Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[alexwolf]

Still doesn't change the fact offensive teams don't have a reliable answer to greninja besides sacking something and revenging it.

There aren't really reliable Greninja checks that offense can use, true, but there are some decent ones that can take on Greninja just fine if used in tandem with other checks, such as SpD Klefki, Scarf Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Mega Gyarados, Scarf Kyurem-B, AV Conkeldurr, and Empoleon. But yeah, offense is really struggling to deal with Greninja, unless you use a team full of faster Pokemon, priority users, and slower Pokemon that can take a hit and KO back, which is obviously very limiting to teambuilding.

 

[WebBowser]

Greninja is surprisingly comparable to ye olde Scarf Genesect in many ways. It outspeeds pretty much any non-scarfer, has coverage out the wazoo, and is primarily special based but can use STAB u-turn to pivot out of counters. Granted, there are some notable differences. For starters, Genesect is considerably bulkier and has considerably better defensive typing. On the other hand, Greninja's item of choice doesn't involve locking him into a move, which is a point for him. On the third hand, Genesect had viable setup sets thanks to the miracle of shift gear, while gren has PuP at best (which is a meh setup move). On the final hand, Greninja seems to have a much wider variety of sets then gene, who pretty much covered everything in one set. Not sure who that's a point for though.

I personally was very on the fence during the gene suspect, and I'm on the fence now, but it's hard to deny the similarities. They even have similar methods of counterplay. Each time gene comes out, you either have to predict u-turn or coverage move. Then you have to decide whether the risk of giving the opponent a free swap in is worse then the risk of eating a strong (probably SE) coverage move. Ofc, if the opposing gene locks himself into the wrong coverage move, you are at an advantage, but that goes for any scarfer. I heard of similar methods for playing around gren. Have a couple of decent checks and use smart switches to try and outplay the gren user. The fact that both Gren and Gene have the relatively risk free option of u-turn make them comparable.

 

[56k]

^To the above comment: I agree that the comparisans between greninja and genesect definitely are striking. Protean is awfully similar to the random download boost and both have the speed, coverage, and uturn. I'm starting to think pokemon is just "supposed" to be the place where retarded pokemons like megaluke and genesect and greninja and salamence and deoxys just duke it out. I am eagerly looking forward to what decisions the council makes, whether quickbanning or immediately suspecting or dropping things down. I wish there was a tier between ubers and ou lol.

For the time being, there seems to be a "holy trinity" of slowbro, salamence, and metagross all pseudo-checking eachother whereas meanwhile greninja, landorus, steels, fairies, dragons, and electrics all pitch in and deal with eachother. It's uncanny how every OU mon can take a hit from half of all the other OUs and fire back with status or OHKO.

 

[Raymond Quaza]

Mega Sableye seems to be pretty good in ORAS OU. It definitely is a threat with it's Calm Mind set, and for physical attackers Will-O-Wisp them. What tier will it be? I would say a possible OU/BL once ORAS is released. It definitely does have a different use than its Prankster counterpart (although you can use Prankster Sableye to Calm Mind stall and Recover with priority, then mega and attack once the physical attackers are taken care of). A set for it that I think could work is Will-O-Wisp, Calm Mind, Dark Pulse, and Recover. Magic Bounce also gives it a huge advantage over things like Taunt and Roar.

 

[Kurona]

Mega Sableye seems to be pretty good in ORAS OU. It definitely is a threat with it's Calm Mind set, and for physical attackers Will-O-Wisp them. What tier will it be? I would say a possible OU/BL once ORAS is released. It definitely does have a different use than its Prankster counterpart (although you can use Prankster Sableye to Calm Mind stall and Recover with priority, then mega and attack once the physical attackers are taken care of). A set for it that I think could work is Will-O-Wisp, Calm Mind, Dark Pulse, and Recover. Magic Bounce also gives it a huge advantage over things like Taunt and Roar.

"Pretty good"?
"BL"?
Dude, this thing's fucking INSANE. It completely controls the battlefield and is quickly becoming the new face of stall with a ridiculous amount of support options, incredible typing, a decent special attack stat and a stupidly good ability that stops hazards, crippling etc. No way is this thing ever going to BL, UU's getting freed from Sableye by the end of the month.

 

[Raymond Quaza]

"Pretty good"?
"BL"?
Dude, this thing's fucking INSANE. It completely controls the battlefield and is quickly becoming the new face of stall with a ridiculous amount of support options, incredible typing, a decent special attack stat and a stupidly good ability that stops hazards, crippling etc. No way is this thing ever going to BL, UU's getting freed from Sableye by the end of the month.

So it seems that I have, well, under exaggerated how powerful Mega Sableye is. I probably did say it like that because I haven't really used Mega Sableye all that often (although I should have taken more of a hint when I have heard of it beating teams 6 - 0). Well yes, I do agree that Mega Sableye will change the meta once ORAS is out, and after the mega mence ban (that is too obvious to even mention) Sableye will start taking over OU. Well, since this will happen, I better make sure to use more fairy types to check it.

 

[Inflikted]

Still doesn't change the fact offensive teams don't have a reliable answer to greninja besides sacking something and revenging it.

Agreeing completely. From my experience on the oras ladder, Greninja is retarded, and I will support its ban when it will finally be suspected.

I'd also like to add that while offensive teams struggle to deal with it in general, "traditional" Hyper Offense (i mean, not based on sash / priority spam, which I don't honestly consider too good either due to their inherent stall weakness) in particular is practically unviable atm, and a this is not a sign of a healthy metagame. You may argue that Mence contributes to this, but Mence makes basically any team that does not run it worse so it doesn't really matter. And you can't say "run P2 / chansey / cress" because no offensive team can afford do run those due to their lack of offensive presence that makes the team worse against anything else. Now that even AV kyuB is 2hkoed with gunk shot after SR, the only answers seem to be Klefki and Scarf Keldeo, which can only come in like once if the Greninja user predicts correctly. So yea, if you don't run balance or stall, your only chance to deal with a well played greninja is a bulky offensive team with multiple checks to deal with all the viable coverage options it runs, which is a bit too much in my opinion.

 

[Flamer]

With the big increase of greninja usage a mon Ive had a lot of fun using recently is Scarf Magneton instead of Zone. Scarfton has the distinct advantage of outspeeding and OHKOing ninja without sacrificing a lot of Zone's benefits apart from bulk. This boosted speed is also useful in beating base 115 mons like Starmie etc and Outspeeding Talonflame with enough speed to outpace base 115s. Certainly a mon with a unable niche over its big brother.

 

[greengrappler]

After using my take on the HydreiGross core I find it to be less effective than I thought. It hates Mega Sableye, Hydreigon is too frail, and Meta has no reliable form of recovery. I did find that the core obliterates Clefable with ease though (Hydra U-turns into Gross who Meteor Mashes it into dust.)

 

[WebBowser]

After using my take on the HydreiGross core I find it to be less effective than I thought. It hates Mega Sableye, Hydreigon is too frail, and Meta has no reliable form of recovery. I did find that the core obliterates Clefable with ease though (Hydra U-turns into Gross who Meteor Mashes it into dust.)

Run a fairy for the almighty steel fairy dragon core? Something like fire blast Clefable would work well.

 

[alexwolf]

Here is a set i have been thinking about using:

Pangoro (M) @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Gunk Shot
- Parting Shot / Ice Punch

Pangoro is a great wallbreaker, as the only Pokemon that wall it with SR up are physically defensive Hippowdon, physically defensive Mega Venusaur, and physically defensive Gliscor, assuming Poison Heal has already been activated, of which Gliscor loses if Pangoro has Ice Punch. Even the almighty Mega Slowbro is 2HKOed 50% of the time by Knock Off, after SR. Also, Scrappy Superpower is wonderful to OHKO Mega Sableye, as is countering SubCM Stored Power Mega Latias while simultaneously being able to get past all the common answers to Dark-types that are paired with Mega Latias. Pangoro is fast enough to outspeed most defensive Pokemon and brings not only power, but tons of utility with Knock Off and Parting Shot. Speaking about Parting Shot, it is an amazing move to use whenever you don't feel like predicting, and turns the few Pokemon that check Pangoro into even bigger set up bait. For example, SubCM Keldeo and SubDD Mega Gyarados can easily and gladly set up against all the three Pokemon that counter Pangoro, assuming Hippowdon doesn't have Whirlwind or doesn't stay in (Gyarados needs to be on its regular forme to set up on Mega Venusaur).

So yeah, i am really looking forward to see how Pangoro will fare in OU.

 

[shilly]

Here is a set i have been thinking about using:

Pangoro (M) @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Gunk Shot
- Parting Shot / Ice Punch

Pangoro is a great wallbreaker, as the only Pokemon that wall it with SR up are physically defensive Hippowdon, physically defensive Mega Venusaur, and physically defensive Gliscor, assuming Poison Heal has already been activated. Even the almighty Mega Slowbro is 2HKOed 50% of the time by Knock Off, after SR. Also, Scrappy Superpower is wonderful to OHKO Mega Sableye, as is countering SubCM Stored Power Mega Latias while simultaneously being able to get past all the common answers to Dark-types that are paired with Mega Latias. Pangoro is fast enough to outspeed most defensive Pokemon and brings not only power, but tons of utility with Knock Off and Parting Shot. Speaking about Parting Shot, it is an amazing move to use whenever you don't feel like predicting, and turns the few Pokemon that check Pangoro into even bigger set up bait. For example, SubCM Keldeo and SubDD Mega Gyarados can easily and gladly set up against all the three Pokemon that counter Pangoro, assuming Hippowdon doesn't have Whirlwind or doesn't stay in (Gyarados needs to be on its regular forme to set up on Mega Venusaur).

So yeah, i am really looking forward to see how Pangoro will fare in OU.

this set looks like a lot of fun to use. pangoro has a fantastic offensive typing with a great attack stat and as of oras a pretty damn OK movepool as a cherry on top. i might just build a team around bancho panda and see how he works out in the metagame, despite being relatively lower-tier as of rn.

 

[greengrappler]

Run a fairy for the almighty steel fairy dragon core? Something like fire blast Clefable would work well.

'Cause I hate fairies. Anyways, I would be looking more for someone to reliably take out mega Sableye. (What neutral moves 1HKO him anyways?)

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

'Cause I hate fairies. Anyways, I would be looking more for someone to reliably take out mega Sableye. (What neutral moves 1HKO him anyways?)

Hmm what is something that could take out mega sableye? [insert any fairy here]

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

'Cause I hate fairies. Anyways, I would be looking more for someone to reliably take out mega Sableye.

(What neutral moves 1HKO him anyways?)

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%)


Though in seriousness:
-Fairies
-Mega Lopunny, but can't switch in to Wisp
-CM Unaware Clefable
-Kingdra does tons with Specs Hydro in Rain, as would things like Keldeo
-Y-zard does a lot. X-zard can set-up on it
-Mega Gardevoir
-Various Lum+SD things and Sub users
-Mega Altaria
-Hard hitters in general, as Sableye has few resistances
-THE FAIR FOLK

alexwolf EDIT: And TG + RD Manaphy.

 

[JebusChrist]

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%)


Though in seriousness:
-Fairies
-Mega Lopunny, but can't switch in to Wisp
-CM Unaware Clefable
-Kingdra does tons with Specs Hydro in Rain, as would things like Keldeo
-Y-zard does a lot. X-zard can set-up on it
-Mega Gardevoir
-Various Lum+SD things and Sub users
-Mega Altaria
-Hard hitters in general, as Sableye has few resistances
-THE FAIR FOLK

alexwolf EDIT: And TG + RD Manaphy.

Mega Gyarados w/Mold Breaker Taunt laughs at everything Sableye has

 

[WebBowser]

Specially based setup sweepers like NP thundy and TG manaphy (rain dance optional) work very well against this guy.

 

[Machi]

Or just use Mega-Diancie as she can also laugh at base form of MSable and pretty much apply pressure to him through out the match.

 

[Raymond Quaza]

Or just use Mega-Diancie as she can also laugh at base form of MSable and pretty much apply pressure to him through out the match.

I actually have not thought about Mega Diancie as a counter to Sableye. I do agree that it would be good against it, but the only annoying part is that if Sableye has CM set up. Mega Diancie really is more impressive than its base form overall though. If only it got Play Rough...

 

[Firebird101]

I feel people are forgetting to mention the pre-mega Sableye cripples physical attackers with it's prankster WoW so a well played Sableye shouldn't be mega evolving until Mega Lopunny, Mega Gyarados and other threatening physical sweepers have been taken care of or rendered useless. That is the genius of Sableye. It threatens so many mind-games it makes it extremely hard to predict and favorable matchups against so many hazard settlers and sweepers. It's weakness is it's special defense before it stacks up those calm minds so having a strong special attacker not weak to ghost/dark types is really the best way to go against Sableye (or a sd sweeper with fire immunity ^^).

 

[Sucker Lunch]

One thing that gets on my nerves is when someone suggests, "HEY, JUST USE THIS MEGA TO COUNTER THIS MEGA"
So what you're saying is that I have to base my team around a pokemon I don't want to base my team around in order to defeat one threat.
Geeeeeee thanksssssssss. Geez, I hate how sabelye is forcing the use of fairies clefable and sylveon for like every team. Diance gets fair mention but it's really not that great without the mega evo.

 

[Machi]

I actually have not thought about Mega Diancie as a counter to Sableye. I do agree that it would be good against it, but the only annoying part is that if Sableye has CM set up. Mega Diancie really is more impressive than its base form overall though. If only it got Play Rough...

Which is exactly what you won't let MSable do since you apply pressure.
252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The lowest you can run for SpA while still maintaining a 2HKO is 132 SpA EVs:
132 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While MSable would deal a 2HKO at that point:
+1 4 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 160-190 (66.3 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It does become shaky at +2 since it becomes a chance OHKO:
+2 4 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 214-253 (88.7 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Otherwise, I don't think you'd wait till +2 to send in what would be your answer so I'll assume +1 is more common place for an attack. Though the rest of his variants, especially the more common knock off variant (based on stats), shouldn't exactly pose an issue otherwise.

 

[skies]

Which is exactly what you won't let MSable do since you apply pressure.
252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The lowest you can run for SpA while still maintaining a 2HKO is 132 SpA EVs:
132 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While MSable won't be doing much against you:
+2 0- SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 85-102 (35.2 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 0- SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 42-51 (17.4 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO

I would give the benefit of the doubt at +2 since I sincerely don't think you'd wait until +3 or +4 to send in what should be your best answer.

Why would it run 0-?
+2 4 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 154-183 (63.9 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Machi]

Why would it run 0-?
+2 4 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 154-183 (63.9 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh shoot forgot to change that from the OU set XD

One thing that gets on my nerves is when someone suggests, "HEY, JUST USE THIS MEGA TO COUNTER THIS MEGA"
So what you're saying is that I have to base my team around a pokemon I don't want to base my team around in order to defeat one threat.
Geeeeeee thanksssssssss. Geez, I hate how sabelye is forcing the use of fairies clefable and sylveon for like every team. Diance gets fair mention but it's really not that great without the mega evo.

The thing is most of the new megas are quite good so it isn't exactly a problem to build around them, if you look at the viability rankings the suggested ones are in the A to A+ range. Suggestions like MLop, MAlt, and MDiancie are all quite easy to fit into teams and build around, they are quite versatile especially MAlt. Otherwise, there is a reason why Clefable has been rising in popularity, Sylveon not so much.

Otherwise, I wouldn't say that I pack a fairy type just for Sableye but that it is just a very good typing, and it does help to check or put pressure on the every present MSalamence (so he doesn't have a free switch) or a switch in to Lati@s. Or in other cases to check new fighters like MGallade or MLop.

 

[master_marshmallow]

CharX and Talonflame do well in the face of sable because they cannot be burned, something that azu cannot say.
CharX in particular is bulky enough to gain a turn to set up, what are the calcs on a +1 252+ atk Flare Blitz on this thing?