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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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See, the problem with this is it's entirely unreliable. . . The keywords in this being "IF". You're right, IF it doesn't carry X move, Y 'mon checks him, which is what his team mates are for. But it isn't exactly a reliable check until you've seen every move Ninja is carrying, most times you won't do so until late game if played correctly. Greninja has no idea what a counter is, and he hardly knows what a check is.
Greninja won't be going anywhere
Whenever alexwolf feels as if there are strong enough arguments for the nominations that have been made, there isn't really a set time for him to do it.
As it stands right now, Megas and their regular forms are ranked separately. Tyranitar's ranking really shouldn't impact Mega Tyranitar's ranking because they play differently from each other. There's no reason to suddenly drop Mega Garchomp, Mega Gyarados, Mega TTar and Mega Scizor a rank because they have viable regular forms, it's not like they are interchangeable parts. I can't just decide I'm using Mega Altaria on my team and turn my DD Mega Tyranitar into a regular DD TTar. Regular Garchomp isn't ranked in any part based on what Mega Garchomp can do at all, that's what Mega Garchomp's ranking is for.
Basically, it doesn't matter how viable regular Tyranitar is, if you don't want to use Mega Tyranitar, you find another DDer like Dragonite over using DD regular Tyranitar.
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Thx a lot, those are super handy, and feel free to post more when they are made.
Here's the sprites we have for the new Megas so far (ripped from ones available in the demo). Saw that the first post didn't have them. (If a mod thinks this post is unnecessary here feel free to delete or whatever is needed.)
Also, updates will happen whenever everyone on the ranking team has voted and enough arguments have been made in this thread.
So, as far as Thundurus-I goes, the consensus is that it should go to S rank due to T-wave support being very useful for the new mega evolutions, as well as the 111 base speed, which is great for the new meta, considering how much stuff is cramped into the 110 base speed group. Are there any arguments against this?
I deeply support dropping Garchomp from A+ to A Rank. Quite literally, Garchomp's speed is not what it used to be. It is literally outsped by way too many important Pokemon to be of any use against offense, and quite literally, its only set worth using is some sort of Life Orb Swords Dance set that can do more work against balanced and defensive teams where there are not as many as fast Pokemon to worry about, but that is still not that helpful against offensive teams. Of course, there is Choice Scarf for reveng killing Dragon Dance Zard X and non-Substitute Mega Salamence, but most Salamence, from what I have seen, run Substitute anyways, and aside from outspeeding all Zard X, there is no reason to Garchomp as a Choice Scarf user over Choice Scarf Landorus-T, which as U-turn to keep up the momentum, and Intimidate to pivot into a lot of thing. If Garchomp had like base 112 Speed, I could consider changing my stance on it, as outspeeding Keldeo, Mega Gallade + Metagross, Thundurus, and Lati@s would elevate Garchomp's usefulness against offense by a large margin, but since that is probably not going to happen, I propose we drop Garchomp to A Rank.
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thought i'd just voice my thoughts on a few mons
S Rank
-> A+. This is a pretty definite one. Don't get me wrong, DD Mega Charizard X, especially the awesome Jolly set, is good and actually does very well against a lot of teams in this metagame. But, there are a few problems for Mega Charizard X. The bulky Will-O-Wisp set that was the common defensive Mega of choice -- it was that or Mega Venusaur -- is nowhere to be seen simply because the opportunity cost of using it over another defensive Mega, aka Slowbro or Sableye. Both of these Pokemon provide much more defensive utility/threat coverage, with Slowbro's god-tier physical bulk letting it singlehandedly stop so many special attackers and Sableye just bringing so much utility with awesome bulk, a win con, exemplary hazard control, a spinblocker, etc., plus beating it at the whole burn spreading and disruptive role. Like I guess you could come up with some reasons by it works, but the opportunity cost is too high to justify it as any sort of defensive mon/breaker in this metagame. The DD set, while again very effective, struggles to see use with Mega Salamence especially but also Mega Altaria which IMO outclasses it in many aspects as a DDer populating the tier. A+ is plenty fair for a Pokemon that just isn't as dominant as it used to be.
-> S. I guess I can see why people want to drop this, but honestly I disagree. The first thing many people are bringing up is Speed creep, which I actually think is favorable for Keldeo. Greninja improving and not running Extrasensory is also favorable for Keldeo. This is because these things allow Scarf Keldeo to really shine as the best offensive Greninja check and an excellent check/revenge killer for many of these new Megas, including non-Jolly Mence due to Icy Wind. These traits allow this set to shine in this metagame, and the Specs set has perhaps gotten better too with old foes like Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur falling into sort of obscurity, while more players are utilizing mons like Latios, Latias, Rotom-W, and Slowbro as their Keldeo checks. These Pokemon are much less sturdy and/or unreliable and/or easier to take advantage of, especially with the Pursuit weakness of the Latis. Pretty much, people are overplaying the Speed creep because it just makes Scarf Keldeo amazing, and Specs Keldeo is stronger due to people not using the same resilient counters. So how has Keldeo gotten worse again?
-> S. Why would you want this dropped? The most defining Pokemon of XY may have decreased in effectiveness a little bit, but it's certainly still more than dominant enough to stay where it is. First of all, there's the rise of Scarf Latios, which sort of like Scarf Keldeo has emerged as a preeminent revenge killer for some of the new Megas, including revenging Mega Mence so long as it doesn't have a Sub up and potentially surprising Pokemon like Lopunny, Beedrill, and Sceptile. It also cripples mons like Clefable and Chansey that would be regarded as pretty solid counters to it. Sure there's Mega Metagross, but it's not like it doesn't take half from Draco Meteor if it wants to switch in (from the LO set, not Scarf, though Scarf still does a bunch of damage). Latios's defensive niche of checking mons like Landorus-I, Keldeo, and Rotom-W still cannot be underrated, and its array of coverage options (HP Fire and EQ being the most common ones) making it a pretty unpredictable foe to face. What's more, new Megas like Beedrill, Altaria, and Salamence appreciate the Defog support, giving Latios an offensive niche on teams. And then there's Tailwind, which I know TheEnder has been experimenting with and I've used a bit, which can be a really scary, unexpected, and clutch support option for teammates. Latios's sets are just adapting to the metagame, and it is still a very dominant presence in the tier.
A+ Rank
-> A. Azumarill just isn't what it was in this metagame. Perhaps one of the Pokemon that took the largest falls in ORAS, Azumarill is suffering from some of these new changes. While on one token it can do well against threats like Mega Salamence, Mega Gallade, and Mega Sableye (after it's Mega Evolved), there are other issues that restrict it. First of all, Ferrothorn and Rotom-W have perhaps become even more common as methods of combating some of these new threats, which is nothing but negative for Azumarill. Furthermore, it's just getting messed up by Mega Metagross, and giving such a threat free hits is never something you want. The Assault Vest set that was king in XY is faltering with the inability to check Greninja effectively due to Gunk Shot and the lack of power compared to CB or BD really crippling it. While those sets can be effective, Azumarill is just lacking the sheer threat to common late XY offense that it had, which made it so good. I could actually see this debatably sticking around in A+ or maybe moving back up in the future, but moving it down would be wise at this time.
-> A. This is more of a fact that Mega Salamence is in the metagame than anything else, as well as Mega Altaria. It's still a good wallbreaker, but Mega Salamence is too much of a presence for it (though you can run Wisp to cripple that, I haven't tested Zard Y extensively enough to know how effective that kind of set is in this metagame).
-> A+/S (on the fence). I know firsthand why this thing is so good. It's a crazy strong Pokemon with those 165 Attack CC's, especially Swords Dance-boosted, combined with other coverage (Knock Off, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt) to smack around all kinds of common Pokemon and in general have very few answers. Speed creep means nothing for this mon, as it beats things like Greninja and Sceptile 1v1 anyways. Landorus-T 'the counter' with the defensive set is liable to being worn down, and then there's Ice Punch which is very good on Gallade and pops that. Altaria's no problem with Ice Punch either besides variants running heavy defensive investment, and even then they have to be at high health to handle it. There are a few things that hold me back from putting it in S Rank, though, and that's why I'm on the fence. First of all, Mega Sableye stall is common, and Mega Gallade is completely and utterly useless, even a liability, against that archetype. Plain and simple. Being such a liability against these teams practically requires a solid Fairy, as in Clefable or Sylveon, as a teammate, which can be kind of restricting. It also hates Mence, completely and utterly, and that being so common hurts it for sure. Furthermore, it really doesn't provide much in the way of defensive synergy for a team, as it's really lacking in relevant resistances, unlike other sweeping Megas we got from ORAS. Altogether, this is borderline S, but I am not so sure with some of these things holding it back. Some points for discussion I suppose.
S Rank
-> S. I guess I can see why people want to drop this, but honestly I disagree. The first thing many people are bringing up is Speed creep, which I actually think is favorable for Keldeo. Greninja improving and not running Extrasensory is also favorable for Keldeo. This is because these things allow Scarf Keldeo to really shine as the best offensive Greninja check and an excellent check/revenge killer for many of these new Megas, including non-Jolly Mence due to Icy Wind. These traits allow this set to shine in this metagame, and the Specs set has perhaps gotten better too with old foes like Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur falling into sort of obscurity, while more players are utilizing mons like Latios, Latias, Rotom-W, and Slowbro as their Keldeo checks. These Pokemon are much less sturdy and/or unreliable and/or easier to take advantage of, especially with the Pursuit weakness of the Latis. Pretty much, people are overplaying the Speed creep because it just makes Scarf Keldeo amazing, and Specs Keldeo is stronger due to people not using the same resilient counters. So how has Keldeo gotten worse again?
A+ Rank
thought i'd just voice my thoughts on a few mons
S Rank
-> A+. This is a pretty definite one. Don't get me wrong, DD Mega Charizard X, especially the awesome Jolly set, is good and actually does very well against a lot of teams in this metagame. But, there are a few problems for Mega Charizard X. The bulky Will-O-Wisp set that was the common defensive Mega of choice -- it was that or Mega Venusaur -- is nowhere to be seen simply because the opportunity cost of using it over another defensive Mega, aka Slowbro or Sableye. Both of these Pokemon provide much more defensive utility/threat coverage, with Slowbro's god-tier physical bulk letting it singlehandedly stop so many special attackers and Sableye just bringing so much utility with awesome bulk, a win con, exemplary hazard control, a spinblocker, etc., plus beating it at the whole burn spreading and disruptive role. Like I guess you could come up with some reasons by it works, but the opportunity cost is too high to justify it as any sort of defensive mon/breaker in this metagame. The DD set, while again very effective, struggles to see use with Mega Salamence especially but also Mega Altaria which IMO outclasses it in many aspects as a DDer populating the tier. A+ is plenty fair for a Pokemon that just isn't as dominant as it used to be.
-> S. Why would you want this dropped? The most defining Pokemon of XY may have decreased in effectiveness a little bit, but it's certainly still more than dominant enough to stay where it is. First of all, there's the rise of Scarf Latios, which sort of like Scarf Keldeo has emerged as a preeminent revenge killer for some of the new Megas, including revenging Mega Mence so long as it doesn't have a Sub up and potentially surprising Pokemon like Lopunny, Beedrill, and Sceptile. It also cripples mons like Clefable and Chansey that would be regarded as pretty solid counters to it. Sure there's Mega Metagross, but it's not like it doesn't take half from Draco Meteor if it wants to switch in (from the LO set, not Scarf, though Scarf still does a bunch of damage). Latios's defensive niche of checking mons like Landorus-I, Keldeo, and Rotom-W still cannot be underrated, and its array of coverage options (HP Fire and EQ being the most common ones) making it a pretty unpredictable foe to face. What's more, new Megas like Beedrill, Altaria, and Salamence appreciate the Defog support, giving Latios an offensive niche on teams. And then there's Tailwind, which I know TheEnder has been experimenting with and I've used a bit, which can be a really scary, unexpected, and clutch support option for teammates. Latios's sets are just adapting to the metagame, and it is still a very dominant presence in the tier.
A+ Rank
-> A. Azumarill just isn't what it was in this metagame. Perhaps one of the Pokemon that took the largest falls in ORAS, Azumarill is suffering from some of these new changes. While on one token it can do well against threats like Mega Salamence, Mega Gallade, and Mega Sableye (after it's Mega Evolved), there are other issues that restrict it. First of all, Ferrothorn and Rotom-W have perhaps become even more common as methods of combating some of these new threats, which is nothing but negative for Azumarill. Furthermore, it's just getting messed up by Mega Metagross, and giving such a threat free hits is never something you want. The Assault Vest set that was king in XY is faltering with the inability to check Greninja effectively due to Gunk Shot and the lack of power compared to CB or BD really crippling it. While those sets can be effective, Azumarill is just lacking the sheer threat to common late XY offense that it had, which made it so good. I could actually see this debatably sticking around in A+ or maybe moving back up in the future, but moving it down would be wise at this time.
-> A. This is more of a fact that Mega Salamence is in the metagame than anything else, as well as Mega Altaria. It's still a good wallbreaker, but Mega Salamence is too much of a presence for it (though you can run Wisp to cripple that, I haven't tested Zard Y extensively enough to know how effective that kind of set is in this metagame).
-> A+/S (on the fence). I know firsthand why this thing is so good. It's a crazy strong Pokemon with those 165 Attack CC's, especially Swords Dance-boosted, combined with other coverage (Knock Off, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt) to smack around all kinds of common Pokemon and in general have very few answers. Speed creep means nothing for this mon, as it beats things like Greninja and Sceptile 1v1 anyways. Landorus-T 'the counter' with the defensive set is liable to being worn down, and then there's Ice Punch which is very good on Gallade and pops that. Altaria's no problem with Ice Punch either besides variants running heavy defensive investment, and even then they have to be at high health to handle it. There are a few things that hold me back from putting it in S Rank, though, and that's why I'm on the fence. First of all, Mega Sableye stall is common, and Mega Gallade is completely and utterly useless, even a liability, against that archetype. Plain and simple. Being such a liability against these teams practically requires a solid Fairy, as in Clefable or Sylveon, as a teammate, which can be kind of restricting. It also hates Mence, completely and utterly, and that being so common hurts it for sure. Furthermore, it really doesn't provide much in the way of defensive synergy for a team, as it's really lacking in relevant resistances, unlike other sweeping Megas we got from ORAS. Altogether, this is borderline S, but I am not so sure with some of these things holding it back. Some points for discussion I suppose.
So I'm gonna address all of these
Charizard X- agree but mostly because of mega sal, and once it gets banned I bet zard X goes back up
Keldeo- disagree, it needs to drop to A+, its really good but it isn't that bulky, and its speed just isnt as impressive anymore, choice specs/scarf are somewhat easy to play around and can land you in some bad spots if you are locked on to the wrong move and scarf is really underwhelming. Mega Sal destroys it, same with mega altaria along with mega metagross and mega gallade after they have mega evolved. It just doesnt seem as good to me and honestly it was barely S rank before all the new megas came out.
Latios- disagree, needs to drop to A+, sure it is a good defog user but more and more speedy pokemon keep showing up, mega metagross, mega diance, mega altaria all give it some trouble. Also mega diance and mega sabeleye give it a little competition for keeping hazards off the field. To me the biggest appeal of latios is as a defogger i mean putting a scarf on it does turn it into a solid revenge killer but there are better things to do this in my opinion.
Azumarill- agree, not too much to say, it just doesnt seem to fare as well in this meta.
Charizard Y- agree, it should go down to A for now but certainly not lower, part of it is that mega salamemce gives it trouble and altaria is a bit of a pain but it should also be noted that it does great vs mega slowbro, mega sabeleye, along with other pokemon like ferrothorn, rotom w, gliscor, mega venusaur and non scarf lando T. It also beats greninja 1v1, beats keldeo 1v1 and just had absurd amounts of power. Sure it faces alot of competition for a mega spot because of broken shit running around but still a great mon.
Mega Gallade- A+ people are acting like it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and sure it has a ton of power, and a solid move pool including shadow sneak for priority and Swords Dance. 110 base speed is nice but it only gets it after mega evolving and for a pokemon that isnt especially bulky this is a bit of a problem in such an offensive meta. It can get hit on the turn it mega evolves and then finished off by a scarf or priority. I think it is really good but i havent had a ton of trouble with it and just don't see it as defining enough to be S rank. A+ is a good spot for it.
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I disagree that Zard X should go down only because of Mega Salamence. New threats such as Mega Slowbro and Mega Altaria as well as higher usage of Scarf Latios and Keldeo make it's job harder as well as it's old checks and counters like Azumarill and defensive Lando-T. Wisp set also got worse because it struggles against Mega Diancie, Mega Slowbro and Mega Sableye. Stealth Rock also really hampers it's ability to come in when it wants to and I can't stress this enough. I'll explain in more detail. For example if rocks are up you can't even switch into things like Knock Off comfortably without Defogging or spinning them away first. Also you take a whole turn to Defog or spin them away which can give your opponent the advantage. It's things like that that make it difficult for Zard to come in. Everyone who has used Zard knows what I'm talking about. Combine this with Flare Blitz you almost always want to run Roost which in turn leaves you walled by Heatran and checked easier by Mega Diancie and Tyranitar. I'm not saying Zard X is bad by any means, once it's counters/checks are gone it steamrolls trough teams and also does well against some non sand offense teams but it's simply not S.
Also my thoughts on some other things:
Latios: Not sure if this should drop or not. I do find myself using it on most teams though. It's an amazing glue Pokemon that always does it's job. It also has neat options in Earthquake and HP Fire/Fighting making things like Bisharp, Heatran and Tyranitar not completely safe answers. Sick speed tier outspeeds a lot of things including Mence before Mega evolving.
Keldeo: Keldeo is still a great Pokemon and probably the best spammer of Scald and a good check to Bisharp which Hyper Offensive teams really struggle against. Agree that it hasn't really got worse and if anything it now has more viable sets in Scarf and CM. Keep in S.
Also my thoughts on some other things:
Latios: Not sure if this should drop or not. I do find myself using it on most teams though. It's an amazing glue Pokemon that always does it's job. It also has neat options in Earthquake and HP Fire/Fighting making things like Bisharp, Heatran and Tyranitar not completely safe answers. Sick speed tier outspeeds a lot of things including Mence before Mega evolving.
Keldeo: Keldeo is still a great Pokemon and probably the best spammer of Scald and a good check to Bisharp which Hyper Offensive teams really struggle against. Agree that it hasn't really got worse and if anything it now has more viable sets in Scarf and CM. Keep in S.
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how is disagreeing about the effectiveness of choice sets for latios and keldeo and providing an opinion about mega gallade's placement not relevant. Also in reguards to scarf latios being a revenge killer for salamamence without a sub, first off it could have DD and if not you switching in a Latios is a complete give away that you have a scarf because it would be a terrible idea otherwise. This means it can switch out and you can stuck on draco meteor. It just seems cooler in theory than in pracitce, plenty of other pokemon can check the other threats you mentioned. Tailwind could be cool i guess but you only get so many moveslots, latios wants to run draco meteor, psyshock defog, thunderbolt, icebeam roost and now tailwind?
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With regards to Keldeo you pretty much just raised the same points that Jukain already did a pretty good job disproving.
Gallade I just don't feel is S-Rank material. As others have already said, it has only base 80 speed on the turn it Mega evolves.
A counter argument would be that you just volt turn it in on something slow that it threatens, but requiring a volt turn core is quite a lot of support. Also against fast offensive teams finding opportunities to mega can prove to be difficult.
Once Gallade is mega'd there's no doubt its a beast, although another problem is that its going to have a really hard time breaking through any stall team that packs a Mega Slowbro or Mega Sableye.
Maybe its just a testament to how good/overpowered Bro and Sableye are, but you are going to lose tonnes of momentum if you try to even use gallade with these two around. I found that when you only have 6 Pokemon to choose from, you often become a bit dependant on Gallade to break stall. To make it work it just needs too much support for it to be S. A+ suits it just fine IMO.
BTW can we just move Sableye and bro up to at least A+? Its going to most likely happen anyway and we can open up the discussion a bit more. Regular Scizor should also get a quick sharp rise so when the time comes we can compare it against other stuff that its now on the same level with.
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thought i'd just voice my thoughts on a few mons
I personally never wanted keldeo in S rank mainly because I think scald is the only reason it is perceived as "S- rank material". But I understand that firing off choiced scarf/specs scalds has literally 0 drawbacks, so I didnt mind when it went to S, just kind of disagreed from a moral standpoint of I think scald is gay. But now If I look at keldeo objectively, I will just start off by saying it is in no way shape or form S rank. It has 3-4 sets that all only really differ by 1-2 moves, its most popular being choiced sets, and even from there it has to decide if it wants to give up speed or power, a decision like that is not characteristic of an S rank pokemon. It just seems that whatever set it ends up picking is only useful against a certain team style, because most of the offensive teams I have seen lately have about 4 mons that can outspeed and OHKO keldeo, while most defensive/stall teams are able to easily shrug off scarf scalds. The argument that you are giving certainly seems like an argument for a mon in A+, because it has a few versatile sets with good qualities, but each one comes with its own drawbacks. Maybe it is just because some of the other S mons are broken af, but when you compare greninja or thundurus( lets not compare salamence) who can run one set and be effective in all battles, it makes keldeo pale in comparison. Another thing that you mentioned Jukain is that its main problems like venu and amoongus have died out so to speak, and the checks/counters that replaced them are marginally easier to take out, but I have also seen a rise in bulky psychic types that can pretty easily shake off keldeos hits. And I also agree that latios should stay S rank, which is another issue for keldeo. Speaking of bulky psychics, with the increase in usage of wobbufet and gothitelle, keldeo finds itself questioning whether its worth it to get choiced locked into a move only to risk getting trapped and KOd. I really never see keldeo being too big of issue, at least from my experience on the ladder, I mean if we look at over half the mons in A+ we see that they can beat keldeo 1v1 in almost every situation, I just think A+ is a perfectly suitable place for him atm.
Ill try and sum this up in a concise way, Keldeo should move down to A+ because while it does have effective sets that are each powerful in their own way, it finds itself choosing to either give up speed or power which can limit its usefulness against certain teams. An (offensive) S rank mon should be able to have both speed and power and not have to choose from sets that can limit its effectiveness against common playstyles, keldeo does not fit this bill and should move down to A+. But yeah thats just my 2 cents thrown in to the conversation.
That being said I agree with all other changes that you mentioned, and think gallade can definitely be S rank, just maybe not right now.
I understand your logic but I'm going to have to *politely* disagree here. speed creeps are a detriment to keldeo in the long run bc of the overall limitations it places on keldeo. calm mind keldeo, choice specs keldeo and life orb keldeo all lose a little viability with so many fast and powerful megas being introduced in oras ou. while i believe that keldeo is a potent check/revenge killer with a scarf equipped, oras is not as forgiving for keldeo. in xy, scarf keldeo could hit a fair number of top tier pokemon super-effectively which ultimately led to favorable matchups in many scenarios. in oras, this is much less so and in fact, the new megas are capable of heavily punishing not only keldeo but entire teams for locking it into one move. look at mega mence, mega slowbro, mega altaria, mega lati@s and mega gallade. these pokemon are capable of setting up on scarfed keldeo and quite literally call game, with one turn to set-up. specs keldeo is much harder to wall now that mega venusaur is less common. i'll give you that. however, lati@s and slowbro all run some form of recovery so i do believe that they are still reliable checks. not to mention the fact that the three aforementioned mons all have a new mega as well.
ultimately, i am not downplaying keldeo's strength as a pokemon. that much is undeniable and the few times i've tampered with oras ou, keldeo has proven itself a consistent win-condition. the only reason it isn't s-rank material (for early oras meta), is because the influx of speed and power is really unhealthy and keldeo isn't too much of the "low-risk and high-reward" mon it definitively was in xy ou
Regarding Keldeo, you ignored new checks that Keldeo gained, such as Mega Sceptile, Mega Altaria, and Sub Mega Salamence (Keldeo locked into anything other than Icy Wins is set up bait for it), all of which make Keldeo much more prediction reliant than it used to be, now that it can't just spam Scald for free, because there are dangerous Pokemon waiting to take advantage of it. I agree that Scarf Keldeo is one of the best checks to Greninja for offense, but Keldeo is just not on par with the rest of the Pokemon that reside or should be in S rank, such as Mega Metagross, Mega Salamence, Greninja, and even Thundurus. Also, the influx of faster Pokemon is definitely a bad thing for Keldeo, because it either has to use Scarf to fair well against offense and suck against stall, or use Specs to break defensive cores but get outsped by half the members on your typical offensive team. If Keldeo was barely S rank material in XY, a notion most people agree with, no way it's S rank now that the S rank standards are way higher.
-> S. Why would you want this dropped? The most defining Pokemon of XY may have decreased in effectiveness a little bit, but it's certainly still more than dominant enough to stay where it is. First of all, there's the rise of Scarf Latios, which sort of like Scarf Keldeo has emerged as a preeminent revenge killer for some of the new Megas, including revenging Mega Mence so long as it doesn't have a Sub up and potentially surprising Pokemon like Lopunny, Beedrill, and Sceptile. It also cripples mons like Clefable and Chansey that would be regarded as pretty solid counters to it. Sure there's Mega Metagross, but it's not like it doesn't take half from Draco Meteor if it wants to switch in (from the LO set, not Scarf, though Scarf still does a bunch of damage). Latios's defensive niche of checking mons like Landorus-I, Keldeo, and Rotom-W still cannot be underrated, and its array of coverage options (HP Fire and EQ being the most common ones) making it a pretty unpredictable foe to face. What's more, new Megas like Beedrill, Altaria, and Salamence appreciate the Defog support, giving Latios an offensive niche on teams. And then there's Tailwind, which I know TheEnder has been experimenting with and I've used a bit, which can be a really scary, unexpected, and clutch support option for teammates. Latios's sets are just adapting to the metagame, and it is still a very dominant presence in the tier.
Same for Latios, you just ignored new hard checks or counters he received, such as Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, and Mega Diancie, as well as faster offensive Pokemon that can OHKO it, such as Mega Sceptile and Mega Beedrill. It doesn't matter if Mega Metagross can only switch into Latios once, because the opponent won't be using it as his sole Latios check. What matters is that offensive teams now have the option of using Lati@s checks that don't forfeit momentum, where in XY, there were much fewer offensive checks to them, such as Mega Gardevoir and Scarf Tyranitar. With those new MEvos, you can switch into Lati@s and simultaneously put the opponent on the defensive. Finally, some balanced teams have the option to use Mega Sableye instead of Latios for hazard control, giving to Latios more competition for the anti-hazard role.
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I agree with Mega Zard X for A+ because of new checks, more scarfers able to revenge kill it, and more competition with better MEvos, but Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie are not really troubling to the Wisp set. Mega Sableye is 2HKOed by Adamant Flare Blitz, while Mega Diancie takes 75% minimum from Adamant EQ and 45% minimum from Adamant Flare Blitz. Also, bulky Mega Charizard X can use sets such as SD + dual STABs to get past Pokemon such as Mega Altaria and Mega Slowbro, so it's not like he doesn't have the versatility to deal with his new checks.Gloating said:
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I thought the Wisp set consisted of:
Roost
Will-O-Wisp
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
So yeah I'll give you Diancie but how is it getting past Mega Sableye? I guess you can run Flare Blitz over Dragon Claw but it's not very ideal as Talonflame sets up on you and running it over EQ opens a new problem in Heatran. Also SD set is not very effective in such a fast paced meta it's only good on paper. While it deals with Altaria better and Mega Slowbro (which not really because after 1 CM does a ton of damage with Scald 2HKOing Zard X) it now has trouble against HO since it can't boost it's speed making it easier to take care of.
EDIT: I meant to say that once they know your set doesn't have Dragon Claw, you give free switch ins to things like Talonflame. I know Zard X is not an answer to Talonflame.
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The bulky Wisp set consists of Roost + WoW and any combo of Dragon Claw, Flare Blitz, Fire Punch, and EQ. Charizard X is not a check to Talonflame anyway, so bringing it up is pointless. If your team is Talonflame weak and you don't want to give it set up room, go for Dragon Claw, but Flare Blitz is a perfectly viable option. Bulky SD's goal is not to sweep, but provide a reliable check to Pokemon such as Electric-types, Mew, Mega Scizor, Bisharp, Mega Charizard Y, Clefable, WoW Gengar, etc, and a bulky wallbreaker in one slot. And not doing well against a certain playstyle is not bad on itself, that's what you have teammates for, not to mention that bulky Mega Zard X checks some important offensive Pokemon that i already mentioned. You also said that SD Bulky Mega Zard can't really get past CM Mega Slowbro:
- +4 0+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Mega Def Slowbro: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 0 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Mega Charizard X: 105-124 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 5.2% chance to 3HKO
- +1 0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Mega Charizard X: 157-186 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
I'm starting to believe Talonflame should rise to S rank. With the help of Stealth Rock, Talonflame can now handle Mega Sableye, Gallade, Sceptile, Altaria and weakened Salamence very well, despite its 4x weakness to SR (to think of it, Charizard X has the same flaw).
I'm still testing it, though. What do you guys think?
I'm still testing it, though. What do you guys think?
Zard X can handle its SR weakness more because 1. It's not 4x weak after it mega evolves and 2. It's way bulkier and can roost against a lot more things. Talonflame is a great poke, but it needs too much hazard control to be S rank. It's definitely gained some utility in being able to revenge kill Sceptile and Gallade, but the mandatory defogger you have to run to keep it alive really restricts team-building.
No, it lacks the power behind it's moves, and although it can be compensated with band, it still hurts, and requires lot of team support. and i mean a lot, you're required to have a dedicated hazard removal, and if it goe so does talonflame. It's not exactly bulky either, even with investment on the stallbreaker/bulk up set. Charizard x doesn't quite have the same flaw, as it is bulkier and when mevo'd doesn't have a 4x weakness. In short, it's not going to be srank and will never be srank b/c of it's required team support.
Forgot to post this before so here it goes: Mega Gardevoir sgould stay in A+. Many people have suggested that Mega Gardevoir should drop to A due to the influx of all the new MEvos. However, Mega Gardevoir is still an excellent MEvo and still amazing at breaking down stall, while also being one of the best CM Mega Latias checks. Modest Hyper Voice has a 86.7% chance to 2HKO +2 max HP Mega Latias and goes through Sub, while Mega Gardevoir dgaf about Dragon Pulse or Stored Power. Offensive teams got faster, but Mega Gardevoir was outsped by half of your typical offensive team anyway, so i don't think she cares that much. If anything, she appreciates specially based scarfers such as Keldeo and Latios becoming more popular, because she can take advantage of them quite easily. In addition, Mega Gardevoir is a great Mega Sableye check, with Modest Hyper Voice having a 81% chance to OHKO +1 Mega Sableye, and is also a good Sub Mega Sceptile check, a very troubling Pokemon for many offensive teams. So, i think Mega Gardevoir should stay in A+ for now, assuming of course you found her to be A+ rank worthy in XY too.
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cha, mega gard is good as it's ever been. weak to new megas like mega gross, bee, and mence (lol) but totally shits on mega scept, sableye, non-dd altaria, even mega bro depending on the set. been using mega gard + bisharp a good amount, which i'd say has gotten even better in oras thanks to the influx of bulky psychic types and fast-but-frail shit to take advantage of. yeah, don't drop mega gard.
I personally feel that Mega Gardevoir should drop to A. Yeah, it's a great stallbreaker and stall is definitely viable in this meta, but stall hasn't gained enough traction in the general meta yet for those stallbreaking abilities to see much use. Once stall becomes more popular and people realize that there are playstyles other than Mence+Gren offense, it will be a lot better, but for now its stallbreaking abilities aren't as useful.
More importantly, the two most common Megas right now are Metagross and Salamence. Obviously, Metagross murders Gardevoir, but Salamence also outspeeds post-Evo and OHKOs it twice over with Return. Though Gardevoir's Speed was already middling, the introduction of more fast yet bulky Pokemon has hurt Gardevoir's viability. There's also a serious opportunity cost for Mega Gardevoir due to the influx of great new Megas, and I feel that Mega Gardevoir's frailty and middling speed seriously offsets the power that it has when there are other faster, bulkier options with comparable power that you could be using your Mega slot on. If Mence goes and stall becomes more dominant, I could easily see it in A+, but for now, A just seems like a better option.
From my experience on the ladder, stall is pretty common and pretty weak to Gardevoir, as stall teams have focused around dealing with all the new physical MEvos introduced and usually pack more physical walls than special ones. As for the point of more Pokemon faster than Mega Gardevoir existing, i already explained why this is not a big deal. Not to mention that of those faster threats, Mega Gardevoirs wins 1 on 1 or checks some of them, such as Mega Gallade, Mega Latias, and Mega Sceptile, while checking many of the slower ones, so her match-up against the new threats is overall more positive than negative.
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