Suicide Blitz (Non-Damage Suicide Moves Discussion)

Sylver

Right, I've been using a few of these "lol, wtf, are you serious" moves that have worked surprisingly well. And now that I've had a few debates with Ikaeru, I think I should start this thread; these moves need discussion.

The moves in discussion are ghost-type Curse, Memento Healing Wish and Lunar Dance. Unfortunately, I have very little experience in the last two, aside from seeing it as a "get a 2nd chance, don't mess up this time" type of move. The first two...

The most common users of ghost-type Curse are Gengar and Dusknoir. As most battlers know, this curse depletes a quarter of an opponent's HP each turn while you sacrifice half your maximum health. These would work against the likes of a strong wall like Blissey, and Dusknoir in particular would benefit from Curse and Pain Split.

Memento is the move I'm most familiar with, as either Sylver on Wifi or Kokirin on Shoddy. Memento definitely cripples sweepers, halving both thier attack and special attack. Since quite a few people have been starting to run Memento Jumpluff, I might as well post my idea that I've been using from almost the start of Shoddy...

Code ATA Jumpluff~Hot Rock
Chlorophyll ability
Timid Nature, 188def/68spdef/252spd
Sleep Powder
Sunny Day
Reflect
Memento

Jumpluff sleeps the counter switch, and sets up Sunny Day to outspeed scarfers. If possible, she then sets up reflect (or reflects first if there's Stealth Rock still up), and finally initializes "Code Ashes to Ashes" on anything not named Metagross or Reg...I'm pretty sure people know what pokemon follows...(Ok, fine, it's a Charizard)...I wonder if Memento should at least get a mention on the Jumpluff analysis...

Anyway, this metagame emphasizes the importance of free switch-ins, causing either brutal damage, or equally brutal setups. Some battlers might even sacrifice for that free switch-in. Pokemon with these suicide moves make that ultimate sacrifice...and it depends on the trainer what the results of thier gamble pay off as...
 
I can only see any of these strategies working in one way: in conjunction with a trapper.

For Memento you'd want Dugtrio or Trapinch (Trick Room).

I could also see you using it as a window to set up something like Garchomp or Dragonite.

The only way I see Curse Working:

Dusknoir @ Leftovers:
252 HP/108 Def/148 SDef Impish.
~ Mean Look
~ Curse
~ Pain Split
~ Sub/Protect/filler attack

Trap, Curse, Split, Protect. Use for pwning Bloss and co.
 
[23:09:34] <Surgo> more shit needs to be able to learn memento
[23:10:00] <MoP> More people need to get balls and use Healing Wish
[23:10:20] <Surgo> I don't think I will ever use that move
[23:10:31] <Surgo> far too situational
[23:11:18] <MoP> I unno, it could be interesting if your team is based absolutely on one sweeper
[23:11:44] <MoP> But then again Memento is also situational as it's trying to set something up =[
[23:12:00] <Surgo> yeah but there's a big difference
[23:12:08] <Surgo> You get to plan ahead of time how you use memento
[23:12:14] <Surgo> You get the plan on using healing wish handed to you
[23:12:36] <Surgo> one is proactive, the other is not
[23:13:30] <MoP> Eh but if either sweeper fail, we're all back at the same step
[23:13:36] <MoP> A lost Poke for no cause!
[23:14:39] <Surgo> does healing wish cause the turn to conclude
[23:14:43] <Surgo> or do you switch in before the turn ends
[23:15:02] <MoP> Hell if I know I never had the balls to use it =]
[23:15:15] <Surgo> if you have to switch before the turn ends...that's horrible
[23:15:31] <MoP> I think most Healing Wish users are slow..but the main problem is..
[23:15:37] <MoP> Anyone good that can use HW can do better
[23:15:41] <MoP> Example: Blissey
[23:16:18] <Surgo> celebi, gardevoir, mesprit maybe!
 
Well, I'm not the best debater here, but that's just my two bits. Dugtrio/Trapinch could work, but at best it's a 1for1 trade. You'd almost need a huge setupper like a Belly Drummer or at least a super strong Sword/Dragon Dancer or Nasty Plotter to make the risk anything near worthwhile. As I said, it's a gamble, and it's not a 6DD Gyarados-in-a-can. I just thought it deserves some discussion..

I like that Dusknoir set though. Something like that was on the Dusclops analysis for ADV, IIRC...

I don't know about Healing Wish, but Memento does not cause the turn to end. It's good that the opponent would strike at nothingness, but not so good if it stat-ups or substitutes...At best, it sets up a huge problem, but at worst, it wastes at least one cool pokemon, and causes another (the memento "recipient") a ton of problems...it's a gamble.
 
Healing Wish is esentially the same effect as Lunar Dance, and you brought up Lunar Dance, so that's why Healing Wish is mentioned!
 
Healing Wish isn't really the exact same as Lunar Dance. Actually, it's more along the lines of comparing Destiny Bond with Explosion...not as extreme, but a valid comparison, correct?

Lunar dance and Healing Wish, although they hopefully achieve the same goal, have completely different circumstances and strategies for using those moves.

Anyway, to clarify, I said I didn't know whether Healing Wish causes the turn to end or not. Hopefully that's cleared up.
 
How are they not the same? Healing Wish and Lunar Dance both kill the user, restores HP and status to the incoming Poke, except Lunar Dance restores PP...??
 
Does it now? I've been under the impression that Healing Wish is more like a Grudge/Destiny Bond move where the effects activate if the user faints. I don't have the time to check this currently, so if you're right, I'll edit the list to include Healing Wish.
 
I just tested this and Healing Wish kills you, then does it's thing.

Doesn't work like Destiny Bond, Serebii should take out that "if", eh?
 
I always prefered destiny bond instead of memento but it lets you set up sometimes. First of all if you have 2 pokemon and the opponent has 1 memento rocks unless opponent doesnt rely on attack which you can taunt afterwards. The downside is that you lose your pokemon but very situational. For curse if you can survive enough mean look baton pass and curse should crush the opponent where the other member might help with lunar dance.
 
Well mixed with Stealth Rock, using Memento on the right kind of opponent could work out to be more efficient than something like Destiny Bond.
 
Recently (within the last 24-hours) I've become fond of expert-band cursing gengar. It sweeps what's not a wall, and can do significant damage to walls, either killing an opposing wall (giving you a more free sweep, not being walled anymore...) or forcing them to switch, giving you a free turn, either to set-up, or to sweep some more with gengar, assuming it hasn't gone down yet. I find curse to be a viable subsitute for hypnosis, as it can be just as deadly, if not more so... as I've honestly never once seen a "cursetalking" pokemon before. It's not a real status, so heracross can't get a free power boost, and if it's a blissey they're bringing out, I doubt she'd appreciate getting cut down to nothing.

This strategy is usable for both damaging the opponent thoroughly, taking out walls, etc, AND setting up your own guy. Imagine a cresselia coming into your gengar, and you curse-sacrafice yourself. Bring in, say, a belly-zard that uses a subsitute on turn 1, and cress is in a very rough situation. She can either: try to charge-beam you, taking a fourth of her hitpoints with her... B: switch out, giving you a free sub/belly drum/salac, or C: do something totally random like lunar-dance. Either way, you're in a winning position.
 
I used to use Healing Wish on my Blissey before my last team rework. I'd use it to bring Ninjask back for a second shot at setting up.

As a note on Healing Wish/Lunar dance: They work on the next Pokémon that comes in without dying from spikes/SR, and will cure you from the effects of Toxic Spikes. That means that if you have SR and Toxic Spikes on your field and use Healing Wish and send out ninjask at 1HP, it will die instantly; Your field will be empty for the rest of the turn (yeehaw), and whatever comes in at the end of the turn will take SR damage, toxic spikes poison, then be fully healed and cured of the poison.
 
Boa1891 said:
I used to use Healing Wish on my Blissey before my last team rework. I'd use it to bring Ninjask back for a second shot at setting up.

As a note on Healing Wish/Lunar dance: They work on the next Pokémon that comes in without dying from spikes/SR, and will cure you from the effects of Toxic Spikes. That means that if you have SR and Toxic Spikes on your field and use Healing Wish and send out ninjask at 1HP, it will die instantly; Your field will be empty for the rest of the turn (yeehaw), and whatever comes in at the end of the turn will take SR damage, toxic spikes poison, then be fully healed and cured of the poison.
Click to expand...

So was Surgo's question answered? i.e., does Healing Wish leave your field empty for the rest of the turn, and then you send out a new pokemon to start the next turn?

I guess I didn't think about that in normal battles too. If your pokemon faints, and you send out another one, does it take stealth rock damage (and possibly die leaving your field empty)?
 
I've been thinking about Healing Wish Lopunny recently. Screw over something like Salamence by giving it Lagging Tail, maybe cause a little more disturbance to your opponents team (Toxic?), then when your worn down use Healing Wish and pass to something that needs to be healed. The best thing about Lopunny is that it actually has the speed to pull Healing Wish off; 105 base is enough to beat the majority of OU Pokemon.

If Healing Wish does indeed end the turn, I can definitely see myself using Lopunny in the future.
 
Okay, to verify in case anyone didn't know: I just checked Healing Wish (I guess Lunar Dance works the same way plus restoring PP), and you unfortunately immediately send out the replacement pokemon, which can then be hit by enemies after being healed.
 
Ikaeru said:
"cursetalking" pokemon before. It's not a real status, so heracross can't get a free power boost, and if it's a blissey they're bringing out, I doubt she'd appreciate getting cut down to nothing.
Click to expand...

This actually seems like a really awesome idea. What if you gave Dusknoir rest, sleep talk, curse, and mean look? That could be a real bitch. You just have to be careful not to use it on something that's going to set up on you.
 
I used a Mean Look/Curse Dusclops in Advance, and to me in was one of those "looks good on paper, sucks in the game" ideas. The problem is, if you do it once, your opponent then knows that your Dusknoir has no real attacking moves, and switches in something with taunt. You mean look it on the switch, it taunts you so you cant do anything else, and then Gyarados get a free Dragon Dance. Its far too risky and situational than a standard, reliable Dusknoir.

On another topic, Memento is a cool move to set up a set up to sweep. If you Memento an attacker, you can then switch in your own Garchomp (example) and fire off a free Swords Dance and begin to Sweep from there. Obviously this is going to work best later in the game.

And for Healing Wish/Lunar Dance, I tried to use Lunar Dance on my Cress, and found it very, very situational. If you run a team that relies heavily on one specific sweeper (example, a Sandstorm team with a Dragon Dancing T-Tar as the only "true" sweeper), it can give you a second attempt to finnish the job.
 
I liked using Curse Banette in Adv UU to set up Belly Drum Azumarill sweeps. Your opponent can either let their pokemon die to an attack from Azumarill combined with 25% HP loss, or just switch. Since most people just switch......
 
Hmm. Memento is interesting, but it really doesn't sound that great. I guess I'd have to fight against it to really see the annoyance.

Also, I guess I'm the only one to catch the SRW reference. <_<
 
Familiar Trainer said:
I've been thinking about Healing Wish Lopunny recently. Screw over something like Salamence by giving it Lagging Tail, maybe cause a little more disturbance to your opponents team (Toxic?), then when your worn down use Healing Wish and pass to something that needs to be healed. The best thing about Lopunny is that it actually has the speed to pull Healing Wish off; 105 base is enough to beat the majority of OU Pokemon.

If Healing Wish does indeed end the turn, I can definitely see myself using Lopunny in the future.
Click to expand...

mr mime can do that sort of, though it only has 40 base hp 65 base def but a cool 120 spdef, so i spose you can make it set up a reflect, trick lagging tail then healing wish to something
 
CZ said:
I used a Mean Look/Curse Dusclops in Advance, and to me in was one of those "looks good on paper, sucks in the game" ideas. The problem is, if you do it once, your opponent then knows that your Dusknoir has no real attacking moves, and switches in something with taunt. You mean look it on the switch, it taunts you so you cant do anything else, and then Gyarados get a free Dragon Dance. Its far too risky and situational than a standard, reliable Dusknoir.
Click to expand...

Ah, I get it. "One OU threat can stop it, it sucks."
If your foe switches a popular taunter into something they know has no attacks, you KNOW it's going to taunt. It's like common sense. Then you switch to something that take the taunt, and they taunt away, leaving themselves open for, in your example, let's say a fast STAB TBolt. And I'll bet any amount the second time around they bring out the taunter just to scare a switch and DD, and don't plan to taunt... In which case, you should curse 'em and laugh in their face as they're forced to choose between that dragon dance they just used or 25% per turn.

And of course it's not like every team has a taunter...
 
I think there's great potential in this move, considering the offensive nature of the metagame. Because there's so much surprise shit coming at you left and right, your main sweeper is likely to get suckerpunched into losing most of its HP or dying. HW allows you that extra little security to make sure you have your sweeper to win the match.
 
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