You really need to elaborate on why Hydreigon is worth C- rank cause I myself and obviously others definitely don't see it. Also Slowking is the number one counter to Keldeo and on top of that it has some great special bulk to sponge hits in a similar fashion to how Slowbro does with physical attacks. It's just that Slowkings role overall is less appreciated right now in OU and as such it stands at C-.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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With an AV set, Slowking checks or counters a lot of Pokemon that Slowbro can't, such as Mega Charizard Y, Latios, Latias, Keldeo (better), Greninja, Mega Gardevoir, Gengar, Landorus, Mega Alakazam, Kingdra, Suicune, and Omastar, while not being a momentum killer and set up bait for a ton of Pokemon, unlike Chansey.
Haxorus has been moved between C- and D several times. It's ranking is somewhat tied to it's use on Drag Mag teams as a non-Mega DDer that can efficiently kill Fairies with Poison Jab, if I recall correctly.
I'd like some explanation on why Infernape dropped. I think I've been more than clear in my posts about all of it's uses, and I firmly believe that those uses are worth a C+ rank. I didn't get ANY negative feedback after my comment on why it shouldn't drop, so I don't feel this was explored properly. I realize that there are pokemon that outclass it (somewhat) at each of it's different roles, either as a lead, or a physical/special sweeper/wallbreaker, but there really aren't any other pokemon that can outclass it at EVERYTHING. Whatever the competition, 'nape has something on them. So I'd like some more discussion on this, because I still think Infernape is at least a C+ mon.
To be honest, I don't see Greninja in S right now. While Greninja is a huge threat to many offensive and defensive mons alike, with a very inclusive movepool, it isn't exactly the threat it is made out to be because of opportunity cost. Basically, Greninja just can't run a coverage move for everything and usually ends up being walled by at least something on an opponent's team. In addition to this, Protean becomes Greninja's bane by in some cases, causing it to be neutral weak to priority moves, which does not go well with how frail Greninja is.
Basically, the fact that Greninja really can't run a coverage move for everything, resulting in it being stopped by something else on an opponent's team, in addition to it being weak or neutral to priority after Protean doesn't really settle with being an S rank mon. It is too easy to wear down after life orb hits, and can be revenge killed to easily. While it is still extremely useful, it should sit at the top of A+, not S.
Basically, the fact that Greninja really can't run a coverage move for everything, resulting in it being stopped by something else on an opponent's team, in addition to it being weak or neutral to priority after Protean doesn't really settle with being an S rank mon. It is too easy to wear down after life orb hits, and can be revenge killed to easily. While it is still extremely useful, it should sit at the top of A+, not S.
So first off Idk what opportunity cost you're speaking of. Greninja is the bane of so many offensive teams, balanced, and in some aspects even certain elements of stall. It is definitely one of the most viable mons that you can consider when building offensive or balanced teams due to the nature of what it provides with Protean and an array of coverage moves. The 4mss in Greninjas case is such a minuscule factor when you consider it has coverage options to hit an extremely large portion of relevant threats outside of very bulky special walls that hinder it such as Chansey and Empoleon. On top of this, its speed tier is a huge slap in the face to offense when the majority of threats fall below his speed tier and lets him handle it much more easily. Spikes set is a super annoying and a very efficient set on HO teams and paves the way not only for Greninja to clean late game, which has been one of its best traits for awhile, it paves the way for set up sweepers to finish up the game with less complications after repeated hazard damage.
Is your team psychic weak? Dark Pulse. Is your team bulky water weak? Grass Knot. Is your team a bit Dragon weak? Ice Beam. It goes on for a couple of movesets that can be slapped on with numerous variations to handle what needs to be taken care of. The argument of a problematic typing with Protean on that turn only lies in the use of mostly offensive teams because slower builds not hitting or surpassing Greninjas speed threshold won't be able to react before it changes its type to something more beneficial. Again, the priority issue is only a concern if Greninja has no other options against more offensive based teams, basically the ones that are utilizing these priority moves. It has partners, it can switch, the player can take these problematic factors out to do Greninjas job if necessary, which in most cases it doesn't have to considering the teams Greninja occupies. If you're wittling down Greninjas HP to the point that it's going to be prone to all these issues you speak of, there is a slight possibility you're doing something wrong anyways. Greninja is one of the best mons because it takes advantage of the offensive meta that we're seeing with relative ease.
I would've agreed with you some time ago about it staying in A+ before it got bumped up, but after playing against a lot more Greninja, utilizing it and seeing many other players utilize it well I can definitely say it's an S rank threat.
Hate to dissapoint you, but Smogon in not a democracy. Doesn't matter if you didn't get any negative feedback (I shoula posted darn), if the leaders thing it should drop it will drop and I doubt you will change their mind with the same argument.
Anyway, about infernape, you make it sound as if Infernape can preform all the roles it's outclassed at in one. It can't, it can only do one at a time (duh). And it isn't "somewhat" outclassed at some of these roles, it's severely outclassed but has a niche on very select teams. SR Lead? Terrakion is better in every way. LO? LO Terrakion. Terrakion just seems to do everything Infernape can do (bar mixed attacker, but Terrakion has the HP Ice lure so) better. Also, I struggle to see Infernape on par with the rest of C+. Let's take Gastrodon and Magneton. Both of them have one change from their better counterparts (Storm Drain and higher speed, respectively) that make them viable options vs an entire playstyle (In Gastrodon's case Rain, which is huge, and in Magneton's case Birdspam, which is also huge). Infernape does indeed have this vs SkarmChans stall but that's the problem: SkarmChans and stall in general is not so big anymore. SkarmChans is a weaker stall core nowadays that still works but has a whole lot of shit to deal with that needs to be countered on the stall team, so more often than not using other Pokemon to counter more of the metagame (like Stall is supposed to) is a better idea. As SkarmChans falls, so does one of Infernape's biggest niches, and thus Infernape could easily remain in C with shit like Espeon.
I never claimed this was a democracy, but if informed discussion weren't relevant to the rankings, this thread wouldn't exist, so don't come at me with your shallow, pretentious put-downs. I haven't made the same argument over and over, either: I've brought up different points depending on what people don't seem to be considering. And I have just a much a right as you or anyone else to voice my opinions, and I won't tolerate being talked down to like I know nothing, so you can go ahead and leave out the belligerent insults in your next reply.
Now, for your actual arguments... People always seem to come back to assuming I'm trying to say that Infernape is this amazing mon that has 12 moveslots and can run every move I mention at once, and I don't know where that's coming from at this point. I'm not claiming it's this god of OU that should be A rank or anything of the sort. I don't even always use infernape myself or anything, as often there ARE better options for what I need on any given team. But again, that doesn't make it any less relevant, it just means that like any other pokemon, it has pros and cons and must be carefully considered before getting a teamslot. I've gone over this before, but here we go again I guess. Infernape is admittedly frail, so it has few chances to switch in, and it can be pressured against highly offensive teams as 108 is a good speed tier, but there are plenty of faster threats that can OHKO him (gengar, lati@s, greninja, talonflame, etc.), so i don't think he should rise a LOT, but he certainly shouldn't fall, and I'll explain why (again).
As for comparing 'nape to terrakion, that's one I hear a lot, and in a lot of ways terrakion is better: it has the same speed tier, fighting STAB w/CC, better bulk and a higher Atk stat, plus a lot of the same moves (taunt, CC, EQ, SR), but does that leave infernape outclassed? Not by a long shot. Heck, I'd say that if we're only comparing 'nape with Terrakion, 'nape is gonna come out on top in a lot of important categories. First let's go over their lead sets. Both have the same speed tier, and will run a lot of the same moves, usually something along the lines of taunt, SR, and 2 coverage moves. So, let's examine that. Most lead terrakions are going to run some combination of Taunt/SR/EQ/stone edge/CC as their lead set, which will let it hit a lot of threats. So what will Infernape run? On a lead, I usually run some combination of taunt/SR/fake out/fire blast/CC, with CC being potentially used over SR or taunt depending on the needs of my team (just so this doesn't come back to thinking I'm trying to run five moves again). So where does this leave that comparison? Let's look, shall we?
-Terrakion's lead set is able to taunt to prevent rocks/other hazards from slower pokes. Infernape does EXACTLY the same thing.
-Terrakion's lead is able to set SR. Again, 'nape does the same.
-Terrakion can hit pretty hard with good coverage in the form of EQ/Stone Edge/CC. And would you lo and behold, Infernape gets all those moves plus a bunch more. Now, in this category, Terrakion has a slight edge, as it has a higher Atk stat, but for the most part, what terrakion kills with SE hits, 'nape will kill with SE hits. That only gives terrakion the edge against neutral targets, basically. And that's still only counting the physical side. Nape also has a ridiculous special movepool it can use very well.
-Terrakion won't die immediately against talonflame. It's got 'nape there. (In fact, there are a lot of leads that terrakion won't immediately die to that 'nape will, such as lando, rotom-w, and garchomp, but terrakion won't be BEATING any of those either, so it's mostly a tie in that regard.)
So if we're just comparing lead sets, nape hits a smaller coverage window with only fake out/fire blast/CC as it's attack options... but what it hits better with that combo is VERY relevant. With fake out/fire blast, Infernape completely shuts down sashed leads such as breloom and mamoswine before they can do anything. All they're going to be able to pull off is a hit from their priority moves after 'nape breaks their sash with fake out and OHKO's them with fire blast. That means no SR from mamo, and no Spore from breloom. This is something terrakion could never hope to do. So what else is infernape beating with it's lead set that terrakion would have no chance against? Oh, nothing really important... just the A rank threat MEGA FREAKING MEDICHAM! That's right: with this set, Infernape is a 100% check to mega medi, and will beat it one on one every time, assuming fire blast doesn't miss. (and if you wanna go there, 'nape could just run a completely physical set with fire punch and still get the same result without the accuracy concern) 'Nape has a faster fake out, which is what most people use to get medicham to mega evolve, and after fake out damage can easily finish it off with fire blast, with the only thing medi could do is minor chip damage from a resisted bullet punch (i feel like i'm repeating myself... huh. it's almost like i've said this before and it completely holds up). Oh, and before I forget: Infernape OHKO's ferrothorn, while Terrakion doesn't, and Terrakion takes a sizable chunk of damage from power whip/gyro ball. You already mentioned skarmory a little, but I also have to mention that it somewhat falls into the same category with mamo and breloom as a sturdy user, since infernape can break sturdy w/fake out and then OHKO with fire blast. The only caveat there is leftovers sets, which will heal off the fake out damage and still survive the incoming fire blast w/sturdy. But if you consider that there's literally NOTHING terrakion can beat skarmory with (and the fact that most skarmory anymore run shed shell to escape mag), i think we can still call that one in 'nape's favor. Now with all that said, what does terrakion have over infernape? Bulk. Terrakion has a better chance against pokemon that both it and infernape both take neutral damage from, as terrakion's bulk will allow it to survive a lot of hits that would KO infernape. So if you only need a vague lead and aren't worried about any of the threats I mentioned, terrakion's your mon. But if you want a lead that can break opposing sash leads and beat mega medi one on one, you're gonna prefer infernape.
So, there's the comparison on lead sets. Doesn't look like infernape got completely outclassed to me. In fact, it looked a lot more like infernape was a better choice against a multitude of common leads. Huh. Go figure. Now let's move on to the next thing you mentioned, the straight-up life orb attacking sets. A typical terrakion LO set is going to run some combination of EQ/Stone Edge/CC/SD/HP ice. And that's pretty much it. Sure, the odd one might throw on quick attack, iron head, or poison jab, but you really shouldn't bring those up, since infernape has stronger versions of all of them in mach punch, iron tail, and gunk shot, so they don't really play into the comparison, except to give infernape the edge on coverage (and in those moves' cases, power). Speaking of which. what about LO infernape? Well, Infernape has a multitude of options. First off: boosting. Sure, terrakion has SD for it's set, but 'nape can carry SD or NP, and abuse both easily with it's huge movepool. In fact, infernape has STAB priority on both sides of the spectrum, so after a SD/NP boost, it becomes VERY threatening, even to offensive 'mons that would usually outspeed and KO (looking at you, greninja). But let's just stick to some of the main things infernape has over terrakion: first, a special movepool and the SpA to make use of it. This allows 'nape to run mixed sets that utilize powerful moves like overheat and then continue attacking from the physical side with no power drop-off. Next, STAB priority: infernape gets mach punch and vacuum wave, giving it a leg up on terrakion's quick attack, doing almost twice as much damage to neutral targets, and obviously MUCH more to fighting-weak targets. Next, infernape gets MUCH more coverage, with moves like grass knot and thunderpunch adding on to the coverage it already shares with terrakion in moves like EQ, stone edge, and poison jab. So basically, LO infernape dwarfs terrakion's coverage, and therefore can out-damage terrakion against a lot of pokemon, especially water types with whom they share a weakness. Again, we end up in the same place as with the lead sets: Infernape has the versatility to cover more threats, but terrakion has more base power, so if all you want is to do higher damage to neutral targets, terrakion is likely the better choice, but if you want to hit specific pokemon for SE damage, you'll probably want to run infernape and give him the appropriate coverage.
Now, I don't have time to list every single threat that LO infernape or terrakion will beat or lose to here, so I'll just ask that people use good logic to understand what I'm trying to get across here. I'm not saying that LO infernape is going to beat, say... landorus or slowbro or something, as well I shouldn't because it won't (and neither will terrakion). So if something is obvious (like that) can we please assume that I DIDN'T mean that instead of that I'm implying that infernape can kill anything? It's moderate offenses mean there are plenty of things it doesn't beat; The main point here is that it beats almost all of the same things terrakion beats and then some with it's additional coverage options. I just have to be really aggressive with my explanations since the assumption most people make is that infernape is bad.
So what's the conclusion here? Basically, that terrakion outclasses infernape... against neutral targets. By virtue of it's higher attack and bulk, terrakion will fare better against pokemon that neither it nor infernape can hit super-effectively. But as infernape has a larger movepool than terrakion, and is thus capable of hitting a ton more pokemon for SE damage, that's actually a pretty short list. And considering that we didn't even get into infernape's ability to use U-Turn to run from trouble, or will-o-wisp to cripple it's counters, I think it's safe to say that infernape is in fact NOT outclassed by Terrakion in every way as you claim, and in fact, it is Infernape that out-does terrakion at many important jobs.
Mew is also a bit passive, and it gives free switchin, and setup opportunities to some of the most scary sweepers in the current metagame, sd talonflame (does not mind knock off too too much) Mega charizard X and mega charizard Y (have very little switchins and is in a good situation to predict as mew cannot really touch it) as well as giving nice setup opportunities to even more mons, but requiring that they get a free switch or comes in on a move they dont mind/roost: Sub mega gardevoir, sub dd (mega) gyarados (though it depends on the speed both run) Lum dd dragonite among others. Last but not least mew cannot switchin and check some of the scariest sweepers in the meta, such as Specs keldeo, LO terrakion, excadrill, greninja, bisharp, gengar, jolly heracross, (both) landorus, mega pinsir np thundurus, dragonite, excadrill, diggersby, manaphy and mega tyranitar. I am not saying that you need to check that many offensive mons (no pokemon can possibly do that) but giving free turns to the most scary, being easy to play around and its inability to really check the best sweepers just makes me feel that it does not deserve A+
I should also mention that mew is complete taunt bait, meaning that it cannot do anything to everything that carry taunt.
I feel like a dick nomination something down, people seem to like moving stuff up more :(
Replies in bold.
EDIT: Celticpride, the only problem I have with that is that stall isn't anywhere near as popular or viable as rain or birdspam atm, meaning even if it does help vs an entire playstyle it's one of the less viable ones.
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If we are talking about the one big niche that things have, Infernape is a wallbreaker that beats Doublade without hurting it's overall moveset. That is big as the niches you mentioned, because the only other wallbreakers that can do that are Char-Y, Kyu-B and EQ Mega Pinsir. Everything else has to run obscure coverage (Medi, Hera) or wear it down repeatedly (Gard) to get by Doublade. Doublade is popular on stall right now, so that helps it against a whole playstyle like the others you mentioned. Mix Ape also 2HKOs Slowbro, who is an issue for a lot of Fighting types in general.
Just a small other thing, Gastro and Quag really aren't counterparts in any way outside of typing imo. Outside of Kabutops, Gastro mostly takes on special attackers, while Quag takes on physical attackers that are boosting sweepers. They aren't really used interchangeably on similar team archetypes, which should be the situation if we are directly comparing them.
Infernape dropped because it's worse than the rest of the offensive Pokemon in C+ rank, such as Magneton, Entei, and Toxicroak, and is also severely outclassed in all of its roles. The good lead set, which is not Taunt + Fake Out as you said, it's actually dual STABs, Endeavor, and Stealth Rock, has the big problem of losing to some of the best hazard removers, Latios, Latias, and Starmie, making it a very situational and often useless suicide lead. Pokemon such as Terrakion, Azelf, Mew, and Landorus definitely outclass Infernape as offensive or suicide Stealth Rock leads.
Same goes for the mixed set, which only has two slots (because you need dual STABs) to cover Azumarill, Latios, Latias, bulky Talonflame, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Dragonite, Gyarados, Slowbro, Hippowdon, Starmie, Suicune, Alomomola, Victini, Cresselia, and Quagsire, so good luck with that. Infernape has to choose between Thunder Punch, Grass Knot, Hidden Power Ice, Stone Edge, and U-turn, and no matter which two moves it picks, it will struggle against many important threats, both offensive and defensive. Compare this to Specs Keldeo, Swords Dance Mega Heracross, and Life Orb Terrakion with Hidden Power Ice, which need much less prediction, fuck up stall harder, and struggle against way less relevant threats while still checking Bisharp (one of the few reasons to use Infernape on an offensive team, to have a fast Fire-type able to check Bisharp), and it's not hard to see why Infernape didn't deserve to be in C+.
First off, thank you for the courteous reply, I appreciate it, and I didn't exactly mean to sound so aggressive calling you out either, so I think we can both agree to apologize and move on to what's really important.
As for your first reply claiming that anti-leads aren't relevant, that's just not true. The ability to simultaneously set your own rocks, prevent the enemy from setting rocks, AND kill their rock setter while also not being worthless offensively after that is a HUGE niche that both infernape and terrakion share (and yes, infernape is better at it). And as for your claims that mamo and breloom can't hold up in the current meta, that's just silly. Breloom, for one, is an awesome pokemon that every team should have an answer for, and infernape is one of the best ones out there. It is able to beat sashed breloom without ever giving it the chance to spore, which is amazing. Other pokemon run lum berries JUST to beat breloom, so there's absolutely no call to say that it's unviable. And you seemed to just ignore the fact that I also put it out there that infernape checks mega medicham, who is also a very big threat that sees a lot of usage, and can potentially wreck entire teams given the chance. Celticpride also just recently mentioned that Infernape is one of only a few pokemon that beat doublade without altering their set, so that's another huge selling point I hadn't even thought of yet. I will admit that skarmory and ferrothorn haven't been seeing as much usage with magnezone running rampant, but 1. they still do get used, so it's not like they've completely disappeared, and 2. magnezone, who is the main reason they've seen less usage, can ALSO be checked by infernape. Scarfed variants of magnezone outspeed infernape, but can't net the OHKO, so nape is actually a decent mon to check mag with, as it can easily OHKO with CC or Fire Blast. So the fact that it can check the thing that's causing it's checks to see less usage kind of defeats the argument that since the things it checks are seeing less usage, so should 'nape.
Your next point was that the things infernape beats that terrakion doesn't were irrelevant, but again, i refer you to things like medicham, who infernape checks perfectly, as well as things such as mega heracross, who is also easily checked by 'nape but not terrakion. These two are ENORMOUS threats by themselves, and honestly enough to end that argument now, but there are still more: infernape's fire type makes it neutral to fairy, which makes it a better choice to take these types on than terrakion. Stuff like CM clefable, for example, would need 2 or sometimes 3 boosts to OHKO 'nape with moonblast, while terrakion could be easily OHKO'd at only +1. And since most fairies run fire coverage to check steels, infernape often has an easy chance to switch in on predicted flamethrowers or HP fires. And since we all know how common and threatening fairies are, having a better answer for them is another huge plus in Infernape's column. And to the question of why I didn't mention sub as an option for terrakion, I was going off what I normally see them run, and what was on the strategy dex. I don't know much about sub SD terrakion, honestly, but it doesn't really seem to change much to me, as terrakion isn't bulky enough to have really hard to break subs, and would mostly use them against slower pokemon it was predicting would try to set up/status/switch out. And using that logic, infernape could pull off the exact same set, so I don't see the appeal. Next, I don't even know what to say to the fact that you're trying to compare infernape by itself to a core of terrakion AND greninja. No one pokemon should ever be compared to two pokemon at once. At the very least, compare a terrakion/greninja core against an infernape/greninja core. And in that case, there's plenty of cause to use either one. Infernape, for example, can switch in on predicted grass moves aimed at greninja, where terrakion couldn't. I'll concede that terrakions higher bulk makes it generally easier to fit onto any given core, but that doesn't just automatically make it easier to put on any given team; There's much more to teambuilding than that. The mere fact that infernape and terrakion have one type different causes them to be used very differently in cores, even though they may have the same combat role. Nape's resistance to steel, fairy, and grass (all of which terrakion is weak to) make it better to switch in on many of those moves, while terrakion's neutrality to flying does the same for it on those moves, so both of them have the ability to build cores around specifically covering/checking those types of moves, so you can't just say that 'terrakion fits in cores better' and leave it at that.
Your remaining arguments again repeat that you find what infernape covers that terrakion doesn't irrelevant, but that's simply not the case. There are a lot of extremely relevant threats in that list, such as medicham, heracross, and fairy-types. And to the claim that it's hard to slap infernape onto any team: that's not true either. Infernape's ridiculously huge movepool gives it the versatility to run several different sets, so you can usually find something that your team is lacking, and use infernape to fill that gap, while terrakion can only do a few things, and even though it is very good at those things.... so is infernape. So I don't really see what you're trying to say there, as from a teambuilding perspective, it's almost easier to use infernape, as there are more things you can do with it.
So again, I'm claiming that Infernape has enough going for it over pokemon that 'outclass' it to remain a viable pokemon, and should not have dropped. And once again, I do want to thank you for replying. I'd like to see this converstion continue until we've completely gone over everything infernape is capable of so that it ends up in the correct rank.
Yeah I really don't get why everyone wants Greninja to drop, in fact it's probably the best Pokemon in the meta right now. It's really hard for offense to deal with, and if far from deadweight against more defensive teams . Sure, it has slight 4MSS, but the mere threat posed by its coverage makes everything that isn't SpD Clefable, SpD Gyarados Chansey, and Cresselia (all of which are big momentum killers besides I guess Clef) less than a safe answer to it. It doesn't really have 4MSS since, as AM explained it can run what it wants depending on its team, so lacking coverage isn't really a big deal when it just runs what its team needs it to run. It also has the option to abuse anything defensive with Spikes. It's just a really versatile and scary Pokemon in general, and absolutely deserves S rank.
If there's any S rank that should drop, it's probably Keldeo. I really feel like the metagame is too prepared for it at this point for it to be considered an S-rank threat, and by dropping Azumarill to A+ we've increased the standards of S to an extent where i don't think Keldeo can keep up. I'm having a really hard time convincing myself it's better than Azumarill in this metagame, given how many things switch in on Keldeo and how common they are (I always see around 2 decent switchins to Keldeo per team personally). I know it's great at wearing down its checks and counters, but those checks and counters still check it regardless. And what switches into Keldeo with relative ease is generally more threatening than what switches into Azu, so using Keldeo comes at more risk all things considered, because then you need to pack a switchin to offensive stuff like Latis, Azumarill, Gyara, Dragonite, possibly Greninja too.
Apparently Keldeo is more consistently good against more teams than Azu but I don't really see that tbh. Offense doesn't have too much trouble with it since Latis are on every offensive team pretty much, and it's not hard to fit a secondary check. And it really isn't that great vs Stall. There are a few things that are seen on defensive teams that not only resist its dual STAB, but don't care much about burn, stuff like Celebi, Starmie, Amoonguss, Rest Gyara, Slowbro to an extent (I know Slowbro isn't a counter since it's 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump but it is a good check and doesn't really get worn down by burn). Keldeo just kinda has a hard time doing much against quite a few teams. If Azumarill dropped because too much stuff switches into it, and because it doesn't consistently deliver against every team, then Keldeo should should drop on the same grounds.
In any case, Keldeo and Azumarill should share the same rank imo, I simply don't see the former as more viable than the latter. For me, it would make sense for either Keldeo to drop or Azumarill to rise.
If there's any S rank that should drop, it's probably Keldeo. I really feel like the metagame is too prepared for it at this point for it to be considered an S-rank threat, and by dropping Azumarill to A+ we've increased the standards of S to an extent where i don't think Keldeo can keep up. I'm having a really hard time convincing myself it's better than Azumarill in this metagame, given how many things switch in on Keldeo and how common they are (I always see around 2 decent switchins to Keldeo per team personally). I know it's great at wearing down its checks and counters, but those checks and counters still check it regardless. And what switches into Keldeo with relative ease is generally more threatening than what switches into Azu, so using Keldeo comes at more risk all things considered, because then you need to pack a switchin to offensive stuff like Latis, Azumarill, Gyara, Dragonite, possibly Greninja too.
Apparently Keldeo is more consistently good against more teams than Azu but I don't really see that tbh. Offense doesn't have too much trouble with it since Latis are on every offensive team pretty much, and it's not hard to fit a secondary check. And it really isn't that great vs Stall. There are a few things that are seen on defensive teams that not only resist its dual STAB, but don't care much about burn, stuff like Celebi, Starmie, Amoonguss, Rest Gyara, Slowbro to an extent (I know Slowbro isn't a counter since it's 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump but it is a good check and doesn't really get worn down by burn). Keldeo just kinda has a hard time doing much against quite a few teams. If Azumarill dropped because too much stuff switches into it, and because it doesn't consistently deliver against every team, then Keldeo should should drop on the same grounds.
In any case, Keldeo and Azumarill should share the same rank imo, I simply don't see the former as more viable than the latter. For me, it would make sense for either Keldeo to drop or Azumarill to rise.
On Infernape... I'd just like to bring up the bulky WoW set, aka Nog's Infernape, an incredible asset for Balanced and Stall teams. With Slack Off, Taunt and Will-O-Wisp Infernape becomes a true Mew, Scizor and Bisharp counter all-in-one, while also crippling most common Infernape switch-ins and having good durability. Outside of Talonflame, Charizard and Earthquake Gliscor, nothing actually switches-in safely against this Infernape set, allowing it to spread burns and cripple countless common threats.
If you want replays, the best I can provide right now is this.
I'm not saying it should stay in C+, but please consider this set whenever you try to decide what rank Infernape does belong to, as it is, imo, the best Infernape set right now, and I don't see how it is worse than anything in C+ or in the same level as some... questionable Pokémon in C-rank.
About S-rank... people, A+ is perfectly high. The metagame got to a point where the gap between S and A+ is really small. Please don't act like dropping stuff to A+ means the Pokémon became absolute crap, because it really doesn't. I faced this a lot after Azumarill dropped: people started acting like it suddenly wasn't good. I could easily see some S-ranks in A+ and vice-versa. As such, I think that Pokémon in S and A+ should be open for discussion, getting rid of the "conclusion reached" category for now except for Pokémon who have risen or fallen very recently or have really solid arguments backing them up.
If you want replays, the best I can provide right now is this.
I'm not saying it should stay in C+, but please consider this set whenever you try to decide what rank Infernape does belong to, as it is, imo, the best Infernape set right now, and I don't see how it is worse than anything in C+ or in the same level as some... questionable Pokémon in C-rank.
About S-rank... people, A+ is perfectly high. The metagame got to a point where the gap between S and A+ is really small. Please don't act like dropping stuff to A+ means the Pokémon became absolute crap, because it really doesn't. I faced this a lot after Azumarill dropped: people started acting like it suddenly wasn't good. I could easily see some S-ranks in A+ and vice-versa. As such, I think that Pokémon in S and A+ should be open for discussion, getting rid of the "conclusion reached" category for now except for Pokémon who have risen or fallen very recently or have really solid arguments backing them up.
SpD Gyarados isn't a counter since it gets 2HKO'd by Grass Knot after SR like 86% of the time and can't beat Greninja since it resists Waterfall and Earthquake when it's a Grass-type (unless you run Bounce, which has its own issues).
As an aside, never run HP Grass Greninja; Rotom-W isn't OHKO'd even after SR and it is weaker than or equal to Grass Knot on most of its other targets.
Specially Defensive Gyarados runs Thunder wave > Earthquake to turn Greninja into deadweight. Just a minor nitpick really.
I mean, I would love to continue this convo, but alexwolf over there seemed to sum up everything left for me to say, and he and the other deciders seem pretty adamant on the decision, meaning it would probably be a lost cause for both of us. Not mocking the idea or anything, just pointing out that a lenghty discussion won't really accomplish much given the circumstances.
Instead, I think it would be more important for us to discuss other matters at hand, such as what's going on at the higher ranks. Which has brought me to a conclusion: Remove S Rank until ORAS arrives. For now, S Rank and A+ Rank have been barely different as the line is so fine. This isn't going to change till ORAS, so why not just remove the rank entirely? It'd make sense I suppose.
This is sort of counter productive considering the purpose of this thread. I can sympathize with S/A+ rank being very similar to each other but it's suppose to represent the current state of the metagame. The notion of removing it just to consolidate great ranks doesn't actually do anything in theory and makes it more messy because new players will just look at a huge pool of options when they're combined and have no realistic understanding of what is some of the more dominant stuff in the meta in terms of viability and constraint to teambuilding. I think so far the ranks are generally fine besides some debatable aspects that are being discussed right now anyways. Higher ranks are pretty much solidified and only the lower stuff remains to actually clean up. No need for such a big removal/change imo. I might be missing your argument though so just let me know if there's some sort of misunderstanding.
The whole of A+ is not that close to the whole of S imo. While there may be a fine line between Lando-T, Azumarill, Thundurus and Mega Pinsir and the four S-rank mons, the gap gets much wider when you look at the other parts of A+. There is still a noticeable difference between Mew, Mega Scizor, Garchomp, Landorus-I, Mega Venusaur and Talonflame compared to Keldeo, who I consider to have the weakest S-rank case (still strong, just weak comparatively speaking).
Yeah, seems that way. It's a shame, though. Infernape is a great 'mon that is fun to use, and really deserves better. Hell, who knows, maybe he'll be a surprise mega for ORAS lol. Eh, either way I'll still use him when I need his unique skills, and I would encourage other people to try him out as well. Maybe someone will discover a set I haven't seen yet that launches him back up the rankings.
Just because there's a thin line between S and A+ doesn't mean it should be removed. Even if they are only marginally better, they are nonetheless the best Pokemon in the tier. If a Pokemon deserves S rank, it will be there.
I am not completely sold on dropping Keldeo; it still puts an immense amount of pressure on its checks because it tends to carry Scald, and while its most common set locks it into a move, it is still much better than most of these A+ mons, such as Mega Scizor, Mew, Mega Venusaur, because it requires teams to have a check if they do not want to get dismantled by it, and most of those checks are far from safe checks, due to Scald. That itself is enough to keep Keldeo in S Rank.
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