Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Gloating]

If it wasn't weak to Stealth Rock then I would say MAYBE get it ranked in D but SR just hinders it too much imo specially when it's your spinner. With Stealth Rock on the field it struggles to wall all these threats. It's outclassed by Skarmory as well as -Clone- pointed out already.

Anyways I'll just talk about my opinion of Gothitelle and Magnezone since I haven't really used the others too much.

Magnezone shouldn't move up it's being overrated a lot and A- is just fine for it. The usage of it has also made people adapt by using Shed Shell, Jolly Talonflame, etc which isn't good for Magnezone.

Gothitelle is also just fine where it is just because it's ability is so good and forces Trick on things like Mew turning it into easy set up with Calm Mind. It also has the Specs set which is pretty good as well. It's not very good against offense but can still fire off some attacks or Trick something.

 

[Karxrida]

You guys are forgetting that Avalug's only STAB is the shitty Avalanche, which requires it to get damaged to do anything meaningful, and that Gengar cockblocks the fuck out of it.

8 Atk Avalugg Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 202-238 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 313-370 (79.6 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not even gonna bother with calcing Focus Blast.

Lug's a piece of shit. It has no resists which means it provides no defensive synergy to any team.

Edit #14: This post by Sweep is about Avalugg in UU, but it kinda applies here to. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-uu-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3516418/page-11#post-5775675

 

[Yuttt]

You guys are forgetting that Avalug's only STAB is the shitty Avalanche, which requires it to get damaged to do anything meaningful, and that Gengar cockblocks the fuck out of it.

8 Atk Avalugg Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 202-238 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 313-370 (79.6 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not even gonna bother with calcing Focus Blast.

Lug's a piece of shit. It has no resists which means it provides no defensive synergy to any team.

Edit #14: This post by Sweep is about Avalugg in UU, but it kinda applies here to. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-uu-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3516418/page-11#post-5775675

I don't want to respond to bad posts like this (referring to the second half, the gengar point is decent although avalanche on switch (60BP) does around 40-50%), but here goes.

If you bothered to read my post, I listed a lot of pokemon avalugg countered. 'Defensive synergy' for a team isn't all about typing, its about countering 'mons.
The post by Sweep is valid, but ghosts are rather rare in OU.

Stop focusing on what KOs avalugg. Look at what avalugg counters.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't want to respond to bad posts like this (referring to the second half, the gengar point is decent although avalanch on switch (60BP) does around 40-50%), but here goes.

If you bothered to read my post, I listed a lot of pokemon avalugg countered. 'Defensive synergy' for a team isn't all about typing, its about countering 'mons.
The post by Sweep is valid, but ghosts are rather rare in OU.

Stop focusing on what KOs avalugg. Look at what avalugg counters.

First of all, thanks for bashing my post. I'm sorry I can't live up to your high standards of posting.

Secondly I did, and like Celticpride034 said many of those things you "counter" beat you with SR up, which makes you a very shaky counter if Lug doubles as a Spinner (which you specifically brought up). Ghosts being rare is kind of irrelevant when the one Ghost that is running around not only stops you from doing your most important job but gets a free Sub/Wisp off of you or just flat-out kills you, making Avalugg complete dead weight.

Like Sweep said, Lug looks good on paper 'cause of its stats but isn't good in practice because it's not hard to break down when it have one of the worst defensive typings in the game.

EDIT: Something I forgot to mention is that you can't even kill some of those Mons you "counter" before they beat you even if they can't 2HKO you, so you're going to lose to them anyway.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Although those calcs for for Lugg are surprisingly impressive, none of them account for rocks. Which ends up making them a lot less impressive when you consider the added 25% you woukd be tacking onto that. Yes it has recover (for whatever reason, logic amirite), but of all those mons that were listed all of about 0 of those allow a free switch in. End up outspeeding and finish it off. The biggest problem for the iceberg is getting that free switch in on these top tier threats. Which, isn't easy to do. Not to mention, as it has been stated, Lugg can't exactly do anything in return aside from recover over and over until they switch or it runs out, which either way ends up forcing it right back out. I see a tiny niche, but its speed, and rocks weakness is a pretty big problem for this thing.

B-, no, not at all. D, yea with how inflated this is, i can see it in D for what it can do.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

Regular Heracross had some sort of niche? I thought it was complete shit lol.

Hi, can we do all of us a big favor and restart below B- rank from scratch? There are so many glaring flaws, few actual standards, and quite frankly a bunch of terrible Pokemon that populate these ranks. For example, out of D Rank, Blissey, Cobalion, Cofagrigus, Tentacruel, and _maybe_ Seismi/Zygarde are the only viable things. I really hope I don't have to explain why these other things are terrible, the fact that Assault Vest Heracross gained a rank by itself is ridiculous. Many Pokemon are questionably ranked, and I have heard many significant issues from people with these ranks. Restarting the ranks in that range from scratch is optimal to preserve the legitimacy of them and, moreover, to represent the metagame accurately for newer players.

About assault vest hera, I was actually the one who nominated it for D rank, and I think D is right where it should be. It doesn't do much, but an assault vest/guts set can check basically any scald user one time, and potentially remove them from the match. In my nomination post, I explained that even specs keldeo's scald is only a 3HKO, which would allow AV hera to hard check it once, assuming it's locked into scald. The only real reason I could think not to rank hera is because it actually faces competition with the other AV/guts user, conkeldurr. I don't actually use conk that often, so I'm not exactly sure if there are any relevant things that AV hera would check that AV conk wouldn't, so if someone else wanted to make that comparison to come to a better conclusion, that'd be appreciated. But really, that's the only reason I could think to unrank AV hera from D. Because even though AV hera isn't some 100% effective special/status sponge that can KO any user of those types of moves, it checks a decent number of extremely relevant threats, including some that even it's mega form couldn't take on. Alexwolf put up a good list earlier:

Oh sorry forgot about it. It was added in D rank for its Assault Vest set, which checks a lot of Pokemon, such as Mew, Thundurus, Greninja, Gengar, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Slowbro, and has good matchups against many more, while not being easy at all to wall, and being a good status absorber. It's usually a one time check to those Pokemon though, so you have to put it on offensive teams, and it needs a lot of prediction to pay off, but that's why it's in D rank.

So with that in mind, that's why I nominated AV hera for D. It definitely shouldn't rise any higher than that, but I think it has just enough going for it to be ranked.

 

[Yuttt]

In a brief response to the above Karxrida and MuhFugginMoose , Avalugg spins on all rock setters in this meta but Terrakion, Heatran, and Landorus-I. Landorus does not run rocks very often afaik, and Terrakion dies early in the battle (taunt lead). It is easy to pair Avalugg up with a hazard controller that beats Heatran. However, this is more team support, and that is why I don't think Avalugg should be ranked as high as skarm is (B+).

Avalugg still counters Landorus-T, non-LO Diggersby, non-fire blast garchomp and non-band dragonite (and probably more) with the specially defensive spread. I think Avalugg has a large enough niche to be at the same rank as 'mons like Zapdos and Togekiss.

And dealing 40% to gengar on the switch is ample damage to beat it eventually, although it still hinders avalugg's capabilities (unless your team can't beat gengar, in which case it won't matter anyhow).

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

In my view you can't feasibly have Thundurus and Mega Gardevoir in the same rank. Maybe they have come closer in viabilty recently but I still look at them and see two pokemon with very different support requirements when teambuilding and in their usefulness against offense. If you really believe Thundurus is A+ then you have to move Gard back down in my opinion.

 

[Karxrida]

In a brief response to the above Karxrida and MuhFugginMoose , Avalugg spins on all rock setters in this meta but Terrakion, Heatran, and Landorus-I. Landorus does not run rocks very often afaik, and Terrakion dies early in the battle (taunt lead). It is easy to pair Avalugg up with a hazard controller that beats Heatran. However, this is more team support, and that is why I don't think Avalugg should be ranked as high as skarm is (B+).

Avalugg still counters Landorus-T, non-LO Diggersby, non-fire blast garchomp and non-band dragonite (and probably more) with the specially defensive spread. I think Avalugg has a large enough niche to be at the same rank as 'mons like Zapdos and Togekiss.

And dealing 40% to gengar on the switch is ample damage to beat it eventually, although it still hinders avalugg's capabilities (unless your team can't beat gengar, in which case it won't matter anyhow).

Using this list. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bottom-up-team-building-via-roles.3514141/#post-5647932

Bisharp
Do people actually run this? You can't spin until it's dead anyway.

Clefable
Kills you.

Cobalion
Not relevant.

Dugtrio
Not relevant.

Excadrill
Same as Bisharp.

Ferrothorn
Can't hurt you much directly, but you have to touch it to spin. Iron Barbs + Leech Seed + High HP Stat + possible Rocky Helmet = Rock up eventually.

Garchomp
You have to use Avalanche to kill it first, giving the opponent momentum. Fire Blast can 2HKO.

Infernape
Not revelant, but can beat you if it decided to run Mixed that day. Physical still does a ton, so you have to kill it first.

Jirachi
You can't kill it and it might Paraflinch you to death even if you could.

Kabutops
Not relevant as a SR setter.

Lando-T
You can spin, but it might just U-turn or Knock Off.

Mamoswine
You can spin.

Metagross
Not relevant.

Mew
Burns you and/or uses Knock Off.

Shuckle
You spin, then get Encore'd.

Smeagle
Really shitty, but Spore.

Tyranitar
Known to run Fire Blast, which 2HKOs. You can't really do much to it anyway (Earthquake can't even 2HKO offensive T-Tar), so it can fish for Def drops from Crunch if it has to.

There are more but it's late.

Even on the ones you can spin on, your low speed means they can just reset Rocks the next turn and force you to kill them before spinning again (unless you want to start Cherry Tapping them), giving up momentum. Several of them can threaten or cripple you otherwise like Lando-T or Bisharp (seriously though who runs SR Bisharp?).

There's also the fact that needing secondary hazard support defeats the purpose of using Avalugg as a spinner in the first place, so you should just use something else that doesn't suck at its job.

 

[Flamer]

Can we stop with the Avalugg discussion. Its trash, plain and simple. You can't spin reliably, have a crippling SR weakness which is really shit for a spinner that is going to be getting forced out a lot because of the amount of things it loses to, barely any offensive presence and a crappy typing. There is no feasable way for Avalugg to be ranked on here, it has absolutely no use in the meta. You can make biased arguments all day but in the end it won't be ranked. No one is stopping you from using it but maybe using something that isn't a steaming pile of horse shit will give you better results.

 

[QueenOfHax]

Avalugg can work in OU as a physical wall, but not as a spinner.
With Avalanche, EQ, Recover and Roar, as long as you have RS/Defog support Avalugg is a surprisingly solid wall that can check almost the entire physical meta in OU.
Before anyone says "what, a wall that needs hazard control?", this happens all the time with Ho-oh and Lugia in ubers or even ChariX in OU, so I don't see where the big deal is.
I used it this way in the early XY meta when the broken shit like Mega Lucario and Genesect were running rampant and it worked decently. Now that those threats are gone I can see Avalugg working even better.
It should be ranked *somewhere*, so I agree to start off with D rank.

Also, please stop saying that ice has no useful resistances. Ice resistance is useful.

 

[Albacore]

I've been trying out Metagross recently and it's really not bad in all honesty, and it certainly has enough advantages over Jirachi to not be completely outclassed. So many offensive teams are weak to Latios and Gardevoir, and it's nice to have something that can switch into them while also fitting well on offense. Yeah, I guess Scarf Jirachi can do that too, but it's easier to play around due to being locked in, and doesn't hit nearly as hard. alexwolf mentioned some of Metagross's advantages over Jirachi, namely more power, EQ to hit Heatran and Pursuit to trap Latis and Garde (which works really well because no-one sees it coming). I'd also like to add that Bullet Punch is really nice to pick off weakened foes, and Clear Body, while situational, lets you deal a a lot more damage to Lando-T switchins, so that's another plus. It does suffer from slight 4MSS, not being able to fit all 5 of Iron Head/Meteor Mash (I always alternate between the two, I kinda prefer Iron head because Mash keeps missing and you don't really need the extra power, but the attack increase can really help coupled with Bullet Punch - for example if you get the attack boost on the scarf Lando-T switchin you can finish it off with Bullet Punch if Rocks are up), Bullet Punch, Earthquake, Pursuit, and Zen Headbutt (important for countering Venusaur). But that really just depends on your team's needs. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Metagross rise to C-, and it's certainly good enough to stay ranked.

Agreeing with Garchomp rise to A+. It's uite possibly the best offensive rock setter in the tier, and even when it's Sashed it's actually able to put its bulk to very good use. I especially like the SD set paired up with Magnezone, since SD really compliments its ability to set up rocks by making it an immediate big threat, and it's also fantastic at wearing stuff down and gaining momentum as it dies. There's no 100% certain way of shutting it down completely, you can wisp it but some carry Lum, Lando-T likes to U-Turn on it but Rocky Helmet wears it down very fast. It's just a fantastic lead on HO teams which are able to generate enough momentum to keep rocks up (incidentally Spikes Greninja is a fantastic partner to it).

 

[horyzhnz]

Just going to post a few thoughts about a few mons:

C- ---> C+
After trying it over Rotom-W, I feel that Rotom-H is actually quite good in this current metagame. Although Rotom-H is weak to SR and has a bad Water-type weakness, it has more resistances than Rotom-W, and performs its role pretty well with some degree of support. Rotom-H checks birdspam nicely; Talonflame cannot do anything and Rotom-H can take a +2 CC/Return from Mega Pinsir and OHKO back with Overheat, although it has to watch out for Choice Band Staraptor's Double-Edge, while also handling common birdspam partners such as the standard Magnezone; OHKOing with Overheat or using Volt Switch to get momentum, as well as severely messing up Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor which both get OHKOed, even with maximum investment. Rotom-H makes a decent status absorber, eating up both Thunder Waves and Will-O-Wisps, it can pivot on Electric-types such as Raikou and Thundurus(-T), and it discourages Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur and Breloom from coming in for free, either chunking or outright OHKOing them. The Choice Scarf set, despite being less effective than Rotom-W's, is not too shabby; despite Overheat's power drop, it still works decently with Fire/Electric only being resisted by a few Dragon-types which it can pick off with HP Ice, Gastrodon, and Quagsire, of which the latter two are quite uncommon.

A- ---> B+
I don't feel like Hippowdon is worthy of an A- ranking, mainly due to the fact that it's a pretty large momentum sink. It's got some nice moves to choose from such as Whirlwind and Slack Off, but it feels like a slight case of 4MSS to me. Hippowdon usually runs Stealth Rock, Slack Off, and Earthquake, but depending on what it runs in slot four, it's setup fodder for a lot of things; Skarmory walls it regardless, Mega Scizor sets up on non-Whirlwind sets, it can't do much to Rotom-WW without Toxic, it's pretty much unable to do much to anything that resists Earthquake unless it runs Rock Slide, and even then a lot of things can take advantage of it. In addition, depending on which spread it runs, specific threats handle it more easily; without any SpD investment, almost any good special attacker can deal heavy damage with a neutral hit, while without any Def investment, wallbreakers that the physically defensive set would fare well against such as Excadrill, Mega Medicham, and Mega Pinsir are able to 2HKO it. I'm kinda on the fence about this, but I don't really see a situation where Hippowdon doesn't have at least one crippling weakness. I don't think Hippowdon's bad by any stretch, with both spreads checking prominent threats, but I don't think it really deserves to be in the A rank.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

Just going to post a few thoughts about a few mons:

C- ---> C+
After trying it over Rotom-W, I feel that Rotom-H is actually quite good in this current metagame. Although Rotom-H is weak to SR and has a bad Water-type weakness, it has more resistances than Rotom-W, and performs its role pretty well with some degree of support. Rotom-H checks birdspam nicely; Talonflame cannot do anything and Rotom-H can take a +2 CC/Return from Mega Pinsir and OHKO back with Overheat, although it has to watch out for Choice Band Staraptor's Double-Edge, while also handling common birdspam partners such as the standard Magnezone; OHKOing with Overheat or using Volt Switch to get momentum, as well as severely messing up Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor which both get OHKOed, even with maximum investment. Rotom-H makes a decent status absorber, eating up both Thunder Waves and Will-O-Wisps, it can pivot on Electric-types such as Raikou and Thundurus(-T), and it discourages Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur and Breloom from coming in for free, either chunking or outright OHKOing them. The Choice Scarf set, despite being less effective than Rotom-W's, is not too shabby; despite Overheat's power drop, it still works decently with Fire/Electric only being resisted by a few Dragon-types which it can pick off with HP Ice, Gastrodon, and Quagsire, of which the latter two are quite uncommon.

A- ---> B+
I don't feel like Hippowdon is worthy of an A- ranking, mainly due to the fact that it's a pretty large momentum sink. It's got some nice moves to choose from such as Whirlwind and Slack Off, but it feels like a slight case of 4MSS to me. Hippowdon usually runs Stealth Rock, Slack Off, and Earthquake, but depending on what it runs in slot four, it's setup fodder for a lot of things; Skarmory walls it regardless, Mega Scizor sets up on non-Whirlwind sets, it can't do much to Rotom-WW without Toxic, it's pretty much unable to do much to anything that resists Earthquake unless it runs Rock Slide, and even then a lot of things can take advantage of it. In addition, depending on which spread it runs, specific threats handle it more easily; without any SpD investment, almost any good special attacker can deal heavy damage with a neutral hit, while without any Def investment, wallbreakers that the physically defensive set would fare well against such as Excadrill, Mega Medicham, and Mega Pinsir are able to 2HKO it. I'm kinda on the fence about this, but I don't really see a situation where Hippowdon doesn't have at least one crippling weakness. I don't think Hippowdon's bad by any stretch, with both spreads checking prominent threats, but I don't think it really deserves to be in the A rank.

Yeah, I agree with moving Rotom-H up. It has it's uses, and I could see it rising to C, but maybe not C+. Like you said, it has a lot of the same roles as Rotom-W, such as absorbing birdspam, but with enough differences that each performs a slightly different role. It has a lot of things it has to watch out for, but it does have the ability to threaten a lot of SR setters such as Garchomp, Mamoswine, Ferrothorn, and the like, which somewhat mitigates it's own SR weakness. It also threatens a different section of pokemon than Rotom-W, such as grass types which Rotom-W would hate to run into, and steel types that have been on the rise recently. It's typing also makes it pair well with different pokemon than Rotom-W, which can allow it to form cores with water types such as Azumarill or Keldeo, which would be redundant with Rotom-W. The biggest thing going for it though, is it's ability to suck up two statuses which are pretty common in burns and paralysis, while being able to fire them both back itself. It has a lot of drawbacks though, and being weak to common water and rock moves isn't ideal. It's still the second-best Rotom behind Rotom-W, but Rotom-H has enough uses to carve out it's own place in OU, so I'd say C would be a pretty good place for it.

I don't have much of an opinion on Hippowdon, as it's not something I use. However, I will say that in all the times I've faced one, it's never really been that integral to the battle. It falls to repeated hits easily due to it's low speed, and aside from setting up sand and SR, it doesn't usually offer much to a match. But again, it's not something I use, so I'm not really going to say whether or not it should drop; I'll leave that to people who know a bit more about it.

 

[Alfalfa]

Hi, can we do all of us a big favor and restart below B- rank from scratch? There are so many glaring flaws, few actual standards, and quite frankly a bunch of terrible Pokemon that populate these ranks. For example, out of D Rank, Blissey, Cobalion, Cofagrigus, Tentacruel, and _maybe_ Seismi/Zygarde are the only viable things. I really hope I don't have to explain why these other things are terrible, the fact that Assault Vest Heracross gained a rank by itself is ridiculous. Many Pokemon are questionably ranked, and I have heard many significant issues from people with these ranks. Restarting the ranks in that range from scratch is optimal to preserve the legitimacy of them and, moreover, to represent the metagame accurately for newer players.

I second this statement. These ranks need to be cleaned up. Some of these Pokemon just need to be removed from the list altogether. Assault Vest Heracross could at least be discussed before we even moved it up, and some of these Pokemon in C Rank just need to go.

Avalugg can work in OU as a physical wall, but not as a spinner.
With Avalanche, EQ, Recover and Roar, as long as you have RS/Defog support Avalugg is a surprisingly solid wall that can check almost the entire physical meta in OU.
Before anyone says "what, a wall that needs hazard control?", this happens all the time with Ho-oh and Lugia in ubers or even ChariX in OU, so I don't see where the big deal is.
I used it this way in the early XY meta when the broken shit like Mega Lucario and Genesect were running rampant and it worked decently. Now that those threats are gone I can see Avalugg working even better.
It should be ranked *somewhere*, so I agree to start off with D rank.

Also, please stop saying that ice has no useful resistances. Ice resistance is useful.

Can we please stop with the Avalugg discussion? Avalugg is really bad, and a weakness to Fire / Rock / Fighting type attacks (aka common physical-type attacks) does not help it whatsoever. You say that it can wall the majority of physical attackers in the meta, but at the expense of dying from any special attack, and getting worn down to death by Stealth Rock. It also hates Poison or Burn damage, and will auto-lose to common burn inducers, such as Mew, Talonflame, and Rotom-W. Also, Avalugg runs the risk of losing to physically-based setup sweepers, such as Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, that carry a super effective attack on Avalugg, such as Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, and the like..

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 274-324 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 264-312 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 396-468 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 468-554 (119 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Okay, it beats Dragonite, but you said it could handle Pinsir, yet it cannot. Can we please not rank this thing?

 

[TFL]

zzzz
everyone denying Avalugg's spinning ability when if you use it alongside Starmie you can spin on all but like 2 mons and they have good defensive synergy too. And the reason it has been brought up is because Skarm can't do its fukin job properly in this meta and can be somewhat of a liability. Some acting all high saying this thing sucks and shouldn't be ranked when it's leaps and bounds better than AV Hera. Wtf. Did you even give this thing a try?

also for -clone- or kar or whoever, no one runs Stealth Rock on Bisharp, Excadrill hasn't used Rocks since the first couple months of XY, Smeargle doesn't use em, dat Mew set is uncommon, so is that TTar's set etc. I legitimately see more use having this than Hippowdon and Mandibuzz in this meta, but they're still so high on this list. I honestly haven't seen either since Aeg got banned.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

Okay, I'm still seeing hate for AV heracross, which is understandable, but I don't think people are getting the point of him. Nobody is considering building a team around it, and nobody is going to just splash it onto any team with an open team slot. But it does have enough uses to warrant a D rank. It isn't some overwhelmingly useful pokemon, but it can check two S rank threats in greninja and keldeo, as well as several A rank threats such as thundy, gengar (if it carries knock off), mew, venusaur, rotom-W, slowbro, and mega manectiric. These are all pokemon that could potentially wreak havoc on teams, so having a one-time stop for them is a big deal. Now, I'm not saying that AV hera is the next big thing, or even something every team should consider, but if you're having trouble with these types of threats, it just might be what you need. It has enough going for it over it's mega to justify using it on certain teams, which by itself meets the definition of D rank. Being able to absorb status like WoW and T-Wave which are omnipresent in this meta is a huge thing, and being able to simultaneously check common status causing special attacks such as scald is an even bigger deal. Hera still has huge gaping weaknesses to birdspam, physical SE hits, and psyshock, and doesn't have the bulk to take repeated hits, but that's why it's only good enough for D rank. It has one niche job that it's able to perform, and struggles to do anything else. That's D rank. So before just saying that 'AV hera is crap' like I've seen here, actually give some solid reasons why it shouldn't be D rank; Don't just dismiss it out of ignorance.

 

[TFL]

Why use it over Conkeldurr? - SomeKidFromJohto

 

[Tressed]

zzzz
everyone denying Avalugg's spinning ability when if you use it alongside Starmie you can spin on all but like 2 mons and they have good defensive synergy too.

Running Starmie on top of Avalugg really isn't inspiring any confidence in Avalugg's spinning abilities. Generally you'd like to avoid redundancies while teambuilding, sooo.... Yeah.

 

[Molk]

Hi, i was gonna make a post here on why Avalugg sucks but then this came to my attention

Logs

[8:09:32 AM] Molk: avalugg
[8:09:37 AM] Molk: the B- worthy mon
[8:09:46 AM] [redacted]: molk oo
[8:09:53 AM] Molk: sup
[8:10:00 AM] [redacted]: hai, this is [redacted]
[8:10:15 AM] Molk: :O
[8:10:32 AM] [redacted]: I also rly hope they dont take that avalugg seriously.. its meant to be a joke/experiment ugh
[8:10:45 AM] Molk: so basically
[8:10:47 AM] Molk: it was a trollpost
[8:10:47 AM] Molk: ?
[8:11:07 AM] [redacted]: yea ppl basically said nom a random mon which is bad but give some reasons
[8:11:11 AM] [redacted]: and try to convicne peopel

But anyways yeah Avalugg sucks for pretty obvious reasons, its really bad defensive typing gets in the way of it walling pretty much anything, it has a really shitty STAB move to work with, and being weak to Stealth Rock despite being meant to spin it away isn't a good thing at all (especially when you're running two spinners at once just to support it, i mean come on, 9.9). The vast majority of the relevant metagame takes a shit on it either by virtue of typing or by being a special attacker and the *very* small amount of Pokemon/sets it can actually beat regardless of whether rocks are up or not isn't enough for it to warrant a rank, definitely blacklist the thing.

As for AV Heracross, i really don't see a legit reason to use it over AV conk (who has some form of recovery in the form of Drain Punch to keep itself alive and Mach Punch for priority over cross), but maybe i'm missing something.

EDIT: For the record i also think that revamping the lower ranks wouldn't be a bad idea, they look *REALLY* off to me as they stand now :x.

EDIT2: for the record Avalanche only has 120 BP if the opponent *hits you* which really sucks :[

 

[Destiny Device]

In fact, ranks below B- are extremely innacurate overall. Jukain posted exactly what I said yesterday at the OU room.
While people were struggling to make the rankings as accurate as possible at S, A and B, others just kept nominating extremely bad shitmons that have no business doing anything in OU for lower rankings (see: Ludicolo, Noivern) alongside actually usable stuff (like Slowking) and below even worse shit (Chandelure) and, in the end, those nominations were accepted with barely any feedback as people seem to (righteously) care more about the higher ranks. Recently, the only nomination that actually got feedback was Tornadus', and then all of a sudden the discussion was just randomly dropped. Hell, people are suggesting fcking Avalugg could get to D and then work its way up. Instead of trying to get bad stuff unranked, people just act like placing them a few ranks below what was suggested by the original poster is a solution. (Avalugg was suggested for B-, people said it was fine with D despite it being utter shit in OU). That is what happened to most of C- and D ranks (some were nominated straight to D and people just acted like it's ok to bump shitmons there!)
I understand some people may have had good experiences with Heracross, Noivern and other bad Pokémon but that doesn't mean they should be ranked at all. Everything has a niche, that is a fact. However, not all are actually good or useful and deserve a nomination. Bibarel has the unique combination of Unaware + Stealth Rock + Thunder Wave, Virizion rapes Bulky Offensive teams that rely on Slowbro/Ferrothorn/Mew cores, Gourgeist-Super counters Excadrill and Mega Gyarados... the list goes on. Are those shitmons viable? No, they are not, despite each filling a unique niche, but I bet they could be pushed to D-rank with enough effort.
Rebuild ranks below B-, taking into account only well-founded nominations of actually viable Pokémon.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

Why use it over Conkeldurr? - SomeKidFromJohto

That's the only real question I've had myself to justify not using it, so thanks for bringing it up. The only REAL difference is their moveslots. Most AV conks run something like drain punch/mach punch/knock off/ice punch, while heracross runs close combat/megahorn/earthquake/stone edge, or sometimes knock off over stone edge. This gives heracross an obvious power edge, so even though conk has slightly higher atk, hera usually hits harder. Additionally, there are a few pokemon that each covers better than the other. Conk's ice punch lets it check lando, gliscor, and 4x weak dragons, while hera's access to STAB megahorn lets it hit stuff like mega venusaur, slowbro, or cresselia much harder than conk's knock off, netting 2HKOs where knock off could only hope for 3 or even 4HKOs, and since most of those pokes have recovery moves, that gives hera the definitive edge on those targets. So more or less, hera functions better against stall; Otherwise, they play roughly the same. Heracross also actually has slightly better special bulk due to it's much higher SpD, even though conk has higher HP, but to my knowledge there aren't any crucial pokemon that OHKO conk but not hera.

Simply put, A) They check a few different things. B) Conk has priority, while hera has more immediate power.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

extremely bad shitmons that have no business doing anything in OU for lower rankings (see: Ludicolo)

...Ludicolo is practically the only Swift Swimmer that can handle both Gastrodon and Ferrothorn at once, two of the biggest threats to Rain period. How is that an "extremely bad shitmon" again?

 

[Hydrium]

In fact, ranks below B- are extremely innacurate overall. Jukain posted exactly what I said yesterday at the OU room.
While people were struggling to make the rankings as accurate as possible at S, A and B, others just kept nominating extremely bad shitmons that have no business doing anything in OU for lower rankings (see: Ludicolo, Noivern) alongside actually usable stuff (like Slowking) and below even worse shit (Chandelure) and, in the end, those nominations were accepted with barely any feedback as people seem to (righteously) care more about the higher ranks. Recently, the only nomination that actually got feedback was Tornadus', and then all of a sudden the discussion was just randomly dropped. Hell, people are suggesting fcking Avalugg could get to D and then work its way up. Instead of trying to get bad stuff unranked, people just act like placing them a few ranks below what was suggested by the original poster is a solution. (Avalugg was suggested for B-, people said it was fine with D despite it being utter shit in OU). That is what happened to most of C- and D ranks (some were nominated straight to D and people just acted like it's ok to bump shitmons there!)
I understand some people may have had good experiences with Heracross, Noivern and other bad Pokémon but that doesn't mean they should be ranked at all. Everything has a niche, that is a fact. However, not all are actually good or useful and deserve a nomination. Bibarel has the unique combination of Unaware + Stealth Rock + Thunder Wave, Virizion rapes Bulky Offensive teams that rely on Slowbro/Ferrothorn/Mew cores, Gourgeist-Super counters Excadrill and Mega Gyarados... the list goes on. Are those shitmons viable? No, they are not, despite each filling a unique niche, but I bet they could be pushed to D-rank with enough effort.
Rebuild ranks below B-, taking into account only well-founded nominations of actually viable Pokémon.

I always felt like the lower ranks meant things like Whimsicott, you know niche pokemon that have a justified use when building a specific team however if you just add them without thought or reason you are going to severely cripple your team, what the fuck is Salamance or Heracross doing outside of just being outclassed in every way? What are they bringing besides an inferiority complex? We turned the low ranks from "pokemon that will require support but they provide something no other poke does" into "IT'S JUST A SHITTIER VERSION OF X BUT I LIKE IT, RANK PLOX"

 

[Pyritie]

Rebuild ranks below B-, taking into account only well-founded nominations of actually viable Pokémon.

With what criteria though? If "everything has a niche", do you rank based on how important/useful that niche is? How good they are generally? If it can't do something better than a mon higher up, why rank it at all?