Mega Gallade needs to set up, Mega Medicham doesn't. They do not work in the exact same way and neither outclasses the other. That said, I think Mega Medicham should drop to A- due to some new megas which make its life much harder, such as Mega Altaria, Diancie, Slowbro and Sableye, who can wall it and use it as setup fodder, or in Diancie's case, simply OHKO (watch out for Bullet Punch, though!).
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Uhm, Gallade completely outclasses Medicham. This has been stated many times before. Medicham has very few niches over Gallade and should drop to at least C+.
This stated, there are niches, again, but they aren't good enough to keep Medi in A-, or even close to that.
Something not mentioned here is that Gallade is also much more bulky and has a lot more opportunities to sweep.
You don't have to be able to do 100% to count as a revenge killer.
The standard priority set from X&Y used both Fake Out and Bullet Punch. If you look at the three (random) mons I listed, Altaria takes up to 86.8%, which alone is enough to kill it after SR, Lopunny takes 73.8% maximum, which means it's dead after taking 30% prior damage (which isn't that hard), and greninja usually takes up to 83.8% (if both are neutral), but can take up to 126% if it previously used Ice Beam. After 2 roles of Life Orb, Medicham revenge kills Greninja without taking a scratch, while Gallade would be forced to take a LO STAB Gunk Shot.
edit: also your calcs are with jolly instead of adamant fsr. They'd be more realistic/impressive if they were adamant
edit2: last thing I'll say - the set was viable, as determined by the QC team. I already gave 3 scenarios in which medicham > gallade; you've ignored the other two and focused on the specifics of one of them.
Last edited:
That alone doesn't make up for Gallade's more reliable STAB in Close Combat, much better bulk, fantasic support moves like Will-O-Wisp, SD and Knock Off, and MUCH better Speed tier.
A- is not happening for Medicham, B- would be a god send for it.
This is only if a) Altaria isn't running any bulk, which is unusual at the moment, and also only if b) you run both Bullet Punch and Fake Out, which means you're stuck with High Jump Kick + coverage in your attempts at wallbreaking. The latter is particularly egregious, since you're essentially dedicating a mega slot on your team to a wallbreaker who can't break walls, and can only revenge kill relevant threats if they've already been softened up - something made even worse by the fact that Talonflame can do the same thing with only one move, whilst also providing a lot more utility against other threats and without taking up a mega slot:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria: 216-255 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny: 542-642 (200 - 236.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 325-384 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The 'standard priority set' from XY was discussed ad nauseum and generally panned for being crap. Nothing has changed in ORAS. If you want a wallbreaker, use Gallade. If you want a RKer that can revenge Altaria, Lopunny and Greninja, use Talonflame.
Again, the question remains: under what circumstances (ie - on what team) would you ever consider placing Mega Medicham as opposed to Mega Gallade?
This is actually a good idea and I could definitely get behind this.
The reason I think this could work is because, as we all know, mega Pokemon are some of the greatest Pokemon available in the meta, however, you may only utilize one per team. Because of this, I also support the idea of an "OU Mega Pokemon Viability Thread."
Most teams do in fact revolve around their mega, and so a separate thread comparing opportunity cost against one another would help newcomers and veterans alike decide what kind of team they want and which mega best suits said team.
Due to it being a mega specific thread, some Pokemon in A- or A could be in A+ and whatnot due to them being good MEGA Pokemon. Of course we do factor in their overall viability in OU, but it's mainly to show who the powerhouses of the Mega Pokemon factor are, who arent a waste of a slot. Because let's face it, some Mega Pokemon simply do a similar job to one another, but one is just better (Mega Gallade vs Mega Medicham, Mega Charizard X vs Mega Tyranitar, etc.)
This is just an idea, and any tweaks that would improve upon it would be greatly appreciated.
Creating a MEvo ranking thread might sound as a good idea due to the sheer number of MEvos available atm, and also because most MEvos are straight up better than the regular Pokemon in the same ranks and and are only placed in the same rank due to the opportunity cost. However, we will just have to learn to measure and add opportunity cost when determining viability, because ranking MEvos separately is kinda pointless, it's like ignoring the rest of the Pokemon in OU. What's the point of making a separate viability list for MEvos in the first place? The only relevant info people will take is which MEvos are the best in comparison to other MEvos, but the current thread already offers this info.
No more talk about this here, if you want to discuss further PM me.
I don't remember such a thread Kurona, but my memory is not the best.
No more talk about this here, if you want to discuss further PM me.
I don't remember such a thread Kurona, but my memory is not the best.
Would it make any difference though? I don't really understand the point of a separate viability ranking thread for Megas.
In my opinion they'd still be under the same rank because they don't function in a vacuum. All the flaws and benefits still exist in relation to their role in the OU metagame.
Perhaps the only advantage is to be able to see what rank a mega-mon is without scanning through the rest of the pokemon.
In my opinion they'd still be under the same rank because they don't function in a vacuum. All the flaws and benefits still exist in relation to their role in the OU metagame.
Perhaps the only advantage is to be able to see what rank a mega-mon is without scanning through the rest of the pokemon.
Just a super quick thing about mega sceptile: I find that its stabs are kinda unreliable; i more often find myself clicking focus blast to hit the omnipotent ferro/tran/sciz/klefki/skarm/you get the idea mroe than my stabs, and it would be nice if I could actually click my stab moves every once in a while cuz they're not too bad.
Well speaking of that, dpulse is kinda weak topping off at 85 bp and you have to choose between the inconsistent leaf storm or the weak giga drain for grass stab (i guess u cud go energy ball but giga's healing is more useful). So even if you could use your goddam stabs they're pretty piss weak as is.
Basically its overreliant on its coverage moves, which is the same reason I found myself not liking specs dragalge too much.
Mega lop on the other hand hardly needs prediction when scrappy+stabs gets neutral coverage on teh entire meta, that's fantastic. Its usually a smart idea to fake out to make up for the gap in speed, but you can essentially mess with two free moveslots whenever you decide to use mega lop, leaving you to mess with toxic, healing wish, baton pass, power-up punch, substitute, ice punch,thunder wave, encore, heal bell, and magic coat. Mega scept is versatile, sure, but mega lop just has so much more shit to screw around with, you never quite know what its gonna do.
Well speaking of that, dpulse is kinda weak topping off at 85 bp and you have to choose between the inconsistent leaf storm or the weak giga drain for grass stab (i guess u cud go energy ball but giga's healing is more useful). So even if you could use your goddam stabs they're pretty piss weak as is.
Basically its overreliant on its coverage moves, which is the same reason I found myself not liking specs dragalge too much.
Mega lop on the other hand hardly needs prediction when scrappy+stabs gets neutral coverage on teh entire meta, that's fantastic. Its usually a smart idea to fake out to make up for the gap in speed, but you can essentially mess with two free moveslots whenever you decide to use mega lop, leaving you to mess with toxic, healing wish, baton pass, power-up punch, substitute, ice punch,
Imo Mega Altaria is A+ minimum.
This thing is very good right now. All of the sets it can viably run are very useful. Its DD set is quite good with nice STAB Return+coverage in EQ which gives fine coverage and Altaria has a neat defensive typing and good bulk to make use of. Its good offensive stats and bulk allow it to sweep easily after it sets up and it can hang around for quite a bit as a sweeper. A special set isn't out of the question either and can use Pixilate Hyper Voice, which, as Mega Garde and Sylveon have taught us, is awesome. It also has Fire Blast as great coverage which is neat. I think defensive sets are also decent and can use some decent support moves. Yeah whatever but Mega Altaria is just super good, great typing, good movepool, and fine stats make it an easy A+ imo.
Mega Tyranitar should go down to B. Right now, there is a lot of opportunity cost in using Megas, and Mega Tyranitar, while not really a bad Pokemon, has a hard time really standing out. It can check Latis and friends along with Talonflame still while setting up and literally being an animal, but as a DDing Mega, it still doesn't really stand up to Altaria, Charizard X, or Gyarados. Its use is really basically holding you back from using these more efficient Megas out there, such as DDers or even things like Metagross. Mega Tyranitar is just not really standing out right now, and I'd normally use normal Tyranitar's niches more for my team and use another mega (ie Choice Tyranitar sets).
Mega Medicham should probably be B- at most because Mega Gallade is a much better mon in most cases but eh idc where it goes lol.
I really could see Jirachi in A right now. Its typing is very good in this meta and it can run a few sets efficiently. With defensive sets it can take on Mega Altaria, Latis, etc. and has a ton of utility with good offensive options in the mix as well. It can spread paralysis, set up rocks, use Wish or Healing Wish, etc. MixRachi isn't a shabby set either. Yeah I don't have much else to say but I think rachi could move up to A, it's really becoming quite good now.
Just a few thoughts.
This thing is very good right now. All of the sets it can viably run are very useful. Its DD set is quite good with nice STAB Return+coverage in EQ which gives fine coverage and Altaria has a neat defensive typing and good bulk to make use of. Its good offensive stats and bulk allow it to sweep easily after it sets up and it can hang around for quite a bit as a sweeper. A special set isn't out of the question either and can use Pixilate Hyper Voice, which, as Mega Garde and Sylveon have taught us, is awesome. It also has Fire Blast as great coverage which is neat. I think defensive sets are also decent and can use some decent support moves. Yeah whatever but Mega Altaria is just super good, great typing, good movepool, and fine stats make it an easy A+ imo.
Mega Tyranitar should go down to B. Right now, there is a lot of opportunity cost in using Megas, and Mega Tyranitar, while not really a bad Pokemon, has a hard time really standing out. It can check Latis and friends along with Talonflame still while setting up and literally being an animal, but as a DDing Mega, it still doesn't really stand up to Altaria, Charizard X, or Gyarados. Its use is really basically holding you back from using these more efficient Megas out there, such as DDers or even things like Metagross. Mega Tyranitar is just not really standing out right now, and I'd normally use normal Tyranitar's niches more for my team and use another mega (ie Choice Tyranitar sets).
Mega Medicham should probably be B- at most because Mega Gallade is a much better mon in most cases but eh idc where it goes lol.
I really could see Jirachi in A right now. Its typing is very good in this meta and it can run a few sets efficiently. With defensive sets it can take on Mega Altaria, Latis, etc. and has a ton of utility with good offensive options in the mix as well. It can spread paralysis, set up rocks, use Wish or Healing Wish, etc. MixRachi isn't a shabby set either. Yeah I don't have much else to say but I think rachi could move up to A, it's really becoming quite good now.
Just a few thoughts.
Is Slowbro not viable???
Slowbro is very viable, it is A rank. It has a great defensive typing, support movepool, high defense and special attack, and a ridiculously bulky mega to boot. Walls a ton of threats such as Mega Gallade.
Slowbro is a viable physical wall who can take on the majority of Fighting-types in OU, such as Terrakion, Keldeo, Mega Gallade lacking Knock Off, and Mega Lopunny, while walling other stuff, such as Zard X. It also has Regenerator + Slack Off, making it much more difficult to wear down, and it also has a number of attacking moves, such as Scald, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, and Foul Play for whatever your team needs. Mega Slowbro is meant to play a varied role as a win condition for balanced and stall teams, because immune to Trick and critical hits makes it a lot harder to beat. 90 / 180 physical bulk also makes setting up Calm Minds a lot easier.
No doubt. I still think there are ways a separate ranking could help, but I might send you a PM once the ORAS dust settles and I can find time to make a composed, concise argument for it.
Back on topic, I'm cosigning Mew to B+ rank. Stallbreaker Mew's Achilles heel is Magic Bounce, and ORAS introduced two extremely viable users. At this point, finding a counter to Mew isn't hard, and most teams have one almost built in (Zard, Talonflame, the aforementioned Magic Bouncers). Its main purpose of breaking stall, as Aragorn the King pointed out, is made almost moot by the fact that MSable is now run on most stall teams.
On the topic of Mega Medicham vs Gallade, I understand that Medicham has much more initial fire power but why are some people talking about Gallade as if it needs a SD boost to destroy things? Close combat is so powerful that it actually hits harder than timid Gardevoir's hyper voice due to its much higher base power before any multipliers. Swords dance is very viable and powerful but it's a luxury. It definitely does not to get to +2 to start hitting things really freaking hard.
I'm seeing some people only argue that Mega Medicham can contest with Mega Gallade in terms of strength vs certain match-ups and in certain situations--which is true. I get that he's supposed to be pure power (pun intended) but there's no way he can compete with Mega Gallade when Mega Gallade has so many more tools. Will o Wisp, Skill Swap, Knock Off, a more reliable Fighting STAB, better bulk, more speed (somewhat offset on MegaCham since he has useful priority), and, if given the chance, will set up and destroy and opposing team. There's so many more options with Mega Gallade whereas with Mega Medicham you are either an ok wallbreaker or an iffy revenge killer (which other mons could do). I disagree with C+ for Mega Medicham since he's outclassed by another mega but still good in his own right. B- or B is where I'd place him.
Here is my take on the A and A- ranks.
Mega Altaria to A+
Mega Charizard Y stays in A
Mega Diancie stays in A
Dragonite to A-
Excadrill stays in A
Ferrothorn stays in A
Garchomp stays in A
Gliscor to A-
Mega Gyarados to A+
Mega Heracross to A-
Mega Latias stays in A
Mega Lopunny to A+
Mamoswine to A-
Mega Manectric to A-
Mega Medicham to C
Mew to A-
Rotom-W stays in A
Slowbro stays in A
Mega Slowbro to A+
Terrakion to A-
Mega Venusaur to A-
Mega Altaria in A+ rank shouldn't come as a surprise, it's a fantastic Pokemon. Offensively, Dragon Dance sets (either offensive, or bulky) setup on a plethora of Pokemon and are very difficult to revenge kill thanks to Mega Altaria's typing and balanced stat spread which grants it great bulk. Fairy-STAB is probably the best STAB type, Mega Altaria has Roost for keeping itself healthy, special sets lure physical checks, and defensive sets wall a number of Pokemon including Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and Mega Sceptile.
Dragonite should move to A- or even B+ because the ORAS metagame gives it far more checks rendering most of its main sets harder to work with effectively. It's checked by Mega Altaria and Mega Metagross (talking about DD sets btw), and CB Dragonite is less useful because with Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Sylveon, Clefable, and Mega Metagross all being very common, it has to play a lot more carefully, which isn't desired. CB Extremespeed is still a valuable tool though to check offensive teams that have been weakened a bit, with common Pokemon like Thundurus, Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny, Latios, and Greninja, all of which make CB Dragonite still a reasonable choice, so I'm leaning more towards A- rank.
AM explained Gliscor, it loses a lot of its utility with Mega Sableye being close to standard on stall teams, and it's almost funny to think that Mega Sableye almost hinders Pokemon's viability in the way Aegislash did, oddly. Not on the same level, but it's interesting. Gliscor can't touch Mega Sableye; Mega Sableye sets up in its face, not a good plan, and Gliscor isn't that good against offense either due to lacking Intimidate and not being able to use Choice Scarf like Landorus-T, while also being exploitable by the many Pokemon on offensive teams like Greninja, Mega Altaria, Sub Mega Sceptile, SubDD Gyarados, etc.
Mega Gyarados should probably move up because of two reasons, Crunch making it one of the few physical Water-types (or even Pokemon) to be able to get past Slowbro and give it a neutral STAB against many Water-resists like Mega Venusaur, and the fact that Mega Gyarados is able to completely setup against Mega Sableye with Substitute, as Knock Off and Shadow Ball can't break the Substitute. Mega Sableye are often paired with Chesnaught though, but once this is taken care of it's easier. Mega Gyarados is annoyingly walled by Mega Altaria though on offensive teams, so I'm kind of torn.
Mega Lopunny is an exceptional Pokemon in the metagame, Fake Out + base 135 Speed makes Mega Lopunny the new Greninja, lol. Amazing coverage in Scrappy High Jump Kick + Return gives it two free slots to do whatever it wants, and Mega Lopunny has plenty of support options for these slots which have been explained.
Most things have been agreed with by other members of the thread, some of the drops I felt didn't compare to other Pokemon in their ranking, and Mega Medicham is terrible lol there isn't any reason to use people are just looking for niches but it's obvious in a few months time no one will be seeing this Pokemon anywhere.
Not going to touch A- rank just yet, although the pretty obvious outlier is Mega Sableye which is easily A+ at worst, for obviously being a stall staple that checks a number of Pokemon while also being a lategame wincon and immune to Taunt, Toxic, and the rest, yes the stuff we already know.
Mega Altaria to A+
Mega Charizard Y stays in A
Mega Diancie stays in A
Dragonite to A-
Excadrill stays in A
Ferrothorn stays in A
Garchomp stays in A
Gliscor to A-
Mega Gyarados to A+
Mega Heracross to A-
Mega Latias stays in A
Mega Lopunny to A+
Mamoswine to A-
Mega Manectric to A-
Mega Medicham to C
Mew to A-
Rotom-W stays in A
Slowbro stays in A
Mega Slowbro to A+
Terrakion to A-
Mega Venusaur to A-
Mega Altaria in A+ rank shouldn't come as a surprise, it's a fantastic Pokemon. Offensively, Dragon Dance sets (either offensive, or bulky) setup on a plethora of Pokemon and are very difficult to revenge kill thanks to Mega Altaria's typing and balanced stat spread which grants it great bulk. Fairy-STAB is probably the best STAB type, Mega Altaria has Roost for keeping itself healthy, special sets lure physical checks, and defensive sets wall a number of Pokemon including Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, and Mega Sceptile.
Dragonite should move to A- or even B+ because the ORAS metagame gives it far more checks rendering most of its main sets harder to work with effectively. It's checked by Mega Altaria and Mega Metagross (talking about DD sets btw), and CB Dragonite is less useful because with Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Sylveon, Clefable, and Mega Metagross all being very common, it has to play a lot more carefully, which isn't desired. CB Extremespeed is still a valuable tool though to check offensive teams that have been weakened a bit, with common Pokemon like Thundurus, Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny, Latios, and Greninja, all of which make CB Dragonite still a reasonable choice, so I'm leaning more towards A- rank.
AM explained Gliscor, it loses a lot of its utility with Mega Sableye being close to standard on stall teams, and it's almost funny to think that Mega Sableye almost hinders Pokemon's viability in the way Aegislash did, oddly. Not on the same level, but it's interesting. Gliscor can't touch Mega Sableye; Mega Sableye sets up in its face, not a good plan, and Gliscor isn't that good against offense either due to lacking Intimidate and not being able to use Choice Scarf like Landorus-T, while also being exploitable by the many Pokemon on offensive teams like Greninja, Mega Altaria, Sub Mega Sceptile, SubDD Gyarados, etc.
Mega Gyarados should probably move up because of two reasons, Crunch making it one of the few physical Water-types (or even Pokemon) to be able to get past Slowbro and give it a neutral STAB against many Water-resists like Mega Venusaur, and the fact that Mega Gyarados is able to completely setup against Mega Sableye with Substitute, as Knock Off and Shadow Ball can't break the Substitute. Mega Sableye are often paired with Chesnaught though, but once this is taken care of it's easier. Mega Gyarados is annoyingly walled by Mega Altaria though on offensive teams, so I'm kind of torn.
Mega Lopunny is an exceptional Pokemon in the metagame, Fake Out + base 135 Speed makes Mega Lopunny the new Greninja, lol. Amazing coverage in Scrappy High Jump Kick + Return gives it two free slots to do whatever it wants, and Mega Lopunny has plenty of support options for these slots which have been explained.
Most things have been agreed with by other members of the thread, some of the drops I felt didn't compare to other Pokemon in their ranking, and Mega Medicham is terrible lol there isn't any reason to use people are just looking for niches but it's obvious in a few months time no one will be seeing this Pokemon anywhere.
Not going to touch A- rank just yet, although the pretty obvious outlier is Mega Sableye which is easily A+ at worst, for obviously being a stall staple that checks a number of Pokemon while also being a lategame wincon and immune to Taunt, Toxic, and the rest, yes the stuff we already know.
I don't really wanna make a post on the OU viability thread just for this, but i'm going to anyway:
who agreed to mega diancie staying in A? I guess i didn't see any noms moving it up, but i'd atleast like to see some reasoning for it.
Between CM and Rock Polish it requires a little scouting and its ability is obviously fantastic; its typing makes itself a natural flyspam+char-x check and it has reliable stabs with great coverage in psyshock and earth power, and all its stats bar hp are phenomenal (110 is a crowded speed tier rn but its still great), so why keep it A? Admittedly i haven't even used it once but all the times i've faced it its quite terrifying.
That wasn't an official update; that was just TRC's opinion. Not sure if you could tell or not, but you seemed a little apprehensive, as if a big change was made when it wasn't.
Anyway, I agree with most of what you said TRC, although I think you're a) being too easy on Mew, and b) should say why you think Mamo should drop. Other than that I think everything checks out fine. :)
I just thought Mew could drop; I didn't really consider by how much because I thought I could get to that when I address the A- ranks. As for Mamoswine, I'm pretty sure it was ranked that high in the Mega Salamence era and while it still has valuable niches such as Ice Shard being great priority for Mega Sceptile, I'm inclined to say that I really can't put it on the same level with some of the other Pokemon in or to be in that rank, like Mega Sceptile, and if we start taking Mega ranking inflation more seriously, some Pokemon like Mega Latias and Mega Diancie could be in A or A+ rank, and if they're in the latter, I simply can't compare Mamoswine to them.
It's hard to establish that those are necessarily better than Mamoswine when they serve different functions on different team builds as a whole and should be considered how consistent they are in the meta either through a specific role or multiple roles. Mamoswine is a fantastic lead for offensive builds now a days even after the M-Mence era with its EndeavorSash set. This isn't exactly a post to establish its ranking but it definitely is consistent enough to warrant its use on a variety of offense which includes Volt-Turn builds such as those with M-Manectric and M-Beedrill or Hyper Offensive builds that include teams with M-Lopunny and M-Alakazam.
I'm not denying they serve different functions - that much is obvious. I'm comparing how much they offer to a team, and in my own opinion, what Mamoswine offers is certainly a great amount, but it isn't on the level of what the other Pokemon offer. However, people may consider this incorrect, but that is why there is a group of people voting, not just me. This is simply my take.
I can't imagine Sceptile in the same rank as Manectric. It has some positives over Manectric like better offensive stats and Grass/Dragon STAB, but its typing leaves it easy to strike down with all forms of priority other than Aqua Jet and it also has a tough time against balance and stall teams because of its lack of a momentum gaining move which Manectric has (and Lopunny too, which is also in A and has baton pass). Manectric's typing and useful ability in Intimidate actually allows it to check most priority users making it more of a team supporter unlike Sceptile which ends up need lots of support from partners that can take all the priority thrown at it. I'd say Sceptile should stay one rank below in A-.
My problem with mega Sceptile is its lack of power. To elaborate, it is really good against offense yes but, it can't really break through stall which is common atm. It just can't do enough damage to really matter unless they just don't have a check for it (which is highly unlikely) for this reason I'm going to say A- at best until this bulkier meta has died down and it can have a chance to shine a bit brighter.
- Status