XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[SSJ]

Or maybe you need a set-up sweeper that checks the shit out of hydreigon and fighting types? Slurpuff has a clearly defined niche in teambuilding and is very usable in uu.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-18764
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-18764

Here's a couple replays of our co-tier leader sweeping chimpact with teams that aren't necessarily designed around slurpuff sweeps - they are complete teams which include slurpuff because its niche is useful to the team.

Just because some people had success with a Pokemon doesn't mean that that Pokemon is good, or in this case, a good Pokemon to use in the meta. I'm not saying slurpuff isn't a good poke to use in the meta. I'm just saying that it needs team support except on very rare occasions in which it can set up because of a misplay by the opponent.
And by the way, both replays are of the same battle.

 

[TrulyDevious]

Or maybe you need a set-up sweeper that checks the shit out of hydreigon and fighting types? Slurpuff has a clearly defined niche in teambuilding and is very usable in uu.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-18764
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-18764

Here's a couple replays of our co-tier leader sweeping chimpact with teams that aren't necessarily designed around slurpuff sweeps - they are complete teams which include slurpuff because its niche is useful to the team.

With the loss of our strongest mons, every damn team is bulky offense or stall, and this tiers best mons don't give any sort of fuck to Slurpuff; we got Meggron, Alomo, Suicune, Jirachi and they're everywhere, plus Slurpuff is frail and is rendered near useless by offensive pressure; its greatest partner Dugtrio is shat on by Hydreigon, Krookodile and the fist three I've mentioned, plus it gets trucked by bulky Waters. I needs extensive team support, so it won't get very high on the ranking imo.

 

[realiti]

Personally I think you guys are underestimating about Slurpuff way too much and giving kind of bad points. You really don't need to build an entire team around Slurpuff. All you really need is something to take care of its steel type counters. Personally for me Slurpuff is a very fun Pokemon to use. While its use may be limited in the beginning as it is quite weak, it is quite a fearsome sweeper when it is alowed a chance to sweep. Sometimes Slurpuff is your win condition even due to Unburden and its amazing coverage with CM or its insane power with BD. All I'm trying to say is that people are getting he wrong idea about Slurpuff and should actually use it. Of course Slurpuff still has some flaws but it is not that bad so I would move it to B-

 

[Patrick1088]

Just because some people had success with a Pokemon doesn't mean that that Pokemon is good, or in this case, a good Pokemon to use in the meta. I'm not saying slurpuff isn't a good poke to use in the meta. I'm just saying that it needs team support except on very rare occasions in which it can set up because of a misplay by the opponent.
And by the way, both replays are of the same battle.

Setting up on hydreigon isnt that hard, which happens to be one of the best scarfers in the tier. Fighting, dark and dragon are pretty common in the tier. it does have 82/86/75 defenses, which isnt bad compared to other sweepers like infernape (76/71/71) and mega absol (65/60/60). Throw in an immunity to dragon and thr ability to max out attack in 1 turn and double its speed. It only needs 1 moment to start tearing through teams. Cm sets catch the opponent off guard as they switch in the usual check in metagross and mega aggron.

 

[TrulyDevious]

Setting up on hydreigon isnt that hard, which happens to be one of the best scarfers in the tier. Fighting, dark and dragon are pretty common in the tier. it does have 82/86/75 defenses, which isnt bad compared to other sweepers like infernape (76/71/71) and mega absol (65/60/60). Throw in an immunity to dragon and thr ability to max out attack in 1 turn and double its speed. It only needs 1 moment to start tearing through teams. Cm sets catch the opponent off guard as they switch in the usual check in metagross and mega aggron.

About the defense I've been ranting about the whole time, everybody runs Bullet Punch, mons that usually kneel to CCandy like Luke, Champ, and Gross. Also, RPggron is a fat bitch.

 

[RowDog]

Ok guys, I think you seem to be misinterpreting what Billtodamax is trying to say. It does have a niche that is very usable in UU and for good reasons.
Should it be high on the viability rating? No, because it needs a few conditions and a bit of support in order to perform its role.
Is it a bad Pokemon? No, under the right circumstances and given the right support can be an incredibly potent sweeper with plenty to offer when played right.

And SSJ, you seriously underrate its ability to set up on very prominent UU threats. Is it stopped by quite a few common UU sets? Yes (though CM and BD will have almost completely different checks). But the things which it uses and abuses are just as prominent.

All in all, no it shouldn't move up, but you shouldn't completely underestimate the cupcake.

EDITL: TrulyDevious wtf? No where near "everybody" runs Bullet Punch. Even a lot of Lucarios don't run Bullet Punch, and Machamp, Metagross and M-Aggron really aren't that common.

 

[realiti]

About the defense I've been ranting about the whole time, everybody runs Bullet Punch, mons that usually kneel to CCandy like Luke, Champ, and Gross. Also, RPggron is a fat bitch.

We're not saying Slurpuff is the best mon in the tier. Not even close. All we are saying is that Slurpuff needs a little help achieving its goal and that with team support it is a fearsome sweeper. Is B- too much to ask for?

 

[Patrick1088]

With the loss of our strongest mons, every damn team is bulky offense or stall, and this tiers best mons don't give any sort of fuck to Slurpuff; we got Meggron, Alomo, Suicune, Jirachi and they're everywhere, plus Slurpuff is frail and is rendered near useless by offensive pressure; its greatest partner Dugtrio is shat on by Hydreigon, Krookodile and the fist three I've mentioned, plus it gets trucked by bulky Waters. I needs extensive team support, so it won't get very high on the ranking imo.

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 304-358 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 387-456 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 232-274 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

He 2hko every poke you just mentioned. the ability to go physical or special is what makes it so dangerous (ala lucario and infernape). Thr unpredictability and ease of setup coupled with key resists and immunity should warrant at least a B- rank. You really cant say its tied with Avalugg and mega banette, which are outclassed completely. You cannot say that puff is outclassed since no other sweeper can max out its attack and double its speed in 1 turn or have the option to go physical or special.

 

[KM]

Hello.

Weighing in on this slurpuff nonsense because there's a fair bit of misrepresentation on both sides.

1. Just because a Pokemon is in C rank does not mean it is the same viability as everything else in c rank. The C rank is designed to be an all-encompassing pool of decent viability, so "slurpuff is better than x and x is c so slurpuff is b-" is a really horrible argument, and one that leads to a lot of inflation.

2. Portraying the amount of team support needed to make Slurpuff work as anything less than large is rather silly. Steel-types are by no means its only counter - much of the tier's priority does a hefty chunk to it, making full sweeps nigh impossible. Moreover, by using a pokemon who depends on being full health when it sets up, you lose a massive amount of defensive capabilities. Unlike Shedinja, who can come in multiple times a match against the things it walls, it's just not usually a good idea to bring Slurpuff in against a Hydreigon when they have a Slurpuff counter at full health still. This forces you to run a secondary counter, which weakens your team and puts a lot more pressure on it in general. The replay that bill showed is important because it shows exactly how not to play against a slurpuff. By leaving his Jirachi in to take a hit early game, Chimpact immediately opens up the field for slurpuff to sweep. This is a perfect-case scenario for the slurpuff user, but it isn't 100% recreatable, nor should we be ranking based on people's inability to recognize threats.

I see Slurpuff as very similar to Shedinja. They both require extensive team support (Shedinja moreso), but Shedinja can come in multiple times throughout the game and deal damage, while Slurpuff is really a one-trick pony (fine, two-trick, stupid CM). Both pokemon have been used successfully by high-ladder players to get high on the ladder. But, they're still enormously niche, very counterable, and require so much support (and provide so very little) that they just aren't any better than C rank.

 

[SSJ]

Ok guys, I think you seem to be misinterpreting what Billtodamax is trying to say. It does have a niche that is very usable in UU and for good reasons.
Should it be high on the viability rating? No, because it needs a few conditions and a bit of support in order to perform its role.
Is it a bad Pokemon? No, under the right circumstances and given the right support can be an incredibly potent sweeper with plenty to offer when played right.

And SSJ, you seriously underrate its ability to set up on very prominent UU threats. Is it stopped by quite a few common UU sets? Yes (though CM and BD will have almost completely different checks). But the things which it uses and abuses are just as prominent.

All in all, no it shouldn't move up, but you shouldn't completely underestimate the cupcake.

EDITL: TrulyDevious wtf? No where near "everybody" runs Bullet Punch. Even a lot of Lucarios don't run Bullet Punch, and Machamp, Metagross and M-Aggron really aren't that common.

Not quite a few mons, but a lot of them. Jirachi is now common on most teams and someone or the other will have a steel type on their team be it lucario, metagross or aggron-M. The CM set especially is really hard to pull off a sweep with and even if it gets to +6 with BD, metagross's bullet punch is enough to finish it off after the self inflicted damage from belly drum. It can't do anything against mega aggron and will just end up either switching out or just dying to a heavy slam.
And also, bullet punch is more common then you think because most lucarios run it and no one in their right minds would run a metagross set without bullet punch.

Hello.

Weighing in on this slurpuff nonsense because there's a fair bit of misrepresentation on both sides.

1. Just because a Pokemon is in C rank does not mean it is the same viability as everything else in c rank. The C rank is designed to be an all-encompassing pool of decent viability, so "slurpuff is better than x and x is c so slurpuff is b-" is a really horrible argument, and one that leads to a lot of inflation.

2. Portraying the amount of team support needed to make Slurpuff work as anything less than large is rather silly. Steel-types are by no means its only counter - much of the tier's priority does a hefty chunk to it, making full sweeps nigh impossible. Moreover, by using a pokemon who depends on being full health when it sets up, you lose a massive amount of defensive capabilities. Unlike Shedinja, who can come in multiple times a match against the things it walls, it's just not usually a good idea to bring Slurpuff in against a Hydreigon when they have a Slurpuff counter at full health still. This forces you to run a secondary counter, which weakens your team and puts a lot more pressure on it in general. The replay that bill showed is important because it shows exactly how not to play against a slurpuff. By leaving his Jirachi in to take a hit early game, Chimpact immediately opens up the field for slurpuff to sweep. This is a perfect-case scenario for the slurpuff user, but it isn't 100% recreatable, nor should we be ranking based on people's inability to recognize threats.

I see Slurpuff as very similar to Shedinja. They both require extensive team support (Shedinja moreso), but Shedinja can come in multiple times throughout the game and deal damage, while Slurpuff is really a one-trick pony (fine, two-trick, stupid CM). Both pokemon have been used successfully by high-ladder players to get high on the ladder. But, they're still enormously niche, very counterable, and require so much support (and provide so very little) that they just aren't any better than C rank.

I'm glad it's not moving up. It didn't deserve to go higher than C rank but I don't know if it deserved to go any lower.

 

[Patrick1088]

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are good in the UU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. They can all still function very well given the right team support, but they have numerous flaws that minimize their impact on the tier.

Didnt we all make the argument that he puff needs the right team support to sweep, but can sweep on its own if given the opportunity? The only other sweeper that can double its speed and attack in one move is cloyster, which is also B- rank. But, doublade and fletch are so niche and probably have a harder time setting up initially, but thdy too are B- and they still get maimed by some of the main counters that Slurpuff handles.

Im not going to harp any longer on it since this obvipusly an uphill battle.

 

[Sleepless]

I would like to make a nomination/support a previously nominated suggestion :

Granbull from B+ to B rank : Granbull is amazing to take on the likes of Krookodile, Absol, Haxorus, most Hydreigon, Mienshao, Machamp and is a great asset to Stall or more defensive teams. The departure of it's greatest 'mon to counter in Heracross did leave a mark on it's viability but I think it's the rise of both Cobalion and Lucario which really hampers with Granbull. The former have been increasing in popularity and fearing the Iron Head, this is a less seen before fighting type which Granbull wants to get away from. However it's mainly the rise in popularity of Lucario, even from before, as it is now S rank and more than other the fact it doesn't carry Crunch no more, which previously Granbull could counter relaibly. Now, all of Iron Tail/Bullet Punch/Eq threaten to 2hko if not flat out 1hko Granbull even after the intimidate while Granbull fails to 1hko without CC's drops. The most Lucario previously could do to Granbull was either CC or Extremespeed while Granbull could 1hko through the drops with Play Rough + LO recoil or 2hko while sponging the Espeeds.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 538-634 (140.1 - 165.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 218-257 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 179-212 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[dodmen]

One thing I'd like to see rise from C is Feraligatr. It works as a solid late game cleaner, and actually has a surprising amount of bulk to set up on stuff (it can live hits from Scarf Mienshao and Scarf Hydreigon after rocks). It's a bit outclassed but I think Feraligatr's SD set is enough to put it in B- at the very least, though B seems more appropriate. The combination of its bulk and the fact that it gets priority makes it really scary once you remove its checks. The set I've used is SD/Waterfall/Aqua Jet/Frustration, though Ice Punch or Superpower or anything you want can go in the last slot. I also used Splash Plate, although Life Orb can be used for more overall power and to get you into Torrent range kind of reliably; however, this can often cut your sweep short.

Replays of Feraligatr

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165946486

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165577074

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165570101

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165511891

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-165911053

TL;DW:
The opposing Feraligatr used Aqua Jet!
It's not very effective... Sharpedo lost 100% of its health!

I still stand by this nomination. If anyone else has experience with Gatr or has any input whatsoever it'd be much appreciated if you'd share. I'd really like to see this mon move up because it's way too good for just C rank.

I agree with Meru about Krookodile, I've used all of Choice Band, Life Orb, and support recently and this Pokemon has just gotten so good. My favorite set is actually an offensive Taunt + SR set. Krook checks a lot of Pokemon that are amazing in the metagame right now: Jirachi, Nidos, Crobat, Chandelure, and Swords Dance Lucario, among others. I'm all for moving this to A+.

I'd also like to see Flygon move to higher than B now that Togekiss is gone. Its got that near-perfect dual stab and checks a lot of common threats due to its speed and typing, while also having usable bulk. It's great for a late game cleaner that's fast enough to outspeed Hydreigon. It's Banded set is also surprisingly powerful, 2HKOing Swampert for example. I could see it in B+ easily, possibly even A- but that's a bit of a stretch.

Quick edit: Granbull's defensive set isn't its only one. It's got a decent offensive set and has a niche as being basically the only physically offensive fairy. It's got a strong 120 base attack right off the bat unlike Slurpuff and the combination of STAB Play Rough and EQ is really good coverage, hitting everything but Bronzong and Weezing neutrally I believe. And offensive sets can still check (not counter!) almost everything that defensive Granbull does due to its typing and Intimidate. I could see a set of three attacks+T-wave or other support moves be decent. I'm not trying to say that it should be a certain rank because of this, I'm just trying to say that people should consider things besides its defensive set.

 

[President Shinra]

I've used Gatr quite a bit, and I'd second that it should move up from C, but not much higher. Simply because, bulky waters are everywhere, and it has no way to beat them. However, the fact remains that it can beat many frailer things easily with Aqua Jet and can destroy at +2. So I'd say B-.

 

[KM]

Gatr has been moved to B- rank =)

I'm glad you brought up Fletchinder and Doublade in comparison to Slurpuff (although I don't think it's the best comparison with Doublade, it's really not as much of a sweeper). Fletch and Doublade have significant value as defensive pokemon - access to support moves or great typing allows them to switch in on certain threats in a way that Slurpuff just can't do - this is its main downfall. You need to get slurpuff in on something it walls, and it has no defensive ability whatsoever - not because it can't take hits, but because it needs to be at high HP to even set up. Neither Fletchinder nor Doublade need to be built around in order to make a viable team with them - they both contribute stuff in their own right. Yes, they require extensive team support, but that's why they're not higher.

 

[Arch]

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are good in the UU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. They can all still function very well given the right team support, but they have numerous flaws that minimize their impact on the tier.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have small niches in the UU metagame, but have numerous notable flaws that prevent them from being effective the majority of the time. Pokemon in the C tier require extensive support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon, or their niches aren't all too useful for the current metagame.

Slurpuff has a niche of being a one shot, +6 belly drum sweeper with unburden. It's CM set, while viable, is not the set that's keeping it C rank. It has a plethora of flaws that inarguably make it completely ineffective a majority of the time. Even if it does manage a belly drum, it's still highly susceptible to priority and several of the tiers most common mons. It requires a lot of support to preserve its sweeping potential because of the many tightropes it walks. While nothing else can do exactly what Slurpuff does, it still faces competition with every other fast sweeper / attacker that isn't in constant fear of taking any sort of hit or losing its one chance of sweeping; pokemon that can properly sweep with much less hassle, can potentially come in multiple times throughout the game, and don't punish you nearly as hard if a mistake is made on your part. Considering the fact Slurpuff has few safe switch ins, almost nothing from A- and up, as well as issues with many common pokemon being able to switch into it the turn it belly drums and beat it, it's safe to say Slurpuff perfectly encapsulates the definition of a C rank mon over a B rank mon.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Shaymin to A+

• Increase in Bulky Water usage = Better time for Shaymin
• Although 4MSS, Seed Flare, Earth Power, and Dazzling Gleam deals with good portion of relevant metagame, making it hard to switch into
• Greatly benefits from Tini + Toge bans
• Great with children. Can cook Kraft Macaroni dinners.
• Healing Wish works wonders with Suicune, who functions as both mid-game wall and late-game sweeper. Tank shit in beginning, Healing Wish completely heals you and your opponents cry.

Avalugg to Removed

• Despite titanic Defenses, typing is horrible and SR weak, significantly skewing its tankiness.
• Heavily outclassed by a lot of Rapid Spinners in the tier.
• Increase in Fighting Spam isn't good for Avalugg (esp. Special Lucario)
  
• Has no way to deal with SpinBlockers (Sableye burns, Froslass sets up infinitely, Chandy melts it)
• Just all around not that great in this iteration of the metagame.
• Ironically hot coffee potentially melts this coffee table.

 

[RyanKoopa]

I'd like to nominate Delphox for C rank. Once outclassed entirely by Victini, Victini's banning has finally given it a niche in UU as the only Fire/Psychic type in the tier. One only needs to look at this high-level replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-167474584 to see how Delphox works quite well in the current metagame.

 

[SSJ]

I'd like to nominate Delphox for C rank. Once outclassed entirely by Victini, Victini's banning has finally given it a niche in UU as the only Fire/Psychic type in the tier. One only needs to look at this high-level replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-167474584 to see how Delphox works quite well in the current metagame.

All delphox did was kill a nidoking and an empoleon(who was at low health) which doesn't look like a sweep to me. There is a reason it is C rank.

 

[Machi]

I'd like to nominate Delphox for C rank. Once outclassed entirely by Victini, Victini's banning has finally given it a niche in UU as the only Fire/Psychic type in the tier. One only needs to look at this high-level replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-167474584 to see how Delphox works quite well in the current metagame.

I believe Meru already recommended Delphox for C.

 

[RyanKoopa]

All delphox did was kill a nidoking and an empoleon(who was at low health) which doesn't look like a sweep to me. There is a reason it is C rank.

Oh it definitely shouldn't go beyond C rank for obvious reasons. But right now it's unranked, while I think It belongs in C Rank.

Machi: Oh yeah that's right. Sorry I forgot. Well then I second Meru's nomination

 

[SSJ]

Oh it definitely shouldn't go beyond C rank for obvious reasons. But right now it's unranked, while I think It belongs in C Rank.

Machi: Oh yeah that's right. Sorry I forgot. Well then I second Meru's nomination

Well, if it is unranked, I could see it moving up to C rank.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Delphox never really faced competition from Victini as they take on different roles even as special attackers. Victini is always a choiced nuke spamming extremely high BP STABs and U-turn for scouting with all-around bulk to switch into attacks. Not to mention Victini is mostly physical. Delphox is a fast, boosting special attacker that can double as a win-condition. It faces more competition from its fellow special boosting Fire types like Houndoom and Chandelure, who have better offensive secondary STABs as well as higher firepower output. However, Delphox's access to Grass Knot (Chandelure is too Sub-dependent to run Energy Ball) and STAB Psyshock to break bulky waters and Blissey respectively with just 1 CM boost separates it from its fellow boosting fire types.

 

[Patrick1088]

I'm not entirely sold on Delphox tbh. Victini was just a nuke which was versatile (closest thing in the current meta is probably Infernape/Lucario due to versatility). Delphox has pretty solid counters and I think is pretty much outclassed by Mega Houndoom, which supports better typing, a fantastic ability before mega evolving in Flash Fire, and can go mixed pretty easily. Delphox didn't do much in that replay above besides attack weakened pokes.

I wish the little witch had something else going for her, but it kind of is what it is at this point :-(

 

[Kink]

Have to agree with Delphox's nomination to C-rank.

Specs variant does some crazy damage once blaze kicks in. Overheat + blaze does more than V-create damage. With 104 speed, this is an interesting niche in the current meta. Delphox handles some pretty interesting 1 on 1 situations as well... if both suicune and delphox remain, delphox with grass knot (which is standard) will win. These two points only scratch the surface of its viability.

If you guys require proof of my findings:
(a) I'm winning research week by abusing Delphox
(b) I have over 30 replays found here:

Very Low-Ladder Replays 1000-1199

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166588690
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166589770
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166592799
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166599141
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166600813

Low-Ladder Replays 1200-1349

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166607277
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166675576
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166677833
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166679218
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166680158
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166692072

Mid-Ladder Replays 1350-1499

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166807866
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166823645
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166831195
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166847687
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166849660
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166869014

Upper-Ladder Replays 1500-1649

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166871088
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-166995032

2.0 Upper-Ladder Replays 1500-1649

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-167437768
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-167458166
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-167466361
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-167474584
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-167476919
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-167480060

Argument made.