diancie should move to C Rank at least B-.
Please don't reply to this, this dispute has already been resolved and doesn't need to continue to clog the thread, so I'll leave it at that.
EDIT: Might as well make a bit more of a comment. I don't think Diancie is deserving of B Rank at the moment and feel that Diancie should move to C Rank. It really does not have much of a niche at the moment. Its shit speed, HP and movepool really hold it back at the moment. Not being able to invest in one side because its STABs on different sides of the attacking spectrum sucks, coverage sucks and no recovery as well as susceptibility to all forms of status really sucks. Bulky Waters walls any fire-types better now that Victini is gone, and in the Fairy department we have more useful Pokemon in Forges, Aromatisse and Granbull, who aren't let down by a horrible type combination. Rock leaves it vulnerable to Ground, Water, Grass and Steel-type moves, especially with the last case with Steel. Its few roles that it can fill are generally done better by other more viable Pokemon in the tier, and so I'd say Diancie should move to C Rank at least B-.
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I am using the end of the discussion about doublade as an excuse to bring up, once more, that whimsicott should be moved to B+ rank. It can take hits from fighting types as well as bulky water types and threaten them out. It is also immune to dragon and has access to Prankster+leech seed+tailwind. It can lock pokemon into set up moves with encore and can even work well as a clean up sweeper which can take out pokemon with low HP left. It also has access to toxic which when combined with leech seed can even take out powerful walls. I think those are pretty much valid statements that show that whimsicott is deserving of at least B+ rank.
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