np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

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I'm gonna try and respond to your points individually.
1. I believe that in OU there was actually a table computing relative offensive power, and there was also an addition to the Honkalculator 4000 that allowed you to run tests against the entirety of a tier, since even though Weavile may have very high stats and Knock Off, a Starmie with an Analytic boost and a Life Orb using Hydro Pump will still do more damage to the entire tier (not sure if that's exactly true, the Honkalculator is not currently working for me)
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I kind of get what you're trying to say here, but I don't see what point you've made. If you had some more data to go with this bit of information it would mean a lot more.
2. I believe there was some sort of a rule in OU during the Aegislash test NOT to bring up the 720 BST argument, due to the fact that it didn't actually work out that way most of the time.
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I don't see how this is relevant, as I said before:
Mega-Zam still has ridiculously high stats in the right places
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This is a different argument from the one you brought up with Aegislash as I'm not making an argument about Mega-Zam's overall BST, but the fact that he's got high stats where it counts. I just showed in my original post that Mega-Zam has good enough bulk to take priority hits and some SE moves from a relevant scarfer who some might just assume can OHKO Mega-Zam, then dish back out some serious damage, I even posted calcs to prove it.
3. UU should at least try to accommodate whatever threat has been dropped in, and if, after accommodating it, it is deemed to be unhealthy for the metagame, then it should be rebanned.
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Once again I don't really see what you're trying to say here. What you just described is what we're doing in this thread right now, we're talking about whether or not this poke should be rebanned.

Are you trying to say that my posting about Mega-Zam is irrelevant because I'm saying that I think Mega-Zam should be banned? Because I don't get how it would be off topic. In my original post I made a point that Mega-Zam is still a huge threat, posted calcs to show that he's not as frail as some may think, and that he still hits really hard, all totally relevant points concerning whether or not he should be rebanned.
 
I believe the knock off for Mienshao calc is off. Knock Off should always do more since Mega Zam is holding an item which results in a clean OHKO. Excuse my lack of calcs sending this from phone
 
Patrick1088 said:
Kitten Milk alakazam was #24 on the 1630 stats at 8% ahead of Nidoking and Queen just below Absol. Its one of the best RK and had the niche of checking most boosters.
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To be precise, sashzam is one of the best RKers and has the niche of checking most boosters- Kitten was talking about how MegaZam is essentially a small buff to LO zam, and considering how rarely used LO zam is, is the buff really enough to make it broken?
 
I haven't found Mega Zam much trouble to deal with yet. It's mostly down to its still very low physical defense and weakness to U-turn that makes it manageable, as there are so many Scarfed U-turners in the tier who can switch into atleast one of its moves and threaten to KO back. If Zam stays in it's likely KOed, and if the opponent switches Zam out he concedes the momentum, so it's a win-win situation.

For example Jirachi / Scarf Hydreigon is one of the most standard and popular offensive cores in the metagame and can easily take down Zam between the two of them. Jirachi has an easy switch into 3/4 of Zam's moves, can tank the subsequent Shadow Ball with HP to spare and U-turn out to Hydrei, who simply U-turns again for the KO. Vice versa Hydrei can also switch in, only needing to watch out for Dazzling Gleam and can either KO with Dark Pulse or U-turn out. The opponent pretty much has to predict perfectly to get around cores like these, and most of the time cannot afford to due to Zam's frailty.

Mega Zam also does not have the ability to run Sash, meaning it can't clean up late-game as well as regular Zam. The loss of Magic Guard is also huge, as after the first switch-in Zam is no longer immune to residual damage so it's going to get worn down by SR, status and stuff.
 
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If anything I'd say that Mega Zam cleans better than Sash Zam. More power and a speed tier that beats anything other than a Scarfer (and even then if it is Timid it outspeeds scarfers such as Chandelure) and Mega Aerodactyl (if it has more speed investment) turning Mega-Zam into a deadly late-game cleaner.
 
I wasn't referring to its speed, more to the fact that regular Zam has the insurance of the sash which means that it has to be hit a minimum of two times before going down. And late-game there isn't much that will be able to get off two hits against it due to its speed and power. This is assuming of course that Sash Zam will be at full health, but usually this is the case due to Magic Guard and that Zam is mostly used as a revenge killer for the initial to mid stages of a match. Mega Zam meanwhile is similarly frail and so has less chance of achieving this as if something is going to KO Zam, it is likely to KO Mega Zam as well. And I mean KO after residual damage, as Sash Zam is likely to be at full health while Mega Zam is not as it will probably end up taking hazard or even status damage at some point prior. Hence I feel Sash Zam has a better shot at pulling off a sweep late-game.

The only two Pokemon relevant to the speed tier argument are Crobat and Noivern, and Sash Zam takes a hit from both due to the sash and OHKOs back (well actually I would agree that Mega Zam is better in the Crobat case as Crobat is going to U-turn against Sash Zam so it can come in again afterwards and KO). Most Scarfers that outspeed Zam though still outspeed Mega Zam (anything base 85 or above). In the case of Duggy there's the EQ/Sucker Punch mindgames, and for Mega Aero it depends on whether you run Modest or Timid and even if you do go Timid there's the speed tie possibility.
 
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Mega zam in ways can be worse because you can't run sash, but it also makes it faster and stronger, giving more chances to deal more damage before dying.
 
Well yeah so there are always going to be two sides to this, and bottom line is does the Mega buff actually make Zam broken? If the loss of Magic Guard is merely made up for (meaning it doesn't actually improve it) by the increased power and speed to outrun two or three specific threats then it surely isn't enough for a ban. I don't think the improved stats make enough of a difference for it to go from being a viable threat in the tier to being broken. It has definitely seemed manageable enough to me so far.
 
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Some possibilities:
Assault Vest Spiritomb (Not too sure on this, as the req'd spread is 168 HP / 88 Atk / 252 SpD with a Careful nature, and EVEN THEN you've got a 19.1% to get 2hko'd by Dazzling gleam which prevents it from being that great of a counter, however, thanks to the 88 Atk, you can OHKO w/ Sucker Punch/Pursuit, depending on if you think that Zam's going to switch out which prevents the problem of there being no TRUE counters since it can just switch out. Thanks to Spirtomb, it can't!

CM Meloetta: With 152 EVs in SpA and anywhere from 152 to 252 in SpD (depending on how easily you want Meloetta to take hits), Melo can come in, take a Focus Blast, take another focus blast as it Calm Minds, then take a 3rd Focus Blast

AV Escavalier: With 120 HP EVs, Esca can take 2 Focus Blasts after rocks and OHKO with either Megahorn or Pursuit, in the same sort of situation as Spiritomb
 
I have to say, this argument that mega alakazam will stay UU is pretty silly imo. It was kicked out 12-0 last time, and the meta literally hasn't changed for zam, if anything, it got better, with Tini and mew gone, it has one less check and counter. It still has few checks and counters, and still will proceed to outspeed most of the meta. So what if it loses magic guard? Mega zam is a cleaner, and shouldn't be coming in on hazards multiple times. Easy BL IMO
 
So, hows the council feeling about Mega Zam. I havent seen too many in the past few days, so its been tough for me to gauge it appropriately. But, from ive experienced, this is my opinion so far.

1. Magic Guard Loss isnt terrible since it still hits harder and faster.
2. Common Scarfers do a ton to Mega zam like Shao, Hydre, etc..
3. Sucker Punch users are a check sometimes thanks to sub, unless your name is Infiltrator Spiritomb.
4. LO Zam and Mega Zam hit very similar power wise, so checks and counters are going to be similar. I know the speed difference is huge to outspeed Crobat and Noivern, but neither can switch in safely, even on regular Zam, so they are checks at best for Regular Zam, and not viable unless theyre scarfed for Mega zam. I used ScarfBat on my DH team and it was a great lure to Mega Zam thinking theyre safe. So, Crobat can still be a check, just more specific.

I havent seen any of these obscure checks and counters at all like AV Escavalier, Spiritomb, Melo, so that shows that people are not over preparing for Mega Zam. If people are using the regular checks like before, then perhaps Mega Zam isnt as overcentralizing as we initially suspected. Just my 2 cents though...
 
I am actually someone who actually welcomes really powerful mons in UU just because I think it is healthy for the meta to be introduced a new threat in order to balance old ones. With Victini getting banned (lol), I think Zam is a lot better than it once was, and it was banned unanimously. I personally think with things like CroCune, vaperon, scarf hydra, specially defensive forry, and defensive/scarf jirachi, I don't see how Alakazam could be a problem for any good team builder.

Just because something has the potential to 2hk everything doesn't mean it will. It can, but it won't always will, ie mixed kyu etc. The loss of magic guard is huge, anyone who says it isn't is talking out of their ass. The main reason anyone even used zam in BW was because magic guard allowed it to be an effective revenge killer/LO user.

With hazards being so easy to stack now (many good defoggers ripd, ie mew, zapdos, latias) with forry, tenta, frosslass, hippo, etc, pretty easy to wear down mega zam with any good defensive core. Zam is a special attacker, and will pretty much be only cleaning up late game when most of the special walls are ripd, like lax, blis, special hippo, and florges. it has a decent mid-game, but can't really force things out as well as sash zam imo because with sash zam, if alakazam IS a threat to your team, you have to sack something to break the sash, or take a big hit. With mega-zam, if you can live any one hit, you can take it out with any decently powerful move, like scarf krook or things like that.

ok early-mid game potential, but amazing late game. better than NP/SD lucario tho? idk

i say uu because we need something to beat these hydregion/nidoqueen offensive cores imo
 
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So far, I'm erring on the side of keeping it in UU. Although it hits pretty darn hard due to its sky-high Special Attack and its speed is amazing af, I feel that losing Magic Guard (+sash) is really huge since that's what made regular Zam a great revenge killer in the first place (Trace is still a pretty cool ability, though, but not as good). It's frailty, unlike Victini, makes it a lot more susceptible to revenge killing by scarfers and strong priority users. Overall, I don't think it's that unhealthy for the metagame (unless someone finds a set that makes it broken), but it's definitely one of the top things that players will have to prepare for, especially due to its excellent capabilities late game.

Just for thought, but what sets are you guys running on MegaZam? I've running CM+3 Attacks on it (I might consider Focus Blast over Dazzling Gleam) and although I'm still rusty from reduced activity on Showdown, I'm still finding some success with using it, especially when I've successfully thrown hazards into the field.
 
The megazam set i've seen and used the most would probably be magic guard --> trace with psyshock, shadow ball, energy ball, and dazzling gleam. I don't see the need for focus blast.

I personally like not m-evolving right off the bat to pretend I have the sash, and only mega-evolve when I need that extra power.
 
Calm Mind with Psyshock, Shadow Ball, and Dazzling Gleam. Shinra makes a good point, but the ability to break Blissey and CroCune are too much for me to pass up, personally. If you bring in Alakazam late against CroCune, I don't think you can beat it with Energy Ball. Someone will have to crunch some numbers (mobile posting, yo) of various stages of boosting on either side to see if it's possible. But ignoring all that, you have an extremely good chance of 2HKOing CroCune with Psyshock at +1 of you're Modest Mega Alakazam.

How have you guys been handling Scarf Hydreigon? I've run various Pursuit Mons in the past to help dofferent sweepers, but for obvious reasons Hydreigon isn't terribly susceptible to being trapped.
 
Lord of Bays said:
Calm Mind with Psyshock, Shadow Ball, and Dazzling Gleam. Shinra makes a good point, but the ability to break Blissey and CroCune are too much for me to pass up, personally. If you bring in Alakazam late against CroCune, I don't think you can beat it with Energy Ball. Someone will have to crunch some numbers (mobile posting, yo) of various stages of boosting on either side to see if it's possible. But ignoring all that, you have an extremely good chance of 2HKOing CroCune with Psyshock at +1 of you're Modest Mega Alakazam.

How have you guys been handling Scarf Hydreigon? I've run various Pursuit Mons in the past to help dofferent sweepers, but for obvious reasons Hydreigon isn't terribly susceptible to being trapped.
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+1 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Energy Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 240-284 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Lord of Bays Regarding scarf hydre i like to run a fairy/water core like Aromatisse/Suicune. The only thing Aroma has to worry about is Flash Cannon which Suicune handles easily and can nab the the CM boost on the switch. Even if you mispredict an Aroma tanks a Flash Cannon...

252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 188-222 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or Suicune tanks a Draco Meteor...

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 184-217 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Other options include a faster scarfer like Shao, Ape and Flygon who easily outspeed and can OHKO.

You could also run priority in Mach Punch, ESpeed and Vaccuum wave...once you nab a SD or NP boost...

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 195-229 (59.8 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 382-452 (117.1 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 242-285 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 343-406 (105.2 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:-)
 
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