Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[Jukain]

I actually think a move like Dragon Pulse may be worth of consideration on CM Mega Latias, with or without Stored Power. Dragon Pulse provides a lot more immediate power, which is definitely needed at times vs more offensive teams where actually setting up enough to be a threat can be difficult to do sometimes with just Stored Power.

 

[daftmau5]

ParaFlinch Jirachi can also be bad news for Mega Latias. It's gonna take a lot of CMs to overcome that 100/100 4x Psychic resist and Jirachi is way more likely to gimp you in this process. Meta Megagross may also be a problem if it gets an Attack boost from Meteor Mash. Agility versions also have the benefit of flinching with Iron Head.

Unless Rachi is running a lot of atk and spe (i believe the 2 common sets are spdf wish maker which doesn't run any attack and sub 3 atks which runs 252 hp 160 atk 96 spe jolly afaik) , Mega Latias subs and boosts to +6/+6 on Rachi easily:

• 160 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 100+ Def Mega Latias: 73-87 (20 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

+6 Stored Power then easily 2hkos any Rachi variant:

• +6 0 SpA Mega Latias Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(For the record i'm going off Bold 252 HP/100 Def/160 Spe Mega Latias which is a faster less bulky variant)

 

[Twiranitar]

I just don't know: which move benefits more Greninja? Gunk Shot or Sludge Bomb/Wave? Does a mixed offense make him better?

 

[AM]

I just don't know: which move benefits more Greninja? Gunk Shot or Sludge Bomb/Wave? Does a mixed offense make him better?

Gunk Shot because it can't learn the other two moves you mentioned. For the most part the moveset would still be specially offensive just with Gunk Shot to hit its defensive checks such as Clefable, Sylveon, and AV Azumarill harder.

 

[Alphanex20]

I did some playing on the ladder yesterday (low on the ladder, mind you) with a new team and got some decent results (I'm more of a WiFi player, I just used Showdown for testing). Weirdly enough, I stumbled onto a couple of interesting sets while making the team:

Scizor@Shed Shell
Adamant Nature
248HP 252atk 8Spe (play with these as you like)
Bullet Punch
U-Turn
Roost
Defog/Knock Off/Superpower/Swords Dance

When I made this I needed a steel type to remove Mega Gardevoir as well as priority (the team's mega was sableye). I'm not the biggest fan of a Choice item on something which can be trapped so easily, so initially I tried AV, but then I realized I could use Roost on it, so I dropped that as well. Shed Shell came to mind since it allowed me to escape Magnezone while also bluff a Band. I came across a Mag once while using this and trolled the hell out of it in the process (it came in on Defog, and I switched to my Quagsire while my opponent was going "WTF!?"). You could opt for Knock Off or Superpower or even SD, but I personally like this idea for an offensive-ish Defog Scizor (that is trap-proof). It works as a pretty good Goth lure alongside either Mega Sableye or Mega Slowbro (who can take anything barring TBolt in Bro's case and are immune to trick), and particularly Mega Tyranitar (who can pursuit-trap the Goth) or a trapper of your own (Wobb is an excellent example who likes the U-Turn momentum).


Latias@Leftovers
Timid Nature
160hp 96satk 252Spe
Dragon Pulse
Thunderbolt
Roost/Recover
Psych Up

This came to mind as a check to Mega Slowbro, more specifically, the CroBro set. What this lets me do is spam TBolt on it until it rests, then swipe its Calm Minds with Psych Up and keep going. I originally wanted to use Taunt on Latias, but it oddly enough seems to be the only poke in OU that doesn't get it (alongside Latios). Weirdly enough, I thought of Psych Up when looking through its movepool and was inspired by Regice (of all things) to use it in tandem with TBolt. For those who don't know, Special Defensive Regice used Psych Up in RSE to beat CroCune and other CM-spammers, and this does the same thing but trades raw bulk for speed, reliable recovery, and a better defensive typing (and a touch more power). I never used it a lot in the games I played, but it's nice to have in the back for Slowbro-M, Zard-Y, Keldeo, Lando-I (the latter two like Calm Minding out of nowhere and Psych Up trolls the hell out of them), and the occasional CroCune or even more occasional BP team (I used it once against BP and nearly laughed myself to death, mind that Psych Up ignores Sub and Magic Bounce).

 

[Josh Morales]

After having done extensive testing, Bulky Starmie is really fucking good in this meta and Hydreigon is actually p good too. The omnipresence of psychic-types really does help it in the meta and that's not to mention its fantastic synergy with the monster that is Mega Metagross. In my opinion, Life Orb Hydreigon is much better than Scarf as I find Scarf Hydreigon's power to be relatively underwhelming and I also find the damage to be fundamental to wallbreaking for MegaGross. Lastly, I prefer the longevity provided from using Roost on the Life Orb set.

 

[Alphanex20]

After having done extensive testing, Bulky Starmie is really fucking good in this meta and Hydreigon is actually p good too. The omnipresence of psychic-types really does help it in the meta and that's not to mention its fantastic synergy with the monster that is Mega Metagross. In my opinion, Life Orb Hydreigon is much better than Scarf as I find Scarf Hydreigon's power to be relatively underwhelming and I also find the damage to be fundamental to wallbreaking for MegaGross. Lastly, I prefer the longevity provided from using Roost on the Life Orb set.

Moderately surprised with that, what with M-Sableye giving Starmie problems (and spinblocking) and the fairies that beat sableye walling Hydreigon pretty badly. MegaGross-Hydreigon seems pretty good though, might want to mess around with that lol.

 

[Ruffles]

After having done extensive testing, Bulky Starmie is really fucking good in this meta and Hydreigon is actually p good too. The omnipresence of psychic-types really does help it in the meta and that's not to mention its fantastic synergy with the monster that is Mega Metagross. In my opinion, Life Orb Hydreigon is much better than Scarf as I find Scarf Hydreigon's power to be relatively underwhelming and I also find the damage to be fundamental to wallbreaking for MegaGross. Lastly, I prefer the longevity provided from using Roost on the Life Orb set.

Seconding this man. Bulky Starmie rocks and Hydreigon is actually pretty decent in the meta.

Starmie: Bulky starmie is amazing, it honestly is a better spinner than Exca outside of sand, or at least a more reliable one. Burning many switch-ins that think their safe, such as Salamence and Metagross, is also really nice for the soul.

Hydreigon: Though I use Expert Belt > LO/Scarf and U-turn > Roost on Hydriegon, it still does the job very well. Expert Belt Hydreigon is actually a very amazing lure, doing decent damage with Dark Pulse to pokemons like Rotom-W and defensive Landorus-t, only to be bopped by a Draco and KO-d (Dark Pulse+Draco Meteor kill both Physically Defensive Rotom-W and 248/0 Lando-T). And, with Metagross, fairies are not a problem, otherwise I'd run LO Iron Tail or something shitty like that.

 

[Pac-man9]

After having done extensive testing, Bulky Starmie is really fucking good in this meta and Hydreigon is actually p good too. The omnipresence of psychic-types really does help it in the meta and that's not to mention its fantastic synergy with the monster that is Mega Metagross. In my opinion, Life Orb Hydreigon is much better than Scarf as I find Scarf Hydreigon's power to be relatively underwhelming and I also find the damage to be fundamental to wallbreaking for MegaGross. Lastly, I prefer the longevity provided from using Roost on the Life Orb set.

Only thing I was worried about when I made the Hydreigon and mega gross core, was the speed tier of Hydreigon. I originally wanted him to be able to handle garchomp and greninja, but I can see where you're going with the life orb set. I find the lack of power to be annoying at some times lol, and getting rid of landorus and rotom W easier seems like a great opportunity cost.
But how are you dealing with greninja and mence? I recommend Porygon2 with it's amazing bulk to shrug off both of their attacks, and just overall utility. Mega altaria and sabeleye weep

 

[Sgt. Stardust]

Is it just me or is Thundurus-T a lot better in ORAS? I've always found it a bit underrated anyway (but that was probably just because I love playing VoltTurn) but I think all the new fast megas make the scarf set a lot more viable. And it's a special scarfer that doesn't get set up on my M-Mence like Keldeo does. Not saying its a top tier threat or anything but I've been having sucess with it.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Just wondering.. would psycho shift be viable on M-latias at all or no? Seeing status is her biggest threat while being unable to status herself, she can get rid of her status and cripple something herself. (Such as paraflinch jirachi mentioned earlier) Sub will probably be better due to situational reasons but it's a thought..

 

[Gloating]

Is it just me or is Thundurus-T a lot better in ORAS? I've always found it a bit underrated anyway (but that was probably just because I love playing VoltTurn) but I think all the new fast megas make the scarf set a lot more viable. And it's a special scarfer that doesn't get set up on my M-Mence like Keldeo does. Not saying its a top tier threat or anything but I've been having sucess with it.

I think it's still the same as it was. You need to have some serious prediction skills to really make it work. And being locked into a move sucks because if you're locked into Thunderbolt or Superpower/Focus Blast then you're just asking for things to set up in your face. Being weak to Stealth Rock doesn't help either. If we're not talking about the Scarf set than Thundurus-I does everything else better.

Just wondering.. would psycho shift be viable on M-latias at all or no? Seeing status is her biggest threat while being unable to status herself, she can get rid of her status and cripple something herself. (Such as paraflinch jirachi mentioned earlier) Sub will probably be better due to situational reasons but it's a thought..

Psycho Shift works the same way as Refresh in that it gets rid of status but with the bonus of passing it on to something right? if so than yeah it's plenty viable on CM Latias. Though if it doesn't get rid of status if say a steel type like Heatran uses Toxic on it than it might not be worth it over Substitute.

 

[LoDart210]

Only thing I was worried about when I made the Hydreigon and mega gross core, was the speed tier of Hydreigon. I originally wanted him to be able to handle garchomp and greninja, but I can see where you're going with the life orb set. I find the lack of power to be annoying at some times lol, and getting rid of landorus and rotom W easier seems like a great opportunity cost.
But how are you dealing with greninja and mence? I recommend Porygon2 with it's amazing bulk to shrug off both of their attacks, and just overall utility. Mega altaria and sabeleye weep

Is there any merit to modest scarf hydreigon? I ran it back in the black and white heyday's and never had trouble outspeeding what I needed to. It hits fantastically hard too!


Also can someone illuminate me on how bulky starmie works? Love the dude and would like to use him in more ways than just s fantastic offensive spinner!

Is it just me or is Thundurus-T a lot better in ORAS? I've always found it a bit underrated anyway (but that was probably just because I love playing VoltTurn) but I think all the new fast megas make the scarf set a lot more viable. And it's a special scarfer that doesn't get set up on my M-Mence like Keldeo does. Not saying its a top tier threat or anything but I've been having sucess with it.

Can it afford to run modest? 101 scarf doesn't need timid to outspeed non scarf musketeers and 110's

In which case volt switch and hp ice are staple alongside a lot of other options from dark pulse to focus blast to grass knot. He might actually make a resurgence!

 

[Pagoose]

yeah if you actually read my post this wouldn't have been necessary

i literally never said gothitelle is bad, i said that set was bad and a waste of a pokemon, as in, hint hint, gothitelle is a good pokemon but that's a bad set, as you sacrifice much appreciated coverage for the sake of longevity on a mon that doesn't need even need it. i never said gothitelle was bad, i said the trickrest set was, so next time you go on a rant try to have an idea of what exactly the reason is, friendo, or even if there is one. and as for defending the set idk why you're doing that, it isn't good, use trick + 3 attacks

You should just consider rest like any other move on gothitelle; hp fire lets it beat ferrothorn, thunderbolt lets it beat slowbro/alomomola/skarmory, etc. All rest does it let it beat chansey, clefable, heatran, and a few other mons that you actually can't beat running other coverage moves. Rest isnt for longevity or anything like that, it is just a move used to beat certain mons, just as you would use attacks like thunderbolt or hp fire to beat certain mons. I don't see what the problem is with using rest in order to eliminate pokemon your team team is weak to, which is kinda the purpose of gothitelle.

 

[MANNAT]

Also, psychic+ghost is nearly perfect coverage, so mega Latias can OHKO many threats after a couple CMs. With her bulk, setting up will not be a problem, and even has roost to reliably recover the HP she loses while setting up. The biggest problem with CM mega Latias is that it faces huge competition for a mega slot and it doesn't differentiate itself from its regular form as much as other megas do.

 

[QuickBH]

Also, psychic+ghost is nearly perfect coverage, so mega Latias can OHKO many threats after a couple CMs. With her bulk, setting up will not be a problem, and even has roost to reliably recover the HP she loses while setting up. The biggest problem with CM mega Latias is that it faces huge competition for a mega slot and it doesn't differentiate itself from its regular form as much as other megas do.

Psychic+Ghost is resistant to any known Dark type in the meta besides Mega Sableye, if you're going to run a second move, why would you run Shadow Ball over Dragon Pulse when that is your biggest problem? Also, how is Mega Latias not really different than normal Latias. The Mega varient is a bulky sweeper while the normal form is an offensive Pokemon who provides utility for her team at the same time with moves such as Defog and Healing Wish.

 

[MANNAT]

Psychic+Ghost is resistant to any known Dark type in the meta besides Mega Sableye, if you're going to run a second move, why would you run Shadow Ball over Dragon Pulse when that is your biggest problem? Also, how is Mega Latias not really different than normal Latias. The Mega varient is a bulky sweeper while the normal form is an offensive Pokemon who provides utility for her team at the same time with moves such as Defog and Healing Wish.

A
There are so many fairy and steel types in the tier that a secondary STAB of dragon would be redundant coverage. Also, Regular Latias can run a bulky CM set almost as well, but it trades bulk for passive healing in leftovers whereas other megas get game-changing abilities or stat boosts that lift them out of obscurity instead of making them go from a good OU poke to an even better one.

 

[AM]

A
There are so many fairy and steel types in the tier that a secondary STAB of dragon would be redundant coverage. Also, Regular Latias can run a bulky CM set almost as well, but it trades bulk for passive healing in leftovers whereas other megas get game-changing abilities or stat boosts that lift them out of obscurity instead of making them go from a good OU poke to an even better one.

M-Latias' is definitely not obscurity by any means. Its significant increase in bulk differentiates between the two forms completely and as such makes certain sets more viable on one than the other. Dragon Pulse might not be the greatest of coverage but it's not redundant as after a couple of CM boosts hits extremely hard on non resists unless they're extremely bulky. Also why are you trying to hit these Fairy and Steel type moves with Dragon Pulse when M-Latias should have and always will have partners to handle these issues such as Heatran and Terrakion. A set of Psyshock/Stored Power, Dragon Pulse, Roost, Calm Mind works perfectly fine and if Dragon Pulse isn't your thing it can be swapped for something like HP Fire/HP Fighting. Shadow Ball only provides neutral coverage on things you should simply have answers for already and with M-Latias and her bulk you actually cheese your way through even certain resisters of said coverage.

 

[WebBowser]

Latias@Leftovers
Timid Nature
160hp 96satk 252Spe
Dragon Pulse
Thunderbolt
Roost/Recover
Psych Up

This came to mind as a check to Mega Slowbro, more specifically, the CroBro set. What this lets me do is spam TBolt on it until it rests, then swipe its Calm Minds with Psych Up and keep going. I originally wanted to use Taunt on Latias, but it oddly enough seems to be the only poke in OU that doesn't get it (alongside Latios). Weirdly enough, I thought of Psych Up when looking through its movepool and was inspired by Regice (of all things) to use it in tandem with TBolt. For those who don't know, Special Defensive Regice used Psych Up in RSE to beat CroCune and other CM-spammers, and this does the same thing but trades raw bulk for speed, reliable recovery, and a better defensive typing (and a touch more power). I never used it a lot in the games I played, but it's nice to have in the back for Slowbro-M, Zard-Y, Keldeo, Lando-I (the latter two like Calm Minding out of nowhere and Psych Up trolls the hell out of them), and the occasional CroCune or even more occasional BP team (I used it once against BP and nearly laughed myself to death, mind that Psych Up ignores Sub and Magic Bounce).

The main issue with trying to use psych up to beat BP is that espeon (the most common receiver by far) pretty much wins any boosting war by virtue of stored power. If you bring in latias early on into CM espy, then you're basically getting into a CM war that you will not win. If you bring it in too late, then you are simply OHKO'd. I'm sure that it works well against other CMers (beware of CM unaware clefable though, or CM clefable in general really), but I'm not seeing how this checks BP at all.

 

[MANNAT]

M-Latias' is definitely not obscurity by any means. Its significant increase in bulk differentiates between the two forms completely and as such makes certain sets more viable on one than the other. Dragon Pulse might not be the greatest of coverage but it's not redundant as after a couple of CM boosts hits extremely hard on non resists unless they're extremely bulky. Also why are you trying to hit these Fairy and Steel type moves with Dragon Pulse when M-Latias should have and always will have partners to handle these issues such as Heatran and Terrakion. A set of Psyshock/Stored Power, Dragon Pulse, Roost, Calm Mind works perfectly fine and if Dragon Pulse isn't your thing it can be swapped for something like HP Fire/HP Fighting. Shadow Ball only provides neutral coverage on things you should simply have answers for already and with M-Latias and her bulk you actually cheese your way through even certain resisters of said coverage.

I was saying that other megas lift obscure Pokemon into the limelight like lopunny and sceptile. However, your reasoning for using dragon pulse over psyshock makes a lot of sense. I'm just one who likes to look at things as if they're the only team members so that they can achieve the highest efficiency against the rest of the tier.

BTW: has anyone found out a usable darmanitan-z set yet?Or is it impossible to use in any way shape or form?

 

[AM]

The main issue with trying to use psych up to beat BP is that espeon (the most common receiver by far) pretty much wins any boosting war by virtue of stored power. If you bring in latias early on CM espy, then you're basically getting into a CM war that you will not win. If you bring it in too late, then you are simply OHKO'd. I'm sure that it works well against other CMers (beware of CM unaware clefable though, or CM clefable in general really), but I'm not seeing how this checks BP at all.

Yeah the set itself isn't necessarily that fantastic against BP considering the virtue of how they're run and what they used. I do think it's an interesting set for more like M-Latias or M-Latios to break stuff like CM M-Slowbro with much more ease. That's where I think it would actually serve its purpose much better.

 

[QuickBH]

I was saying that other megas lift obscure Pokemon into the limelight like lopunny and sceptile

So wait, Latias is a bad Pokemon because unlike the other Megas she already starts out as a good Pokemon? That sounds like a good thing to mean because now she has so many more switch-ins compared to other Megas.

 

[MANNAT]

So wait, Latias is a bad Pokemon because unlike the other Megas she already starts out as a good Pokemon? That sounds like a good thing to mean because now she has so many more switch-ins compared to other Megas.

my point was that Latias' mega affects it less than other megas do.

 

[Josh Morales]

Seconding this man. Bulky Starmie rocks and Hydreigon is actually pretty decent in the meta.

Starmie: Bulky starmie is amazing, it honestly is a better spinner than Exca outside of sand, or at least a more reliable one. Burning many switch-ins that think their safe, such as Salamence and Metagross, is also really nice for the soul.

I absolutely love the concept of Reflect Type as well. It's one pf those moves that just seems so gimmicky, but it's actually incredibly useful for allowing Starmie to do its job. Use it against Ferrothorn and you can't be Leech Seeded, wear it down with Scald and burn damage, Recovery lost health from Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet after Rapid Spinning and Gyro Ball or Power Whipe which won't be doing crap, and you can safely Rapid Spin if it tries to set up hazards in your face. Use it against Bisharp to end up walling it and wearing it down with Scald. Use it against Magnezone trying to fire off a free Volt Switch and take sweet FA from it. Reflect Type is just so surprisingly practical it's awesome.

Hydreigon: Though I use Expert Belt > LO/Scarf and U-turn > Roost on Hydriegon, it still does the job very well. Expert Belt Hydreigon is actually a very amazing lure, doing decent damage with Dark Pulse to pokemons like Rotom-W and defensive Landorus-t, only to be bopped by a Draco and KO-d (Dark Pulse+Draco Meteor kill both Physically Defensive Rotom-W and 248/0 Lando-T). And, with Metagross, fairies are not a problem, otherwise I'd run LO Iron Tail or something shitty like that.

Lure Hydrei is pretty sick too, but the Mega Metagross team I made with Hydreigon doesn't really benefit from it.

 

[Albacore]

IMO if you're going to run a secondary attacking move on CM SP MLatias over Substitute, it should be either Dazzling Gleam or HP Fighting. The only things which wall that set are Dark types, the only relevant ones in OU being Bisharp, Tyranitar, Crawdaunt, Greninja, Mandibuzz, and Sableye. Dazzling Gleam lets you 2HKO MSableye and well as hit Mandibuzz for okay damage, and OHKOs Crawdaunt. However, HP Fighting clean OHKOs Bisharp even without investment or a boost, and deals a good chunk of damage to TTar too. Both of these moves 2HKO Dark Pulse Greninja. It all depends on whether you want to be walled by MSableye or by Bisharp essentially.

edit : lol nvm it doesn't get dazzling gleam fsr... and since HP Fairy isn't a thing i guess your best option vs MSableye is Dragon Pulse which isn't even guaranteed to 3HKO. Better run HP Fighting and just let something else deal with MSableye I guess.

However, I really wouldn't run a secondary attack on CM SP MLatias, the ability to avoid status is too important imo. However, I think Refresh is actually a decent option over Substitute. It's not quite as good vs offense and it doesn't stop Ferrothorn from leech seeding you (though you still use it as setup fodder), but it's much better vs stall since you don't have to predict whether Chansey is going to Seismic Toss or Toxic and stuff like that.

I actually find Starmie less effective in this metagame tbh. Bulky Reflect Type was already a great set in XY OU, but now with all the faster stuff+the fact that Sableye completely and utterly stops it meaning that you'll never get rocks off vs stall it's not nearly as reliable is it was.

also idk if anyone mentioned this yet but MAero is ridiculously good. No-one prepares for it at all and it just stomps over so many teams. Checks all of the fast megas and is one of the best answers to MMence there is.