Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[alexwolf]

alexwolf can you please comment on how heavily we should be weighing opportunity cost? Ive said before I think us weighing it too heavily in our rankings, skews them, but I would just like to hear what you or the council have to say so we can all just follow suit. Otherwise ranking these megas is just impossible.

Here is a post i made to the convo between the ranking team:

One factor we should take into account very seriously is the fact that competition between MEvos is fiercer now. Before ORAS, we had 15 MEvos in S, A, and B ranks, while now we have 14 more, adding up to a total of 29 MEvos. That's 29 Pokemon competing for the same teamslot to an extend, and while many of those MEvos are not really similar, even small similarities bring comparisons to your mind when teambuilding, and prompt you to think if the MEvo you are using is the right choice.

So, what i am trying to say is that because the viability ranking thread is meant to show both how easy a Pokemon is to fit on a team teambuilding-wise and how good it is while battling, i think we should be more strict than we were when it comes to ranking MEvos.

For example, Mega Charizard X in no way should go in S rank as things are right now, even if he is as viable as he was in XY, because now he faces much more competition with Mega Altaria in the role of a DDer, and more MEvos in general.

So, i think that we should be more strict about ranking MEvos and have in our mind that some MEvos might deserve to be in a higher rank than they are, performance-wise, but teambuilding restrictions play a big factor as well, and when taking in mind those limitations the ranking of each MEvo will make much more sense.

 

[Karxrida]

alexwolf can you please comment on how heavily we should be weighing opportunity cost? Ive said before I think us weighing it too heavily in our rankings, skews them, but I would just like to hear what you or the council have to say so we can all just follow suit. Otherwise ranking these megas is just impossible.

Opportunity cost should definitely be taken into account if a Mega receives competition from a non-Mega in a similar role. For example, Mega Latios competes heavily with normal Latios as an Offensive Defogger/Mixed Attacker and thus should be ranked much lower due to requiring a Mega slot.

 

[theV8man]

Here's What I Think About S/A+

S

Charizard (Mega-X) - Char X is fine in S for now. There are some new threats this generation like Mega Slowbro and Altaria, but it's still more or less as viable as last gen.

Greninja - Extremely dangerous speedy threat that can take out nearly anything with the right coverage, S

Keldeo - Like Char X, it's gotten some more viable checks/counters, but it's still very dangerous and decreased viability of Azumarill helps it.

Latios - Amazing Pokemon right now, like Greninja it functions great in the meta, S. The rise of Jirachi is annoying, though.

A+ Rank

Azumarill - Fine in A+

Bisharp - This thing sweeps teams for days at 2+, especially if there's no fighting types, A+ material

Charizard (Mega-Y) - 100 speed without boosting isn't too great now as teams are faster and stronger in general, I think it should drop to A tbh, but it does counter Mega Sableye, which is nice.

Clefable - Right now it's greatest value is in countering certain threats like Sableye, still A+ material

Gallade (Mega) - Great sweeper that can stay in A+

Garchomp - This guy should drop imo. Outclassed as both a scarfer and a lead. A is probably fine.

Gardevoir (Mega) - Very good right now like its counterpart, pretty much destroys current stall builds. A+

Gengar - Every damn team hates this thing no matter what. A+

Heatran - Extremely useful, sets rocks consistently and switches into all kinds of stuff, A+

Landorus-T - Should stay where it is.

Landorus - Should stay where it is.

Latias - This thing could drop to A+ because of the rise in viability of the Lati Megas, but Healing Wish is still super useful. A+ is probably fine.

Metagross (Mega) - Kinda conflicted about this guy. It's Rock Polish set is pretty easy to check with bulky mons, but I haven't gone against an all-out attacker yet, which might warrant it a rise to S.

Mew - Should definitely drop to A. Not nearly as annoying to offense/stall as last gen

Pinsir (Mega) - I've been using this thing, and damn. It's excellent, it doesn't give a crap about faster megas because many of them fall to Quick Attack. With Magnezone, it breaks walls and cleans up, totally deserves A+. It's so good that I could consider supporting it to go to S rank.

Scizor (Mega) - Offensive SD Scizor is great right now, A+.

Talonflame - A+ lol

Thundurus - Its Thunder Wave is highly appreciated right now. It's excellent, and I could consider supporting this thing for S.

Venusaur (Mega) - Its viability is about the same as last gen I think. That being said, I'm not really suer if it should stay in A+.

TL;DR - Most of the stuff currently in S/A+ is fine where it is, but there are some things that should drop for sure.

 

[D-Ssain]

On mobile but...
I disagree with Char X in S. Sure it's still a huge threat, but the bulky Will-O-Wisp set is outclassed by Sableye in terms of bulk. Sure it has more offensive presence, but Sableye has Calm Mind and arguably a better ability and a much better typing.

Char X also faces competition with M Altaria as a DDer. M Altaria is much bulkier on the special side, has a much better typing both offensively and defensively, and has a way to deal with status. Charizard X also hates switching in and out of Stealth Rocks. Altaria also doesn't fear Ferro's recoil moves since it can go mixed with Fire Blast. Char X also has to rely on recoil moves or Outrage to do the most damage. (I guess D-Claw works, but Outrage hits like a truck.)
Gyarados also received Crunch this generation and that's all I have to say about that.

Tl;dr: Char X is still a decent Mega, but it faces a lot of competition for a Mega Slot and should stay in A+.

The thing with Charizard X is that it does so much that your opponent has to keep guessing. The three sets that Charizard can run basically changes its counters. A three attack+roost set is hard checked by Azumarill and bulky Landorus, but if Charizard runs Wisp then Azumarill and Landorus can't do much to deter Charizard. Similarly while a Wisp set can be walled by Heatran, Heatran does not appreciate the Earthquake sets. I feel that Mega Altaria is a one trick pony and thus much easier to contain. Also your point about recoil from Ferrothorn is moot since Altaria then has to give up recovery or sub or heal bell, all necessary moves for sweeping, to run Fire Blast. Another major thing that helps Charizard X outclass other DDers is that he can't be burned, which is invaluable.

About Mega Sableye, yeah it has Calm Mind but Charizard X has Swords Dance, Dragon Dance and Tailwind. Charizard just provides so much to a team that you can fit it into multiple roles. Charizard X was completely outclassed by M Salamence but with its ban Charizard is an S Rank mon.

 

[FieryTyrant]

On mobile but...
I disagree with Char X in S. Sure it's still a huge threat, but the bulky Will-O-Wisp set is outclassed by Sableye in terms of bulk. Sure it has more offensive presence, but Sableye has Calm Mind and arguably a better ability and a much better typing.

Char X also faces competition with M Altaria as a DDer. M Altaria is much bulkier on the special side, has a much better typing both offensively and defensively, and has a way to deal with status. Charizard X also hates switching in and out of Stealth Rocks. Altaria also doesn't fear Ferro's recoil moves since it can go mixed with Fire Blast. Char X also has to rely on recoil moves or Outrage to do the most damage. (I guess D-Claw works, but Outrage hits like a truck.)
Gyarados also received Crunch this generation and that's all I have to say about that.

Tl;dr: Char X is still a decent Mega, but it faces a lot of competition for a Mega Slot and should stay in A+.

I wouldn't drop it just like that. It is the best offensive Dragon Dancer in the meta and the Tailwind set is a bit more viable (I have tested this myself) in ORAS due to the speed creep. We cannot just drop a Pokemon because of another Pokemon in comparison. Look at the Pokemon itself; Mega Charizard X is a deathly Dragon Dancer. The WoW set is indeed outclassed, but at the same time CharX can set up Mega Sableye. As a Mega, CharX is versatile, powerful, and fantastic offensively. Lots of people forget that CharX is actually MORE bulky on the defensive side, Megataria is only bulkier on the special side. I will admit that Megataria has better defensive typing, but as an offensive type Dragon/Fairy is kind of redundant. Fire/Dragon is insanely good offensively and that 130 is a lot more menacing with Tough Claws. I'm not saying it should stay S or move to A+. But it's best to leave it there for now because people seem to be split and we need to see how it performs in this new meta when things are all figured out. You cannot drop a mega for losing a single function when every other function still works just fine. Same applies to Mega Pinsir, a few new walls do not amount to a drop. It still performs wonderfully and is extremely good at what it does. Any good player doesn't keep a Pokemon on its wall anyway, you have a teamate do that for you.

TL;DR: Stop suggesting drops when your only argument is a few walls and "pokemon X does this better lol drop it"
Look at the Pokemon themselves and ask yourself if they still do their job. An S rank Pokemon can be the LEAST versatile Pokemon in the world and still be S rank because it performs its ONE task wonderfully.

Edit: Megataria isn't actually competing with CharX, at least not in the way you guys make it out. It depends on if you'd rather a defensive or offensive DD Pokemon. If you want offensive? CharX. Defensive? Megataria.
It is that simple, they play similar, but at the same time much different roles.

I honestly think CharX is a better offensive DDer than Megataria is a defensive DDer. And for that CharX should stay S rank, for now at least.

Erm, yes it is. They both face competition as Dragon Dancers that take a Mega Slot, that is competition.



Well, this isn't exactly true:

Hide

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 173-204 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 201-237 (47.5 - 56%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 132-156 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 123-144 (40.8 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 90-106 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 38.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 42% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 162-192 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Probably missed an EV spread somewhere, but I think you get the point. Just keep in mind this is all just S - A+ - A - A-. Furthermore, it's not gonna always run 252+, but this is just showing the highest power possible. As you can see, there are a fair amount of ways to check Mega Charizard X. Also, bulky Will-O-Wisp sets are not gonna 2HKO that much. However, Mega Altaria is better than you're giving it credit for. Personally, I prefer spamming Return > Flare Blitz, as it is arguably better because it doesn't have a drawback and gets better coverage. From S - A+ - A - A-, 10 Pokemon resist Fairy-type moves, while 24 Pokemon resist Flare Blitz. As a whole, four types resist Fire and three resist Fairy; thus, I can conclude that Return is, in practice, the more spammable move. Hitting hard is cool yeah, but Flare Blitz's recoil is really not as useful when in terms of raw attacking.




Altaria can learn Earthquake and can even perform special sets, thus separating it once again.



Sure, it's Speed isn't as good, but Mega Altaria runs a bulky DD set as well, with Roost and Heal Bell, giving it better sustainability and self sufficiency. Running just Return isn't even that bad; pardon me for sounding really standard, but Magnezone actually pairs well with it because it can beat Steel-types and allow Mega Altaria to sweep. Getting to +2 isn't really that hard from experiences with it.



Erm, I'm pretty sure your team is very poorly constructed if Charizard sweeps turn one ._. The Tailwind / SD set isn't even that new, I don't get why people are bringing it up now. It's really not that changed n_n. Plus, you're acting like Charizard is always going to have the capacity to setup and sweep, offensive pressure can be placed. Quagsire, while not that common, is an example of defensive Pokemon that don't care about Charizard X. Why is waiting a bit longer to sweep even a bad thing? It's really not, it's just easier later in the match. Mega Charizard X is threatening, but it's not S Rank worthy to me.

tl;dr: Mega Charizard X to stay in A+, Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X or more similar than people give credit for.

That isn't true. They are both competing to be DDers, sure, but they do it in COMPLETELY different ways. Oh, and as was stated before, if you run earthquake, you lack many other moves. CharX doesn't have this problem as its STABs cover the majority of the OU meta. People really need to quit comparing the two and acting as if they're the most similar Pokemon there is. They compete for the same slot and perform the same DD sweep. That's where it ends. EVERYTHING else about them is different, including the way they do it. Dragon/Fairy is not the best offensive typing and DD is definitely aimed towards offensive Pokemon. Fire/Dragon has much a much better flow (and isn't hard stopped by steel types js.) Dragon/Fairy is better defensively, but why does that actually matter when DD is aimed to help a Pokemon sweep and CharX hits so much harder and is much faster as well.
I personally think that CharX is a better offensive DDer than Altaria is a defensive DDer.
TL;DR: Megataria is defensive and CharX is offensive. They are not 100% similar and actually perform very differently. CharX should stay S because although it isn't as bulky and defensively Fire/Dragon isn't quite as good as Dragon/Fairy, it is so much better offensively in stats, speed, and STABs. Once the walls are gone CharX will bend the other Pokemon to its knees.

Your stats are cheap, I can give you a list of Altaria's walls and the calculations on them. Why would CharX stay in on any of those, and why wouldn't he just Dragon Claw/Outrage Mega Latias?

Edit: The Tailwind/SD set is being brought up because with the Speed Creep it IS more viable than it was in XY.

 

[skies]

Altaria is no competition for Char X.

Erm, yes it is. They both face competition as Dragon Dancers that take a Mega Slot, that is competition.

It hits nowhere near as hard. You need DD to do damage, while Zard just goes for the Flare Blitz and 2HKOs most switch ins.

Well, this isn't exactly true:

Hide

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 173-204 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 201-237 (47.5 - 56%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 132-156 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 123-144 (40.8 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 90-106 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 38.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 42% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 162-192 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Probably missed an EV spread somewhere, but I think you get the point. Just keep in mind this is all just S - A+ - A - A-. Furthermore, it's not gonna always run 252+, but this is just showing the highest power possible. As you can see, there are a fair amount of ways to check Mega Charizard X. Also, bulky Will-O-Wisp sets are not gonna 2HKO that much. However, Mega Altaria is better than you're giving it credit for. Personally, I prefer spamming Return > Flare Blitz, as it is arguably better because it doesn't have a drawback and gets better coverage. From S - A+ - A - A-, 10 Pokemon resist Fairy-type moves, while 24 Pokemon resist Flare Blitz. As a whole, four types resist Fire and three resist Fairy; thus, I can conclude that Return is, in practice, the more spammable move. Hitting hard is cool yeah, but Flare Blitz's recoil is really not as useful when in terms of raw attacking.

Altaria is much more easily walled since steels are everywhere.

Altaria can learn Earthquake and can even perform special sets, thus separating it once again.

It needs to boost up to 2 DDs to outspeed common scarfers and the super fast megas, whereas Zard X only needs 1 by running Jolly. It needs to run Heal Bell or Sub if it wants to avoid being burned, which means it's running even less coverage.

Sure, it's Speed isn't as good, but Mega Altaria runs a bulky DD set as well, with Roost and Heal Bell, giving it better sustainability and self sufficiency. Running just Return isn't even that bad; pardon me for sounding really standard, but Magnezone actually pairs well with it because it can beat Steel-types and allow Mega Altaria to sweep. Getting to +2 isn't really that hard from experiences with it.

The Zard SD/Tailwind set destroys every stall that doesn't run Heatran and takes down half of a HO team easily. Altaria needs to wait til mid-late game to sweep a team, while you can literally lead with Zard and still wreck teams.

Erm, I'm pretty sure your team is very poorly constructed if Charizard sweeps turn one ._. The Tailwind / SD set isn't even that new, I don't get why people are bringing it up now. It's really not that changed n_n. Plus, you're acting like Charizard is always going to have the capacity to setup and sweep, offensive pressure can be placed. Quagsire, while not that common, is an example of defensive Pokemon that don't care about Charizard X. Why is waiting a bit longer to sweep even a bad thing? It's really not, it's just easier later in the match. Mega Charizard X is threatening, but it's not S Rank worthy to me.

tl;dr: Mega Charizard X to stay in A+, Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X or more similar than people give credit for.

 

[AM]

As far as the whole Char-X / M-Altaria debate goes people keep noting their similarities of being dragon dancers as justification they both should fall in the same rank when that's not exactly the case.

Let's be real here, people keep bringing up diversity and try to act like sets such as Will-O-Wisp Zard is actually fantastic anymore. Your conventional stall teams doesn't have a single care for this set and offensive is packing so many heavy hitters that it's a liability to even run this set at times. The only time this really puts in any sort of work is against Balanced builds and even then it's not that great because an aspect of both archetypes I mentioned will be implemented and thus makes the set still inconsistent. SD / Tailwind isn't exactly a new thing so idk why people arguing for it's placement on S and using this as some sort of merit. I get what it does but at the same time you could run Dragon Dance and accomplish similar traits if it's on the idea of Char-X being self sufficient. Then you have your Roost / 3 attacks set which is great and all but I think most of us can agree this isn't why it was S rank in the first place. So as far as Charizard-X goes let's not delude ourselves that it provides some sort of "amazing" versatility cause it really doesn't in this metagame. If you've prepared for the offensive sets that's really all you need to handle Zard-X regardless of what particular set you're facing that day.

What M-Altaria has is that it can run a bit of support moves along with dragon dance. It has a unique typing and unique =/= better. The only difference between how M-Altaria and M-Char-X works in viability in terms of a typing standpoint is that they have different checks and counters and are paired better or less efficiently among certain Pokemon. Neither of these are exactly one trick ponies as someone put it but it doesn't change the fact that if you run one set, you have to take into account the checks and counters you'll be troubled by. Neither of these actually have any merits over one another in terms of how viable they are. For the most part each have their own fair share of issues where Char-X I feel has trouble keeping up with various trends in the meta-game just enough so that it can't comfortably sit at S rank yet definitely a solid A+ because of the sheer power it can bring into the table similar to all the A+ ranked mons with just some basic support. M-Altaria has a lot of diversity going for it however it's in the same boat as your basic A+ ranked mon. They can provide support from a team perspective and the perspective of being self sufficient but still need general support to accomplish what is necessary based on its set. Sort of felt like a ramble but it's getting redundant to compare and contrast the two based on Dragon Dance sets alone when it's blatantly obvious they have entirely different aspects that should be taken into account. I'll probably post later on what I feel is S and A+ later but that's my stance on both of those and they should both sit at A+ until an actual relevant metagame shift happens.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

S

- Should stay S, as it is still the best offensive DDer in the tier thanks to its amazing 2 move coverage (megaAlt is a defensive/bulky DDer), which opens up the way for many simular yet very dangerous sets like SD+Tailwind, Roost+3atk, DD with roost and 3atk+DD. I would mention the Bulky wisp set it got known for last get had it not been for the oppertunity cost of using ZardX > MSableye/MegaSaur on stall teams.

- I think it has been pretty clear that Gren is almost impossible to wall and should therefor keep its place at S-rank for now, and I see no reason in dropping it. It destroys Many offensive teams and often forces Stall too use gimmicks to beat it.

- Got a lot of new Counters this gen, and while it is still amazing the 108 speedtier is just not as good with the new creep. The lack of good coverage is everpresence. While Azus lack of usage helps it I think it should for now drop too A+.

- One of the best scarfers and the best offensive defogger in the tier. has limited switchins and does its job pretty good, but is complete setup fodder for Bisharp if you Draco without thinking. Also hardwalled by MegaGross. I think it is kinda borderline A+ but I would not mind if it stays in S.

A+ Rank

- Still a good mon and walls the crap out of Keldeo. fine at A+

- Amazing in this meta and keeps hazards up for offensive teams, at +2 almost nothing can switchin, especially mid/late game. Keep at A+ (if MLopunny and Keldeo did not exist I would say S easily)

- it is not as speedy and powerful anymore, It can handle a few new megas but it should drop to A IMO

- Best fairy in the meta, checks a fuckton of stuff and has decent offensive presence. While it does no longer counter Gren I still think it warrants A+

- Massive atk, good speed and good coverage. This thing is a pain for Stall and Balance alike. It has some good checks in TalonBurd and Sableye, but should stay A+

- Not that good anymore. Scarf is not as usable and 102 speed is not amazing either. SR lead is pretty good but faces heavy competiton from terrakion which from my experience does the job better. Drop to A or mabye even A-.

- Just like its brother in crime it beats the living hell out of stall. keep at A+.

- No team can deal with this guy because of its veratility. easy A+.

- Great stallmon that check SD+Tailwind ZardX, Latios and talonflame, along with a bunch of other things. It is also good at Balance and has that scarf set. A+

- has a great Physically defensive set, an offensive Earth Plate one and the infamous Scarf set. Fits into every play style and checks so many top threaths it not even funny. easy A+ cant be S because its not blue

- Insanly hard to switchin on, almost singlehandly destroys stall lacking a chansey or Spdef Skarm. Stay A+

- No opinion

- Should move to S, AgilityGross deals with HO easily if it has hazard support (not being revenged by BandBurd is big), all out attacker can beat almost every Stallmon 1v1, and mix even beats M-Slowbro. It also hardwalls Lati@s and set up on thim is needed.

- Not that good anymore, it does the same as before just with less sucess. Drop to A-

- Now that MMence is gone (thank god) Pinsir is back as the best wallbreaking birdspammer. it has a little problem with running EQ or CC again because of MegaGross, but its minor after a SD ( +2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 209-246 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) stay A+

- No opinon

- Got more things to check. A+

- Prankster T-wave is very good right now, and checking Flyingspam is massive. Will settle for both A+ and S

- Did not get worse, but it now has to compete with M-Sableye on Stall teams. Could drop to A but not lower.

TL;DR: MegaGross - S, Mew - A-, GARchomp - A/A-, MegaSaur - A+/A, ZardY - A, Keldeo - A+, Thund - A+/S, Latios A+/S

(stole theV8man's setup)

EDIT: some grammar/Typo issues :/

EDIT2: somewhat superficial Just going to tell -Clone- that Zard is my 2nd least favorite pokemon, But I value him as an S-rank because of the offensive pressure it puts on both Stall, Balance and Offense.

 

[heritage]

@ above since I'm too lazy to quote all of you

While I disagree with Char X being S, I'm not going to argue it. The reason I think M-Altaria is better is that it has more viable sets to run. M-Altaria has supportive sets, DD sets and Special attacking sets. Your opponent never knows what they're going to be up against when they see an Altaria in the team preview. Char X has two viable sets; offensive DDer and Bulky Will-O-Wisp. (Personally I think the Tailwind + SD is a bit of a gimmick and can be stalled out) Both of which can be walled accordingly. They can both be forced out by Pokemon and some moves and take a crap ton of damage from SR once they come back in
I'm certainly not going to argue with Char X in S. It's not bad, but it's outlived its stay.

Also, I made a mistake when I said that Altaria has a better offensive typing. It has a better defensive typing but the offensive side of it has a bit of redundant coverage.

Summary: Leave Char X in S if you want lol it's not my problem

 

[AM]

@ above since I'm too lazy to quote all of you

While I disagree with Char X being S, I'm not going to argue it. The reason I think M-Altaria is better is that it has more viable sets to run. M-Altaria has supportive sets, DD sets and Special attacking sets. Your opponent never knows what they're going to be up against when they see an Altaria in the team preview. Char X has two viable sets; offensive DDer and Bulky Will-O-Wisp. (Personally I think the Tailwind + SD is a bit of a gimmick and can be stalled out) Both of which can be walled accordingly. They can both be forced out by Pokemon and some moves and take a crap ton of damage from SR once they come back in
I'm certainly not going to argue with Char X in S. It's not bad, but it's outlived its stay.

Also, I made a mistake when I said that Altaria has a better offensive typing. It has a better defensive typing but the offensive side of it has a bit of redundant coverage.

Summary: Leave Char X in S if you want lol it's not my problem

Your opponent never knows what they're going to be up against when they see an Altaria in the team preview.

This is more or less false if we're considering and should be considering that it's based on a solid team build. If the team needs a set up sweeper or win condition, or seems like it gets walled by any relevant special walls with few answers for them, it's pretty safe to assume that it's going to be the DDance set. If the team is more in need of clerical support and has its physical offensive presence covered, more than likely it's not going to be Dragon Dance. Obviously there's still the surprise factor to some degree but it's not exactly that difficult to pinpoint the general set used by something with versatility in its movepool based on teammates alone. Sometimes it's much more difficult with something like Talonflame for example but even then it's pretty easy to know the basics from the start.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

unfixable saying fairy is more spammable than fire is irrelevant imo, what you should be comparing is what is more spammable fairy/dragon? or fire/dragon? The advantage is clearly with charx. I see your point saying that if you wanted to just spam a move return might be better, but steels are everywhere and can eatup returns very easily. basically I am saying that altaria switchins take the hit better than charx's switchins. Like slowbro takes like 40% from dclaw but heatran takes like 5% from return, hopefully that makes sense, ill elaborate more if you would like.


But the main argument that was driving me bonkers when I was reading this on my phone was that "altaria has more sets so you never know what it could be". WHAT?? Altaria is a pretty predictable pokemon and is very easy to judge its set based on the team. If it is paired with a magnezone it is probably monoattacking dd, if the team looks weak to heatran or ferro, guess what? altaria has the coverage move to hit them, so play accordingly. While on the other hand you only see charizard in the team preview, you literally have no idea if its even a charx or chary, and from there each of the two megas have completely different sets!(slight exaggeration warning) Ill admit its also possible to figure out what charizard it is from team preview but it is substantially harder and even once they mega evolve you still dont know the full set, so I would definitely give the unpredictability advantage to charizard over altaria.

 

[Srn]

unfixable saying fairy is more spammable than fire is irrelevant imo, what you should be comparing is what is more spammable fairy/dragon? or fire/dragon? The advantage is clearly with charx. I see your point saying that if you wanted to just spam a move return might be better, but steels are everywhere and can eatup returns very easily. basically I am saying that altaria switchins take the hit better than charx's switchins. Like slowbro takes like 40% from dclaw but heatran takes like 5% from return, hopefully that makes sense, ill elaborate more if you would like.


But the main argument that was driving me bonkers when I was reading this on my phone was that "altaria has more sets so you never know what it could be". WHAT?? Altaria is a pretty predictable pokemon and is very easy to judge its set based on the team. If it is paired with a magnezone it is probably monoattacking dd, if the team looks weak to heatran or ferro, guess what? altaria has the coverage move to hit them, so play accordingly. While on the other hand you only see charizard in the team preview, you literally have no idea if its even a charx or chary, and from there each of the two megas have completely different sets!(slight exaggeration warning) Ill admit its also possible to figure out what charizard it is from team preview but it is substantially harder and even once they mega evolve you still dont know the full set, so I would definitely give the unpredictability advantage to charizard over altaria.

I don't like the argument you're offering against altaria's versatility, and pretty much versatility in general. There are several sets that could fit into your parameters; for example: even if the opponent carries a zone, it could very well just be there to remove steels to spam hyper voice easier, or the DD set could just carry eq to hit tran which zone can't remove. Its not easy to guess what a team is weak to because you don't know their sets, my team could be pretty weak to rotom-w but I could just be hiding a crispy power herb solarbeam tran in the back just waiting to destroy it. The opponent might just be a good player and use a mon to lure or pressure the counter (skarm lets say) with a set that is useful for other things too (CB tar can 2hko with stone edge AND beat fire thingies AND lure+hit steels with superpower :O) instead of potentially wasting a moveslot on zone. This way, not only do you more efficiently destroy your wincon's counters (in my experience anyways), you can cloud the set of your mon and be more effective and dangerous overall. Could you tell that altaria is mono attacking DD and that the Tar was CB at first glance? Doubtful. Thus, the simple way of predicting a set based on the team isn't so easy and could even be a trap if you're facing a well built team.
Not to mention its not that hard to guess char-y or char-x; if the opponent lacks a method of trapping lati@s (tyranitar, rotom-w+bisharp) its most likely a char-x, and this holds true for a LOT of teams. Can you gaurantee that altaria will be the exact same set just because you see a magnezone on the same team? not really. Besides char-y is pretty one-dimensional, its only char-x that you have to kinda scout (which still isn't that hard; bulky/semi-stall teams use bulky wisp and offensive teams use DD)

And while i'm here lemme just reiterate why Char-x is A+ worthy: Bulky wisp sucks now b/c mega sableye is far more useful, and it got more checks in mega diancie, mega slowbro, and mega altaria. The Offensive DD sets are of course still dangerous, which is why it should be A+, but not only did it (char-x as a whole) get less versatile, its easier to check now. It should drop.

 

[Clone]

unfixable saying fairy is more spammable than fire is irrelevant imo, what you should be comparing is what is more spammable fairy/dragon? or fire/dragon? The advantage is clearly with charx. I see your point saying that if you wanted to just spam a move return might be better, but steels are everywhere and can eatup returns very easily. basically I am saying that altaria switchins take the hit better than charx's switchins. Like slowbro takes like 40% from dclaw but heatran takes like 5% from return, hopefully that makes sense, ill elaborate more if you would like.


But the main argument that was driving me bonkers when I was reading this on my phone was that "altaria has more sets so you never know what it could be". WHAT?? Altaria is a pretty predictable pokemon and is very easy to judge its set based on the team. If it is paired with a magnezone it is probably monoattacking dd, if the team looks weak to heatran or ferro, guess what? altaria has the coverage move to hit them, so play accordingly. While on the other hand you only see charizard in the team preview, you literally have no idea if its even a charx or chary, and from there each of the two megas have completely different sets!(slight exaggeration warning) Ill admit its also possible to figure out what charizard it is from team preview but it is substantially harder and even once they mega evolve you still dont know the full set, so I would definitely give the unpredictability advantage to charizard over altaria.

Re: Charizard

Determining X or Y is pretty easy based on the team structure, as Y literally has a cookie cutter build that only he performs on, and doesn't deviate from it much anyways. X fits on everything else. I don't see how that's any harder than figuring out what set Altaria is running.

As for Zard Xs set in particular, 9/10 times it'll be one of the offensive variants, and from there you can play accordingly, seeing as how SD and DD have similar checks.

That aside tho Zard definitely needs to move down. Wisp is what made him S in the first place, and him not being able to effectively run wisp anymore takes away like a third of his viability since that set was rly common in XY. Sd and dd are nice, but they haven't changed any and SS tailwind is really overrated imo. Yeah its good but often times Zard can only set up one and when he does a good team can handle a speedy Zard or a slow and powerful Zard. DD or SD Roost / 3 attacks are his best sets and none of them, or even combined, convince me he's S worthy. Zard X is still good, but he's no longer S worthy and should move down / stay A+ (based on which rank we're going on).

Also can y'all Charizard fanboys please stop acting like A+ is a bad rank? Charizard being your favorite Pokémon and playing a heavy bias in your argument won't convince anyone that he's better just because he was your first pick when FireRed / LeafGreen came out :/

 

[Celticpride]

Also can y'all Charizard fanboys please stop acting like A+ is a bad rank? Charizard being your favorite Pokémon and playing a heavy bias in your argument won't convince anyone that he's better just because he was your first pick when FireRed / LeafGreen came out :/

Can we please stop calling everyone who wants Charizard to stay in S a fanboy? There are legitimate arguments for Zard staying in S (although I do think it should drop at this point). Completely denying that there are arguments for Zard in S just because you hate the fanboys makes you no better than them. A certain poster earlier in a comment that later got deleted said something along the lines of "I can't see why anyone would want to use the thing anyway, I never liked it" when arguing for a drop. Blindly hating something just because a particular sect of people obsess over it isn't justifiable in any way really. Not calling you out in any way -Clone-, it's just a behavior I've been picking up on from a lot of people that seems less constructive and frankly kind of backwards.

 

[Clone]

Can we please stop calling everyone who wants Charizard to stay in S a fanboy? There are legitimate arguments for Zard staying in S (although I do think it should drop at this point). Completely denying that there are arguments for Zard in S just because you hate the fanboys makes you no better than them. A certain poster earlier in a comment that later got deleted said something along the lines of "I can't see why anyone would want to use the thing anyway, I never liked it" when arguing for a drop. Blindly hating something just because a particular sect of people obsess over it isn't justifiable in any way really. Not calling you out in any way -Clone-, it's just a behavior I've been picking up on from a lot of people that seems less constructive and frankly kind of backwards.

Thats not what I was referring to. I was referring to the 2-3 people who all made bad arguments or said redundant stuff while having charizard avatars. I recognize that there are legitimate arguments for Xard to be S but some of them are really just not good. Im not hating, but its annoying when the thread gets clogged with biased arguments that either have bad logic or make redundant statements.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

K well I disagree with charx dropping. hardly anything this new gen brought us has negatively affected him(certainly not enough for a drop) and I feel like if salamence didnt fuck us all over char would still be S rank. I just think that his offensive stab combo,ability, attack/speed stat, good movepool all seem to point to S rank, but just because altaria is a contender for a bulky dragon dance set and sableye beats its bulky wisp set he is going to drop? I think the fact that it takes 2-3 A+/S rank mons just to cover all his sets should be a good indicator that he is S rank, but I still am getting used to factoring in opportunity cost. However I am not blind, charx is now clearly a losing battle I can just accept his drop to A+ and move on.

On a different note, can someone give a good argument for metagross? I heard some people give brief arguments for S rank, but they seemed lack luster, I would like to see a nice laid out argument.

 

[ExecutiveDave]

The one argument that I can get behind is the WoW set being outclassed in oras. If that is enough for him to drop or not seems to be more personal opinion than anything.

 

[AM]

On a different note, can someone give a good argument for metagross? I heard some people give brief arguments for S rank, but they seemed lack luster, I would like to see a nice laid out argument.

For M-Metagross it's more about it's ability to be extremely self sufficient and the only real downside is a slight 4MSS. On top of the fact that conventional switch ins are still taken out and worn down easily through coverage and minor support, high bulk combined with its offensive capabilities, power to break through stall, speed tier that already does well against balanced, and utility with Agility/Rock Polish to improve its matchup against faster offense. It's one of those mons that has the ability to put a dent in the lot of stuff throughout the tier with ease and can be extremely difficult to check when utilized well. I could probably elaborate more but the question was really general so not sure exactly what you're looking for.

 

[yoloburn]

Erm, yes it is. They both face competition as Dragon Dancers that take a Mega Slot, that is competition.



Well, this isn't exactly true:

Hide

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 173-204 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 201-237 (47.5 - 56%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 132-156 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 123-144 (40.8 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 90-106 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 38.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 42% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 162-192 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Probably missed an EV spread somewhere, but I think you get the point. Just keep in mind this is all just S - A+ - A - A-. Furthermore, it's not gonna always run 252+, but this is just showing the highest power possible. As you can see, there are a fair amount of ways to check Mega Charizard X. Also, bulky Will-O-Wisp sets are not gonna 2HKO that much. However, Mega Altaria is better than you're giving it credit for. Personally, I prefer spamming Return > Flare Blitz, as it is arguably better because it doesn't have a drawback and gets better coverage. From S - A+ - A - A-, 10 Pokemon resist Fairy-type moves, while 24 Pokemon resist Flare Blitz. As a whole, four types resist Fire and three resist Fairy; thus, I can conclude that Return is, in practice, the more spammable move. Hitting hard is cool yeah, but Flare Blitz's recoil is really not as useful when in terms of raw attacking.




Altaria can learn Earthquake and can even perform special sets, thus separating it once again.



Sure, it's Speed isn't as good, but Mega Altaria runs a bulky DD set as well, with Roost and Heal Bell, giving it better sustainability and self sufficiency. Running just Return isn't even that bad; pardon me for sounding really standard, but Magnezone actually pairs well with it because it can beat Steel-types and allow Mega Altaria to sweep. Getting to +2 isn't really that hard from experiences with it.



Erm, I'm pretty sure your team is very poorly constructed if Charizard sweeps turn one ._. The Tailwind / SD set isn't even that new, I don't get why people are bringing it up now. It's really not that changed n_n. Plus, you're acting like Charizard is always going to have the capacity to setup and sweep, offensive pressure can be placed. Quagsire, while not that common, is an example of defensive Pokemon that don't care about Charizard X. Why is waiting a bit longer to sweep even a bad thing? It's really not, it's just easier later in the match. Mega Charizard X is threatening, but it's not S Rank worthy to me.

tl;dr: Mega Charizard X to stay in A+, Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X or more similar than people give credit for.

I would first like to say that special Altaria is not a competition for Zard X. The role it fills is so different from a DD sweeper that I can't see why we'd even compare them in the first place.

Zard X has 2 great stab combinations coming off 130 attack and tough claws boost. Very very few things resist this. Altaria has redundant stab and only its fairy attack is boosted with its ability. Any coverage it has is very weak and sometimes not even worth using, which is why we see mono-attacking sets.

The problem is that most teams have 2-3 switch ins to Altaria without even trying because Steels are simply everywhere. You can't even trap them with Magnezone because Shed Shell is a thing. On the other hand, your typical OU team only has like 1 switch in to Zard X and it takes so much damage that it can only switch in once. This is why Zard X is more easily spammable. Admittedly I'm not the best player, so maybe it's different higher up on the ladder. But even something like Slowbro can be broken with DD, then Healing Wish brings back Zard X for a second time later on. Literally only Quagsire walls you if you don't have Outrage. You can't actually say that about Altaria.

Thats not what I was referring to. I was referring to the 2-3 people who all made bad arguments or said redundant stuff while having charizard avatars. I recognize that there are legitimate arguments for Xard to be S but some of them are really just not good. Im not hating, but its annoying when the thread gets clogged with biased arguments that either have bad logic or make redundant statements.

This is a dumb post and you should probably keep it to yourself.

My avatar has nothing to do with my opinions. I wear it because it looks cool. I couldn't care less about Charizard and my judgement is objective.

 

[MilkyWay]

I'm not really sure where I stand on Charizard X's placement, but when you keep raving about its "new" set you come off as new and misinformed considering this set has existed for a while and some people will automatically dismiss your arguement because of this.

Edit: this part was ninja'd by a lot of people

Anyways, because Charizard X faces more competition doesn't mean that it should drop. Just becaue Gyarados got Crunch, Mega Sableye is better on stall, and there's another dragon dancing mega doesn't make Charizard X any worse in itself.

Also, when I look at a pokemon's viablity in the transition to ORAS, I don't think "Out of the 10 new megas, it beats 3 of them and loses to 7. Therefore, it is less viable and should drop." To be blunt, the metagame isn't that simple. Due to the new megas being popular and added to the environment, the usage of their checks and counters (who more likely than not have been in existence for a long time) go up, therefore the usage of their checks and counters go up, and so on. A great example of this is Keldeo's viablity. Those who compare Keldeo to the new megas only (and these people are usually just theorymoning) may think that it should just drop automatically due to the speed creep and the fact that Mega Metagross, Diancie, and Gallade etc. beat it. However, pokemon such as Greninja got very popular due to move tutors and Keldeo happens to be a great offensive check to most Greninja sets. On the flip side, Tentacruel has received increased usage to deal with Greninja as well and it happens to wall Keldeo. And then Keldeo's best checks/counters have also dropped in usage such as Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, and the Lati@s. Finally, Keldeo has adapted to the speed creep by running scarf instead of specs to surprise and outspeed frailer, quicker, pokemon. (I'm not trying to make an arguement for or against Keldeo, I'm just using it as an example. For the record I think it should be A+, but I never thought it should have been S to begin with) Clearly, the new metagames' affect on existing pokemon goes beyond comparing that one pokemon to the new pokemon only. Some of the new pokemon might not even end up being relevant in OU. So, when people argue for a certain pokemon to rise or drop based only on comparing it to the new megas I get very annoyed because they are often cherry-picking their arguements, theorymoning, and not taking the entire metagame and how it has changed into account.

With that being said, I think I'm going to shoot the next person who wants Charizard X to rise just because Mega Salemence got banned or Charizard X to drop just because Mega Sableye is better on stall. I understand that these may contribute to your arguement but please do not make it your entire arguement.

I don't like the argument you're offering against altaria's versatility, and pretty much versatility in general. There are several sets that could fit into your parameters; for example: even if the opponent carries a zone, it could very well just be there to remove steels to spam hyper voice easier, or the DD set could just carry eq to hit tran which zone can't remove. Its not easy to guess what a team is weak to because you don't know their sets, my team could be pretty weak to rotom-w but I could just be hiding a crispy power herb solarbeam tran in the back just waiting to destroy it. The opponent might just be a good player and use a mon to lure or pressure the counter (skarm lets say) with a set that is useful for other things too (CB tar can 2hko with stone edge AND beat fire thingies AND lure+hit steels with superpower :O) instead of potentially wasting a moveslot on zone. This way, not only do you more efficiently destroy your wincon's counters (in my experience anyways), you can cloud the set of your mon and be more effective and dangerous overall. Could you tell that altaria is mono attacking DD and that the Tar was CB at first glance? Doubtful. Thus, the simple way of predicting a set based on the team isn't so easy and could even be a trap if you're facing a well built team.
Not to mention its not that hard to guess char-y or char-x; if the opponent lacks a method of trapping lati@s (tyranitar, rotom-w+bisharp) its most likely a char-x, and this holds true for a LOT of teams. Can you gaurantee that altaria will be the exact same set just because you see a magnezone on the same team? not really. Besides char-y is pretty one-dimensional, its only char-x that you have to kinda scout (which still isn't that hard; bulky/semi-stall teams use bulky wisp and offensive teams use DD)

And while i'm here lemme just reiterate why Char-x is A+ worthy: Bulky wisp sucks now b/c mega sableye is far more useful, and it got more checks in mega diancie, mega slowbro, and mega altaria. The Offensive DD sets are of course still dangerous, which is why it should be A+, but not only did it (char-x as a whole) get less versatile, its easier to check now. It should drop.

I'm not trying to be mean and this message is meant for a lot of people, but I dont think what srn (and others) said is a good justification for a drop. It's not wrong, but in my opinion it is all just theorymoning and not actually using said pokemon. Like I said in the post i quoted, the difference between the xy meta and oras meta isnt just the new pokemon. Due to the introduction of new pokemon, other, pre-existing pokemon, are used more and less than before. This shakes the meta up quite a bit and changes a lot of things, something many of you know but forget to take into account. When i think about the ranking of the pokemon we are discussing I often use them and ask myself "Do i think it is better or worse in the new oras meta?" If i do,I propose/back up that change and then build an arguement around this. The only exception i make would be if i disagreed with that pokemons ranking in the first place (im looking at you keldeo). Again, the reasons srn provided for dropping charizard x in the first place arent wrong, but seem to come from a completely theoretical standpoint considering he only mentioned new megas.

I will say that mega sableyes existence is a much bigger hit to charizard x's viablity than mega altarias due to mega sableye almost completely eclipsing zard x as a bulky wow user while altaria is in closer competition. Some people thought the wow set pushed zard x over to S while others disagreed, but again, this is a good point.

Many people have been talking about how factor in "competiton" amongst megas into our viablity ranking and im here to offer my opinion. My opinion was subetly implied in the paragraph above but i will clarify it better. I believe that competition (for a mega slot) should matter based on how good those megas are compared to each other. For example, Mega Salamence almost completely outclassed Mega Pinsir, so mega pinsir should go down. Mega Ampharos is decent, but not as good as other megas even if they dont do the exact same thing. Its ranking should get reflected to this. However, Charizard X and Mega Altaria are both top tier megas. They are both as good as they are. Unlike some other megas, they should not be ranked lower due to this competition with each other because neither one really outclasses the other like the in the other examples. Charizard X's existence doesnt really make it any better, worse, or outclassed in the metagame or vice versa (for the sake of this point, ignore that mega altaria checks/counters zard x because i am only comparing them offensively). The same can be probably be said about Mega altaria, pinsir, zard x, gallade, metagross, and maybe a few others. They are all top tier megas that dont help, hurt, or outclass each other. To provide an extreme example of my point imagine that three megas equivalent to mega salamence existed, all with the same stats and moves but with a different dex number. Should they all be in A+ because they compete with each other even though they dominate the metagame? Nope, id say they all deserve S. However, some megas like mega pinsir might be outclassed and should therefore drop.

Back to charizard x. First off, I wouldnt want it drop based on competiton with the new megas (other than sableye) for the reasons just stated. Now i look at what else has changed. Scard Lando-T seems to have gone up in usage, thats a good thing for jolly dd but not adamant dd. Azumarill has gone down, which is good for all sets. Thundurus has gone up and completely stops all sets from sweeping with prankster t-wave. Scarfers with high base speeds such as keldeo and latios have gone up, this hurts dd but helps sd tailwind sets. Sand rush excadrill with Tyranitar has gone down, helps dd hurts sd tailwind. New "counters" to zard x now exist in mega slowbro, diancie, and altaria. Sd tailwind beats two of them under most cirumstances but loses to diancie. Dd + earthquake beats diancie but loses (probably) to the other two. Mega sableye outclasses wow set mostly so i have ignored zard x's wow set in my mini analysis above. What i have listed is the new changes i have observed that impact zard x. As one can see, the pokemon listed are all supposed to beat some variant of zard x. Some pokemon beat dd but lose to sd tailwind and vice versa. These pokemon going up or down in usage directly affects zard x. High base speed scarfers going up helps the sd tailwind set because people put these scarfers on their team thinking they have accounted for zard x. It hurts the dd set because these scarfers can often revenge it at +1. The combo of excadrill and tyranitar going down in usage has the opposite effect because something the tw sd set lures in isnt as common and a stop to the dd set isnt as common either.

Personally im torn for zard x's ranking. After reading what i just wrote it really comes down to three things: if you agree with me on competition among megas, how much emphasis you place on versatility, and if you thought zard x belonged in S in the first place. I'm personally leaning towards S for two reasons. The first being that it can beat a huge selection of common checks with just two sets (dragon dance and swords dance tailwind). The second is an "innocent until proven guilty" approach. That is to say it is already in S and until i am 100% sure it doesnt belong there i would like to leave it there and see how the meta devlops. Keep in mind that i thought it belonged in S during the xy meta. The third reason is that I am the ultimate charizard fanboy! (Also, the drop to A+ didnt count officially because mega salamence was banned so those changes were scrapped)

EDIT: Charizard X's ranking would also depend on each persons own indivdual standards. When i first started follwing this thread right after xy came out. As a result my standards were originally very high. This is because i thought of S as something like Mega Lucario or Mega Kanghaskan. Something that could be randomly thrown onto a team and do so much work by itself. Then someone used these pokemon against me and i realized these pokemon werent s rank at all, but broken. My standards lowered enough for Charizard X to acheive s rank due to itbeing similar to the previously listed megas but not dominant like they were. My standards still arent low enough for keldeo though

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Holy crap people, stop saying that Mega Sableye outclasses Charizard X as a bulky Will-O-Wisp user. That doesn't even make sense. Besides being a bulky Mega with Will-O-Wisp, they have basically nothing in common. Bulky Charizard X is designed to check things like Charizard Y and the Electrics, neither of which Mega Sableye is particularly equipped to take on. And honestly, people need to really stop underestimating how much more raw offensive presence Charizard X brings to the table as opposed to Mega Sableye; Charizard X's Flare Blitz is hitting nearly three times as hard as Mega Sableye's Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball. Even when you're talking about the much weaker Dragon Claw, Mega Sableye needs to set up 2 Calm Minds before it can beat defensive Charizard X for raw power. Then, of course, there's the speed advantage. Charizard X actually has the option of running speed investment to beat certain slower offensive Pokemon such as Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and Mega Heracross. Mega Sableye doesn't have that option. Honestly, between the far greater power and speed that Charizard X has, Mega Sableye can shove that big red gem up its rump if it thinks that it can hold a candle to Charizard X offensively.

The reason that Mega Sableye gives Charizard X such competition on defensive teams is not because it completely outclassed bulky Charizard X but for the fact that Mega Sableye itself provides so much utility to defense. It has a fairly unique typing that provides it with the ability to spinblock, its ability helps it to further assist in unique control over the hazard game and even helps it stallbreak, and it can toss on Calm Mind to serve as a win condition for stall teams, not to mention the usual defensive stuff that defensive Pokemon tend to do. Fact is, bulky Charizard X just isn't a prime choice for a stall Mega anymore like it used to be (and we haven't even started talking about Mega Slowbro and friends on stall), but that doesn't mean the bulky set is unviable. Just that stall is generally better off with Mega Sableye or something. More balanced and offensive builds can still appreciate Charizard X's ability to take hits effectively while also being able to hit pretty hard right off the bat. I haven't had much time to play ORAS (and I probably won't until finals end in a couple of weeks), but I have tried a more offensive version of the old bulky set and it still checks all the old stuff it used to check, as well as a few new things like Mega Sceptile and non-Earthquake Mega Metagross.

In other words, saying that Mega Sableye is an overall more attractive choice as a bulky Mega for defensive teams is one thing, and I might actually agree with that. However, it's silly to keep saying that Mega Sableye outclasses Charizard X when they don't even check all the same things and when Mega Sableye hits like a literal fart compared to Charizard X unless it can get up a ton of Calm Mind boosts. Charizard X should probably drop to A+, but not because its Will-O-Wisp set is unviable. Heck, it's not even just because it receives new competition for that particular role. One reason I think it should drop is simply because you've got a couple new Pokemon that can check it pretty effectively since they resist the Dragon + Fire combination, and they just both happen to be great new Megas themselves (Diancie and Altaria). Another reason is that Charizard X has to deal with the fact that there are so many other Megas to choose from, and it's just not the top-of-the-heap Mega that it was in XY. Then there's the new competition it receives as a Dragon Dancer from Mega Altaria and a newly buffed Mega Gyarados, which puts a damper on its dominance in that role. I've always thought of S Rank Pokemon as the truly dominating forces that define the metagame, and while Charizard X held that status in XY, I feel that it no longer does and as such could be dropped to A+. But come on, the way some people are talking about "Will-O-Wisp set sucks because Mega Sableye exists!" and "Dragon Dance sets have too much competition now!", some outsider looking at these arguments for the first time would be wondering why on earth this thing isn't being dropped to A- or something.

PS: I'm really tired and kinda in a "I don't give a crap" mood right now, so sorry if this post reads like a jumbled mess, because it probably is.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't think the new competition is too much for Zard X. Given that it still is a powerful wallbreaker with it's DD set, it is still one of the best set-up sweepers we have. Even if Mega Altaria does check it.

I really don't know why people are comparing M-Sableye to Zard X. Even with the WoW set, they aren't mean't to function the same way. Mega Charizard X's set is meant to be more supportive while Mega Sableye is a straight up wall! (At least this is how i see it)

DD sweeps while SD/Tailwind wallbreaks or cleans depending on the situation.

 

[Vinc608]

I think Charizard-X should be placed like XY OU. I will not talk of Bulky WoW, Agent Gibbs said everything. But i don't see why Charizard-X should drop. It has the same counter / check (+ Altaria-Mega but i don't think is a really good argument) as XY OU. For the DD set, Charizard-X has a really good advantage against Altaria-Mega DD : it doesn't have 4MSS. This is a huge advantage, because you can guess the set of DD Altaria. For exemple, if the opponent has a Dugtrio, the set is probably a non-EQ set, etc... In general, Charizard-X is more adapted for a sweeper : stronger, faster than Altaria-Mega. It is really dangerous and people often underestimate him, just because people use Mega of ORAS. Altaria-Mega requires more support, generally to break steels.

TL;DR : Charizard-X should be Rank S.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

I think the purpose of the viability thread too often gets lost in these discussions. There isn't some kind of obscure metagame that revolves around the tierings we come up with. These discussions are meant to provide inexperienced players with a tool to aid them in their team building. Suggesting that a mega evolution whose primary functions are by no means exclusive or unequivocally unparalleled ought to occupy an S rank makes no sense to me, because you're essentially suggesting that that mega evolution, whose very presence on your team inherently limits your choices for the rest of your team, should be one of the first Pokemon you consider when building your team.

I think Charizard-X should be placed like XY OU. I will not talk of Bulky WoW, Agent Gibbs said everything. But i don't see why Charizard-X should drop. It has the same counter / check (+ Altaria-Mega but i don't think is a really good argument) as XY OU. For the DD set, Charizard-X has a really good advantage against Altaria-Mega DD : it doesn't have 4MSS. This is a huge advantage, because you can guess the set of DD Altaria. For exemple, if the opponent has a Dugtrio, the set is probably a non-EQ set, etc... In general, Charizard-X is more adapted for a sweeper : stronger, faster than Altaria-Mega. It is really dangerous and people often underestimate him, just because people use Mega of ORAS. Altaria-Mega requires more support, generally to break steels.

TL;DR : Charizard-X should be Rank S.

This argument has been aired on numerous occasions during the last 5+ pages of discussion and rebutted just as frequently. Assume your opponent has a Dugtrio. This might seem to suggest that Altaria does not run Earthquake. It still does not tell you what kind of spread Altaria is running or what its other moves might b e. It does not tell you if it's going to profit from or heal off status (Facade or Heal Bell), run a bulky or a speedy DD set, or even if it's going to pull off assey Sing shenanigans. It does not even tell you if Altaria is going to DD at all or whether it's going to be used as a wall, a special attacker, or one of the innumerable hybrid builds running around.

Further, the simple and bald truth is that Zard X is just as easy to figure out from team preview. To save time, I'm just going to CP Srn's last post for your convenience:

Not to mention its not that hard to guess char-y or char-x; if the opponent lacks a method of trapping lati@s (tyranitar, rotom-w+bisharp) its most likely a char-x, and this holds true for a LOT of teams. Can you gaurantee that altaria will be the exact same set just because you see a magnezone on the same team? not really. Besides char-y is pretty one-dimensional, its only char-x that you have to kinda scout (which still isn't that hard; bulky/semi-stall teams use bulky wisp and offensive teams use DD)

And while i'm here lemme just reiterate why Char-x is A+ worthy: Bulky wisp sucks now b/c mega sableye is far more useful, and it got more checks in mega diancie, mega slowbro, and mega altaria. The Offensive DD sets are of course still dangerous, which is why it should be A+, but not only did it (char-x as a whole) get less versatile, its easier to check now. It should drop.

 

[mertyville]

I think some people got the wrong idea when they compare megas with similar roles to each other.

Why was it justified to drop when comparing Charizard X to Mega Salamence but not Charizard X to Mega Altaria?

The answer is not because of Dragon Dance, but because when you use Charizard X, you cannot use Mega Salamence. In case you don't know what that means, it means that Mega Salamence was so good (hence why it is banned know) that most Megas became less relevant compare to itself.
Why would you cripple your opponent slowly to ensure a win, when you just can destroy them without risking a lot.
Hence Mega Salamence being a low risk = high reward pokemon.

Mega Altaria's DD-Mono Attacker set does not have the same win condition as Mega Salamence so you have now competition with other Megas.

Mega Charizard X does not rely on its Special Attacking moves unlike most other Dragon Dancers because it already hits insanely hard physically compared to its still usable Special Attack as well as not being able to get burned.
Mega Altaria has to decide if it wants to run one more attacking move or Refresh/Heal Bell/Substitute compare to Charizard X who would rather use dual STAB and Roost/additional coverage.
Now that is only comparing the Dragon Dance set and like others have said, Charizard has a lot of other viable sets.

So if you want Charizard X to drop, you have to compare a larger array of viable Altaria sets that make it more effective (viable) in the meta compare to Charizard X.
That is the reason why Mega Latias will not be near the same rank as those too, because there are not a lot of viable sets besides the Dragon Dance set and unlike the other 2, it has nothing unique to offer (same for Mega Ttar).

I feel like you get a better chance comparing Mega Charizard X to Mega Gyarados who does similar roles like beating Sableye after it Mega Evolte.