The Action Replay debate.

[Fishin]

Well people who participate in official tournaments can't use hacked monsters and I doubt they all managed to capture or breed perfect monsters to have an equal standing with one another. I've been at a Nintendo Event were SPP staff members were talking about several Smogon users who were caught cheating, so I mean it's not that people haven't tried to enter using programs to create what appears to be legit monsters. Rather than go through extra expense for a game and hacking device, just play online for free with NB. Zero effort to build a team, perfect way to have fun on an equal playing field, and nobody has to wonder if foul play was involved in their loss.

That just means that the pokemon weren't hacked correctly. It's definitely possible to create hacked pokemon that pass all legitimacy tests, those people just didn't hack them right.

In that respect, though, I do think that "competitive" (by that, I mean official Nintendo tournaments and such) Pokemon has a serious flaw in it. In basically every other competitive game, everyone will have the same set of tools to work with. In a fighting game, for example, you all have the same roster of characters to pick from. In an RTS, you can choose from whatever race you want. But in Pokemon, the playing field is not equal - the pokemon you have most likely aren't going to have the same IV's as your opponent's, which makes "Official" tournaments much less balanced than unofficial ones held online.

Battles should be more of a test of your skills and the strategy you're implimenting to win as opposed to like.. a test to see who's a better hacker. A lot of people advise me to just stick to battling Smogon users, but with it's advertisement on places like Gaia Online, where the most popular users are the ones with Levitating Pichu with 800 HP and Fire Blast.. just kinda pisses me off that this place might be flooded with gimmicks soon.

Again, stuff like that isn't the type of hacking we're talking about. That sort of hacking is pretty much bannable anywhere, I doubt anyone would argue with that.

 

[Carl]

Seriously? "You can hack too" is a solution?!

Its unfair that someone has to PAY to get an even playing field with the person who "didnt have enough time" and took away the advantage that someone worked for.

Honestly, im all for an even playing field and if IVs were scrapped from the game design then that would be fine by me, but the matter of the fact is the game simply wasn't designed that way. IVs are there for a reason, it rewards people who put effort into the game.

Yes thats right effort, and effort takes time. Simply having "no time" is not an excuse and is unfair on the people who work for it

Again why should you have an advantage to begin with for simply having more time? I never said you had to pay for anything. It's all there in the game. If you want to waste hours on end breeding feel free. I won't stop you. But if you put in 8 hours of real world work at minimum wage you could have the same end result as 50 hours of breeding. I have the hours logged on Emerald and Pearl to prove that I've been there and bred a team. I have a box of legit pokemon and a box of them that aren't. I'm not sharking pure 31s or any crazy moves or abilities either. So how am I being unfair again?

 

[cannon]

Again why should you have an advantage to begin with for simply having more time?

As i stated, because that is the way the game is designed. IV's reward people who put in the time, why else would it be in the game? The whole concept of breeding is to create something that is better than "normal"

I never said you had to pay for anything.

"How is it unfair? You can buy the tools needed to modify all this stuff as well. It's not like only certain people can buy an Action Replay and others can't."

Those are your own words, that clearly sounds like i have to pay, unless you were implying that i go steal an AR.

I'm not sharking pure 31s or any crazy moves or abilities either. So how am I being unfair again?

I stated in my very first post that i only have a problem with people who hack IV's, what is it exactly that you use AR for?

 

[Carl]

IV's are Nintendo's weak ass attempt at adding more diversity, they're not specifically there to "reward you the hard working trainer" no matter how much you'd like that to be true. You could be breeding for weeks at a time and still not get the IVs you're looking for. The whole time argument in the first place stems from the fact that given enough time and mindless biking eventually this diversity is eliminated. You missed what I was saying in my rebuttal so I'll try and clear that up: I was implying that you can still breed for everything. Don't buy an Action Replay if you don't want to. I'm only suggesting that the option is there for you or anyone whereas the time option is not necessarily there for others.

 

[Odinwolf]

I think if you want perfect monsters without effort, go for NetBattle or wait for Competitor. If you're too busy to put effort into the game, rather than cheat, play something that you can actually enjoy for itself. Don't waste money on Pokémon.

These types of attitudes are just plain silly. Who are you to tell anyone how they are allowed to enjoy their game purchase? Where is the moral code written that a game MUST be played in the fashion that the designers/publishers originally envisioned? Everyone pays the same $35 for their games and everyone should be allowed to enjoy their game however they want.

I'm with Carl on this one. You don't deserve to be better in a battle because you've invested more time into the game. If you really enjoy the part of the game that involves training and breeding, then the value of your experience and satisfaction in creating pokemon shouldn't be affected by how someone else manages to do it faster or better, even if they use an AR. If that's what you enjoy, then do it. If that's what they enjoy, why should they be FORCED to do? As long as people are honest about how they got their pokemon then there is no reason for anyone to be angry or hate "legit hacks" when it comes down to battling.

Some of you apparently enjoy the tedious efforts that go into constant breeding and training. Others enjoy just being able to hop on and play a battle. If they don't have time to raise a competitive team or don't enjoy that portion of the game, there isn't any magical video game honor in enduring tedious and annoying portions of a game to get to what you enjoy. It's a GAME. It's supposed to be fun.

Just be honest with people about where your pokemon come from and there shouldn't be any issues. If you find value in hard-work breeding and training, then enjoy that portion of the game, but don't act like the people who don't want to mess with that portion are somehow poke-criminals. Again, its a game and they paid for it just like you did. They can enjoy it however they want.

 

[Draconiandevil03]

For me there is no gray area in this issue. I have no problem with someone hacking for anything within the limits of the game. I'll still battle someone who hacked for perfect IVs and natures and all shinies. Because the end result is still the same as someone who put all those hours in. I am a college wrestler with a part time job so to do all that work would take me months. I understand why someone would want to skip all the tedious stuff and jump straight into battling. If you end up hating the game by the time you're done breeding, then what was the whole point in the first place?

 

[Crash Hard]

But if you put in 8 hours of real world work at minimum wage you could have the same end result as 50 hours of breeding.

Exactly.
Now this may be my business side coming out but look at it this way.

DISCLAIMER: Please read the WHOLE post before you respond.

Say you have two employees, both working on the same job. One of them works their asexual butt off (why asexual? Well because we're being politically correct here folks.) spending loads of time and does a fantastic job. The other finds an inexpensive way to do the same job in half the time, saving the company more money because their solution costs less than actually paying him to do the same. Boss is happy that they have a very hard working employee in #1...but guess who will get the promotion? In our world time is the most valuable asset. It's also right up there with intelligent people for being one of the most valuable assets that we're always running short on. People pay very heavily for your time. I can't take shortcuts at work, so why on earth wouldn't I take shortcuts in a video game? Especially as long as I'm not hurting anyone?

Now I don't think this scenario applies to maxing IV's. Well in all actuality it could apply very directly, but like I said before I think maxing IV's is lame and I don't do it...this is more in defense of everything the "legit" hackers such as myself do. Exactly what Fishin and Carl have been backing me up in.


I'll check back in later, but I'm late.

 

[Fishin]

You don't deserve to be better in a battle because you've invested more time into the game.

If you find value in hard-work breeding and training, then enjoy that portion of the game, but don't act like the people who don't want to mess with that portion are somehow poke-criminals.

Those two statements sum up the point I'm trying to make pretty well, not a whole lot else to say.

 

[-FL-]

I use AR to hack my pokes, and I agree with people who don't bother to fight me knowing my situation. In the end, you could just not battle people who use hacked pokes and start looking for "legit" trainers who watch TV while breeding.

I hack my pokes because I love battling, not breeding, and I love battling with my DS on WiFi, simulators are not exactly the same, you know.

 

[sa17dk]

IV's are Nintendo's weak ass attempt at adding more diversity, they're not specifically there to "reward you the hard working trainer" no matter how much you'd like that to be true.

I think that is a very important fact that people have forgotten about.

 

[Raikou]

I don't understand why you people hack for perfect in game pokes when trading is so easy. If you're so strapped for time (very unlikely for most of you who are younger than age 18), play shoddy or competitor and stop cheating. That is way more time and money efficient than buying a cheating device. Some of us find it more enjoyable to use real Pokemon, not some AR'd crap.

And the influx of your AR'd pokes means that even legitimate players get stuck with hacked pokes in trades, I've received 5+ from smogon members.

 

[Familiar Trainer]

These types of attitudes are just plain silly. Who are you to tell anyone how they are allowed to enjoy their game purchase? Where is the moral code written that a game MUST be played in the fashion that the designers/publishers originally envisioned? Everyone pays the same $35 for their games and everyone should be allowed to enjoy their game however they want.

See here. Nintendo could probably shut down AR anytime they wish, and why they don't is beyond me. Back when they first sued the Game Genie, intellectual property apparently wasn't that well understood. That fact is alone is enough of a "moral code" for me.

I'm with Carl on this one. You don't deserve to be better in a battle because you've invested more time into the game.

I'd agree here, but first I'll ask a question. Who does deserve better? A person who spends 50 hours in front of a TV breeding or a person who works for 8 hours at minimum wage? Simple; Nobody deserves better! Unfortunately, it won't work that way. With an AR, a person has the ability to create whatever Pokemon they want, with whatever IVs they like. Including 31s in every stat.

I have no problem if you hack stats within the bounds of reality, though. And by bounds of reality, I don't mean flawless 31 Pokemon with a 30 in SpDef.

I don't understand why you people hack for perfect in game pokes when trading is so easy. If you're so strapped for time (very unlikely for most of you who are younger than age 18), play shoddy or competitor and stop cheating. That is way more time and money efficient than buying a cheating device. Some of us find it more enjoyable to use real Pokemon, not some AR'd crap.

QFE.

 

[latinoheat]

how is it more money effiecient in the time it takes to breed and get ivs you could be working and making much more money and then being able to buy an AR as well.

 

[Synre]

I don't understand why you people hack for perfect in game pokes when trading is so easy.

I think reading the thread would be a good way to gain an understanding on why people do this, as it has been explained to the point of exhaustion.

If you're so strapped for time (very unlikely for most of you who are younger than age 18), play shoddy or competitor and stop cheating. That is way more time and money efficient than buying a cheating device. Some of us find it more enjoyable to use real Pokemon, not some AR'd crap.

Then use "real" Pokemon all you want. Feel free to spend countless hours breeding Pokemon that will probably be pretty much identical to what I will get by working for three hours at a real job(as I am not younger than age 18) and then buying an AR to create my team with. When it comes down to it, you'll put in a great deal more work for the same result - it doesn't really seem to add up to me.

Maybe some of you enjoy throwing hours and hours at a game, and then later trying to create and apply some sort of video game morals to justify doing it, but when it comes down to it regardless of which way you go about creating your Pokemon everyone ends up with Pokemon that have roughly identical stats in the important areas. Things then get decided in battles with both competitors standing on roughly even ground, regardless of how much time they invested or how much money they spent, which is how any competitive game should be.

Although, if it's not too bold of me to say so, it seems like in many cases the people advocating one side of this argument wouldn't be on even ground in a battle at all.

And the influx of your AR'd pokes means that even legitimate players get stuck with hacked pokes in trades, I've received 5+ from smogon members.

I'm almost positive there's a place to report that.

See here. Nintendo could probably shut down AR anytime they wish, and why they don't is beyond me. Back when they first sued the Game Genie, intellectual property apparently wasn't that well understood. That fact is alone is enough of a "moral code" for me.

I could be wrong on this but I'm almost positive that at least one of the console developers have tried and failed at shutting down cheat devices in the past.

 

[Kimi3013]

I don't see why the fact that I have to look after my sick parents means that I can't compete on the same level as people who can waste so much time breeding.

The little time I get to my self is spent studying for when I go back to school in the autumn or having fun. Boring repetitive tasks that don't require skill such as breeding Pokemon don't count as fun for me.

 

[Raikou]

That just means that the pokemon weren't hacked correctly. It's definitely possible to create hacked pokemon that pass all legitimacy tests, those people just didn't hack them right.

In that respect, though, I do think that "competitive" (by that, I mean official Nintendo tournaments and such) Pokemon has a serious flaw in it. In basically every other competitive game, everyone will have the same set of tools to work with. In a fighting game, for example, you all have the same roster of characters to pick from. In an RTS, you can choose from whatever race you want. But in Pokemon, the playing field is not equal - the pokemon you have most likely aren't going to have the same IV's as your opponent's, which makes "Official" tournaments much less balanced than unofficial ones held online.

Two things. One, a perfect looking Poke with all the rights values that was not created by the game itself is detectable by the right people, i.e Nintendo.

Second, Pokemon is basically an RPG. Every RPG has some element of time put in = reward. Go play an MMO if you want to see the most extreme example, Pokemon is pretty mild in comparison. Fighting games and FPS are the kind of games where everyone has the same tools from the get go; Pokemon definately does not classify as one of those.

 

[Raikou]

I think reading the thread would be a good way to gain an understanding on why people do this, as it has been explained to the point of exhaustion.



Then use "real" Pokemon all you want. Feel free to spend countless hours breeding Pokemon that will probably be pretty much identical to what I will get by working for three hours at a real job(as I am not younger than age 18) and then buying an AR to create my team with. When it comes down to it, you'll put in a great deal more work for the same result - it doesn't really seem to add up to me.

Maybe some of you enjoy throwing hours and hours at a game, and then later trying to create and apply some sort of video game morals to justify doing it, but when it comes down to it regardless of which way you go about creating your Pokemon everyone ends up with Pokemon that have roughly identical stats in the important areas. Things then get decided in battles with both competitors standing on roughly even ground, regardless of how much time they invested or how much money they spent, which is how any competitive game should be.

Although, if it's not too bold of me to say so, it seems like in many cases the people advocating one side of this argument wouldn't be on even ground in a battle at all.



I'm almost positive there's a place to report that.



I could be wrong on this but I'm almost positive that at least one of the console developers have tried and failed at shutting down cheat devices in the past.

First, I have read all of the thread. Second, I do have an AR! I use it to get masterballs/rare candies/anything that the GTS glitch allows you to get already, but I don't make cheated Pokemon. I stated that earlier in one of my posts. Third, I have reported those people in the blacklist thread that was provided, except for the ones who apologized and traded back.

I also said that if you hack perfect pokes, I will still battle you, but I would like to know beforehand- don't try to pass of your hacked crap as legitimate is all I'm asking. I think that hacking cheapens the fun factor of the game but it is quite possible you play the game for different reasons (though those reasons are a good reason for you to stick to simulators imo).

Sorry to double post. :)

 

[cannon]

IV's are Nintendo's weak ass attempt at adding more diversity, they're not specifically there to "reward you the hard working trainer" no matter how much you'd like that to be true. You could be breeding for weeks at a time and still not get the IVs you're looking for.

I totally disagree with this. This may have been true if breeding wasn't in the game and you had to catch everything in the wild where everything was based purely on luck. But like i said, the concept of breeding goes against that. Breeding gives the opportunity to get better pokemon by the process of inheriting ivs, and ill stop there as im sure you know how it all works.

Exactly.
Now this may be my business side coming out but look at it this way.

DISCLAIMER: Please read the WHOLE post before you respond.

Say you have two employees, both working on the same job. One of them works their asexual butt off (why asexual? Well because we're being politically correct here folks.) spending loads of time and does a fantastic job. The other finds an inexpensive way to do the same job in half the time, saving the company more money because their solution costs less than actually paying him to do the same. Boss is happy that they have a very hard working employee in #1...but guess who will get the promotion? In our world time is the most valuable asset. It's also right up there with intelligent people for being one of the most valuable assets that we're always running short on. People pay very heavily for your time. I can't take shortcuts at work, so why on earth wouldn't I take shortcuts in a video game? Especially as long as I'm not hurting anyone?

That is such a BS model haha!!

You are seriously comparing buying an AR to this:

"finds an inexpensive way to do the same job in half the time, saving the company more money because their solution costs less than actually paying him to do the same" - seriously?

a more accurate comparison would be, one guy works hard to get to the top, and one guy slips the boss some sort of bribe to get to the top.

I'm not gonna say anything else in here as i seem to be going in circles, i can see what you are trying to say and whilst i understand, i just totally disagree on most points. I just wanted to air my opinion and i did that about 4 posts ago

 

[Fire Electric Cat-Gonk]

Time spent does not equal skill, and that's the bottom line. The point of playing a competitive game is to test skill and not effort. If I had a AR and my opponent didn't, and my Pokes were better, I'd offer to shark up his team to provide a level playing field.

If you want to play a game where time spent = skill, go log onto WoW and lose a few Arena matches for your free purples.

Trading hacked Pokes to people who expect legit ones is an entirely different kettle of fish, because the breeding, catch-em-all side of the game is completely separate to the battling side.

It's really interesting to note how many people hate AR/Pokesav but will quite willingly dupe items and Pokes. After all, if it's in the game you can do it..right?

EDIT:

Go play an MMO if you want to see the most extreme example, Pokemon is pretty mild in comparison.

And this is why WoW will never be a competitive game, ever.

 

[Synre]

Two things. One, a perfect looking Poke with all the rights values that was not created by the game itself is detectable by the right people, i.e Nintendo.

They've done an excellent job of catching known cheaters in the past in their big events, you're right. I can't think of more than a handful of people who 'got away with cheating' at all.

Second, Pokemon is basically an RPG. Every RPG has some element of time put in = reward. Go play an MMO if you want to see the most extreme example, Pokemon is pretty mild in comparison.

Looking at the World of Warcraft tab in my taskbar, I have a hard time laughing at the fact you're trying to compare Pokemon's time/reward ratio with an MMO.

While Pokemon definitely has RPG aspects to it, which are obviously seen in the quest to beat the Elite Four present in every game, as well as leveling your Pokemon, combat is exclusively turn based strategy. That is the aspect this site focuses on. Not the breeding, not the quest to beat the Elite Four, the battling. As such, for all intents and purposes Pokemon is a strategy game here. For a strategy game to be as competitive as possible, all competitors need to be on a relatively even playing field, which of course in Pokemon's case is having Pokemon with pretty much the same IV ranges and the desired personalities and movesets. Regardless of which way you go about doing this, breeding or AR, you will inevitably end up with something similar, getting everyone at the place they need to be to start the real game.

I think that hacking cheapens the fun factor of the game but it is quite possible you play the game for different reasons (though those reasons are a good reason for you to stick to simulators imo).

That's great. imo you should keep your opinion to yourself imo and not tell other people here how and where to play imo

 

[Danigi]

I could be wrong on this but I'm almost positive that at least one of the console developers have tried and failed at shutting down cheat devices in the past.

I think Nintendo tried that with Game Genie back in the days of the NES. It failed.

About AR, if you use it, ok, that's cool. I work part time, and it is still pretty hard to get time to play pokemon. I still have time to breed, but if I worked full time it would easily be impossible to. If you're don't have enough time to waste breeding, cool, go for it. I mean pretty much all the users here who do that hack within the legal boundaries, some probably don't even go for all 31 IVs.

 

[StarWizard]

That and this are pretty different, because we're talking about online, competitive play, not just regular unlockables. If we're talking about truly competitive play, everyone should have the exact same set of resources to play with. One person having an innate advantage because they've got more time to waste is just plain unfair.

Of course, you could go the opposite way and say that hacking gives an unfair advantage to the person who has perfect IV's. This is true, unfortunately, and there's still likely to be a gap. So what's the solution to give EVERYONE an equal playing field? There really isn't a true solution, but in this case a "Live and let live" attitude seems to be the best path to take.

Imagine a tournament for a really, really competitive game (StarCraft, let's say), and one player having bonus damage for all of his units right from the start. See what I mean?

The thing is, you are advocating cheating because the game's mechanics are unfair. You don't agree with the 0-31 randomness for each stat. The game, though, runs on that. If you don't want to play that way, the ''fair'' way, which demands effort, and want to use a device to get that for you, it's like you are playing a mod of that game. But you are using it against people playing the regular game. Think of a mod of WoW (if that exists), and people playing in the official server with characters that were built in the mod game (that gives 5x more experience, for example). It doesn't work that game.

You mention this being a competitive battling game, and that everyone should have the same weapons to fight with. Fair enough. Again, shoddy and competitor. Everyone has access to everything, go there and test your skills. If you want to play by the game mechanics, though, of which Wi-Fi battling is an example, you need to agree with the rules enforced by that. Otherwise you are joining a ''server'' with legit, ''I-play-by-the-rules'' people with modified pokémon that just don't belong there. People have the right to be pissed and call you a cheat, because, well, you are doing so. You are cheating on your own time constraints.

I loathe the 0-31 randomness. I wouldn't have made it had I created the pokémon games. But I'm not the creator, and the game that is being offered is that one. If I want to play it, I need to agree with it. That's all.

 

[Mr.Fuji]

I'm still baffled as to why some people still think hacking on a game like pokemon is such a taboo, seeing as how pokemon is such an insignificant part of life, those people should prolly worry about things worth worrying about, and avoid (if you care sooooo badly) people that hack lol.

 

[Fire Electric Cat-Gonk]

You mention this being a competitive battling game, and that everyone should have the same weapons to fight with. Fair enough. Again, shoddy and competitor. Everyone has access to everything, go there and test your skills.

That is a fair point. However, playing on a simulator simply doesn't have the same feel as playing in person.

 

[Raikou]

Time spent does not equal skill, and that's the bottom line. The point of playing a competitive game is to test skill and not effort. If I had a AR and my opponent didn't, and my Pokes were better, I'd offer to shark up his team to provide a level playing field.

If you want to play a game where time spent = skill, go log onto WoW and lose a few Arena matches for your free purples.

Trading hacked Pokes to people who expect legit ones is an entirely different kettle of fish, because the breeding, catch-em-all side of the game is completely separate to the battling side.

It's really interesting to note how many people hate AR/Pokesav but will quite willingly dupe items and Pokes. After all, if it's in the game you can do it..right?

EDIT:

And this is why WoW will never be a competitive game, ever.

My warlock and my boyfriend's shadow priest did pretty well in 2v2 with only halfway decent gear, there is definately some strategy involved even though the gear is sadly most important. The reason WOW will never be competitive is because the developers can't balance the game properly, they just like to nerf everything.

I play Pokemon both because the strategy aspect of battling is fun, and because I like being able to customize a team of my favorite dudes and kick ass with them. I don't breed to "catch em all", I breed and trade to have every Pokemon I want available to me and to feel good about the fact that they're not AR'd fakes. Back in the GBA days, hacking a full perfect (or near perfect) team was fine because there wasn't this huge online aspect, but now that has changed. Winning with a cheated team kind of cheapens the victory, doesn't it?