XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[Bouff]

yah, thats kinda true. i think a- would be be good for it for now

(for the record when i ran the changes through lochie, he said espeon was better off in b+ so i decided to put it there, although a- is fine)

 

[RyanKoopa]

I disagree with the move down for Blissey. Yes it's passive, but the fact remains that it gives the biggest wishes in the game so it isn't as much of a momentum killer as say Alomomola. And it's one of the most reliable sr setters in the metagame. These two facts combined with the fact that almost every single special attacker is worse just because it exists makes me think it deserves its current ranking.

 

[canasian]

I'd actually say that Blissey is more of a momentum-killer than Alomomola by a lot, considering how often it's forced to stay in for more turns healing itself with wishes while Alomomola can more easily pass them along thanks to Regenerator.

 

[RyanKoopa]

I'd actually say that Blissey is more of a momentum-killer than Alomomola by a lot, considering how often it's forced to stay in for more turns healing itself with wishes while Alomomola can more easily pass them along thanks to Regenerator.

It can always run Soft-Boiled in addition to wish to prevent that from being an issue

 

[Peef Rimgar]

It can always run Soft-Boiled in addition to wish to prevent that from being an issue

That's still wasting valuable turns while Alo can just switch into a threat and heal itself. It's by far more passive. Plus soft boiled and wish on the same set is kinda dumb lol

 

[dodmen]

Actually Wish-Boiled has its merits over Protect as you're wasting less turns, but anyway I agree with Blissey moving down to A- as that was something I brought up in the old viability thread too. Looking at all the mons in A, Blissey gives every single Pokemon there free turns. Even things that it seems to stop at first glance can easily take advantage of Blissey on the field - Chandelure can set up Sub/Calm Mind or can just Trick it, Espeon can do the same, the Nidos and Roserade can set up hazards freely (and Rose can even put it to Sleep for more free turns). Arguably the only one in A that it hard stops is Shaymin and even that's shaky at best: Seed Flare becomes a 2HKO after a drop.

I mean even in A- and A+, there's really nothing there that Blissey stops from doing its job that can't just momentum out of there. The possible exception is Mega Blastoise but Blissey has to be carrying SR in order to prevent free spins. Yes it hard counters like special attackers carrying 4 attacks but the majority of special attackers have other things they can do vs Blissey, and the ones that don't have Volt Switch or U-turn.

I also find it a bit sad that this "most reliable specially defensive wall" can be beaten by Mega Houndoom and even Porygon-Z if you're not running max special defense.

Basically, Blissey becomes much more of a liability than an asset against well built teams that can just take advantage of its presence. And this is addition to the fact (that a lot of other people have brought up) that it forces you to run like defensive balance or stall which are really subpar in this metagame.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Abomasnow-Mega for A- Rank IMO

Abo have lot of weakness + slow so kinda needs a lot of support but is really good when you give it the right support with Sword Dance + priority or Mixed set are great both.

Awesome bulk and an interesting typing which allows you to check waters (except aura blastoise-mega), opposite grasses types, fire types cant switch into EQ and Blizzard + Stealth Rock + hail damage wears down them, with Ice Shard can kill weak threats like Hydreigon, Haxorus, Aerodactyl-Mega, Alakazam, Nidos etc or sweep them after Sword Dance boost.

I just love Mega-Abomasnow, awesome bulk and have really a few switch in the tier which makes him extremely annoying to face even if is rly slow and have a lot of weakness.

Haldar

 

[RyanKoopa]

Now that Togekiss is BL, can we add Togetic back to C rank? If I recall correctly the only reason Togetic was unranked in the first place was because it was outclassed by its evolution, so now that Togekiss is no longer in the tier I see no reason why Togetic shouldn't be added back in.

This post of mine kind of got buried without being discussed. Your thoughts?

 

[Sweep]

Ah, I see Avalugg is in C rank along with Tangrowth and Porygon2. Who wouldn't want to use a slow Rapid Spinner that cannot beat spinblockers to save its life and is susceptible to all entry hazards? Peef and eaglehawk have already done a good job explaining why this terrible Pokemon should not be on this viability list, but I would like to further expand upon Avalugg's ineptitude to increase its chances of being removed entirely.

First of all, its chances of pulling off a Rapid Spin on any of the viable spinblockers -- Chandelure, Sableye, Mismagius, and Trevenaunt -- are minimal. You have stuff to hit Chandelure on the switch, such as Stone Edge and Earthquake, but they are not even guaranteed OHKOes (8 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 180-214 (68.9 - 81.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and you have to predict well to actually smack it with a coverage move. One on one, Chandlure obviously roasts Avalugg. Specially defensive Sableye takes ~31-37%% from Avalanche on the switch and can proceed to easily burn it. In other words, the two best spinblockers in UU check Avalugg. Avalugg can Toxic Sableye on the switch and switch out, but SR damage will wear it down quickly to a point where it cannot pull off a spin / will constantly have to spam Recover. Trevenant is beatable so long you hit it with Avalanche on the switch for ~50% damage, but it will still burn you with Will-O-Wisp and potentially stall you out. If Trevenant is physically defensive, it has an excellent chance of doing this. Mismagius cannot come in on Avalugg more than once, but can smack it for severe damage with Shadow Ball or simply burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Even if Avalugg somehow manages to kill a spinblocker, it will easily get forced out or revenged by another member of your opponent's team, further hindering its ability to pull off a spin. Avalanche's shitty mechanics (the user can only deal double damage if it has been attacked that turn) severely impact Avalugg's ability to punish spinblockers and the only other physical STAB move it gets barring the dreaded Ice Ball is Ice Fang. Good luck with that.

Second of all, its impressive 95 / 184 physical bulk is somewhat comprised by its awful pure Ice typing, granting it weaknesses to Fire, Steel, Rock, and Fighting-type moves. In other words, the STAB Stone Edges, High Jump Kick's, Iron Heads, and V-Creates flying around in the tier are still going to do massive damage to it, limiting the number of physical threats it can actually check. Though I don't deny that it can defeat the likes of Mienshao and Mega Aerodactyl 1-1, switching in is a whole different matter:

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252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 170-204 (43.2 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 250-296 (63.6 - 75.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also, thanks to its abhorrent special bulk, mixed attackers and lures are gonna give it nightmares:

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4 SpA Mega Absol Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 328-388 (83.4 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 364-429 (92.6 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

These factors severely limit the number of Pokemon that Avalugg can reliably check. Sure, it deals with most Flygon, Absol lacking Fire Blast, Krookodile, Drapion, and Cincinno, but it has such a terrible matchup vs. the vast majority of the top threats in UU that I don't feel it's worth running on defensively-oriented teams, even ones that don't desperately need it to spin.

Finally, that awful Speed stat, in conjunction with its terrible defensive typing and weakness to every hazard ever, leave it spamming Recover more often than not unless it would like an early exit from the battlefield. Walls are not meant to be speedy, bit this is a Pokemon that frankly needs to be faster.

I don't deny that Avalugg has some appealing factors on paper (great physical bulk, reliable recovery, ability to beat Ninjask, etc) but in practice it's an awful Pokemon that shouldn't be on the list.

 

[Machi]

Ah, I see Avalugg is in C rank along with Tangrowth and Porygon2. Who wouldn't want to use a slow Rapid Spinner that cannot beat spinblockers to save its life and is susceptible to all entry hazards? Peef and eaglehawk have already done a good job explaining why this terrible Pokemon should not be on this viability list, but I would like to further expand upon Avalugg's ineptitude to increase its chances of being removed entirely.

First of all, its chances of pulling off a Rapid Spin on any of the viable spinblockers -- Chandelure, Sableye, Mismagius, and Trevenaunt -- are minimal. You have stuff to hit Chandelure on the switch, such as Stone Edge and Earthquake, but they are not even guaranteed OHKOes (8 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 180-214 (68.9 - 81.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and you have to predict well to actually smack it with a coverage move. One on one, Chandlure obviously roasts Avalugg. Specially defensive Sableye takes ~31-37%% from Avalanche on the switch and can proceed to easily burn it. In other words, the two best spinblockers in UU check Avalugg. Avalugg can Toxic Sableye on the switch and switch out, but SR damage will wear it down quickly to a point where it cannot pull off a spin / will constantly have to spam Recover. Trevenant is beatable so long you hit it with Avalanche on the switch for ~50% damage, but it will still burn you with Will-O-Wisp and potentially stall you out. If Trevenant is physically defensive, it has an excellent chance of doing this. Mismagius cannot come in on Avalugg more than once, but can smack it for severe damage with Shadow Ball or simply burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Even if Avalugg somehow manages to kill a spinblocker, it will easily get forced out or revenged by another member of your opponent's team, further hindering its ability to pull off a spin. Avalanche's shitty mechanics (the user can only deal double damage if it has been attacked that turn) severely impact Avalugg's ability to punish spinblockers and the only other physical STAB move it gets barring the dreaded Ice Ball is Ice Fang. Good luck with that.

Second of all, its impressive 95 / 184 physical bulk is somewhat comprised by its awful pure Ice typing, granting it weaknesses to Fire, Steel, Rock, and Fighting-type moves. In other words, the STAB Stone Edges, High Jump Kick's, Iron Heads, and V-Creates flying around in the tier are still going to do massive damage to it, limiting the number of physical threats it can actually check. Though I don't deny that it can defeat the likes of Mienshao and Mega Aerodactyl 1-1, switching in is a whole different matter:

Hide

252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 170-204 (43.2 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 250-296 (63.6 - 75.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also, thanks to its abhorrent special bulk, mixed attackers and lures are gonna give it nightmares:

Hide

4 SpA Mega Absol Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 328-388 (83.4 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 364-429 (92.6 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

These factors severely limit the number of Pokemon that Avalugg can reliably check. Sure, it deals with most Flygon, Absol lacking Fire Blast, Krookodile, Drapion, and Cincinno, but it has such a terrible matchup vs. the vast majority of the top threats in UU that I don't feel it's worth running on defensively-oriented teams, even ones that don't desperately need it to spin.

Finally, that awful Speed stat, in conjunction with its terrible defensive typing and weakness to every hazard ever, leave it spamming Recover more often than not unless it would like an early exit from the battlefield. Walls are not meant to be speedy, bit this is a Pokemon that frankly needs to be faster.

I don't deny that Avalugg has some appealing factors on paper (great physical bulk, reliable recovery, ability to beat Ninjask, etc) but in practice it's an awful Pokemon that shouldn't be on the list.

Avalugg I would say is just a remnant of a metagame long past, when there were hardly any rapid spin support available and people were still understanding what X or Y did along with a much kinder environment.

 

[KM]

Finally updated everything. In addition to Bouff's post, I changed avalugg to off the list and togetic to C. I want some more input on Aboma before I decide where to put it, though. If i missed anything else, please feel free to tell me.

Sorry about the wait, been dealing with some irl shit but yeah =)

 

[RowDog]

IMO M-Abomasnow should not rise above B+. It is a great Pokemon with great merits, but basically any Pokemon who isn't taking a LOT of damage from Ice Shard can easily threaten it due to its low speed and rather shitty defensive typing, and any fire-type screws it over. It's ability can also be a bit of a hindrance to the rest of the team (although it generally effects the opponent just as much) which can be annoying. It has enough merits to definitely warrant itself B+ and the SD set should not be underestimated, but I think it has flaws that are a little too big to warrant it A- or above.

 

[MQJinx]

Abomasnow is strong, however it's easily revenged due to its reliance on Ice Shard for a fast attack outside of Trick Room, and its seven weaknesses make it easy to check, and the Steel-type rise isn't helping it either, I'd say B+ maximum.

Also, Ludicolo could use some discussion, it can sweep late-game in rain, B- or C imo.

 

[xMarth]

Id like to nominate Florges to move up to A- rank. Florges is still a very relevant pokemon in this metagame and is at least on par with Umbreon and Blissey who are also in A- rank. Id say the main advantage it over those two has is being the very best defensive answer to Life Orb Hydreigon while still taking on various other special attackers and being a check to certain fighting types. Every team still carries 1 or 2 decent fairy resistances pretty much only for Florges which shows that it still is highly influential on the tier.

Also I could see Haxorus dropping to A rank. Haxorus seems really great on paper but in practice it just doesnt work out as often as you think it would. It really lacks setup opportunities and has an over reliance on Outrage to break through walls. These key flaws make the difference between Haxorus and other members of A+ rank. If more people started to use SD wallbreaker set then maybe it'd be worth A+ but with how it is now id say A rank is fitting.

 

[Kink]

Id like to nominate Florges to move up to A- rank. Florges is still a very relevant pokemon in this metagame and is at least on par with Umbreon and Blissey who are also in A- rank. Id say the main advantage it over those two has is being the very best defensive answer to Life Orb Hydreigon while still taking on various other special attackers and being a check to certain fighting types. Every team still carries 1 or 2 decent fairy resistances pretty much only for Florges which shows that it still is highly influential on the tier.

Also I could see Haxorus dropping to A rank. Haxorus seems really great on paper but in practice it just doesnt work out as often as you think it would. It really lacks setup opportunities and has an over reliance on Outrage to break through walls. These key flaws make the difference between Haxorus and other members of A+ rank. If more people started to use SD wallbreaker set then maybe it'd be worth A+ but with how it is now id say A rank is fitting.

I agree with st123 completely.

Haxorus doesn't hit important speed tiers and needs to rely on adamant far too much. Weak defenses means it gets 2ko'ed by most most mons, denying switch in. Overall, not A+ material.

Florges is still more useful than people might think. Like Umbreon, I think these mons need to get up to A-.

 

[RyanKoopa]

Hey Kitten you forgot to remove Avalugg from the list.

 

[Hot N Cold]

IMO M-Abomasnow should not rise above B+. It is a great Pokemon with great merits, but basically any Pokemon who isn't taking a LOT of damage from Ice Shard can easily threaten it due to its low speed and rather shitty defensive typing, and any fire-type screws it over. It's ability can also be a bit of a hindrance to the rest of the team (although it generally effects the opponent just as much) which can be annoying. It has enough merits to definitely warrant itself B+ and the SD set should not be underestimated, but I think it has flaws that are a little too big to warrant it A- or above.

That depends on matchup/your team honestly so you can play around, you're not gonna spam Sword Dance if your opponent have like a Lucario at 100% saved lol You're not gonna get supposed to sweep an entire team, just to break and maybe sweep depending on your team support and opponent team on the field.

I think that players as Psychotic, FLCL and IronBullet93 were succesful with Abomasnow-Mega, the thing is I feel Abomasnow-Mega with support deserves A- Rank completely.

About Hail damage, you can make your team around that to take less damage from hail, so SnowWarning can limit your options at teambuilding I agree but always is better for you than for your opponent (unless is using something like mono hail or magic guard lol); so looks like more an advantage than a disvantadge.

 

[jamashawalker]

Im curious as to what set people are running Lucario to make this pokemon S-rank. Or a departure from both Slowbro and Togekiss that now eliminates its 2 biggest counters? So far I've been using the good Ole SD set with great success but idk if enough to put this pokemon in S-rank

 

[Nysyr]

Im curious as to what set people are running Lucario to make this pokemon S-rank. Or a departure from both Slowbro and Togekiss that now eliminates its 2 biggest counters? So far I've been using the good Ole SD set with great success but idk if enough to put this pokemon in S-rank

Agreeing with this notion, I've tried both sets and each have enough common problems that I don't agree with the S ranking. A+ for sure. S? Definitely not. The top S rank 'mon Jirachi revenges both sets flawlessly even when setup to +2, and getting that +2 in such a bulky offense meta is extremely difficult.

Mega Snow should definitely be A-, have you stopped to take a look at how well the meta deals with Ice/Ground combo? Hint, it doesn't. Getting +2 isn't that hard with his great bulk, and his typing lends to more setup than you would think. The only thing stopping him from being better is scald being bullshit.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Scald can be annoying for Mega-Abomasnow because is arguable one of the best water types counters in the tier, burns are not a big deal anyways because this tier is plagued of clerics and healing wish users. Only water which really beats Mega-Abomasnow is Aura Sphere Blastoise-Mega.

 

[Machi]

Mega Snow should definitely be A-, have you stopped to take a look at how well the meta deals with Ice/Ground combo? Hint, it doesn't. Getting +2 isn't that hard with his great bulk, and his typing lends to more setup than you would think. The only thing stopping him from being better is scald being bullshit.

I wouldn't just call scald being his primary issue but rather the dominant forces of the metagame as of late which are primarily steel and fighting types who can easily revenge or just plain block MAboma from setting up altogether, outside of trick room. Right now for reasons similar to Avulgg ice types don't have it easy with the prolific fire/fighting/steel that is running around the tier, and his low speed works against him in that regard.

Edit: If Victini stays around that is another top threat to worry about for MAboma.

 

[dodmen]

Nominating Sharpedo for A-. This thing has amazing late-game cleaning capacity. With a spread of 252 Atk/96SpAtk/164Spe and a Naughty nature, it outspeeds Adamant Mega Aero after a boost. It's surprisingly powerful, capable of dealing 60-70% to Hydreigon (70-80% if it's running a -SpDef nature) as well as OHKOing max HP Jirachi. Provided with the minimum support (maintaining hazards, weakening things on offense like Blastoise and Ampharos), it's scary; provided extra support (Baton Passing boosts, Healing Wish), it can be insanely hard to deal with. It does have its setbacks: it's stopped cold by most bulky waters especially Suicune who's becoming really popular, and it's easily revenge killed by priority from the likes of Lucario and Entei. It has enough flaws that I wouldn't rank it any higher than A-, but after using it quite a bit I can definitely say that it's a really underrated threat right now. The best I can compare it to is Darmanitan because you have to eliminate its hard counters before it can even do anything, but it's capable of hitting from both sides of the field and you can't really revenge it with faster scarfers (barring Hydreigon at full HP).

I don't have many good replays that really show Sharpedo's capacity but I'll post them if I come across them.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-170136568

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-170807475

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I agree with moving Florges to A- Rank. It is still definitely the best Fairy-type in the tier (at least until Sylveon drops, won't be long lol), and is a very good cleric. It can keep its team alive just like Umbreon and Blissey, and is also by far the best answer to Hydreigon in the tier, and its stupid special bulk combined with its great typing (which gives it some nice physical resists too) makes it quite a good wall, and Wish+Aromatherapy means it stays alive for long and also provides nice support to its team. It walls quite a few Pokemon such as Fighting-types (not Lucario, mind you), Hydreigon, and many others thanks to its bulk. It still packs solid offensive presence for a wall too. It still has flaws like being one-dimensional and being somewhat easy to wear down, but it's still a very useful Pokemon overall.

I wouldn't mind if Haxorus gets dropped to A Rank. While it is the best physical Dragon-type in the tier and very threatening, Haxorus has enormous trouble setting up from my experience. It is not that bulky, so setup opportunities for it are a bit scarce. It is also a bit slow, so without a Dragon Dance boost it is kind of mediocre against faster teams, and Swords Dance sets are definitely meh against offense. Being one point slower than its fellow Hydreigon also kinda sucks. Even though it does excel against stall, locking yourself into Outrage is kind of bad. It's a great Pokemon, but not quite A+ worthy imo.

However, with those out of the way, I would like to suggest that Krookodile be moved up to A+ Rank. Krookodile is a fantastic Pokemon in UU atm, and it's not hard to see why. Its Scarf Moxie set is very decent right now, being a decent late-game cleaner with Moxie and good STAB coverage, and the snowball effect makes it all the more deadly in the late-game. It has decent utility too with Knock Off and Pursuit. Its CB set with Intimidate is also very good, being able to weaken a few physical attackers and provide immediate power with its STABs, plus Stone Edge or Superpower, making it a decent wallbreaker with a bit of defensive utility. Defensive Krookodile isn't too shabby either, as with Intimidate and max Defense investment it is quite bulky, and is a reliable SR setter: Taunt is pretty cool too. It also packs solid offensive presence for a defensive threat. Its Speed tier is also kind of fun to revenge Lucario with, and its typing gives it a decent match-up against a lot of threats. Definitely a fantastic quality Pokemon right now and deserves to be A+ imo.

Just some thoughts.

 

[YABO]

I would like to suggest that Whimsicott be moved up to B+ rank. In the current metagame, certain threats are reigning supreme as evidenced by both usage statistics and this viability thread. A recurring trend is that bulky Water-types, strong Fighting-types, and scary Dark-types are reigning supreme alongside the ever present fire spam that we all know and love.

Whimsicott's STAB combination provide it with both a great set of resistances and a fantastic offensive presence. Its poor bulk is made up for by these aforementioned resistances and allow it to function as a good offensive check to Hydreigon, one of the most popular pokemon in the tier. Whimsicott's mediocre base 77 Special Attack stat can be bolstered with the use of a Life Orb or Choice Specs to allow it to nab 2HKO's or OHKO's on a plethora of common pokemon in UU. A few of these include Mega Ampharos, Mega Blastoise, Lucario, Absol, Crobat (specs psychic), Mienshao, Haxorus, Suicune, Swampert, etc.

In additon, Whimsicott has a myriad of viable support options it can use to bolster the strength of its teammates. Whimsicott can use Memento and Encore to allow for easy set up opportunities; Tailwind to provide a 3 turn energy rush for his team; or Stun Spore to bring the opponent down a notch. All of these receive the benefit of Prankster as well, which ensures that Whimsicott will always use these moves first.

However, although Whimsicott certainly has a valuable place in the metagame right now, it suffers from an inability to hit Steel-types, particularly Jirachi. Whimsicott coming onto the field grants Jirachi and other pesky Steels a free switch every time. Furthermore, its mediocre bulk is still lackluster and offensive variants find themselves getting worn down very quickly in conjunction with Life Orb recoil.

Whimsicott's niche in this metagame is similar to that of Virizion in that it's a Grass-type. A metagame run by bulky Water-types and powerful Dark and Fighting-types allow pokemon like Virizion and Whimsicott to thrive. For this and the reasons listed above I contend that Whimsicott should be moved from B to B+ rank

edit: formatting

 

[Sam]

I'll post full reasoning when I have time, but I'd like to nominate Mienshao to S. I think you could argue it's the best mon in the tier right now, and it's almost a must-run on balance.