The Action Replay debate.

[DEL337ED]

Klijin, I agree with most of what you said, especially this:

Why is it OK to clone and generate items for pretty much everyone ITT against the use of AR in any way (I have seen a whopping 2 posters who say they or the people they play with are opposed to any sort of glitch/code exploitation)?

This is something I was trying to get at with my first post in this thread - the whole hypocrisy of everything. People spend forever breeding these awesome legit specimens, only to clone them and turn them into impure copies. It's getting quite out of hand - people hacking items, asking for hacked dittos, etc. I even saw someone who was gonna hack EVs for people onto their "legitimate" Pokemon. And you know what? Nobody cares.

 

[Kijin]

And you know what? Nobody cares.

As they should. The whole reason you're shooting for perfect IVs and EV spreads, catching OU pokemon instead of NU and lv'ing to 100 is to minimize the chance you have of losing in a battle and trading those you generate for more of the same sort. People against AR'ing pokemon routinely use AR or other non-kosher methods to obtain most of the above (master balls, rare candies [even just for checking IVs], cloning), but there's no real explanation as to why influencing those last one or two factors (IV hack, encounter hack) is such an unforgivable sin as to raise a 9 page debate when the end result is always the same.

 

[sa17dk]

Just a question to those against hacking for IVs/such. This is not meant to flame. I just had a question:

Are you guys angry that those who hack their IVs did it in 10 seconds while you guys spent weeks or more to get the same pokemon?

 

[Powerful_Blaziken88]

I use AR to save time in making battle-worthy Pokemon. Even before I had the AR, I cared not if someone did the same and battled me. Being someone who goes to a residential school for all of the school year and goes to a trailer park with no Internet on weekends during the summer, my Wi-Fi time is limited right off the bat. To spend all that time attempting to breed good natured/IV'd Pokemon would basically make it pointless in the first place, since I would have no time left to use them. Besides, there's little skill in breeding Pokemon, the actual battle's where the skill's at. I'll take the satisfaction of winning a battle using prediction and strategy than the satisfaction of having spent time breeding my team. Not to mention I'm light and would rather stay that way, rather than sitting on the couch all day gaining weight with my thumb being the only moving part of me. Unless of course you count my mouth spitting swear words at my DS for giving me crap IV Pokemon and having to spend 15 minutes just to hatch 5 more eggs.

 

[Duckster]

Just a question to those against hacking for IVs/such. This is not meant to flame. I just had a question:

Are you guys angry that those who hack their IVs did it in 10 seconds while you guys spent weeks or more to get the same pokemon?

I'd rather not get into this debate anymore, but I'm going to be honest and say yes, I AM angry.....under one condition, that being if you were to participate in an event where hacking was "forbidden".

Thankfully, I'm not forced to battle those that do hack, so it's not like I have any right to come in here and tell you what you guys are doing is wrong, it's how YOU play the game, I have no say in that. "Anti-Hackers" shouldn't give a shit about what you guys do in your own competitive realm, because it has no effect on our lives what-so-ever.

But the second someone hacks up their 6x31 IVed Squad ten minutes before an official event, in which the rules clearly state "NO HACKING", I'm going to have a problem with that. Those tournaments were clearly held to determine the best Pokemoner, not the most competitive player that day. If you truly don't give a shit about the breeding / raising aspect of the game, then imo you have no right competing in those events. It's not like those tournaments always determined the most skilled battler anyways, in-fact they rarely do, with luck being a HUGE factor in the game.

Pokemon really isn't entirely about skill anyways, it's about FUN imo (something we all seem to be forgetting these days). While I understand that a lot of these elements might "limit" the fun for you, I guess you need to ask yourself, "am I playing the right game?".

 

[Lee]

Are you guys angry that those who hack their IVs did it in 10 seconds while you guys spent weeks or more to get the same pokemon?

No, I'm glad I did it, because now I'm left with a sense of pride and accomplishment that an AR could never produce.

 

[Fire Electric Cat-Gonk]

No, I'm glad I did it, because now I'm left with a sense of pride and accomplishment that an AR could never produce.

Exactly.

I have a L100 Oddish. Would it be the same as a L100 Oddish that got sharked? Of course it wouldn't.

Keep breeding and battling separate.

 

[Dragontamer]

Just a question to those against hacking for IVs/such. This is not meant to flame. I just had a question:

Are you guys angry that those who hack their IVs did it in 10 seconds while you guys spent weeks or more to get the same pokemon?

My position is already stated... but I'll state it again. I am willing to play with guys who use AR as long as they are within the bounds of the game. However, I will not personally utilize the AR because it will isolate me, and is considered very heavy cheating in my group of RL friends.

I am on the other hand... somewhat annoyed that you would consider a person to be immature enough to be "angered" at playing a game differently than the way they play a game.

-----------

Anyway, this argument is starting to get silly. Clearly, it is like saying whether or not basketball players should dribble. Sure, the game is very different... maybe even more fun if you don't dribble, but it isn't the same. Anyway, Basketball is all about shooting baskets and not about how well you can drop a ball on the ground and catch it.

BTW: if you missed the point it is that we all have our metaphors and none of them are making sense. There is no solid debate here because no one seems to understand each other. And the best attempts at metaphors on either side are hopelessly lost because lets face it... all these metaphors are hopelessly biased and don't make much sense at all.

 

[y2zipper]

I'd rather not get into this debate anymore, but I'm going to be honest and say yes, I AM angry.....under one condition, that being if you were to participate in an event where hacking was "forbidden".

I agree with this, however, it's hard to detect what's legit and what's not these days. I run tournaments in my area myself, and I run a set of rules that tries to create the most level playing field. My point in saying that is that it is very hard to detect hacks unless they are blantantly illegal or turn into bad eggs on the PBR, where I usually run tournaments.

Thankfully, I'm not forced to battle those that do hack, so it's not like I have any right to come in here and tell you what you guys are doing is wrong, it's how YOU play the game, I have no say in that. "Anti-Hackers" shouldn't give a shit about what you guys do in your own competitive realm, because it has no effect on our lives what-so-ever.

You don't have to battle people who hack. That's your choice.

But the second someone hacks up their 6x31 IVed Squad ten minutes before an official event, in which the rules clearly state "NO HACKING", I'm going to have a problem with that. Those tournaments were clearly held to determine the best Pokemoner, not the most competitive player that day. If you truly don't give a shit about the breeding / raising aspect of the game, then imo you have no right competing in those events. It's not like those tournaments always determined the most skilled battler anyways, in-fact they rarely do, with luck being a HUGE factor in the game.

I think somebody else said this before, but you probably wouldn't notice if you were playing somebody who had 31's across the board against you if they didn't say anything first, and hacks that are otherwise legal really don't have a significant impact on the game unless.

Pokemon really isn't entirely about skill anyways, it's about FUN imo (something we all seem to be forgetting these days). While I understand that a lot of these elements might "limit" the fun for you, I guess you need to ask yourself, "am I playing the right game?"

We're not going here. We play Pokemon competitively because it is fun. People here spend countless hours on large-scale programming projects because of the portion of the community that thinks breeding is no fun or that doesn't have time to breed or doesn't have WiFi access. This argument has no validity whatsoever.

Personally, I don't hack, but I am considering it. Generally, I think everyone should hack. If everybody has all 31's that's the best possible level playing field, people like having higher stats on their Pokemon, and hacking eliminates all of the crappy obstacles put in front of one of the best competitive video game fronts on the planet, which are placed by a company that doesn't know how to run their game. Besides, most people are already cloning and hacking items and cash, so it's not like we have a bunch of purists here. I don't see how putting together an all 31 EV pokemon is cheating in any way. I don't have any sympathy for somebody who wants to rely on a random number generator, that's not how I feel like spending my days.

 

[Dragontamer]

I don't have any sympathy for somebody who wants to rely on a random number generator, that's not how I feel like spending my days.

This is what I'm talking about. Its like action-replay people have no respect for those who play the game legit. Granted, anti-AR people here are calling the other side "cheaters"...

 

[sa17dk]

My position is already stated... but I'll state it again. I am willing to play with guys who use AR as long as they are within the bounds of the game. However, I will not personally utilize the AR because it will isolate me, and is considered very heavy cheating in my group of RL friends.

I am on the other hand... somewhat annoyed that you would consider a person to be immature enough to be "angered" at playing a game differently than the way they play a game.

-----------

Anyway, this argument is starting to get silly. Clearly, it is like saying whether or not basketball players should dribble. Sure, the game is very different... maybe even more fun if you don't dribble, but it isn't the same. Anyway, Basketball is all about shooting baskets and not about how well you can drop a ball on the ground and catch it.

BTW: if you missed the point it is that we all have our metaphors and none of them are making sense. There is no solid debate here because no one seems to understand each other. And the best attempts at metaphors on either side are hopelessly lost because lets face it... all these metaphors are hopelessly biased and don't make much sense at all.

I didnt mean angered in the sense that someone would get angry at losing money or something. I apologize if thats what you thought.

It's just that a lot of other people (who are against hacking IVs) seem to be annoyed/ticked off that theyre sitting for hours pressing up and down to get a good pokemon, while others are doing it in an instant.

And if that is the reason, thats a very very poor argument in a site where competitive battling is the focus.

 

[Kijin]

This is what I'm talking about. Its like action-replay people have no respect for those who play the game legit. Granted, anti-AR people here are calling the other side "cheaters"...

Within the realm of competitive battling, you're comparing the guy who works at a moderate-pay job for 35 years before hoping he has enough saved in his pension so he can retire to the person who just graduated/dropped out of college to start a company which earns him some ridiculous sum where he is able to retire by 35. And then when the niche is criticized for doing in no time what the moderate-pay crew merely HOPES to accomplish in their lifetimes, it tends to make discussion tedious and annoying for the entrepreneurs. And this is coming from someone who only considered hacking very recently.

 

[Duckster]

"I think somebody else said this before, but you probably wouldn't notice if you were playing somebody who had 31's across the board against you if they didn't say anything first, and hacks that are otherwise legal really don't have a significant impact on the game unless."

Just a small note, I wasn't trying to say that the 31 IVs are a major advantage. I already stated how they have little impact on the overall damage calc a few pages back. It was just an example of hacking in general, before a "fair" tournament. But of course, if you are going to hack you might as well make it worthwhile and shoot for the 31 IVs, hence why I used that in my example.

"We're not going here. We play Pokemon competitively because it is fun. People here spend countless hours on large-scale programming projects because of the portion of the community that thinks breeding is no fun or that doesn't have time to breed or doesn't have WiFi access. This argument has no validity whatsoever."

Yeah, you are entirely right. As I've stated, I have absolutely no right to tell you guys how to play the game / you're playing it wrong / whatever. I think that is fair. And hell, I'll probably conform with you guys due to a severe lack of tournaments where I live. The official ones are far and few between anyways, but the second you come into "our" territory with your hacked stuff, you are straight up cheating. Because that wasn't part of "our" game.

 

[Dragontamer]

It's just that a lot of other people (who are against hacking IVs) seem to be annoyed/ticked off that theyre sitting for hours pressing up and down to get a good pokemon, while others are doing it in an instant.

This can be said of any game, or of any cheater, taken in a good or bad way. Macros and hacking in MMORPGs is a similar debate for example. There is very little difference aside from the fact that the "cheating device" here on smogon... appears to be more popular and thus accepted by the community.

Within the realm of competitive battling, you're comparing the guy who works at a moderate-pay job for 35 years before hoping he has enough saved in his pension so he can retire to the person who just graduated/dropped out of college to start a company which earns him some ridiculous sum where he is able to retire by 35. And then when the niche is criticized for doing in no time what the moderate-pay crew merely HOPES to accomplish in their lifetimes, it tends to make discussion tedious and annoying for the entrepreneurs. And this is coming from someone who only considered hacking very recently.

And again... with the silly metaphors. We have already established that we don't think alike so metaphors are not an effective means of communication.

 

[QibingZero]

Sadly, it seems the discussion has run it's course. All we're left with are insults and pathetic metaphors (as Dragontamer has already noted twice).

I find it hard to comprehend how someone can claim to be sincere and well-meaning when they meanwhile insinuate that anyone who is breeding instead of using AR to hack pokes is a fool and is wasting their time. And really, the business-model references are almost as ridiculous as the 'relying on the random number generator' argument itself is. You're not an entrepreneur because you bought an AR, just as you're not any less a slave to the RNG by foregoing breeding when you battle using it.

 

[Raikou]

Here's a summary of the post you didn't finish to be a twat: I was playing devil's advocate with subjects that to any rational person would seem hypocritical from the onset (ex- lauding people for AR'ing pokemon, but not the items used to modify or raise/capture those pokemon).

So why is your expense of 2 days of just riding your bike for "that one perfect egg" worth so much more in the battle than the $19.99 (plus tax or shipping) I spent to get my IVs where I need them? We've each taken different routes to the SAME FUCKING END. Mine doesn't put me in 3 hours of traffic, yours doesn't have any tolls. If we're both shooting for the highest IVs possible, how the hell does sending out our respective pokemon with the highest IVs possible (and to shock and awe the dead horse, we're talking "in game, the number 31" possible, not "stat cap" possible) put either of us at any disadvantage? Upset about my 31 Special Attack IV? Well GAWRSH, you should have put in another week shooting for that 5th 31 IV in Special Defense.

You didn't respond to my points which makes me think you didn't read my post. I explained the difference, sharking is not a moral issue like abortion. Your 999 stat Mewtwo doesn't affect me as long as it stays in your box so I don't care. Your 31/31/31/31/31/31 dream team does affect me if we're battling. Not much, my team is well bred and has everything in the right place because I put in the time, but I would like to know before hand that you, you know, cheated. FYI I have 200 hours spent total on my game and several complete teams, that's not that much in 4 months (15 minutes a day).

To answer someone who asked earlier, I would much rather have my legit Pokes than perfect IV hacked ones. My competitive guys are less than 10 points off perfect in most cases. I play the game for fun and knowing I don't have to cheat to win is pretty rewarding imo.

And you have very few posts on this forum to be calling people twats. I hope this gets closed soon.

 

[Maxwell]

it's kinda mean to call someone a derogatory name from the safety of the internet.

on topic, i was thinking, if more people cheated for ivs, battles would be theoretically harder on average, which would in turn force each player to have to play better. most people seek improvements at the games they like, so trying to remove AR use from the pokemon scene would seem self-handicapping as a community, right?

 

[Uxie FTW]

where might someone find one of these so called AR machines if one was going to buy one? I'm not going to buy one even though i believe cheating is not so bad. it adds a new twist to the game rather than knowing what every pokemon is capable of doing, so it would make it more funner. in conclusion drugs are bad.

 

[General Tso]

As they should. The whole reason you're shooting for perfect IVs and EV spreads, catching OU pokemon instead of NU and lv'ing to 100 is to minimize the chance you have of losing in a battle and trading those you generate for more of the same sort. People against AR'ing pokemon routinely use AR or other non-kosher methods to obtain most of the above (master balls, rare candies [even just for checking IVs], cloning), but there's no real explanation as to why influencing those last one or two factors (IV hack, encounter hack) is such an unforgivable sin as to raise a 9 page debate when the end result is always the same.

Ok, since when were using OU/NU pokemon brought into this debate?

I use AR to save time in making battle-worthy Pokemon. Even before I had the AR, I cared not if someone did the same and battled me. Being someone who goes to a residential school for all of the school year and goes to a trailer park with no Internet on weekends during the summer, my Wi-Fi time is limited right off the bat. To spend all that time attempting to breed good natured/IV'd Pokemon would basically make it pointless in the first place, since I would have no time left to use them. Besides, there's little skill in breeding Pokemon, the actual battle's where the skill's at. I'll take the satisfaction of winning a battle using prediction and strategy than the satisfaction of having spent time breeding my team. Not to mention I'm light and would rather stay that way, rather than sitting on the couch all day gaining weight with my thumb being the only moving part of me. Unless of course you count my mouth spitting swear words at my DS for giving me crap IV Pokemon and having to spend 15 minutes just to hatch 5 more eggs.

That's just it, everyone who uses AR thinks the people who breed will say "There's more skill in breeding than battling." Since when did we say that? We may take satisfaction in breeding, but that doesn't mean we aren't good battlers. If we're good battlers and we breed, that just gives us more satisfaction, (I'm not saying you don't get satisfaction from AR though.)

 

[sa17dk]

it's kinda mean to call someone a derogatory name from the safety of the internet.

on topic, i was thinking, if more people cheated for ivs, battles would be theoretically harder on average, which would in turn force each player to have to play better. most people seek improvements at the games they like, so trying to remove AR use from the pokemon scene would seem self-handicapping as a community, right?

Bouncing off of what he said:

You guys are here because competitive battling is your main priority. Therefore, wouldnt AR use offer you the highest level of competition?

 

[Familiar Trainer]

Bouncing off of what he said:

You guys are here because competitive battling is your main priority. Therefore, wouldnt AR use offer you the highest level of competition?

Yes, but isn't the point of simulators to offer you the highest level of competition?

It seems people are whining about silly things like Bibarel's traits missing from Shoddy. While Bibarels traits are probably it's biggest selling point, what reason do you have to use Bibarel in the highest level of competition? Once Competitor comes out, there will honestly be next to no reason to use AR.

As for the people saying "it's just a few stat points", that argument can go right back at you. Why use AR for "just a few stat points"?

 

[Carl]

You guys are here because competitive battling is your main priority. Therefore, wouldnt AR use offer you the highest level of competition?

Right, that was one of my points earlier.

The main split in this argument as I said before is different definitions of what pokemon is. The people against the cheating devices feel that because breeding is a step you have to take towards actually having a battle that it is a small but integral part of the battle itself. The people for the cheating devices see pokemon as only the battle situation and nothing more. I know the only reason I still play this game is for the battling and surely not for the awesome plot line.

I think for the most part this argument has traveled in circles a few too many times for us to get any further. We've got people wandering in voicing their opinion after 6 pages and reiterating what people have been saying from the start. I understand how the anti sharkers feel and don't think any less of them for breeding. If that's the way they want to play the game that's perfectly ok with me. I think what we can all agree on is that it's fair to let your opponent know before hand if you're using anything hacked, even if it's within the realm of the game. As for everything else, I think we've made our points pretty clear and I don't think anyone's budging.