Having a usable niche job that a very specific team requires I generally don't have a problem with, it's all these shit-tier mons in the lower ranks that don't do anything different from higher tier mons aka Salamence syndrome whose only existence on the list is because it's someones favorite poke and they somehow managed to get a nomination through as there are *ZERO* justified excuses for using it over one of the higher tier mons.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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The problem with this is that the rankings are not just based off of how threatening things are, they are also based off usability, versatility, ease of fitting it onto a team and support required. The Deos were both S Rank at one point, and Deo-D especially wasn't threatening by itself. Latios is much easier to fit onto a team and provides more support to a team than Terrakion and Landorus-I. You're looking at this somewhat narrowly.
Ok so I've never seen, used or even heard of AV Heracross before this topic and I'm not sure if it'd be any good but I think Heracross should stay in D Rank for it's Choice Scarf set. There is a decent enough list of pokemon in the higher ranks that it can safely revenge kill with minimal prior damage: Greninja, Latios, Charizard-Y/Thundurus (Stone Edge), Excadrill, Mew, Bisharp, Terrakion, Mamoswine, Mega-Tyranitar. This combined with moxie allows it to double as a semi-decent late game cleaner coming in on something like a weakened Landorus-T for a quick Moxie boost and then just spam Close Combats or Megahorns. The problem with this is that Scarf Heracross is mostly outclassed by Scarf Terrakion which can revenge kill the same things. BUT, Heracross does a much better job at revenging Psychic types. Megahorn OHKOs Latios while X-Scissor from Scarf Terrakion only does like 80% to it. Similar situation with Slowbro who Terrakion has no chance of getting past but Heracross does, same with Mew. Heracross also has Moxie which is far more useful than Justified and mitigates the problem Terrakion has of being forced to lock itself into a STAB that's walled by something, costing momentum. So Terrakion mostly outclasses Scarf Heracross because of it's better speed making it not useless against setup sweepers STAB Megahorn with all the Psychics in the tier right now and Moxie should be enough to keep it on the list as a tool to revenge kill faster wallbreakers off-guard and clean late-game with Moxie.
Tbh I love flygon but here's its issues:Alright, well I'm going to hopefully start an interesting conversation here, as I see the lower rankings are in need of some work. A long time ago, when I was pretty new to the site, I enjoyed using Flygon. I told someone that I used it in OU, and they said, "Go ahead and nominate it on the viability rankings. I dare you."
Months later, I finally have followed up on that. I've come back with more experience not just in the OU metagame, but on the forums, and I feel I deserve to at least have a say. I'm hoping not to get chewed out for this, but we'll see. Let's do this.
Flygon: Unranked ----> C+/C
The main reason this person told me Flygon was bad was because of Garchomp. This Generation, Garchomp received a Mega, leaving Flygon in the dust. However, I feel Flygon at least has some use in the metagame.
Advantages over Garchomp:
•Huge move pool. Garchomp kind of has a 4 move slot syndrome and is fairly predictable.
•Access to U-Turn as well as many support moves
•Access to Roost and Defog (Will get more into that)
Disadvantages:
•Much less immediate power.
•That's... Actually about it. Flygon stats are a little lower, but not low enough where they are useless.
Moving on to its new purpose in X&Y: Defog support. Flygon has Levitate, making it immune to Spikes, and it's typing is resistant to Stealth Rocks, unlike Mandibuzz or Latios. It might not be as bulky as some common Defoggers, but an advantage over Latios is that it doesn't have to get Pursuit-trapped every time Bisharp comes in. Just predict the switch and Earthquake away. A quick set I threw together:
Flygon @ Leftovers
EV: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpE/Atk
Ability: Levitate
Impish Nature
-Earthquake
-Roost
-Defog
-U-Turn/Dragon Claw/Tailwind
This set takes full advantage of Flygon's excellent support move pool. Tailwind is especially helpful with slower sweepers, but you can choose to run U-Turn over it for a bit of momentum. A specially-defensive set can be used as well.
Other options:
-Fast enough to pull off Taunt sucessfully
-A Scarf set is also viable with U-Turn
I'm hoping this is enough to at least start a conversation. I haven't been too involved in the viability rankings just because of my unique opinions. I feel people would argue way too much with me. If any more information is required, feel free to let me know.
1. Middling speed tier
2. Mediocre defenses fail to compensate for said speed tier
3. Below average offenses
Basically, a worse case of Salamence syndrome. It'd a neat check to sand I guess but Lando-T exists :/
Comparing it to Lando-t is more accurate than Garchomp, really, and it's just so much worse in every way
I wish flygon had enough to make it viable as it's muh favorite dargon but it's just too badly outclassed
Or how about nominating the Pokemon you think should change ranks instead of proposing that we waste all the effort that has been put so far to create the lower ranks. Even if you don't agree with the majority of the lower rankings, a little respect and recognition to the effort that has been put by the ranking team doesn't hurt, instead of saying ''let's remake C and D ranks from scratch''. Anyway, i am ok with remaking the lower ranks as soon as we end with this batch of changes to discuss.
And, no more Avalugg talk, the points in favor and against it have been made, we will see what we will do about it.
i'mma post more on this later but i'm feelin edgy atm so here's my proposal...
Clefable from A+ -> S
this thing is so fucking good it's insane. it's just so fuckin easy to slap on teams and perform well, its versatility is unreal. it has two of the best abilities for defensive mons in unaware and magic guard, its movepool is versatility is next to unmatched, and it has that sexy sexy mono-fairy typing. real talk tho what other individual mon has access to moves to stealth rock, heal bell, wish, knock off, two forms of reliable recovery, calm mind, stored power, twave, great coverage moves etc etc AND the stats to back it up... (sry wigglytuff)
but cha it has so many viable sets that check so much shit, standard lefties cm magic guard alone checks huge threats like thundy, ninja, the latis, nd more, and that's just w/ moonblast! flamethrower/fb, knock off, stored power... depending on which one u want clefs normal checks/counters get brought to their knees. even sdef tran loses to the knock off set, w/out lefties whatchu gon do?
and that's just one set, u still got shit like lo magic guard cm sweeper, unaware cm sweeper, unaware cleric nd these are just broad terms to describe cookie-cutter sets that each have a clusterfuck of usable subsets to fuck over clef's typical checks nd counters. i guess it's arguable but i can't think of a mon that is threatening to so many playstyles by itself (or fits on so many so well).
tl;dr clef is so stupidly versatile, it easily fits onto almost any team archetype extremely easily (bar ho), it needs literally no support while providing a shitton in return, it easily checks many of the most threatning mons in the tier, blahblahblah i'd like to see clefable in S pls
Clefable from A+ -> S
this thing is so fucking good it's insane. it's just so fuckin easy to slap on teams and perform well, its versatility is unreal. it has two of the best abilities for defensive mons in unaware and magic guard, its movepool is versatility is next to unmatched, and it has that sexy sexy mono-fairy typing. real talk tho what other individual mon has access to moves to stealth rock, heal bell, wish, knock off, two forms of reliable recovery, calm mind, stored power, twave, great coverage moves etc etc AND the stats to back it up... (sry wigglytuff)
but cha it has so many viable sets that check so much shit, standard lefties cm magic guard alone checks huge threats like thundy, ninja, the latis, nd more, and that's just w/ moonblast! flamethrower/fb, knock off, stored power... depending on which one u want clefs normal checks/counters get brought to their knees. even sdef tran loses to the knock off set, w/out lefties whatchu gon do?
and that's just one set, u still got shit like lo magic guard cm sweeper, unaware cm sweeper, unaware cleric nd these are just broad terms to describe cookie-cutter sets that each have a clusterfuck of usable subsets to fuck over clef's typical checks nd counters. i guess it's arguable but i can't think of a mon that is threatening to so many playstyles by itself (or fits on so many so well).
tl;dr clef is so stupidly versatile, it easily fits onto almost any team archetype extremely easily (bar ho), it needs literally no support while providing a shitton in return, it easily checks many of the most threatning mons in the tier, blahblahblah i'd like to see clefable in S pls
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And Aromatisse has Aroma Veil (taunt immunity) over Clefable, which allows it to beat stallbreakers like taunt+roost Aero and Mew. This doesn't mean Clefable isn't the better choice on 99% of teams, though. Same thing with Conkeldurr/Heracross; yeah, Hera has Pursuit+bug resists (and weaknesses) but Conkeldurr has Drain Punch and Mach Punch. It's not like Conkeldurr is terribly good, anyway.
Gonna have to agree with Jukain that C/D need cleaning up (again) and that people need to stop nominating stupid shit. With the standards of D rank right now I could probably think of a few dozen things I could make a serious case for.
Clefable is very excellent, but the main issue with it is that as long as the opponent has a strong physical steel STAB somewhere (Bisharp, Exca) it can't get very threatening. However, it doesn't necessarily need to set up as its SR set is also amazing. I guess with Greninja in S rank I could see Clef in S too...
Also because of sturdy/Magic Coat Avalugg can beat like every special attacker (think Char Y) just saying
Also because of sturdy/Magic Coat Avalugg can beat like every special attacker (think Char Y) just saying
The main problem I have with moving Clefable to S is that it kinda suffers from what I call Hippowdon syndrome. I always feel like it needs to be almost at full health to take all the hits it wants to take (this is especially true if you run the Mixed Defensive spread) This problem is mostly present with Unaware sets, Magic Guard sets are a lot better in that regard since they don't get worn down at all by Rocks/Hail/Toxic etc... but if you end up at, say, 80%, you often kinda just die to everything you're supposed to eat up, and that's a bit of a problem. This leaves you in situations where you switch into something, and are forced to recover immediately since if you get forced ou, you can't really come back in again. So you kinda have to play passively if you don't want to permanently lose Clefable, and sometimes you can't really afford to do that.
Another problem with Clefable is that it's very vulnerable to crits, more so than any other Pokemon I can think of. Not only is it pretty much dead whenever it takes a crit while switching in for the reason I mentioned above, it also has to spam recovery a lot of the time which leads to more opportunities to get critted, and let's not forget that crits often happen while you're CMing up. In theory, a Clefable already at +2 can beat a Modest Flash Cannon Heatran 1v1 (this scenario happens a lot by the way, usually when Heatran Overheats, Clefable uses it as setup fodder, Heatran switches out and comes back in again), but that literally never happens, since Heatran always end up critting it before it can boost up enough (unless it runs Stored Power I guess).
That being said, MG CM Clefable is probably the single most consistent sweeper in the tier, and always gets 1-2 KOs as long as it can find an opportunity to set up, which it often can. On the other hand, any set which doesn't run Calm Mind is pretty passive and kinda just sits there, especially considering how fast Calm Mind Clefable can get out of hand. If we do decide do move Clefable up, then it should be on the merits of Magic Guard Calm Mind set and no other IMO.
Another problem with Clefable is that it's very vulnerable to crits, more so than any other Pokemon I can think of. Not only is it pretty much dead whenever it takes a crit while switching in for the reason I mentioned above, it also has to spam recovery a lot of the time which leads to more opportunities to get critted, and let's not forget that crits often happen while you're CMing up. In theory, a Clefable already at +2 can beat a Modest Flash Cannon Heatran 1v1 (this scenario happens a lot by the way, usually when Heatran Overheats, Clefable uses it as setup fodder, Heatran switches out and comes back in again), but that literally never happens, since Heatran always end up critting it before it can boost up enough (unless it runs Stored Power I guess).
That being said, MG CM Clefable is probably the single most consistent sweeper in the tier, and always gets 1-2 KOs as long as it can find an opportunity to set up, which it often can. On the other hand, any set which doesn't run Calm Mind is pretty passive and kinda just sits there, especially considering how fast Calm Mind Clefable can get out of hand. If we do decide do move Clefable up, then it should be on the merits of Magic Guard Calm Mind set and no other IMO.
Alright, well I'm going to hopefully start an interesting conversation here, as I see the lower rankings are in need of some work. A long time ago, when I was pretty new to the site, I enjoyed using Flygon. I told someone that I used it in OU, and they said, "Go ahead and nominate it on the viability rankings. I dare you."
Months later, I finally have followed up on that. I've come back with more experience not just in the OU metagame, but on the forums, and I feel I deserve to at least have a say. I'm hoping not to get chewed out for this, but we'll see. Let's do this.
Flygon: Unranked ----> C+/C
The main reason this person told me Flygon was bad was because of Garchomp. This Generation, Garchomp received a Mega, leaving Flygon in the dust. However, I feel Flygon at least has some use in the metagame.
Advantages over Garchomp:
•Huge move pool. Garchomp kind of has a 4 move slot syndrome and is fairly predictable.
•Access to U-Turn as well as many support moves
•Access to Roost and Defog (Will get more into that)
Disadvantages:
•Much less immediate power.
•That's... Actually about it. Flygon stats are a little lower, but not low enough where they are useless.
Moving on to its new purpose in X&Y: Defog support. Flygon has Levitate, making it immune to Spikes, and it's typing is resistant to Stealth Rocks, unlike Mandibuzz or Latios. It might not be as bulky as some common Defoggers, but an advantage over Latios is that it doesn't have to get Pursuit-trapped every time Bisharp comes in. Just predict the switch and Earthquake away. A quick set I threw together:
Flygon @ Leftovers
EV: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpE/Atk
Ability: Levitate
Impish Nature
-Earthquake
-Roost
-Defog
-U-Turn/Dragon Claw/Tailwind
This set takes full advantage of Flygon's excellent support move pool. Tailwind is especially helpful with slower sweepers, but you can choose to run U-Turn over it for a bit of momentum. A specially-defensive set can be used as well.
Other options:
-Fast enough to pull off Taunt sucessfully
-A Scarf set is also viable with U-Turn
I'm hoping this is enough to at least start a conversation. I haven't been too involved in the viability rankings just because of my unique opinions. I feel people would argue way too much with me. If any more information is required, feel free to let me know.
Flygon is an interesting choice of defogger, but the meta isn't very kind to it in the slightest. You were comparing Flygon to Garchomp, but really there isn't much similarity in their play-styles if you're using Flygon as a defogger. If you're using Flygon as a defogger, it's actually competing with the lati twins. Many SR setters or their teammates are already going to be running some kind of dragon or ice coverage to deal with defogging lati@s, so Flygon already has checks and counters floating around due to teams being prepared for those threats. Base 100 speed wouldn't actually be that bad for a defogger, as it can outpace most common SR setters, and additionally threaten many of them with it's decent offensive coverage, but as the latis are at base 110 and have similar weaknesses, Flygon just struggles to find it's place as a defogger on most (if any) teams. U-turn as a defogger is also an interesting thought, but works better in theory than in practice. Flygon isn't going to be threatening most pokes enough to force them to switch, so U-Turn isn't going to help much with momentum. Plus, when you add in the fact that one of the more popular choices for SR setting is focus sash Mamoswine, who Flygon wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell against, Flygon is going to be hard pressed to find the right time to come in and defog without the threat of being KOd by the SR setter and giving them another chance to put rocks up. Realistically, the only SR setter that Flygon can handle better than the lati twins is Tyranitar. Flygon can usually nail him with superpower before he can set rocks, but even then it'd have to watch out for scarfed sets running ice beam. All in all, I think Flygon just struggles too much to distinguish itself from the lati twins as an offensive defogger, or even as a support defogger, as the latis also both have excellent support movepools to choose from as well. Basically the only thing that distinguishes Flygon from the latis as a defogger is U-Turn and a better handling of Tyranitar, which is still a bit of a gamble.
So, unfortunately, there's a lot going against Flygon in this meta. I don't see it getting ranked in OU anytime soon, and definitely not as high as C+. Flygon is a good UU 'mon, but it just doesn't have what it takes to hang with OU.
Now, if you have some other reason for wanting to use Flygon, go ahead and post it, I for one would be glad to see it, but I've got to tell you, I doubt anything Flygon has going for it is going to be enough to get it an OU ranking.
(And just as a side note, Flygon can't learn taunt.)
I dont realy care about most of of the mons up for discussion but i wanna share my point of view on Hippo and Magnezone.
First Hippo. I think he should stay in A-. He is just an amazing defensive pokemon in my eyes. His all around defenses are so good that he is totaly customizable. Pure physical, pure special and everything in between, you can adjust his spread to what your team needs. The mixed spread i use checks/counters everything from Char Y to +2 Mega Pinsir. Pretty much the only thing he cant check at all are the watertypes like Greninja and Keldeo. Hippo + something to deal with those (Celebi for example) and your set in terms of defensive cores.
He also brings decent offensive abilitys to the table. Stab EQ + Rockslide/Stone Edge is good coverage and prevents him from beeing setup bait most of the time. If you dont need the Rock coverage you can go for Whirlwind/Toxic to prevent set up all together. He surely has his shortcummings, like needing to be at full life to do his job and therefor killing momentum with recovering but thats a small price for handling so much stuff along with providing SR support. Especially now with Mega Man and Raikou on the rise he is better than ever as he renders them basicly useless switching into any attack blocking their volt switch and beating them 1on1. He also stops most set up sweepers of the tier, can severely damage most wall breakers if they try to come in on him and even tank a hit from them if need be.
Regarding Magnezone i honestly feel like his time to shine is already over. The meta has adapted to his presence by now, severely limiting his utility. Skarm will always have shed shell now a days, Scizor is running the offensive set for the most part to just ko him when he tries to trap and Heatran or Jirachi dont give a fuck about him. Pretty much the only thing thats still screwed by Magnezone is Ferrothorn who has never been a reliable check to anything in the first place so its not such a big blow to teams using him, they will most likely have a secondary answer to the things Ferro was supposed to handle anyway. Also if you want to get rid of Ferro your usually better of just using a lure to deal with him, mons like Hp Fire Latios are just as good at removing Ferro and much better overall. That gets me to the next point. If Mag was a great pokemon in his own right moving him to A would be fine, but he is not. The scarf set is weak af, cant even ohko offensive Scizor 100% of the time with HP fire and the Specs set is slow and frail and will often get killed before it can even do something. Choice Volt switch in a meta full of Lando-T and other groundtypes kills momentum just as often as it gains it especially if the volt switch user cant even run hp ice to deter them from comming in. Flash Cannon does nice damage to them but also gives a free switch to a million other dangerous things. As the meta is now i feel like Zone is often more of an liability than an asset. If anything Zone should move back down to b+ imo.
Hippowdown is severely hindered by its lack of resistances. 252/252+ Hippo needs to be at very high health to switch in to that Mega Pinsir, for example. It is incredibly bulky, but many of OU's offensive pokemon are also incredibly powerful. It's just too easily worn down, and it's too exploitable when it has to recover all the time cause so many attacks 3HKO it.
Also, you're seriously undervaluing Ferrothorn (again.) Yeah, HP Fire Latis beats it, CB Superpower Azu beats it, etc. etc. but that doesn't help all the stuff that isn't running coverage specifically for it, not to mention stuff that Ferro is a PITA for like DD M-Ttar and Mega Dos. It's an excellent defensive and support pokemon, and getting rid of it is valuable to a lot of teams. Yeah, lures, but Ferro's best set runs Protect, and having something that reliably traps and eliminates Ferro means 'zone's teammates don't have to waste a moveslot on coverage for it.
-I didn't know 70/115/90 defenses and no less than thirteen resists/immune is frail.
-Prediction and losing momentum is an issue for every choiced attacker.
-Skarmory is meant to deal with a lot of pokemon that can run Knock Off, Shed Shell isn't reliable all the time
just an fyi the teams that mag is on have adapted straight back to skarmory by running stuff like knock off pinsir, and last i checked offensive scizor isn't a reliable counter to stuff like mega gardevoir
knock off pinsir loses so much coverage tho and teams that use knock off mega p + zone get shit on by heatran... or at least that core does
Clefable can resist to their Iron heads if full Physically Defensive , even if there's 30% of Flinch. Moreover has a move that is specifically used for them: Flamethrower (and Fire blast)
you should never stay in on exca or bisharp if you're a clefable but yeah neither of them can switch in to clef either
I am not undervaluing Ferro, i am just saying you cant rely on it to check the things you want it to because they can have coverage to fuck you over. Thats a fact, take it as you want. To me thats a big issue and the reason i dont realy like Ferro. If your fine with it thats ok, different players different preferences. Protect is nice and all but it wont always save you if the opponent plays it right and even if it did, is it worth having Zone JUST for that if there are other overall better options that can also do that?
You can theorymon over zones defenses all you want but at the end of the day most neutral attacks will 2hko and everything SE will ohko. It can switch into DMs fairly well i will give it that but it cant do much back so thats mood. And using Knock off on Pinsir is a stupid idea honestly dunno who came up with that. It helps compensating for Zones inability to do its job by giving up a shitload of coverage against other things causing far more problems than it solves.
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Scarf Heracross autoloses to Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, neither of which you have even mentioned. Terrakion does not like Banded Brave Birds either (though Aerilate Quick Attack only does a little less than 40% unboosted, and up to 77% at +2), but at least it outspeeds a +1 Zard X and can KO it with Stone Edge. Also, Heracross is Azumarill and Clefable bait, whereas Terrakion can hit Azumarill a lot harder thanks to STAB Stone Edge, and can actually beat Clefable with a small amount of prior damage. Heracross cannot do either of these things, and is completely ripped apart by Flying priority, whereas Terrakion is not even OHKOd by Talonflame's Brave Bird, even if it has to be close to full HP just to survive it. I think that Terrakion's advantages are much more apparent than Heracross, who is not even going to lure in Slowbro to begin with, because only a really bad player would bring Slowbro in on Heracross on most circumstances due to Bug STAB.
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In general, a decently fast Guts user able to directly threaten Psychic-types is an extremely useful thing to have with Mew being everywhere, and to a lesser extend Slowbro. Conkeldurr can't do much damage to physically defensive Mew even with Knock Off and straight up loses even when burned if he lacks Knock Off, while having huge 4mss that Heracross doesn't. Even Choice Band Heracross is a decent option, as it's very hard to wall, does a good job at weakening physical walls and pivots, and takes advantage of Mew beautifully. And of course being able to outspeed every defensive Pokemon instead of being outsped by most of them is incredibly useful. Honestly, Heracross might rise even higher if people start catching up, but for now he is fine in D rank.
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 302-356 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't see why you would talk about Guts user to threaten psychics, but then assume that the Guts user won't have a move to actually threaten them with. Conk is a pretty damn good counter to Mew. Conk doesn't have 4MSS either. His standard spread has nearly perfect coverage, only missing out on Azumarill.
Mew isn't exactly a terror of teams either, it feels like weak reasoning to add HCross when there are already answers to Mew especially with the increase in usage of dark moves/types.
Only dumb players would spam WoW while Mew still has its item and Conk is on the opposing team. After Mew gets his item Knocked Off, it can burn Conk and slowly wear him down as Conk does 9.4% damage maximum each turn and loses 12.5% life each turn from the burn. Also, if Conk is running Knock Off, he only has one slot to run Ice Punch / Stone Edge / Poison Jab, which means that depending on what it chooses it gets checked by quite a bit of Pokemon.
And then there is also that huge Speed difference and the STAB Megahorn.
It seems you aren't used to facing a well played Mew, because Mew can stall out whole unprepared teams and very few Pokemon want to switch into Knock Off and WoW, outside of Fire-types, many of which are Stealth Rock weak and hate losing their item (such as Heatran).
Can we just drop Conkeldurr down to C+ maybe even C while we're on this discussion? Offensive teams kind of just pick at Conkeldurr little by little and its biggest pro is only taking off items with Knock Off while in most cases it fails to sustain itself long enough with Drain Punch against actual good builds and players. I mean, within the past posts the cons have been pretty much highlighted more or less. Has to choose what it can actually fight against while getting walled or beaten against what it misses out on. Sure you can use the argument that it has a bit of versatility but its versatility is garbage when you consider that its strongest attack off of the standard set, not factoring in STAB and what not, is a base 75 move that can only some what heal you for a generally short duration of time before it loses it again. Also like alexwolf mentioned Conkeldurr only deters status users a bit and in most cases any average player with a brain will know not to just throw status willingly with Conk still up, so it only gets Guts activated in very occasional situations. Pivoting ability is kind of shit cause it does so only a couple of times and succumbs to repeated damage or hazards, unlike something such as Rotom-W which can at least recover with Pain Split if need be. Conk has really fallen from grace and every team has an answer for it by default without even trying.
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