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np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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The difference in bulk and speed is what makes M.Zam broken but not LO Zam. Outspeeding Crobat is huge, as that means you are only limited to Scarfers and priority (ok, Max Speed Jolly M.Aero too, but you need to Mega beforehand) to RK M.Zam, but thanks to the initial immunity to SR and bulk increment, it can live the relatively weak scarfed/priority attacks; for example, Scarf Shao's U-turn does 99.2% max and whatever it sends in is gonna be taking a lot of damage.
Depends I think if the UU userbase is large enough to warrant it that it won't necessarily split the player base so that enough opinions and games can still be formulated to make a rigorous decision, since OU can afford it due to a much larger playerbase.
koko edit: the suspect ladder is inactive as fuck when we split them--we tried.
Me edit: Oh there you go then my guess was right, it would split the player base too much.
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Psychotic
imagine life orb + focus sash zam. with ~135 base speed. that's modest mega zam. or you can keep timid and outspeed scarf chandelure.
like you said, it hits as hard as LO zam and has increased bulk--enough to be able to tank the priority that regular zam can't. and it still has magic guard when it first comes in.
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 157-186 (62.3 - 73.8%) as opposed to (82.1 - 96.8%) on regular zam
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 187-221 (74.2 - 87.6%) as opposed to (97.6 - 115%) on regular zam
252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 180-214 (71.4 - 84.9%) as opposed to (94.4 - 111.9%) on regular zam
it also survives mienshao's u-turn, for example.
the shit that's commonly used to kill alakazam just doesn't cut it vs mega. people need to stop pretending the increase in bulk is irrelevant and do some calcs, cause it matters. also the speed doesn't just beat crobat--it also makes sure dugtrio can't fuck you up, random noivern don't fuck you up, and you beat pre-mega aero 100% of the time. you also outspeed slow scarfers like say... random metagross and if you decide to keep timid, chandelure.
this thing is basically the ultimate cleaner.
(this post isn't advocating for either side, just clearing shit up)
EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-171542148 yes, JUST like LO timid zam.
imagine life orb + focus sash zam. with ~135 base speed. that's modest mega zam. or you can keep timid and outspeed scarf chandelure.
like you said, it hits as hard as LO zam and has increased bulk--enough to be able to tank the priority that regular zam can't. and it still has magic guard when it first comes in.
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 157-186 (62.3 - 73.8%) as opposed to (82.1 - 96.8%) on regular zam
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 187-221 (74.2 - 87.6%) as opposed to (97.6 - 115%) on regular zam
252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 180-214 (71.4 - 84.9%) as opposed to (94.4 - 111.9%) on regular zam
it also survives mienshao's u-turn, for example.
the shit that's commonly used to kill alakazam just doesn't cut it vs mega. people need to stop pretending the increase in bulk is irrelevant and do some calcs, cause it matters. also the speed doesn't just beat crobat--it also makes sure dugtrio can't fuck you up, random noivern don't fuck you up, and you beat pre-mega aero 100% of the time. you also outspeed slow scarfers like say... random metagross and if you decide to keep timid, chandelure.
this thing is basically the ultimate cleaner.
(this post isn't advocating for either side, just clearing shit up)
EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-171542148 yes, JUST like LO timid zam.
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Trace is pretty good too. This allows CM MegaZam to beat CMCune through Traced Pressure, which is fucking huge.
Unless Suicine decides to attack you, in which case you're kinda dead.
Trace does have it situational use, granted ill take magic guard anyway, but it can be handy. a free switch into a regenerator pokemon can give it a means of recovery, and while weather teams are uncommon in UU, from what i play at least, makes Mega Zam a great RK. If you get a free switch into a Kindra in the rain, or a Victribel in sun, or even a stoutland on sand, you pretty much outspeed since none of these pokemon get priority, as well as letting you abuse the weather for the few turns its up. I know those are still very situational, but it can shit on weather teams.
If weather teams were common, youd be 100% on point. The key abilities to nab are sheer Force, sturdy, Filter, natural cure, download, etc.. weather teams only pop up every so often, so the main perks are the more used abilities.
But, i faced a few Mega Zams already with my DH team. Lower ladder players are playing it too recklessly fyi. Im sure uppers is really abusing atm. My team had to be tweaked slightly to adjust to it. Ill see how my opinion changes after playing this weekend..
It may be usable, but I dont think it is in any way broken. I will no doubt be using it for the same reason I use Megabomasnow......It's the most badass looking mega(maybe not as hipster as I usually like but still acceptable). It also has a little more versatility in terms of movepool as compared to mons like Mega Ampharos and Blastoise, who each have basically one good set, and it will be fun fucking people over when they are stupid enough to let me trace Sheer Force
I know there are more useful abilities to nab, i was just in the OU viability ranking and someone mentioned that so i thought it be worth a mention.
When I used MegaZam in OU, it was a niche answer to Heatran with Calm Mind/Taunt... with Flash Fire and Taunt, most Heatran can't even touch you, guaranteeing at least one CM. Unfortunately that's less useful in UU, since the only common Flash Fire guys regularly run other abilities, and have other attacking options to make up for it.
Sheer Force off of a revenged Darm/Nido is pretty tough to beat, though. And Intimidate off of something like Arcanine can make the Extremespeed you'll likely eat a lot less painful.
Sheer Force off of a revenged Darm/Nido is pretty tough to beat, though. And Intimidate off of something like Arcanine can make the Extremespeed you'll likely eat a lot less painful.
Not to take away from the Megazam conversation, but has anyone else noticed that Smeargle is still UU in the Showdown teambuilder?
i hate to be that guy but
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-171652360
in this replay, however, we can see how LO zam actually can be better than its mega cünterpart. the loss of magic guard is really quite harsh, even though it's retained on the first switch-in, and it actually negates a bit of the bulk difference. Sure, that mienshao u-turn might only be doing 90-95% now, but the fact that you will probably end up taking hazard damage at some point before that means that it doesn't always translate as well in practice as it does on paper. In this case, Mega-zam bulks a hydra u-turn better than its un-mega'd counterpart would have, but it wouldn't have killed either way - however, switching twice into hazards spelled death for our spoony friend.
that log proves only how lucky you are smh.
in all seriousness, your argument is kind of irrelevant to my point. my point is that the increase in bulk makes megazam not /need/ sash as regular zam does. be honest with yourself, when's the last time you even saw a life orb zam ?_? its not used. megazam is. it clearly makes enough of a difference.
(still not advocating for either side, js)
in all seriousness, your argument is kind of irrelevant to my point. my point is that the increase in bulk makes megazam not /need/ sash as regular zam does. be honest with yourself, when's the last time you even saw a life orb zam ?_? its not used. megazam is. it clearly makes enough of a difference.
(still not advocating for either side, js)
I used CM LO Zam, js :o Obviously MegaZam is much better tho, who cares about hazards when you have that amazing beard. If anything, the biggest issue with MegaZammer regarding hazards is that it's practically forced to run Crobat as a partner since otherwise you have to use Donphan or something—obviously depending on the team you'll have more options, but I'm talking strictly for offense here.
Also why PJab > Heavy Slam on Machamp? Is Granbull that common (all other Fairies are hit much harder by Slam) to warrant its use or is it just for the chance to poison?
koko edit: machamp gets heavy slam? i had no idea LOL
Yeah, this argument does make perfect sense to me.
what this seems to suggest, then, is that mega alakazam is essentially nothing more than a buff to LO zam. It plays relatively the same way (other than some trace mechanics and maybe a different optimal fourth moveslot). If, as we've discussed, the buff from lo zam to megazam is really nothing more than a few specific instances of bulk allowing it to live a hit and the ability to outspeed bat / noivern / duggy, considering that LO zam is trash enough to only be used by motionless pedophiles, is the buff bad enough to warrant a ban?
i know this isn't really an argument but more of a question, i just kind of wanted to center the discussion around that point. Is the ability to live priority and Mienshao's u-turn and the ability to outspeed Crobat, Noivern, and Dugtrio enough of a difference to warrant a shift from -relatively unused, but viable-, to broken?
Kitten Milk alakazam was #24 on the 1630 stats at 8% ahead of Nidoking and Queen just below Absol. Its one of the best RK and had the niche of checking most boosters.
Personally, ive just been scarf bat as a great lure to MegaZam and havent faced too many issues with my DH team.
252+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 237-280 (94 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
You can even UTurn out dish almost 70% and switch to a pursuiting dark type (honchkrow, scwrf krook, etc..).
The main thing i noticed is that megazam is similar to Victini in that its sky high sp atk coupled with its great movepool covers most, if not, all relevant threats.in the UU meta. But, Mega Zam cant spam Psychic or Psyshock willy nilly, like Tini could with VC or UTurn. Scqrf krook and Honch can play mind games with MegaZam easily putting the pressure back onto the Zam user very quickly. But the initial prediction is key. If you mispredict or sack your zam check too early, then its going to be an uphill battle to say the least. But, i dont see how that argument would be different than any other sweeper and its check being removed.
Trace is good, but is situational. You COULD get sheer force. You COULD get speed boost. But, you could also get Liquid Ooze or Flower Veil.
Im not sure where im leaning yet...
Personally, ive just been scarf bat as a great lure to MegaZam and havent faced too many issues with my DH team.
252+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 237-280 (94 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
You can even UTurn out dish almost 70% and switch to a pursuiting dark type (honchkrow, scwrf krook, etc..).
The main thing i noticed is that megazam is similar to Victini in that its sky high sp atk coupled with its great movepool covers most, if not, all relevant threats.in the UU meta. But, Mega Zam cant spam Psychic or Psyshock willy nilly, like Tini could with VC or UTurn. Scqrf krook and Honch can play mind games with MegaZam easily putting the pressure back onto the Zam user very quickly. But the initial prediction is key. If you mispredict or sack your zam check too early, then its going to be an uphill battle to say the least. But, i dont see how that argument would be different than any other sweeper and its check being removed.
Trace is good, but is situational. You COULD get sheer force. You COULD get speed boost. But, you could also get Liquid Ooze or Flower Veil.
Im not sure where im leaning yet...
Just gonna throw out that Mega-Zam's stats are on par with normal Deoxys, who's banned from OU. Comparisons below, italics for a stat tie, and bold for a higher stat.
So you can see that Mega-Zam has better bulk than Deoxys both physically and specially, which helps it live through priority moves and some weaker scarf users. Plus Mega-Zam has 25 points in special attack over Deoxys meaning it hits even harder on the special side than Deoxys does, and with a move like Psyshock in his arsenal Mega-Zam can break some of the best special walls you can put in front of him.
Mega-Zam also has a near perfect offensive movepool. There's not many offensive pokemon that Mega-Zam can't break with his ridiculous speed and insane coverage. He can fit into pretty much any offensive or balanced team with how hard he hits the tier, just pick out what pokemon threaten your team and build your Mega-Zam accordingly.
Also it should be mentioned that Mega-Zam has a seriously underrated supporting movepool that he can make very good use of with his insane speed. Moves like Calm Mind, Encore, Taunt, and Substitute can be used for a variety of different purposes like wallbreaking, beating stall, and out maneuvering Sucker Punch.
Nevermind the fact that Mega-Zam's ability has some good usage after he comes in pre-mega to avoid hazard damage. Come in against Blissey Shaymin or certain Roserades if you want to get rid of a status condition, Espeon if you want Magic Bounce, one of the Nidos can give you even more stopping power, Aggron-Mega can give you filter so you can possibly survive a SE hit, Crobat and Noivern can give you the ability to hit through subs, Jirachi gives you Serene Grace for moves that have secondary effects, Kingdra can up your crit rate, Machamp makes all of your moves hit, Mienshao lets you switch out and regain some health you may have lost, and a physically defensive Porygon2 gives you a free boost.
Are all of those pokes common? Is this ability ground-breaking and a sensational way to win tons of battles? No, but if you see one of these pokes around the ladder they can still give you the opportunity to punish your opponent accordingly, and there's something to be said in that.
TLDR: If we're gonna ban Victini with his decent stats, middling speed, great attacking power, very good coverage, decent variety of sets, and SR weakness, then we should ban Mega-Zam with his great stats, blistering speed, great attacking power, superb coverage, ability to run multiple sets, and his ability to ignore hazards before he mega evolves.
We should call Mega-Zam Harbinger because this hurts UU.
HP/Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe/BST
Alakazam-Mega
55/50/65/175/95/150/590
Deoxys
50/150/50/150/50/150/600
Alakazam-Mega
55/50/65/175/95/150/590
Deoxys
50/150/50/150/50/150/600
Mega-Zam vs Lucario
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 157-186 (62.3 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 482-568 (171.5 - 202.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega-Zam vs Mienshao
252 Atk Mienshao U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 212-250 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mienshao Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 196-232 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 608-716 (224.3 - 264.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega-Zam vs Blissey
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 325-384 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Mega Alakazam: 100-100 (39.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Not the best, but Mega-Zam can still KO Blissey if she's switching into Psyshock with pretty much any prior damage)
Mega-Zam vs Umbreon
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 152-180 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 216-256 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(So long as Focus Blast hits the target Mega-Zam wins)
I'll post more calcs when I get out of class.
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 157-186 (62.3 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 482-568 (171.5 - 202.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega-Zam vs Mienshao
252 Atk Mienshao U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 212-250 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mienshao Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 196-232 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 608-716 (224.3 - 264.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega-Zam vs Blissey
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 325-384 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Mega Alakazam: 100-100 (39.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Not the best, but Mega-Zam can still KO Blissey if she's switching into Psyshock with pretty much any prior damage)
Mega-Zam vs Umbreon
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 152-180 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 216-256 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(So long as Focus Blast hits the target Mega-Zam wins)
I'll post more calcs when I get out of class.
Also it should be mentioned that Mega-Zam has a seriously underrated supporting movepool that he can make very good use of with his insane speed. Moves like Calm Mind, Encore, Taunt, and Substitute can be used for a variety of different purposes like wallbreaking, beating stall, and out maneuvering Sucker Punch.
Nevermind the fact that Mega-Zam's ability has some good usage after he comes in pre-mega to avoid hazard damage. Come in against Blissey Shaymin or certain Roserades if you want to get rid of a status condition, Espeon if you want Magic Bounce, one of the Nidos can give you even more stopping power, Aggron-Mega can give you filter so you can possibly survive a SE hit, Crobat and Noivern can give you the ability to hit through subs, Jirachi gives you Serene Grace for moves that have secondary effects, Kingdra can up your crit rate, Machamp makes all of your moves hit, Mienshao lets you switch out and regain some health you may have lost, and a physically defensive Porygon2 gives you a free boost.
Are all of those pokes common? Is this ability ground-breaking and a sensational way to win tons of battles? No, but if you see one of these pokes around the ladder they can still give you the opportunity to punish your opponent accordingly, and there's something to be said in that.
TLDR: If we're gonna ban Victini with his decent stats, middling speed, great attacking power, very good coverage, decent variety of sets, and SR weakness, then we should ban Mega-Zam with his great stats, blistering speed, great attacking power, superb coverage, ability to run multiple sets, and his ability to ignore hazards before he mega evolves.
We should call Mega-Zam Harbinger because this hurts UU.
Thanks Brock Obama Victini was banned for a combination of spamming VC and having a more than stellar coverage movepool that allowed it spam a plethora of moves. A CB VC is stronger than almost amy move Mega Zam has in its arsenal. Need to double check to be 100% sure, but i believe it outdamges Zam almost all the time.
Give Zam Psycho Boost or the ability to hold a Life Orb and maybe I'll agree with the Deoxys comparison. Deo with a life orb is more powerful at Timid than MegaZam at Modest:
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 181-214 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 172-204 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
...and that's without even looking at the fact that Deo has a 140 BP STAB nuke to toss around, or that he can OHKO Blissey with Superpower without investment. I will be the first to admit that MegaZam is very, very dangerous, but I think the Deo comparison falls a bit flat.
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 181-214 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 172-204 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
...and that's without even looking at the fact that Deo has a 140 BP STAB nuke to toss around, or that he can OHKO Blissey with Superpower without investment. I will be the first to admit that MegaZam is very, very dangerous, but I think the Deo comparison falls a bit flat.
Very true, and I should've made more of a point about that in my post above rather than just saying he had great attacking power and very good coverage, but the point still stands that Mega-Zam is an incredibly strong pokemon in UU. Mega-Zam's presence alone makes certain scarfers like Mienshao a risk as they can't OHKO what is imo the most important pokemon you want a scarfer to KO now that Mega-Zam is back in UU since he's such a massive threat.
It was really just to show how high Mega-Zam's stats were, though I did make a huge mistake in forgetting about Psycho Boost.
So I'll admit that my comparison at the end of my post didn't quite do Victini justice, and beyond stats Mega-Zam just isn't Deoxys, but Mega-Zam still has ridiculously high stats in the right places and amazing coverage which was the main point of my post. Which in my opinion that makes him too much for UU to handle without the metagame making some serious changes just to handle Mega-Zam.
1. I believe that in OU there was actually a table computing relative offensive power, and there was also an addition to the Honkalculator 4000 that allowed you to run tests against the entirety of a tier, since even though Weavile may have very high stats and Knock Off, a Starmie with an Analytic boost and a Life Orb using Hydro Pump will still do more damage to the entire tier (not sure if that's exactly true, the Honkalculator is not currently working for me)
2. I believe there was some sort of a rule in OU during the Aegislash test NOT to bring up the 720 BST argument, due to the fact that it didn't actually work out that way most of the time.
3. UU should at least try to accommodate whatever threat has been dropped in, and if, after accommodating it, it is deemed to be unhealthy for the metagame, then it should be rebanned.
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