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252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
You are assuming Sableye can easily switch in, but it can only do this after going mega... (well, it does a good job against Terrak) and considering these setters are leads (bar Lando-T), you need to predict and anti-lead against them.
Well one Sabeleye makes a great lead for stall teams so that is not really much of a problem.
Even if it doesn't it can come in and tank these hits. Use Prankster to recover and outspeed and megaevolve tanking hits more comfortably afterward. Also SR setter LandoT is usually bulky
Mega Sableye quickly patches up a few major problems stall had in early-mid XY as well as bad players using it, often times stall was bad because it was just too damn passive. Yeah I know thats the point, "residual damage", but the most common problem with bad stall is how easy it is to overwhelm with good hazard stacking and the lack of a real offensive threat. No matter how tanky your Pokemon are and how good their defensive synergy is if you cant threaten to do meaningful damage you will eventually be overwhelmed by well played stallbreakers such as Mew and Gengar.
Sableye is an easy fix to these problems. Magic Bounce is an incredible ability for it allowing it to combat traditional stallbreakers and providing additional defense against hazards (obviously you'll still want to run Defog). It's CM set is arguably its best set and gives stall a way to apply offensive pressure and force desirable switches at the threat of sweeping your opponent otherwise.
In addition, Sableye is great on more balanced teams as well and even bulky offense as a stallbreaker itself, so it's definitely not unviable outside of stall at all.
I think it deserves A+, this thing is a team player.
Lets also address something else.
How do we feel about Dragonite in A?
The Banded set is probably the best set right now because Landorus isnt as common in ORAS and Mega Mence is pretty much better in every other role right now, even Mega Altaria has a better chance to sweep with a DD set than this thing and Lati@s checks Keldeo a lot better (since it doesnt care much for scald burns) and then some. Is the Banded set really enough for A? I mean its pretty good still and Multiscale is chill but I'm not sure If I'm seeing how its any more viable than Kyurem-B right now, who is in A-.
Can we put Greninja in S+? It's been made obviously clear in the comments (and in battles lol) that Mega Salamence and Greninja are obviously the best Pokemon in the tier, and I feel the list should show it.
Greninja was S Rank in XY, and arguably the best Pokemon in the tier. It was fastest non-scarfer in the tier, the fastest hazard setter, and had outstanding offensive presence thanks to its ability, stats, and moveset. It could get walled by Clefable and Chansey, but Clefable didn't appreciate taking Hydros to the face, and Chansey gave it many opportunities to set up free Spikes.
Receiving Gunk Shot in ORAS gives it a much heftier answer to Fairy types, and it can even deal with some of the new Megas, if not seriously threaten them (assuming they aren't set up):
Mega Altaria --> loses
Mega Camerupt --> loses
Mega Diancie --> loses
Mega Pidgeot --> loses
Mega Salamence --> loses
Mega Slowbro --> loses
Mega Steelix --> loses
Mega Swampert --> loses
Mega Beedrill --> wins after first MEvo turn, but can't switch in
Mega Lopunny --> wins after first MEvo turn, but can't switch in
Mega Sceptile --> wins after first MEvo turn, but can't switch in
Mega Sharpedo --> wins if you boosted before MEvo, but can't switch in
Mega Gallade --> wins, but can't switch in
Mega Latias --> wins, but can't switch in
Mega Latios --> wins, but can't switch in
Mega Audino --> could possibly stall Gunk Shot, but can't hurt poison Greninja. Can't switch in
Mega Glalie --> 62.5% chance to OHKO Water-type Greninja with Explosion, but can't switch in (18.8% chance to lose to an HP Fire)
Mega Metagross --> 75% chance to survive Dark Pulse, but can't switch in
Mega Sableye --> Hydro Pump deals more than half, but MSable may be able to stall it for 8 turns. Help me out? Still, can't switch in
Noticing a trend? Some of these new megas can defeat Greninja 1v1 but none can switch in.
Can we put Greninja in S+? It's been made obviously clear in the comments (and in battles lol) that Mega Salamence and Greninja are obviously the best Pokemon in the tier, and I feel the list should show it.
Greninja was S Rank in XY, and arguably the best Pokemon in the tier. It was fastest non-scarfer in the tier, the fastest hazard setter, and had outstanding offensive presence thanks to its ability, stats, and moveset. It could get walled by Clefable and Chansey, but Clefable didn't appreciate taking Hydros to the face, and Chansey gave it many opportunities to set up free Spikes.
Receiving Gunk Shot in ORAS gives it a much heftier answer to Fairy types, and it can even deal with some of the new Megas, if not seriously threaten them (assuming they aren't set up):
Mega Altaria --> loses
Mega Camerupt --> loses
Mega Diancie --> loses
Mega Pidgeot --> loses
Mega Salamence --> loses
Mega Slowbro --> loses
Mega Steelix --> loses
Mega Swampert --> loses
Mega Beedrill --> wins after first MEvo turn, but can't switch in
Mega Lopunny --> wins after first MEvo turn, but can't switch in
Mega Sceptile --> wins after first MEvo turn, but can't switch in
Mega Sharpedo --> wins if you boosted before MEvo, but can't switch in
Mega Gallade --> wins, but can't switch in
Mega Latias --> wins, but can't switch in
Mega Latios --> wins, but can't switch in
Mega Audino --> could possibly stall Gunk Shot, but can't hurt poison Greninja. Can't switch in
Mega Glalie --> 62.5% chance to OHKO Water-type Greninja with Explosion, but can't switch in (18.8% chance to lose to an HP Fire)
Mega Metagross --> 75% chance to survive Dark Pulse, but can't switch in
Mega Sableye --> Hydro Pump deals more than half, but MSable may be able to stall it for 8 turns. Help me out? Still, can't switch in
Noticing a trend? Some of these new megas can defeat Greninja 1v1 but none can switch in.
The thing is, this is entirely based on the situation in which ninja comes in. The same could have been said about Keldeo in XY as well as BW. Now, don't get me wrong, I definitely think it's suspect worthy (quick banned, not so much), but I wouldn't go as far as putting it in the same rank as mMence. . . This is fucking Mega mence, there's absolutely no way Ninja is on the same level as mega mence. I agree it's a bit too good, but not quite enough to be in freaking S+.
-> S rank
LOL, why the hell isn't mega gross S rank. Great bulk, typing attack, ability, movepool and versatility that makes it a threat to all teams, this thing is easy S rank.
-> S
A lot better in ORAS with so much fast stuff everywhere, 111 outspeeds mega gross and gallade which is also nice.Twave ;-;
-> A+
THIS THING IS A-!!??? Mega sableye is a bloody lord and one of the most dangerous megas in ORAS. Great bulk, ability pre mevo and after as well as excellent typing and movepool make this a ridiculous threat.
-> A-/B+
A tone of competition for a fast mega now, still a threat but has competiton.
-> B
Why hasn't this been done? Ridiculous competition with gallade who is almost 100% better, competely walled by mega sableye as well.
A-
So many new checks in mega gross, mega diancie, mega altaria and mega scept and loppuny that outspeed it even after a dd.
->A+ imo Sceptile is very contre rotom-wash and good speed. Sceptile+1 rip ;-;
Damn, Ive been gone for a few days due to a broken laptop charger(stupid dog), so there is a lot I would like to talk about. So instead of wasting my time by agreeing with changes that have been proposed I think I will only discuss the major/controversial changes going around. First up is...
Actually let me preface this, at the start of ORAS I basically had an option; Pick a broken mon and build around it, or build a counter team to the broken threats. Naturally I chose to build a counter team, meaning I have P2 and clefable which together can beat all the amazing new megas and fair well against the rest of the meta. I am just saying this because it definitely affects my view on certain mons because they have been more manageable for me because of how much I prepared for them. I mean honestly with my current team I wouldnt even mind if megamence stayed (but I know it obviously needs to go). anyway moving on.
Mega Sableye-> A+Let me start by saying I think this mon is way better than most of us expected it would be, I mean I personally thought prankster was a must and it losing it would be a detriment. But it turns out to be a godsend for stall, and is able to bring a level of overall control into the game that stall isnt use to having with just one pokemon. Its ability to nerf physical offensive mons, provide amazing hazard control, beat almost all stallbreakers, and be a nice wincon against balance and stall teams seems to be amazing. My personal favorite thing about Mega Sableye is that if it is normal sableye it usually has the choice to either calm mind or willo turn 1, meaning if it is facing a physical attacker its defense gets effectively (more than) doubled, and if its a special attacker it can calm mind meaning its special defense gets a nice 1.5-1.7x boost, allowing it to really handle just about anything without fairy coverage. With all those good things being said, I think this mon should only move up to A+ for the time being. Mainly because it isnt always a huge issue to deal with. There are plenty of offensive teams that mega sableye just simply can not switch into like half the team, and that really puts a limit on stall. I know that sounds like just bad matchup but if we are trying to get him into S rank then I think we should be able to say that it is always beneficial to have mega sableye on your team. But that just doesnt seem to be the case, I mean if it is up against a decent team that has prepared for major threats it could basically be a huge detriment to have mega sableye. For example: If you have mega sableye as your answer to something like garchomp but he has a lum berry now your team is dealing with a +2 threat and you just lost your prankster ability because you wanted the defense boost in addition to the burn. There are quite a few situations that I could mention, granted all of them involve running either lum berry or substitute, but hey if you have to sacrifice one moveslot or item slot in order to beat a pokemon that is supposedly S rank I think its not that bad. And those are just ways to beat Msableye unconventionally, there is still the fact that Mega Sableye is always a free switch into clefable, which can really be a problem since a common (effective) Msabley core is tentacruel + jirachi, and clefable has coverage to hit both of those mons, so you have to constantly be dealing with the predictability of switching them in which could allow double switches into mons that can sub on tentacruel or jirachi, hell the other day I saw this core get completely floored by substitute lando-t which subbed on the already megad sableye and proceeded to destroy that teams life. But yeah I can see sableye moving to S rank and I have no problems with it, I just think that it is an A+ mon but we feel like it should be S because it is bringing things to the table we havent really seen before.
Mega Manectric->A- This was one of my favorite megas design wise but my lord was I underwhelmed by its power, I mean the ONLY role this thing has is to volt switch religiously but most of the time even mons that are hit SE by his volt switch dont mind staying in, especially if they have recovery. Calcs here:
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 240 HP / 244+ SpD Tentacruel: 128-152 (35.4 - 42.1%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 236-282 (59.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 186-218 (43.9 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I mean seriously it cant even OHKO mons with tbolt if it hits them SE, this guy is pretty pathetic and his only benefit is increased speed but all it can do with that speed is be threatening for 1 turn, wheras something like mega sceptile can not only force switches but it can take advantage by setting up a sub and now it can potentially sweep because its would be revenge killer cant take a hit. I guess what I am saying is that Mega Manectric is basically never a win condition unless you reallllllly wear down the other team and at that point, what isnt a win condition? This thing is just too damn weak to ever be considered A+ rank and while it is great and grabbing some momentum, there are other mons that can get it for you without wasting a mega slot which is the main reason I think it should say wherever it is( I have no idea what its currently ranked just better not be A+)
Magnezone->A+ Ok funny story/warning for you guys, ill make this quick, MAKE SURE ITS MAGNET PULL MAGNEZONE. I was getting molly whopped by an analytic choice specs magnezone, so while I thought I was being cool tactically keeping out my ferrothorn, he was over there dropping bombs on all my switches and then ended up "trapping" my ferrothorn anyway only to realize later that he was analytic the whole time, so just be careful with that lol. But seriously I think this thing has shaped the metagame and defintely deserves A+, I mean seriously this is how offensive cores have been for the past few months and even moreso now in ORAS, Amazing offensive mon + magnezone, I also saw someone point out that it allows that amazing offensive mon to run even more optimal moves and I totally agree. And on top of that even against teams without steels to trap I think it is a useful mon in almost every battle even if it just ends up being death fodder, but I find it can usually drop a very hard hitting flash cannon which can still OHKO clefable if its +1, which is honestly reason enough, but it also can run scarf which can handle offensive teams. So yeah depending on the set magnezone can be effective against just about every team and definteily deserves a raise.
Excadrill-You guys seriously want to move this thing down? -.- Just no.
And I think I am going to end with mega aerodactyl cuz I need a break XD.
Mega aerodactyl->A-/A My lord is this thing overhyped, all the things I have heard you guys say he is great is assuming he is either at 75% or 100%, I mean seriously, most of the posts I have seen are like " Look it can take 2 talonflame brave birds" but then I see that it can only do so by living with like exactly 1hp. I mean I guess if you preserve mega aero til late game it is very effective, has great coverage/ability, and is in a godlike speed tier. But I typically dont like raving over late game cleaners (except sharpedo cuz he is awesome) because they seem to only be effective if you had a dominant control over the whole game from the start. I mean to end this, it is still constantly baited by prominent scarfers like keldeo or lando-t, it wants to come in more often than it is able to thanks to the crippling SR weakness, and if it wants to be a stallbreaker set it loses key coverage that makes him damn near useless against most other teams. Having to choose between two sets that sacrifice so much doesnt seem characteristic of an A+ mon I am fine with A I guess but I think it should be A-.
I disagree with putting Greninja in S+ because even though it's by and large the best thing in S rank, it doesn't even come close to MMence in terms of sheer ridiculousness. Gren's thing is harassing offense, but if anything, MMence is even better vs offense : same speed tier (the difference between 120 and 123 Speed is almost nonexistent), much higher bulk making it way harder to revenge kill, ability to set up (really easily no less), hits way harder and requires almost no prediction while doing so, and though it's slow before mega it megas extremely easily thanks to Intimidate. And it's obviously far better than Gren vs both balance and stall. Once MMence gets the hammer I definitely see it in S+ but not right now.
Rotom-W probably deserves to move up not only because it's one of the best Mence switchins there is (doesn't like the Sub set but you can always run that weird 168-or-so SpA spread - lol if the fact that people are actually running this doesn't prove Mence is overcentralising then I don't know what does), but also because it benefits from the influx of fast Megas such as Lopunny and Beedrill, not just because it checks a few of them but also because it acts as a good partner to them thanks to its ability to give them a free opportunity to come in via Volt Switch.
Ferrothorn I'm a bit less sold on, because although it's probably improved in the transition to ORAS due to a decrease in wallbreakers, particularly MHera and YZard who were major thorns in his side (haha, get it? Because Ferro-nvm) and are virually nonexistent in ORAS (they're not necessarily bad, just that no-one uses them), there are a couple of new Megas that take advantage of it such as Sableye, Gallade, Sub Mence, and Sub Lopunny.
About "bad teambuilding" : I don't think this point is really that valid because unless I'm mistaken, we're judging viability not based on how Pokemon fare against what is good, but rather against what is popular and commonly used. Otherwise we'll just end up in a circular argument where X underused antimeta threat is good because it beats Y popular threat, therefore Y threat is no longer as good because it loses to X that is good, therefore X is less good because Y is less good, etc... Although Pokemon like YZard and MHera are still good, the Pokemon they used to beat are better because of their diminished popularity. And although teams that lose MAero are not particularly well-built because, well, they lose to MAero, they are still popular and can be successful on the ladder due to the rarity of MAero, which in return makes MAero more viable because it handles those popular teams. Just my two cents.
Mega Manectric->A- This was one of my favorite megas design wise but my lord was I underwhelmed by its power, I mean the ONLY role this thing has is to volt switch religiously but most of the time even mons that are hit SE by his volt switch dont mind staying in, especially if they have recovery. Calcs here:
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 240 HP / 244+ SpD Tentacruel: 128-152 (35.4 - 42.1%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 236-282 (59.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 186-218 (43.9 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I mean seriously it cant even OHKO mons with tbolt if it hits them SE, this guy is pretty pathetic and his only benefit is increased speed but all it can do with that speed is be threatening for 1 turn, wheras something like mega sceptile can not only force switches but it can take advantage by setting up a sub and now it can potentially sweep because its would be revenge killer cant take a hit. I guess what I am saying is that Mega Manectric is basically never a win condition unless you reallllllly wear down the other team and at that point, what isnt a win condition? This thing is just too damn weak to ever be considered A+ rank and while it is great and grabbing some momentum, there are other mons that can get it for you without wasting a mega slot which is the main reason I think it should say wherever it is( I have no idea what its currently ranked just better not be A+)
Your lack of understanding how Mega Manectric works is absolutely hilarious. Just what are you trying to prove with those calcs? Sure, Volt Switch may not do that much damage, but it's not meant to. If you're trying to use Mega Manectric as a sweeper and compare it to Mega Sceptile, you're using it wrongly. Mega Manectric is a scout, late-game cleaner and most importantly an excellent check to many of the physical threats that currently run rampant in OU. If there's something it can't KO, it just Volt Switches outta there to a teammate that CAN deal with said opponent. As pointed out before, it's one of the best Pokémon to use against mono-attacking Mega Salamence, since it's not taking much from Return unless boosted and has a decent chance to OHKO with HP Ice, especially after SR. This makes Mega Manectric the best Pokémon to use on HO teams, since it retains offensive pressure as it scouts and partners excellently with many commonly-used Pokémon, in particular Landorus-T, with which Mega Manectric forms a dual-Intimidate VoltTurn core that seriously scares physical attackers. That blistering Speed stat gives this thunderdog the ability to outpace a huge slew of common Pokémon, including non-Scarf Greninja, Mega Lopunny (rarely runs max Speed IIRC), Mega Salamence, Mega Gallade, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, Mega Sharpedo and so many more. It's not the strongest attacker in the world, but does have enough power and utility to beat and/or cripple what it needs to deal with. All in all, Mega Manectric does its job extremely well and is an incredibly useful Pokémon for offensive teams to maintain momentum and check most common threats with. Definitely A+ material.
Your lack of understanding how Mega Manectric works is absolutely hilarious. Just what are you trying to prove with those calcs? Sure, Volt Switch may not do that much damage, but it's not meant to. If you're trying to use Mega Manectric as a sweeper and compare it to Mega Sceptile, you're using it wrongly. Mega Manectric is a scout, late-game cleaner and most importantly an excellent check to many of the physical threats that currently run rampant in OU. If there's something it can't KO, it just Volt Switches outta there to a teammate that CAN deal with said opponent. As pointed out before, it's one of the best Pokémon to use against mono-attacking Mega Salamence, since it's not taking much from Return unless boosted and has a decent chance to OHKO with HP Ice, especially after SR. This makes Mega Manectric the best Pokémon to use on HO teams, since it retains offensive pressure as it scouts and partners excellently with many commonly-used Pokémon, in particular Landorus-T, with which Mega Manectric forms a dual-Intimidate VoltTurn core that seriously scares physical attackers. That blistering Speed stat gives this thunderdog the ability to outpace a huge slew of common Pokémon, including non-Scarf Greninja, Mega Lopunny (rarely runs max Speed IIRC), Mega Salamence, Mega Gallade, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, Mega Sharpedo and so many more. It's not the strongest attacker in the world, but does have enough power and utility to beat and/or cripple what it needs to deal with. All in all, Mega Manectric does its job extremely well and is an incredibly useful Pokémon for offensive teams to maintain momentum and check most common threats with. Definitely A+ material.
ok lets try and keep this as civil as possible, because I get the feeling like you think I just offended your family's honor. But what exactly is Mega Manectric's role in your mind? Because it seems like your idea of an A+ pokemon is one that cant really handle anything on its own but rather something that relies on the rest of its team to do its job for it. An A+ mon is something that should add to the team not demand it have other pokemon to accompany it to take out all the threats, I will admit that manectric + lando-t is quite an effective core but I think that is largely because lando-t deserves to be S rank, you must be letting that skew your sense of mega manectric. Also in the current metagame, its important to consider Mega Manectric doesnt have as easy of a time Mega evolving against offensive teams, I mean it gets outright outsped and OHKOd by greninja, it cant do it to garchomp because they can live an hp ice and OHKO with eq, gengar and latios can both outspeed and OHKO,scarf lando-t is a common lead that can just destroy manectric, hell even specs magnezone can live an overheat and do like 80% with thunderbolt and all those are very common on offensive teams. Then we look at stall teams who just get up hazards and wear him down because he has no recovery and is designed to come in ALOT meaning he is taking damage non stop while inflicting minimal damage to stall only to switch out to a mon to " better handle the situation" but then guess what? Stall can just switch out again and heal up when it gets a chance, while manectric does not have that chance. Then we get to balance and this is probably his best matchup as far as getting momentum goes, but he still has to now be wary of random scarfers that are increasingly common in order to handle everything else. Honestly I think if it werent for landorus-t being such a god, you wouldnt be so quick to run to manectrics side, in fact I think manectric has gotten slightly worse this generation because people are preparing more and more for faster mons and manectric brings nothing new to the table and is incredibly predictable.
Now to explain my apparently retarded calcs, the idea is that we are assuming you are switching manectric into a slowbro probably just took a scald(maybe a burn +sr) and could potentially have just taken around 40% for that turn, you volt switch only to have slowbro use slack off and get all his health back. What exactly did manectric accomplish? I mean I know what you are going to say already, "well I wouldve brought manectric in safely because slowbro wouldve switched into my lando-t and I wouldve uturned" yeah thats great and sounds good on paper but the fact that if there is a slowbro out on the field and manectric isnt even a reliable way to deal with it without getting free switches is sad. My main point is that manectric needs to be played perfectly, and I mean perfectly. You have to play him safe, bring him in on u-turns, volt switch constantly because he cant deal with shit on his own, if you mess up even once he just lost half of his health or got OHKOd because you werent being perfect. Surely you see my point that having to constantly make predictions and keep manectric healthy can become difficult throughout a whole match.
I guess my last point(until you respond) is that he needs team support and alot of it. If he isnt being brought in through other volt-turns he is taking damage, and he just cant afford that. This basically mean that if you want to use MegaMan you need a volt-turn team, and again I have seen plenty of successful volt-turn teams but the fact is you dont get to be an A+ mon because you excel at being part of a core on one style of team that can be effective some of the time. I think his ranking is perfect in A.
Actually to more directly respond to your post, your main arguement for him being on an offensive team is for mega salamence and how he is taking these unboosted returns?
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric: 118-139 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
not well, he can switch in one time with SR, and nobody decent would try and DD, but anyway I dont even want to talk about Megamence. I just would really like you to clarify what you mean when you say this "If there's something it can't KO, it just Volt Switches outta there to a teammate that CAN deal with said opponent."
Because to the first part of the quote, let me save you some trouble, he cant KO it. As for the second part it speaks to what I was saying in regards to his need for team support and basically an entire type of playstyle just to make him effective. To me being forced to use one playstyle to utilize one mon effectively is not characteristic of A+ but I am curious what you have to say.
Albacore I agree the Mevo problem could be solved with protect(but thats lame lol). But I have to disagree with what you said about lando-t, because not only does he bring an element of uncertainty to team preview(while manectric actually brings the opposite), but lando-t really only needs something like rotom-w, who is hard to find a reason to keep that little washing machine off your team as it is. But mainly my point is that manectric is found purely on volt-turn teams, while lando-t has the versatility to be on any team from balance to offense. It also isnt fair to compare scarf-lando-t to manectric mega, because scarf lando-t isnt a pokemon, just lando-t is and he can be on many more teams without as much support.
MegaScizor I'm neutral on where MManectric goes, but everything you said about MManectric relying on its teammates can also be applied to Scarf Landorus-T, so I don't see how one of these is so much better as a standalone set than the other.
Also you can easily run Protect to mega vs offense more easily, because let's be real here, when do you ever use Tbolt?
Yeah M-Manectric isn't designed to sweep or provide some sort of crazy versatility. It's designed to clean and take advantage of offense who fall under its speed tier as it'll have the clear advantage with those. Also M-Manectric isn't that hard to support. Hazard removal, ground resist/immunity is the bare minimum as everything else is naturally implemented on any solid M-Manectric build. Protect M-Manectric is a thing same way as Protect M-Alakazam is a thing, to improve its matchup against offense and be able to scout choice users and hit its necessary speed tier. Volt-turn team =/= Volt-turn core. M-Manectric falls under the latter most times so it's not mandatory that you need M-Manectric on a volt-turn team. The advantage it has against stall builds is that it can pretty much chooses what it wants to do at that point, either clean or volt-turn out. I have no real opinion on the matter as I think M-Manectric is fine in either A or A+, more towards A cause of lack of versatility in my eyes, but the idea that anything in the A+ rank single handedly handles all archetypes is an unrealistic claim and all the A+ ranked mons have their fair share of issues.
Yeah M-Manectric isn't designed to sweep or provide some sort of crazy versatility. It's designed to clean and take advantage of offense who fall under its speed tier as it'll have the clear advantage with those. Also M-Manectric isn't that hard to support. Hazard removal, ground resist/immunity is the bare minimum as everything else is naturally implemented on any solid M-Manectric build. Protect M-Manectric is a thing same way as Protect M-Alakazam is a thing, to improve its matchup against offense and be able to scout choice users and hit its necessary speed tier. Volt-turn team =/= Volt-turn core. M-Manectric falls under the latter most times so it's not mandatory that you need M-Manectric on a volt-turn team. The advantage it has against stall builds is that it can pretty much chooses what it wants to do at that point, either clean or volt-turn out. I have no real opinion on the matter as I think M-Manectric is fine in either A or A+, more towards A cause of lack of versatility in my eyes, but the idea that anything in the A+ rank single handedly handles all archetypes is an unrealistic claim and all the A+ ranked mons have their fair share of issues.
Yeah I see the utility and value of manectric definitely, but all I am saying with the volt-turn teams is basically that most volt-turn cores carry similiar partners. I am speaking from personal experience so it may be different with others, but when I start around mega manectric(which I have cuz I think hes p cool) I immediately get like 10 mons that pop into my head and I just pick 5. I guess to keep it simple, I will just say that he just doesnt have the versatility or tools to handle enough things in order to move up to A+ rank. And while I see the desire to move him up because he has a good speed tier, I think whatever benefits he gained from that are canceled out by the increase in preparation for faster mons.
Yeah I see the utility and value of manectric definitely, but all I am saying with the volt-turn teams is basically that most volt-turn cores carry similiar partners. I am speaking from personal experience so it may be different with others, but when I start around mega manectric(which I have cuz I think hes p cool) I immediately get like 10 mons that pop into my head and I just pick 5. I guess to keep it simple, I will just say that he just doesnt have the versatility or tools to handle enough things in order to move up to A+ rank. And while I see the desire to move him up because he has a good speed tier, I think whatever benefits he gained from that are canceled out by the increase in preparation for faster mons.
I'm not actually disagreeing with you I was just pointing out the wrong claims about it. I think it's fine at A when you compare how it fares in viability amongst the A+ ranked mons where they have a way to threaten all playstyles but still need some support. M-Manectric has a clear advantage against offense but doesn't actually threaten more balanced and stall builds, it just has the advantage towards them. It would be really hard to see M-Manectric in the same boat as M-Garde and Gengar among others so there's that to.
Generally it is to net 2HKOs on some bulky stuff that are easily capable of tanking Volt-switch otherwise, and recovering afterwards. Notable ones are Mandi/Bro/Rotom
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 284-336 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 362-428 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Damn, Ive been gone for a few days due to a broken laptop charger(stupid dog), so there is a lot I would like to talk about. So instead of wasting my time by agreeing with changes that have been proposed I think I will only discuss the major/controversial changes going around. First up is...
Actually let me preface this, at the start of ORAS I basically had an option; Pick a broken mon and build around it, or build a counter team to the broken threats. Naturally I chose to build a counter team, meaning I have P2 and clefable which together can beat all the amazing new megas and fair well against the rest of the meta. I am just saying this because it definitely affects my view on certain mons because they have been more manageable for me because of how much I prepared for them. I mean honestly with my current team I wouldnt even mind if megamence stayed (but I know it obviously needs to go). anyway moving on.
Mega Sableye-> A+Let me start by saying I think this mon is way better than most of us expected it would be, I mean I personally thought prankster was a must and it losing it would be a detriment. But it turns out to be a godsend for stall, and is able to bring a level of overall control into the game that stall isnt use to having with just one pokemon. Its ability to nerf physical offensive mons, provide amazing hazard control, beat almost all stallbreakers, and be a nice wincon against balance and stall teams seems to be amazing. My personal favorite thing about Mega Sableye is that if it is normal sableye it usually has the choice to either calm mind or willo turn 1, meaning if it is facing a physical attacker its defense gets effectively (more than) doubled, and if its a special attacker it can calm mind meaning its special defense gets a nice 1.5-1.7x boost, allowing it to really handle just about anything without fairy coverage. With all those good things being said, I think this mon should only move up to A+ for the time being. Mainly because it isnt always a huge issue to deal with. There are plenty of offensive teams that mega sableye just simply can not switch into like half the team, and that really puts a limit on stall. I know that sounds like just bad matchup but if we are trying to get him into S rank then I think we should be able to say that it is always beneficial to have mega sableye on your team. But that just doesnt seem to be the case, I mean if it is up against a decent team that has prepared for major threats it could basically be a huge detriment to have mega sableye. For example: If you have mega sableye as your answer to something like garchomp but he has a lum berry now your team is dealing with a +2 threat and you just lost your prankster ability because you wanted the defense boost in addition to the burn. There are quite a few situations that I could mention, granted all of them involve running either lum berry or substitute, but hey if you have to sacrifice one moveslot or item slot in order to beat a pokemon that is supposedly S rank I think its not that bad. And those are just ways to beat Msableye unconventionally, there is still the fact that Mega Sableye is always a free switch into clefable, which can really be a problem since a common (effective) Msabley core is tentacruel + jirachi, and clefable has coverage to hit both of those mons, so you have to constantly be dealing with the predictability of switching them in which could allow double switches into mons that can sub on tentacruel or jirachi, hell the other day I saw this core get completely floored by substitute lando-t which subbed on the already megad sableye and proceeded to destroy that teams life. But yeah I can see sableye moving to S rank and I have no problems with it, I just think that it is an A+ mon but we feel like it should be S because it is bringing things to the table we havent really seen before.
Mega Manectric->A- This was one of my favorite megas design wise but my lord was I underwhelmed by its power, I mean the ONLY role this thing has is to volt switch religiously but most of the time even mons that are hit SE by his volt switch dont mind staying in, especially if they have recovery. Calcs here:
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 240 HP / 244+ SpD Tentacruel: 128-152 (35.4 - 42.1%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 236-282 (59.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 186-218 (43.9 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I mean seriously it cant even OHKO mons with tbolt if it hits them SE, this guy is pretty pathetic and his only benefit is increased speed but all it can do with that speed is be threatening for 1 turn, wheras something like mega sceptile can not only force switches but it can take advantage by setting up a sub and now it can potentially sweep because its would be revenge killer cant take a hit. I guess what I am saying is that Mega Manectric is basically never a win condition unless you reallllllly wear down the other team and at that point, what isnt a win condition? This thing is just too damn weak to ever be considered A+ rank and while it is great and grabbing some momentum, there are other mons that can get it for you without wasting a mega slot which is the main reason I think it should say wherever it is( I have no idea what its currently ranked just better not be A+)
Magnezone->A+ Ok funny story/warning for you guys, ill make this quick, MAKE SURE ITS MAGNET PULL MAGNEZONE. I was getting molly whopped by an analytic choice specs magnezone, so while I thought I was being cool tactically keeping out my ferrothorn, he was over there dropping bombs on all my switches and then ended up "trapping" my ferrothorn anyway only to realize later that he was analytic the whole time, so just be careful with that lol. But seriously I think this thing has shaped the metagame and defintely deserves A+, I mean seriously this is how offensive cores have been for the past few months and even moreso now in ORAS, Amazing offensive mon + magnezone, I also saw someone point out that it allows that amazing offensive mon to run even more optimal moves and I totally agree. And on top of that even against teams without steels to trap I think it is a useful mon in almost every battle even if it just ends up being death fodder, but I find it can usually drop a very hard hitting flash cannon which can still OHKO clefable if its +1, which is honestly reason enough, but it also can run scarf which can handle offensive teams. So yeah depending on the set magnezone can be effective against just about every team and definteily deserves a raise.
Excadrill-You guys seriously want to move this thing down? -.- Just no.
And I think I am going to end with mega aerodactyl cuz I need a break XD.
Mega aerodactyl->A-/A My lord is this thing overhyped, all the things I have heard you guys say he is great is assuming he is either at 75% or 100%, I mean seriously, most of the posts I have seen are like " Look it can take 2 talonflame brave birds" but then I see that it can only do so by living with like exactly 1hp. I mean I guess if you preserve mega aero til late game it is very effective, has great coverage/ability, and is in a godlike speed tier. But I typically dont like raving over late game cleaners (except sharpedo cuz he is awesome) because they seem to only be effective if you had a dominant control over the whole game from the start. I mean to end this, it is still constantly baited by prominent scarfers like keldeo or lando-t, it wants to come in more often than it is able to thanks to the crippling SR weakness, and if it wants to be a stallbreaker set it loses key coverage that makes him damn near useless against most other teams. Having to choose between two sets that sacrifice so much doesnt seem characteristic of an A+ mon I am fine with A I guess but I think it should be A-.
I completely disagree with you here about Mega Manectric and Mega Aero, but since Manectric is already being discussed I will talk about MAero. I'm pretty sure no one here is hyping MAero for its ability to live two CB Brave Birds from Talonflame lol, it quite simply runs through offensive teams incredibly well in the new metagame. Lopunny, Beedril, Gallade, and Sceptile are all new threats people are building around on offense, and MAero takes on all of them not to mention MAero isn't stopped by Greninja which is on every single damn team. Its ability to take on offensive teams is simply amazing in the new metagame.
I completely disagree with you here about Mega Manectric and Mega Aero, but since Manectric is already being discussed I will talk about MAero. I'm pretty sure no one here is hyping MAero for its ability to live two CB Brave Birds from Talonflame lol, it quite simply runs through offensive teams incredibly well in the new metagame. Lopunny, Beedril, Gallade, and Sceptile are all new threats people are building around on offense, and MAero takes on all of them not to mention MAero isn't stopped by Greninja which is on every single damn team. Its ability to take on offensive teams is simply amazing in the new metagame.
Could you elaborate a little more please? Mainly I am interested in how you think Mega-Aero got better. Because from where I sit, he now has a few more megas he can revenge kill, at the cost of having people prepare for faster threats by utilizing priority moves and scarfers. With Mega-Aero hardly resisting any priority and being weak to rocks, I fail to see how it deserves a boost in ranking. He has always been good against offense and that is why he is in A-, moving him up 2 ranks because he is still good against offense doesnt make any sense to me.
MegaScizor I'm neutral on where MManectric goes, but everything you said about MManectric relying on its teammates can also be applied to Scarf Landorus-T, so I don't see how one of these is so much better as a standalone set than the other.
Also you can easily run Protect to mega vs offense more easily, because let's be real here, when do you ever use Tbolt?
I would say the big difference between Lando-T and Mega Manetric is that Lando can switch into most physical attackers of the tier, no matter which attack they use and force them out because he threatens the ohko. Mega Man on the other hand can only switch into predicted resisted attacks from physical attackers and weak attacks from defensive mons and it still takes 40+ % damage from them. Result beeing that Mega Man usually has to rely on something else to die or other volt turners to come in. Lando has no such restrictions due to better bulk and tons of resists/immunities. The lack of power is the other big issue, i mean that Slowbro calc is kinda representive for Mega Mans problem, a special attacker that cant even ohko a physical wall with its strongest super effective stab move, so its not even good at forcing things out and risks losing momentum instead of gaining it. So yeah, if you look at Mega Man independently and if you compare it to Lando-T there is no way he should be A+, A at most id even say A-.
I would say the big difference between Lando-T and Mega Manetric is that Lando can switch into most physical attackers of the tier, no matter which attack they use and force them out because he threatens the ohko. Mega Man on the other hand can only switch into predicted resisted attacks from physical attackers and weak attacks from defensive mons and it still takes 40+ % damage from them. Result beeing that Mega Man usually has to rely on something else to die or other volt turners to come in. Lando has no such restrictions due to better bulk and tons of resists/immunities. The lack of power is the other big issue, i mean that Slowbro calc is kinda representive for Mega Mans problem, a special attacker that cant even ohko a physical wall with its strongest super effective stab move, so its not even good at forcing things out and risks losing momentum instead of gaining it. So yeah, if you look at Mega Man independently and if you compare it to Lando-T there is no way he should be A+, A at most id even say A-.
Disagree, Manectric is only slightly less bulky than an uninvested lando-t not that either should be trying to take hits, just force stuff out with intimidate. Mega Manectric also threatens a larger portion of the tier with its coverage and not being choiced locked eases prediction a lot and makes you less vulnerable to set up.
Sorry but what's so great about Mega Sableye that you people want it to rise all the way to S rank? Have you considered that it can't switch on anything? Especially on a stall team? I do agree it should move up to A rank, due to its ability to check physical attackers rather well, easily set up and attempt to sweep unprepared teams if it gains enough momentum and IF it predicts correctly, especially against powerful physical attackers. Guess what? Don't let it do what it wants to do. Not that hard, considering there are many Pokemon which can easily check it, such as Talonflame, Mega Gyara (especially with Sub), special attacking Fairy-types (Sylveon, Mega Gardy/Diancie, Togekiss, Clefable), Victini (CB V-create OHKOes with a bit of prior damage), Zard X, etc. If you say "oh, but you have teammates", then is Mega Sableye a S-rank deserving 'mon? Probably not. Especially on stall teams (although I do admit almost every stall team should use Mega Sableye...)
Mega Sableye's problem is the following: it can't do both jobs at the same time. Otherwise it'd easily deserve S+ rank. Between its opportunity cost, a huge toss-up between Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse, coinflips, horrible bulk prior to going mega and lack of Leftovers recovery, Mega Sableye has imo enough flaws by itself to not be S. Once it mega evolves, it becomes depressingly slow and becomes complete set up fodder for Calm Minding fairies, as well as Zard X and SD Talonflame, especially if SR is not up.
I'm sorry, what is this about not being able to switch in? If you mean pre-mega form, this is one of the easiest megas to lead with and megavolve. Prankster allows you to get off the First Wisp or Calm Mind while Magic Bounce will reflect that Taunt or Rocks back in the opponent's face. Otherwise you way take some damage. This is effective against virtually everything but SD Lum Garchomp, but even then if you predict that you can stave off Megavolving until turn 2 to get a second Prankster Wisp in if the berry activates. Afterwards it still has three immunities and Magic Bounce giving it some of the best switch in opportunities available. But yes, it will have difficulty swithcing in on something putting a Sub up, but the offensive types to use this move (Sceptile, Salamence, Gyarados, etc) Sableye has no business switching in on in the first place. Otherwise if it's Stall, it's basically a non issue.
I would say the big difference between Lando-T and Mega Manetric is that Lando can switch into most physical attackers of the tier, no matter which attack they use and force them out because he threatens the ohko. Mega Man on the other hand can only switch into predicted resisted attacks from physical attackers and weak attacks from defensive mons and it still takes 40+ % damage from them. Result beeing that Mega Man usually has to rely on something else to die or other volt turners to come in. Lando has no such restrictions due to better bulk and tons of resists/immunities. The lack of power is the other big issue, i mean that Slowbro calc is kinda representive for Mega Mans problem, a special attacker that cant even ohko a physical wall with its strongest super effective stab move, so its not even good at forcing things out and risks losing momentum instead of gaining it. So yeah, if you look at Mega Man independently and if you compare it to Lando-T there is no way he should be A+, A at most id even say A-.
LandT and MMan are complements. Less so substitutes. In any case, MMan should be in A for the sole fact that he is a mega and requires major opportunity cost. Granted most megas are in this "opportunity cost" region, MMan is more so because it's role is mainly as a special pivot with benefits. Because of this power creep that oRaS brought about us, you see mons that used to require no to low cost in running such as Azumarill dropping to A+. I am not by any means denying MMan of it's usefulness, in fact it has improved with oRaS due to it's stellar speed and ability to grab fast pivots against forced switches. As much as it supports a lot of volt turn teams and the like, it requires decent amount of support and the only main support it can provide in return is revenge killing, momentum grabs and soft phazing in the form of Intimidate. If it wasn't a mega with such restrictive uses, I'd argue for a higher rank. Otherwise, as of now, with all this "new toy syndrome" going around, it is hard to see him anywhere above A. Tl;dr - MMan should stay in A
Could you elaborate a little more please? Mainly I am interested in how you think Mega-Aero got better. Because from where I sit, he now has a few more megas he can revenge kill, at the cost of having people prepare for faster threats by utilizing priority moves and scarfers. With Mega-Aero hardly resisting any priority and being weak to rocks, I fail to see how it deserves a boost in ranking. He has always been good against offense and that is why he is in A-, moving him up 2 ranks because he is still good against offense doesnt make any sense to me.
It resists flying priority ffs. It's only weak to Ice priority, only seen on Weavile and Mamoswine iirc.
ANOTHER PERSON WHO IS COMPLETELY BRUSHING OFF THE IMPORTANCE OF CHECKING THINGS LIKE MEGA LOPUNNY, MEGA SCEPTILE, GRENINJA, MEGE BEEDRILL, EXT. Sorry for all of that bold, but people really, REALLY need to learn how important something like this is, seeing as these lot can be huge threats to offensive teams, particularly the first three, and are some of the reasons why HO isn't shaping out to be as good as before in ORAS if you forget about MMence who will be banned. Mega Aero could very well be offence's archangel this gen as a result. I think something like A Rank is ok for now, but we should consider A+ in the future if offence really does decline
It resists flying priority ffs. It's only weak to Ice priority, only seen on Weavile and Mamoswine iirc.
ANOTHER PERSON WHO IS COMPLETELY BRUSHING OFF THE IMPORTANCE OF CHECKING THINGS LIKE MEGA LOPUNNY, MEGA SCEPTILE, GRENINJA, MEGE BEEDRILL, EXT. Sorry for all of that bold, but people really, REALLY need to learn how important something like this is, seeing as these lot can be huge threats to offensive teams, particularly the first three, and are some of the reasons why HO isn't shaping out to be as good as before in ORAS if you forget about MMence who will be banned. Mega Aero could very well be offence's archangel this gen as a result. I think something like A Rank is ok for now, but we should consider A+ in the future if offence really does decline
you're acting like only Aerodactyl can do this because he outspeeds them, but every good offensive team is already prepared for these threats by having a scarfer and having priority
also, considering that Aerodactyl is now forced to run Jolly instead of Adamant, it's even weaker in ORAS than it was in XY. and the fact that Weavile, Mamoswine, scarf Keldeo, and even stuff like nonMega Scizor becoming more common makes it even harder for Aerodactyl to do its job
it's not that great. I've never had a problem with it and I run offensive teams. it's nowhere near A+, should just stay at A-
It resists flying priority ffs. It's only weak to Ice priority, only seen on Weavile and Mamoswine iirc.
ANOTHER PERSON WHO IS COMPLETELY BRUSHING OFF THE IMPORTANCE OF CHECKING THINGS LIKE MEGA LOPUNNY, MEGA SCEPTILE, GRENINJA, MEGE BEEDRILL, EXT. Sorry for all of that bold, but people really, REALLY need to learn how important something like this is, seeing as these lot can be huge threats to offensive teams, particularly the first three, and are some of the reasons why HO isn't shaping out to be as good as before in ORAS if you forget about MMence who will be banned. Mega Aero could very well be offence's archangel this gen as a result. I think something like A Rank is ok for now, but we should consider A+ in the future if offence really does decline
It resists flying priority ffs. It's only weak to Ice priority, only seen on Weavile and Mamoswine iirc.
ANOTHER PERSON WHO IS COMPLETELY BRUSHING OFF THE IMPORTANCE OF CHECKING THINGS LIKE MEGA LOPUNNY, MEGA SCEPTILE, GRENINJA, MEGE BEEDRILL, EXT. Sorry for all of that bold, but people really, REALLY need to learn how important something like this is, seeing as these lot can be huge threats to offensive teams, particularly the first three, and are some of the reasons why HO isn't shaping out to be as good as before in ORAS if you forget about MMence who will be banned. Mega Aero could very well be offence's archangel this gen as a result. I think something like A Rank is ok for now, but we should consider A+ in the future if offence really does decline
