Also, a predicted or badly timed Defog can cost you if you're the one that has to face a Bisharp, since that also triggers Defiant.--> A+ Bisharp can be very good at sweeping with swords dance. With Access to sucker punch and iron head, it can be used for just getting big damage off. It has defiant which raises attack by 2 (+2) whenever any stat is lowered, making it a good counter to sticky web teams. With only 70 speed, it can be used in trick room as well. Overall this pokemon is very good and can be a huge sweeper if played right. It can also carry sub, which is amazing on it, making it able to set up sd, at the cost on 25% of health however, but I run leftovers when I use the sub/ SD Set.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Lol we killed Azu. I was going to say that I changed my stance on dropping it, and that I agreed with keeping it in S. Is it too late to re-start that conversation? AV Azu is really good against offense, but struggles against balance, but you have teammates for that. Azu does not Belly Drum is not that good, I will give you that, it is an outdated set that needs to die. To be honest, Azumarill is more S Rank worthy than Greninja is. Greninja is so hard to switch into, but its bulk equates to that of a wet paper bag, and I have always found it to be very inconsistent. Its ability to restrict hyper offense in teambuilding is a complete farce, all you need is an Assault Vest Azumarill and a Pokemon faster than Greninja and you are good. How is it more S Rank worthy than Azumarill? Azumarill is easy to fit on a team because it checks half the meta with one set alone. Greninja is not as threatening to offense because most offensive teams carry Assault Vest Azumarill to begin with.
Please do not bring Garchomp up to A+. Almost every single one of its sets, bar Life Orb Chain Chomp, are highly Landorus-T weak. Choice Scarf Garchomp under performs for me, and the Stealth Rock set flat out loses to Clefable and Landorus-T, and is not breaking either of them without Swords Dance, which requires Magnezone just to remove Ferrothorn and Skarmory so it is not stopped in its tracks by them. Keep it in A Rank.
I am assuming that ben gay nominated regular Heracross, but for what reason?
Gothitelle dropping to C+ makes sense. It is so hard to fit onto a team because it loses to almost every single offensive Pokemon in the entire metagame without Scarf, which makes it unable to break the defensive Pokemon it is supposed to trap.
Nominating Magnezone to A is too sudden. You refused to bring Jirachi to A- rank because the meta has not adapted to it, and I therefore ask we do the same with Magnezone, because the meta just needs more time to adapt to it.
Wait, did you mean to drop Thundurus to A-? I thought we nominated it for A+...
EDIT:
That is why most Defoggers have to play very cautiously around Bisharp rather than just freely Defog away. At this point, you are not using Defog when a Bisharp is around unless you know you can handle it.
Bisharp also benefits from the increase in Landorus-T usage, especially Mega Manectric and Landorus-T VoltTurn cores. While it can't counter those cores, it's a huge deterrent and pain in the butt for those teams. It's never going to return to its DeoSharp days, it is on the rise again.
I was lurking for awhile and playing some Showdown and i just noticed a singular pokemon that could take advantage in this Manectric/Magnezone meta. Although this meta is Psychic spam as i see it, I see a pokemon that is quite anti meta rn. That pokemon is Swampert. Now, I understand that Swampert has no good ability at all, but it does in fact have Rock, Water (STAB), Ground (STAB) and Ice coverage, which is really good in this meta with things like Lando T, Tflame, and MMan crawling around. So, just for now, I just wanted to say that Swampert has some potential in this meta, and it shouldn't be misinformed.
-TeeEffEll.
-TeeEffEll.
The thing about Azumarill is that you can tailor it to be your offense or balanced terrorizer, depending on how your team performs vs. either playstyle. It doesn't have to be excellent vs. every playstyle. Speaking of this, I don't see how Greninja and Latios perform so well vs. every playstyle, considering Greninja is utterly helpless vs. anything with a nice special defense stat that can be found on balance (clefable, sylveon,) or stall (chansey). Not to mention Latios' horrid time with sand. These two Pokemon are amazing, but Azumarill is just that Pokemon that can win nearly every 1v1 scenario in the entire tier because of its amazing typing that may be the best in OU, and its Groudon-level power. I guess I trust the judgement of the OU council, but I have yet to have seen a good argument for Azumarill's placement. I don't see how Assault vest is useless against balance considering that just by having it on the team you're checking like every high rank Pokemon except for a few, and I don't see how this is bad enough to move it down. As for CB, Ferrothorn is Superpower'd, Slowbro is most likely 2HKO'd without even needing SR, meaning the poison grass types are the only valid things stopping Azumarill when it goes vs. balance...
This guy is hands down the most useful/reliable Poke in OU imo... but if people really thing Greninja is better I won't complain anymore.
This guy is hands down the most useful/reliable Poke in OU imo... but if people really thing Greninja is better I won't complain anymore.
I have to admit, I've been wondering why Swampert's not on the list. Yes, there's already three water/ground types out there, but all three are defensively oriented, while Swampert is more balanced/offensively oriented, which should give it a place in the rankings imo. I don't have enough info to talk about it much myself, though.
TFL is this your brother?
Movepool is only a part of a mon's viability, the other aspects being stats, typing, and ability. While Swampert is a neat mon, he's rarely a useful fit with all the great bulky waters running around.
Aah, no, Im not TFL's brother :p just a joke alt. Don't worry i won't cause no harm to this thread, just checking in!
The reason why he's so good is his Ground typing. While most Water types can't handle Electric types, Swampert can, as most Electric types run HP Ice and not Grass. Swampert basically counters MMan.
Grenina can take advantage of its counters with the Spikes set, to support the rest of its team. Coupled with some fast hard hitters that can beat Rapid Spin and Defog users, defensive teams crumple to the pressure of SR + Spikes really fast.
As for Latios, it's a bit less effective against stall, but it's a great Pokemon against every other playstyle, and is versatile enough to beat any Pursuit user. And even against stall, Latios can still do work as long as you pair it with a Pursuit user to weaken Pokemon such as Doublade, Jirachi, and Chansey (Bisharp, Weavile, Choice Band Tyranitar are all great options).
The problem with Spikes is that its set is now 4MSS, leading to it forcing to remove one of its four important coverage moves, just to have an immunity.
Greninja is an S rank pokemon, no doubt, but its not perfect. The thing is you make Greninja look like the next coming of Jesus and its not. It is a starter with an amazing ability but crippling defenses and Attack. It can easily be KO'ed by half of the meta before he can KO it, which kinda sucks.
I only described how Greninja can be useful against any playstyle. The rest are just stuff you made up for whatever reason. Also, Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse is still great coverage, and even if now a few Pokemon are able to check Greninja now, such as Ferrothorn, Keldeo, and Azumarill, the ability to fuck up defensive and balanced teams is worth it.
ye, i got off topic.
That is great coverage but it puts A+ rank pokemon like Azu and other Fairy types easy bait for Greninja, leading to a ko. I mean, Greninja is now the bread and butter of teams, no doubt, but those three checks you mentioned are also bread and butter to teams, so now you need to run Magnezone (or something else that checks all three) to kill them, and Mag has trouble with two of the three. Honestly, Greninja is only good as an all out attacker, not a spikes setter, and it definitely puts pressure to teams otherwise. We have Ferro, Shed Shell Skarm, etc. you know?
It also doesn't hurt that Pokemon such as Gengar and Latios are also on the rise. I know those two have their ways of getting around Bisharp through coverage, but the 50/50's it creates with Sucker Punch and Pursuit can get real frustrating. And with that dual-Intimidate VoltTurn core of Mega Manectric and Landorus-T, along with Defog in general, Bisharp is such a good mon to have to make the opponent play a bit more cautiously.
Im very sorry for double posting (unless someone posts after me) but i just want to say that with my last post:
"I was lurking for awhile and playing some Showdown and i just noticed a singular pokemon that could take advantage in this Manectric/Magnezone meta. Although this meta is Psychic spam as i see it, I see a pokemon that is quite anti meta rn. That pokemon is Swampert. Now, I understand that Swampert has no good ability at all, but it does in fact have Rock, Water (STAB), Ground (STAB) and Ice coverage, which is really good in this meta with things like Lando T, Tflame, and MMan crawling around. So, just for now, I just wanted to say that Swampert has some potential in this meta, and it shouldn't be misinformed.
-TeeEffEll."
I would like to suggest a nomination for Swampert to D. Baby steps, for now.
"I was lurking for awhile and playing some Showdown and i just noticed a singular pokemon that could take advantage in this Manectric/Magnezone meta. Although this meta is Psychic spam as i see it, I see a pokemon that is quite anti meta rn. That pokemon is Swampert. Now, I understand that Swampert has no good ability at all, but it does in fact have Rock, Water (STAB), Ground (STAB) and Ice coverage, which is really good in this meta with things like Lando T, Tflame, and MMan crawling around. So, just for now, I just wanted to say that Swampert has some potential in this meta, and it shouldn't be misinformed.
-TeeEffEll."
I would like to suggest a nomination for Swampert to D. Baby steps, for now.
Alright, I know the discussion is on greninja in S and all but i was looking at the lower ranks and some of them are pretty skewed atm. I'm gonna be nominating Empoleon and M-Houndoom for b or b- rank.
Empoleon is honestly really fucking good in dis meta, one of the only reliable defog users that can handle 99% of azu sets. It's resistant to rocks, can defog, and can set up rocks. It also has the added benefite of being able to switch in on the latias and to an extent greninja also. Imo bulky waters are amazing in general but empoleon has just so much fucking utility its ridiculous. It can actually tank alot of attacks from some crazy ass mons, too lazy to put calcs but trust me that shit tanks. I saw ben gay , Reverb, and others use this mon pretty god dam effectively in matches because its probably imo one of the easiest mons to get a defog off cuz of all da shit it can potentially come in. Cmon u guys have mandibuzz at b (lol) but honestly empoleon is really amazing in dis meta as a reliable and deserves to be bumped up to b- at the very least.
Alright now for my M-Houndoom explanation. This shit is super anti-meta with decent enuf team support this mon kinda stomps on defensive cores (rachi slowbro mew glisc bullshit) easily. Mew, arguably the most reliable defog user gets so much pressure put on itself when this mon comes like srsly tell me what mon sets up on a mew for free lol even m-hera fears burn from fast mews. Moreover it also has a few decent utility options with sub, willo wisp, etc. To be honest its mainly its sheer power even without a np up that makes it really gud not to mention its speed tier (above the latis and speed ties with starmie) is pretty fucking sweet. If u don't believe me ask Tesung about it, that man had a whole phase with using that mon. It honestly deserves atleast a b-rank with decent support it is probably one of the most terrifying cleaners/wall breakers.
Finally i would like to nominate starmie for atleast A rank, it is a fucking crime that this mon is not A yet lol. Probably the most reliable spinner in dis meta (fuck exca) because you can't simply switch on the lo set. Analytic is insane on switches and trust me starmie puts in alot of switches with its coverage and just racks up isnane amounts of damage. 115 base speed is a very solid speed tier far faster than most of the meta. Furthermore its bulky set is nothing to slack on either. It is able to perform the role of bulky spinner with its access to recover and other utlity moves such as reflect type and its other ability natural cure. NOT only that it is aruably the best hazard remover on h-o weatherless teams. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLY shit this mon on h-o literally has no other mon that even compares to it lol (fuck latios garbage ass defogger imo). its ability to run defensive capabilities on balance,semistall, etc and its god like presence on h-o with its lo set deserves it to be bumped up to A IMO. Oh btw with reflect type it can also beat some hazard setters such as ferrothorn.
TLDR
Empoleon and M-houndoom ---> b or b-
Starmie ----> A
Empoleon is honestly really fucking good in dis meta, one of the only reliable defog users that can handle 99% of azu sets. It's resistant to rocks, can defog, and can set up rocks. It also has the added benefite of being able to switch in on the latias and to an extent greninja also. Imo bulky waters are amazing in general but empoleon has just so much fucking utility its ridiculous. It can actually tank alot of attacks from some crazy ass mons, too lazy to put calcs but trust me that shit tanks. I saw ben gay , Reverb, and others use this mon pretty god dam effectively in matches because its probably imo one of the easiest mons to get a defog off cuz of all da shit it can potentially come in. Cmon u guys have mandibuzz at b (lol) but honestly empoleon is really amazing in dis meta as a reliable and deserves to be bumped up to b- at the very least.
Alright now for my M-Houndoom explanation. This shit is super anti-meta with decent enuf team support this mon kinda stomps on defensive cores (rachi slowbro mew glisc bullshit) easily. Mew, arguably the most reliable defog user gets so much pressure put on itself when this mon comes like srsly tell me what mon sets up on a mew for free lol even m-hera fears burn from fast mews. Moreover it also has a few decent utility options with sub, willo wisp, etc. To be honest its mainly its sheer power even without a np up that makes it really gud not to mention its speed tier (above the latis and speed ties with starmie) is pretty fucking sweet. If u don't believe me ask Tesung about it, that man had a whole phase with using that mon. It honestly deserves atleast a b-rank with decent support it is probably one of the most terrifying cleaners/wall breakers.
Finally i would like to nominate starmie for atleast A rank, it is a fucking crime that this mon is not A yet lol. Probably the most reliable spinner in dis meta (fuck exca) because you can't simply switch on the lo set. Analytic is insane on switches and trust me starmie puts in alot of switches with its coverage and just racks up isnane amounts of damage. 115 base speed is a very solid speed tier far faster than most of the meta. Furthermore its bulky set is nothing to slack on either. It is able to perform the role of bulky spinner with its access to recover and other utlity moves such as reflect type and its other ability natural cure. NOT only that it is aruably the best hazard remover on h-o weatherless teams. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLY shit this mon on h-o literally has no other mon that even compares to it lol (fuck latios garbage ass defogger imo). its ability to run defensive capabilities on balance,semistall, etc and its god like presence on h-o with its lo set deserves it to be bumped up to A IMO. Oh btw with reflect type it can also beat some hazard setters such as ferrothorn.
TLDR
Empoleon and M-houndoom ---> b or b-
Starmie ----> A
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Stealth Rock is not that difficult to provide though, so it is not that much of a big deal though. But yeah, Azumarill for A+ is borked.
CB Azumarill can't get past Slowbro because it's always paired with a solid Fairy resist, and Slowbro can switch out with minimum health losses.
Ok, ill explain Swampert more throughly.
Im mostly gonna explain why i think its anti Meta, because it kinda has the same move pool as Mamoswine except with a better typing. Of course it has no abilities to give it an advantage, but everything else is fine. Check it out: It has Ice, Rock, Ground, Water, and even Fighting coverage. That hits at least 85% of the meta in a single pokemon. It hits Electric, Flying, Fire, Steel, Ground, Dark, etc. typings, and all those typings are REALLY relevant in the meta. It also has decent bulk and albeit having no recovery, it still does a lot in one pokemon. It can phaze (although probs outclassed by Skarm) it can sweep, it can do lots of things, and the meta is really in its favor, with its amazing coverage. I honestly think Swampert should move to D, and i know this is an unpopular opinion.
Im mostly gonna explain why i think its anti Meta, because it kinda has the same move pool as Mamoswine except with a better typing. Of course it has no abilities to give it an advantage, but everything else is fine. Check it out: It has Ice, Rock, Ground, Water, and even Fighting coverage. That hits at least 85% of the meta in a single pokemon. It hits Electric, Flying, Fire, Steel, Ground, Dark, etc. typings, and all those typings are REALLY relevant in the meta. It also has decent bulk and albeit having no recovery, it still does a lot in one pokemon. It can phaze (although probs outclassed by Skarm) it can sweep, it can do lots of things, and the meta is really in its favor, with its amazing coverage. I honestly think Swampert should move to D, and i know this is an unpopular opinion.
Greninja has the bulk of a wet paper bag, and has no safe opportunity to switch in and set Spikes to begin with.
Greninja finds free turns the same way that all frail offensive Pokemon do, by forcing switches with its huge offensive presence. Let's focus on the Pokemon i highlighted for discussion now, thx.
I can see why people would want to to drop Tyranitar but I honestly don't think it should. It beats 3 of the 4 S-ranks one on one and can also trap one of them even with HP Fighting if you're using CS Tyranitar. Pursuit in general is just very useful to kill off weakened Pokemon attempting to switch. It's Rock typing provides your team with a Flying spam check and revenge killer and pairs well with Excadrill even if it's just 4 turns of sand because once you don't need Tyranitar anymore you can sack it and bring Excadrill in to do some serious work. Of course there's the other sets like Support Smooth Rock and CB but the Choice Scarf set is THE reason to not drop. Choice Scarf Tyranitar is just really neat because it beats Mew one on one or with some small prior damage and also does work against Jirachi and can trap Gengar, Starmie, Lati@s, Gothitelle, etc. Latios and Latias combined usage alone is almost 50% so Tyranitar almost always has shit to do in a match. Tyranitar isn't just useful for it's trapping abilities because it's 134 base attack lets it get the 2HKO on things like Mega Medicham, Mega Garde and Mega Heracross. Forgot to add that it outspeeds Scarf Magnezone and can run Ice Beam on the Scarf set to catch a Landorus-T, and also wall Manectric and do some damage with Pursuit as it attempts to Volt Switch out all which is pretty neat.
Will comment on other Pokemon later.
Will comment on other Pokemon later.
Since we should talk about the pokemon to discuss, ill use Hippo.
Hippo is a great mon, and it sets up sand well. It does something that TTar does not, which is recovery, which is why i usually use it over ttar.
It also is bulky, and its Ground STAB is amazing. I don't know too much about Hippo, but thats about it.
Hippo is a great mon, and it sets up sand well. It does something that TTar does not, which is recovery, which is why i usually use it over ttar.
It also is bulky, and its Ground STAB is amazing. I don't know too much about Hippo, but thats about it.
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