The Action Replay debate.

[Raikou]

Using a AR negates any advantage anyone has over anyone else. As repeatedly stated above, if someone doesn't have access to an editing device yet their opponent does, their opponent should offer them the use of it.

I don't actually own a AR/flash cart, by the way.

"If the game was meant to ___" will never be a proper argument, ever.


And if people need to spend so much time breeding instead of battling, it never will be.


WoW will never be a competitive game because time spent = skill, which is what you are advocating. This is in addition to Blizzard's complete failure to organise the Arena season..

Using an AR in that way makes you inelligible for any tournaments, Nintendo or Smogon sponsored alike. You are doing something that is not possible for the game to do itself, even if you think it is. This is how I have caught the 5 people who traded me hacked Pokemon. They are in no way shape or form legal. I don't want that shit on my game, thanks for the offer.

If you want an equal playing field, breed your Pokemon and fight other people who have bred theirs. While my Pokemon "A" may have a few more points than your Pokemon "B", chances are one of your other Pokemon surpasses a different one of mine in stats, and what you get is an equal playing field that still has some diversity. Pokemon as a game is not static anyway, which is what you seem to want; but it will never be static with critical hits, misses, hax, hundreds of possible movesets, the necessity of clauses to even resemble balance. And using a cheat device to make perfect 31's does not create an equal playing field, it is cheating. I think what you're looking for is an online battle simulator.

And Pokemon is much more based on using boring ass standards = win than time spent = win. Breeders gain a very slight advantage. But a few IV points, unless in speed, rarely matter; so why are you using a hacking device to get them? Everyone has access to the day care man and he comes with your game for free and creates legitimate data strings, try using him. I'd rather have slightly imperfect Pokemon than be disqualified from a tournament (not that I would show up at one tbh, but theoretically).


EDIT: Wanted to add that a super easy way to get lots of competitive stuff is Star Wizard's breeding house. You have a whole week to breed something nice, are provided dittos for free, and you get to trade for 25+ other competitive pokes at the end of the week. Awesome idea for anyone who wants legit stuff but doesn't have the time to breed them all.

 

[Aron]

Everyone understands that to be competitive at pokemon, one must invest time and/or money. The question is how much do you value your time? If the answer is infinitely small (or if the cost is offset by the pleasure of breeding), then by all means, spend your days breeding for perfection. If however, you value your time above the cost of an action replay, then go ahead and cheat for perfect IVs.

I cannot see how my reasoning is unfair to anyone. It is the individuals' fault for putting a value on the outcome of a random number generator.

your reasoning is fair, and I agree. I have to say, AR is amazing for cloning, I got after I saw that you could do that. No more GTS cloning for me.

 

[Fire Electric Cat-Gonk]

This is how I have caught the 5 people who traded me hacked Pokemon. They are in no way shape or form legal.

Earlier you mentioned "characteristic data". Could you please elaborate on that point and the quote above.

 

[Dragontamer]

I personally can go either way, as long as the AR pokemon are otherwise legal, I can agree with that. (Besides, IVs aside from speed are not as important)

But if I were to make a stance on this issue, it would be the following. There are a large group of people who believe that you ruin the game by playing "outside" of it. The gameboy and the cartridge enforce rules that can only be broken by AR or some other hacking device. Therefore, it is reasonable for typical gamers to expect that you adhere to the rules of the game.

We all can stop dribbling in Basketball if we wanted to, but that doesn't make the game more fun. And in essence, the game is you play it, you get it.

When you don't play with Action Replay, you are legit, you can continue to play with those people who disdain AR. However, once you go AR you can not go back. If you value perfect IVs so much play ShoddyBattle or Competitor when it comes out.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I use an Action Replay, but I only use it to get legal Pokes more quickly, simply because it is so boring having to spen hours and hours getting a good one. Plus, trading over nearly perfect Pokes to others makes them happy too. The only problem is, I never really appreciate anything I get in the trade, because I know I can get it easily myself.

 

[Aej]

I have no problems with hacking Pokemon so long as it is within the limits of the Pokemon itself. For example, I would hack a Pokemon's IVs/natures, but not something ridiculous like giving it 999 stats and Spacial Rend/Roar of Time/Aeroblast/Sacred Fire movesets.

 

[Carl]

my last post in this topic

I understand why you're so adamant about this; I would be too if I was spending that much time still. While it makes you ineligible, I doubt you'd ever notice a difference if you actually fought someone using pure 31s in any pokemon tournament during a battle. As you said yourself, it's only a few points. If it doesn't make that much difference why are you the one complaining when suddenly that few points you were using as a slight edge disappears or is turned against you? Ah yes, now this is the way people feel when they don't have hours on end to sit in the corner biking up and down. Online simulator you say? Again, point me in the direction of one that has the same accuracy and reliability as the game itself. To my knowledge there are none to date. The two available are getting better but they're not quite there yet.

Pokemon is not a static game and nor would everyone battling with 31 IVs be either. However, if based on everything being "legit", standards don't make a difference because in the end it could still all be based on the time spent. If a game is 1-1 and it's Garchomp vs Garchomp both Jolly and max EVs in speed, this SHOULD be a 50/50 toss up to me. Both players played well to get to this point and Garchomp vs Garchomp is obviously any man's game. However, you spent more time than I did breeding so my 29 speed IV instead loses 100% of the time. I did absolutely nothing wrong with my EV spread or nature but because I wasn't as lucky as you with a harsher random number generator and didn't have as much time to throw at it, I'm supposed to lose. That is dumb in my opinion.

The problem with this argument is how people are defining the game Pokemon. Sorry kids, but the word Pokemon here means battling. You can play the game "in full" all you like but this site's primary focus is battling. That's where a majority of the user base's interest lies and that's the most addictive part of the game. We value battling skill here, not biking effort. So with respect to battling itself, using a device within the limits of the game to save time does not hurt my Pokemon experience or seem like cheating. I would never guise the fact to my opponent that I saved time and I would offer to alter the IVs if there was an issue to make it level; whether it be raise my opponent's or lower mine to meet his. That's the difference, you've put in so much time that you want that "advantage" because it would be a waste of time if you didn't have it. For me, it does not matter how we level the playing field IV wise so long as it's as level as possible so I can have a skill based match.

 

[Dragontamer]

Pokemon is not a static game and nor would everyone battling with 31 IVs be either. However, if based on everything being "legit", standards don't make a difference because in the end it could still all be based on the time spent. If a game is 1-1 and it's Garchomp vs Garchomp both Jolly and max EVs in speed, this SHOULD be a 50/50 toss up to me. Both players played well to get to this point and Garchomp vs Garchomp is obviously any man's game. However, you spent more time than I did breeding so my 29 speed IV instead loses 100% of the time. I did absolutely nothing wrong with my EV spread or nature but because I wasn't as lucky as you with a harsher random number generator and didn't have as much time to throw at it, I'm supposed to lose. That is dumb in my opinion.

IMO, your fault for settling for 29 speed IVs instead of 31. The methods of getting 31 IVs are well documented and you have no excuse for ignoring the most important IV statistic in the game.

Second, on the meta-argument. You say it is "dumb" to lose because you spent less time on the game. Well duh, you lose because this game is partially work based. Strategy and actual gameplay is part of it, but work and dedication gives a slight edge on those rare occasions.

The problem with this argument is how people are defining the game Pokemon. Sorry kids, but the word Pokemon here means battling. You can play the game "in full" all you like but this site's primary focus is battling. That's where a majority of the user base's interest lies and that's the most addictive part of the game. We value battling skill here, not biking effort. So with respect to battling itself, using a device within the limits of the game to save time does not hurt my Pokemon experience or seem like cheating. I would never guise the fact to my opponent that I saved time and I would offer to alter the IVs if there was an issue to make it level; whether it be raise my opponent's or lower mine to meet his. That's the difference, you've put in so much time that you want that "advantage" because it would be a waste of time if you didn't have it. For me, it does not matter how we level the playing field IV wise so long as it's as level as possible so I can have a skill based match.

For you, yes. However, to go out and imply that the majority of players or the user-base would accept this point of view would be a stretch. I can accept this point of view because perhaps Smogon is like that (or at least the mods / higher-ups), but in my experience, with my RL friends anyway, AR is deemed as cheating. Therefore, even though I can easily afford AR, I will not use it because that breaks the game for my RL group.

 

[Chaos_Wielder]

For you, yes. However, to go out and imply that the majority of players or the user-base would accept this point of view would be a stretch. I can accept this point of view because perhaps Smogon is like that (or at least the mods / higher-ups), but in my experience, with my RL friends anyway, AR is deemed as cheating. Therefore, even though I can easily afford AR, I will not use it because that breaks the game for my RL group.

Certain people have deemed that their 'rules' are better and more true to the spirit of the game than others('I breed therefore I am better'; 'No, battling is where it's at!'). However, the people making claims should consider the actual rules of the game(and not the Renoir film*). We have changed the rules of the game just by disallowing certain things already in the game(Double Team, Kygore in non-uber, etc). Considering this, it is fair to say that Smogon has an understood set of 'house rules' that supercede others when dealing with the game. And even greater than that, the number one rule, is to win. I think those two are central to the nature of the discussion.

As Dragontamer has noted, his group of players uses a different set of 'house rules' than those ordained and supported by the mods here(he does not like AR pokes). This is perfectly acceptable(perhaps even laudable). However, given the context in which this discussion is presented, I find little point in actually considering it further. If you deem the 'house rules' to be unfair, don't play in that location anymore. Nobody is stopping you. Victory supercedes methids--it is the Smogon mantra and I think it not unfair.

I suppose one might claim that the AR is outside the game structure and should not be considered in relation to rules('It makes it an unfair playing field!'). This is an odd claim: those creating the Pokes for their uses have done so under the agreed upon(mostly so anyways) set of 'house rules' of Smogon. Rather than actually breaking the rules of the game, they are following them under a different fashion. If they purposly hacked 252 EVs into their Pokes(or did some other oddness), then there would be a problem. However, they want to play the game in their own fashion(which, really, we all are doing as noted above).

The rules have been changed for our own enjoyment, and to seriously complain about this is counterproductive to the nature of competitive battling. If you really don't like it, just screen opponents beforehand(or just wait for Competitor--the ultimate incarnation of ends greater than method). No daycare man staring into oblivion there.

And my apologies if the above was unreadable; I was doing something else while typing it.

*Pedantic gibberish.

 

[Familiar Trainer]

Certain people have deemed that their 'rules' are better and more true to the spirit of the game than others('I breed therefore I am better'; 'No, battling is where it's at!'). However, the people making claims should consider the actual rules of the game(and not the Renoir film*). We have changed the rules of the game just by disallowing certain things already in the game(Double Team, Kygore in non-uber, etc). Considering this, it is fair to say that Smogon has an understood set of 'house rules' that supercede others when dealing with the game. And even greater than that, the number one rule, is to win. I think those two are central to the nature of the discussion.

Kyogre is actually recognized as an overpowered Pokemon in-game though, as it is not allowed to participate in Battle Tower matches. Double Team, Wobbuffet and friends weren't officially "banned" by Smogon yet; The final word on them will come after serious testing done over Competitor. Actually, some of Smogon rules came straight from Stadium 2 from what I understand, and the recent PBR includes Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause and even things like Item Clause.

Besides allowing Celebi, Jirachi and at the moment banning Wobbuffet, Smogon's rules are hardly out of what you'd usually find. That, and we play without Item Clause the majority of the time.

 

[Carl]

IMO, your fault for settling for 29 speed IVs instead of 31. The methods of getting 31 IVs are well documented and you have no excuse for ignoring the most important IV statistic in the game.

Second, on the meta-argument. You say it is "dumb" to lose because you spent less time on the game. Well duh, you lose because this game is partially work based. Strategy and actual gameplay is part of it, but work and dedication gives a slight edge on those rare occasions.

I knew someone was going to come in and take my example at face value. The point is not that I ignored the most valuable stat in the game but that despite the fact that we're both using the same exact pokemon with nature and EVs, yours is still better. From the standpoint of determining who's the better battler this is not an even playing field. It might show who's the better or luckier breeder, but that's not the main purpose of Smogon. A coin flip isn't much better but it's more fair than always tails.

 

[sa17dk]

For you, yes. However, to go out and imply that the majority of players or the user-base would accept this point of view would be a stretch. I can accept this point of view because perhaps Smogon is like that (or at least the mods / higher-ups), but in my experience, with my RL friends anyway, AR is deemed as cheating. Therefore, even though I can easily afford AR, I will not use it because that breaks the game for my RL group.

No one cares about your RL group in this topic. This topic is about Smogon.

 

[Dragontamer]

No one cares about your RL group in this topic. This topic is about Smogon.

Glad to know. Now lemme respond to the people who cared enough to respond to me.

I knew someone was going to come in and take my example at face value. The point is not that I ignored the most valuable stat in the game but that despite the fact that we're both using the same exact pokemon with nature and EVs, yours is still better. From the standpoint of determining who's the better battler this is not an even playing field. It might show who's the better or luckier breeder, but that's not the main purpose of Smogon. A coin flip isn't much better but it's more fair than always tails.

However, when my RL group plays Pokemon, it is not who is the better battler, but who is the best pokemon player. That includes the whole game, breeding included.

The worst part of this example is that you had complete control of breeding your pokemon. It was your choice to slack off on the IVs. You either don't really like that aspect of the game, or whatever reason. You slacked on that part.

I would argue that the better battler would indeed do everything in his power to get the 31 speed ditto and breed a 31 IV Garchomp or whatever. Clearly, if you are not smart enough to understand the importance of 31 IVs in speed, then you do not deserve them. And if you are smart enough to understand the importance, then you really have no excuse for not having one.

I'm simply pointing out that your example is an extremely flawed one as it is focused on the most important IV in the game: speed. Very clearly, this single IV is the most important IV to get. Furthermore, it is very easy to focus on a single IV and on the average should take only 4 eggs to get one. And after that point, re-breeding those two pokemon for a perfect 31 IV would give you a 31 speed IV every 2 eggs on the average.

Now if it were based on say... HP, Attack, or whatever, then maybe I could see your point.

 

[Plasia]

To say that skill in pokemon includes something outside of pokemon battling is stupid at best.

 

[General Tso]

To say that skill in pokemon includes something outside of pokemon battling is stupid at best.

Honestly, I haven't seen anyone in this topic ever say that so why are you responding to it?

 

[DEL337ED]

Honestly, I haven't seen anyone in this topic ever say that so why are you responding to it?

I think Dragontamer was sort of suggesting it when he said his RL group (which should be irrelevant for this discussion) cares about who is the best overall Pokemon trainer which includes everything, even breeding.

Also, I completely agree with Carl's example of the 29 IV Garchomp. Blaming him for not breeding better is besides the point - we're on Smogon, a place for competitive battling.

Here's a rather silly example, but it's along the same lines. Say you're going to play a competitive chess match tomorrow. But you didn't exercise enough the day before, so now your arms are too tired to move your Bishop as far diagonally, yours will only go 2 squares due to fatigue. The other Bishop staring down at you will always be able to take yours, but you may never take his. Zero percent chance of doing something you should be able to do. All because of something not even pertaining to the competitive game.

 

[darkie]

Here's a rather silly example, but it's along the same lines. Say you're going to play a competitive chess match tomorrow. But you didn't exercise enough the day before, so now your arm is too tired to move your Bishop as far diagonally, yours will only go 2 squares due to fatigue. The other Bishop staring down at you will always be able to take yours, but you may never take his. Zero percent chance of doing something you should be able to do. All because of something not even pertaining to the competitive game.

Use your other hand. :P

 

[Dragontamer]

Here's a rather silly example, but it's along the same lines. Say you're going to play a competitive chess match tomorrow. But you didn't exercise enough the day before, so now your arm is too tired to move your Bishop as far diagonally, yours will only go 2 squares due to fatigue. The other Bishop staring down at you will always be able to take yours, but you may never take his. Zero percent chance of doing something you should be able to do. All because of something not even pertaining to the competitive game.

Perhaps it is culture shock, but your metaphor seems like it has nothing to do with Pokemon. First of all, breeding has been part of the game since GSC, and IVs --- correct me if I'm wrong --- were part of RBY. From the start, the IV advantage was given so that those who catch more pokemon of the same type have an advantage over the other players.

All you have done is arbitrarily draw the line in the game between battling and the rest of the game. Yet the vast majority of RL players (I know of anyway) consider the whole game to be... the whole darn game. Basically, a different arbitrary line drawn.

I understand that these lines are arbitrary. (Emphasis) We all play the game the way we want to play. And if this is only about an argument about where Smogon stands, I don't really care. I was arguing in the more broad perspective. I figured that the way Carl responded, he took up the hypothetical of "outside smogon".

 

[sa17dk]

Perhaps it is culture shock, but your metaphor seems like it has nothing to do with Pokemon. First of all, breeding has been part of the game since GSC, and IVs --- correct me if I'm wrong --- were part of RBY. From the start, the IV advantage was given so that those who catch more pokemon of the same type have an advantage over the other players.

All you have done is arbitrarily draw the line in the game between battling and the rest of the game. Yet the vast majority of RL players (I know of anyway) consider the whole game to be... the whole darn game. Basically, a different arbitrary line drawn.

I understand that these lines are arbitrary. (Emphasis) We all play the game the way we want to play. And if this is only about an argument about where Smogon stands, I don't really care. I was arguing in the more broad perspective. I figured that the way Carl responded, he took up the hypothetical of "outside smogon".

We're talking about Smogon. The site for competitive battling. There should be no factors other than battling skill that determine the outcome of a battle. This is why I disregarded your statement about your RL friends. We dont care that your RL friends think breeding makes you a better pokemon trainer. This is strictly about battling, and in a competitive environment no one should have an irrelevant advantage.

 

[Dragontamer]

We're talking about Smogon. The site for competitive battling. There should be no factors other than battling skill that determine the outcome of a battle. This is why I disregarded your statement about your RL friends. We dont care that your RL friends think breeding makes you a better pokemon trainer. This is strictly about battling, and in a competitive environment no one should have an irrelevant advantage.

The funny thing is that the definition for "competitive battling" will change to suit the argument of the current debater. I am flexible about this definition and thus can accept both pro-AR and non-AR groups.

IMO, definition debates go in circles and are simply not fun... if you are willing to go there, you can go ahead and start defining "competitive battling" and I'll offer my definition. But I'll tell you right now that it is going to end with us stubbornly telling each other why xxx definition is superior to yyy definition.

 

[Raikou]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27298

Please, go here if you are having trouble breeding. If you have time to battle over wifi, you have time to get an easy 25+ viable Pokemon from this just for one week of effort. They even donate dittos to get you started.

This horse has been beaten to death but some people really need to stop making breeding out to be so difficult (see the link above). Most people cheat because they're lazy, not because it's necessary for a fair playing field. A fair playing field is only possible when everyone adheres to the same rules, and you are choosing to break the rules with a cheat device and put yourself above other players. If anything, the default rules should exclude, not include, the use of cheat devices to generate pokemon. Anyways, just give the breeding program a try, there are also people who will EV train for you in the wifi section. See, you really have no excuse :) If all apects of the game besides battling disinterest you completely, I'm sure competitor will be awesome when it's out.

For the time being, if you admit to cheating before a match (such as Carl), I can respect that, and I'm not going to turn down a match because of it. But you are the minority unfortunately.

 

[Kijin]

If it can be done in-game without use of a hacking device though (cloning, Rare Candies (Emerald cloning), Event Pokemon (just waiting to be caught!) and etc) though, it's fine with me.

Why is it ok? It's still cheating.

I mostly agree with this. However, first, it's not like spending time to breed is some bad or wrong, you should just say it's their "decision", rather than "fault". Although hackers may disagree, breeding is not a complete waste of time for no reason to some people, just because you are relying on a random number generator.

So why is spending money to generate good parents, competitive pokemon, items, events, and what have you also bad and wrong? Why do people who have a disposable free time get to pick and choose which adjectives they get to justify their wasted time checking with the breeding couple or moving up and down?
Seriously. We're in a discussion of luck v. skill.
Why are moves like Sheer Cold, Double Team, and repeated use of Spore, Hypnosis, etc, etc routinely banned from competitive play?
Why does it matter if your opponent has all 31 ivs or all 26 ivs, when there is literally no difference in the percentage of damage done (ignore speed and HP; 31/0 Speed and exact HP amounts are obviously important)?
Why is it OK to clone and generate items for pretty much everyone ITT against the use of AR in any way (I have seen a whopping 2 posters who say they or the people they play with are opposed to any sort of glitch/code exploitation)?

Even the analogies are completely out of control here. Steroids/whatever are banned because they're dangerous and do things to the body they should not do. A 999/999/999/999/999/999 Gloom with Fissure and No Guard is not something the game is supposed to do. 31/31/31/31/31/31- improbable? Certainly. Impossible? Hardly.

I don't see anyone complaining about playing with other people's pokemon despite being so adamant about spending hours and days and hours mixing earth and water to form their own perfect pokemon, one that is actually theirs and not "some guy"'s. That's what the game, if you want to pull out all of this "the true spirit of the pokebattal!" nonsense, is all about; what you've done, what you've accomplished, not what some guy in his basement staring at a router did after staying up all week without sleep to bust out a QUAD ZOMG BUTTSECKS Aerodactyl. If you want that primal, made it out of clay and molded it into bricks and bowls experience, good for you. But you're not playing RBY and I'm sure you have a number of pokemon you got from some dude AR'ing copies for mass distribution. Save this thread another page and pretend just for a few seconds your game runs on a rechargeable battery and not ox and cart. You live in an age where the clock has replaced the sun dial, the factory has replaced the master/journeyman/apprentice lifestyle, and travel involves fossil fuels and not whatever animals you can rope up in your back yard.

And just so we're clear, all of my pokemon are legitimate at this time. But as that 400th hour creeps up on me and with only a few "almost perfect where it counts" pokemon to show from my labors and very few trades being accepted, I'm going with my friend tomorrow to replace his AR and cutting the next 400 hours I need to spend on my game tenfold.

Who are you to tell me I can't play one of my favourite games just because I choose to use another device with it?

Because you're sinning against the great pokecommandments that states the only time you're actually playing pokemon is when you've sat at your seat praying for hours to the pokegods and raptor jesus that the number thirty one will grace all of your stats on your mach bike, ushering the utopia of scholeosis, poor eyesight, and odd looks from people who see you fettering away at your DS for days. Banned forever from the eternal salvation of Nintendo Organized play! GLORY HALLELUJAH IN THE HIGHEST[SIZE=-1]! FREE YOUR SOUL FROM THE REPLAY DEVIL! BE FREE MY SON! THE POWER OF ARCEUS COMPELS YOU!
[/SIZE]

 

[Raikou]

To the above poster, common sense dictates that certain use directly affects your opponents in battle (like hacking iv's), and other uses do not, and most of us don't give a shit what you do in your game as long as it doesn't affect us. We are not morally against cheating devices, just morally against you cheating to gain an edge on us in an actual match. Read the thread before you slam us with a wall of text.

 

[Maxwell]

if it's within the bounds of the game, I don't see the problem. If it's a ridiculous stat range of all 999, then ban it. simple stuff.

 

[Kijin]

To the above poster, common sense dictates that certain use directly affects your opponents in battle (like hacking iv's), and other uses do not, and most of us don't give a shit what you do in your game as long as it doesn't affect us. We are not morally against cheating devices, just morally against you cheating to gain an edge on us in an actual match. Read the thread before you slam us with a wall of text.

Here's a summary of the post you didn't finish to be a twat: I was playing devil's advocate with subjects that to any rational person would seem hypocritical from the onset (ex- lauding people for AR'ing pokemon, but not the items used to modify or raise/capture those pokemon).

So why is your expense of 2 days of just riding your bike for "that one perfect egg" worth so much more in the battle than the $19.99 (plus tax or shipping) I spent to get my IVs where I need them? We've each taken different routes to the SAME FUCKING END. Mine doesn't put me in 3 hours of traffic, yours doesn't have any tolls. If we're both shooting for the highest IVs possible, how the hell does sending out our respective pokemon with the highest IVs possible (and to shock and awe the dead horse, we're talking "in game, the number 31" possible, not "stat cap" possible) put either of us at any disadvantage? Upset about my 31 Special Attack IV? Well GAWRSH, you should have put in another week shooting for that 5th 31 IV in Special Defense.