SPOILERS! General Pokémon Anime Discussion

[Hulavuta]

Now I'm gonna ask what your opinions are on Paul and if you think he was designed to be a strawman for competitive battling (as in, what this community is based around)?

I'm not sure if he was designed to be a parallel to any real-life group, because the whole kinda stuck-up elitist character is one of the oldest cliches, especially in the rival position (think Kaiba from Yu-Gi-Oh! and such). I think people who use him as an argument against competitive battling are strawmanning though, because it's just simple facts, no amount of willpower or determination or hardwork is going to make your Pokemon's stats go beyond what's mathematically possible. I'm not sure if anyone actually uses him as an argument though, but if they did I wouldn't be too surprised.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I'm not sure if he was designed to be a parallel to any real-life group, because the whole kinda stuck-up elitist character is one of the oldest cliches, especially in the rival position (think Kaiba from Yu-Gi-Oh! and such). I think people who use him as an argument against competitive battling are strawmanning though, because it's just simple facts, no amount of willpower or determination or hardwork is going to make your Pokemon's stats go beyond what's mathematically possible. I'm not sure if anyone actually uses him as an argument though, but if they did I wouldn't be too surprised.

I think Paul was more meant to be the opposite of Ash in terms of how he sees a Pokemon's potential. Ash thinks that every Pokemon has a chance to be great while Paul thinks only a certain few can be great. Sure, he had shades of a competitive player, but that's more because Ash isn't a competitive player, thus his opposite would be.
But if anyone uses Paul as an argument against competitive play you have full permission to laugh them off. It's kind of obvious the anime runs by different rules then the games do, mainly because in the anime's world the Pokemon are living creatures while in the games they're, well, data. Paul is surprised that essentially abusing a living creature isn't getting the results he wants? What a shock. But if someone playing the games IV trained a hatched Chimchar all the way to a level 100 Infernape, they'd have a competitive Infernape that'll do what they want it to do.

 

[Hulavuta]

I think Paul was more meant to be the opposite of Ash in terms of how he sees a Pokemon's potential. Ash thinks that every Pokemon has a chance to be great while Paul thinks only a certain few can be great. Sure, he had shades of a competitive player, but that's more because Ash isn't a competitive player, thus his opposite would be.

I definitely agree, I don't think Ash ever argued with a rival to the level he did with Paul so he was a good foil. I wouldn't say Ash isn't a competitive player though, his goal has been to be the best trainer since episode 1. It's just that in the Pokemon universe, weak Pokemon can become strong just through hard work and power of will which unfortunately is just not applicable to the games which run off math and code.

 

[Morningstar]

Okay, what about Tobias? what are your thoughts on him? (I'll leave the competive angle out this time)

 

[Pikachu315111]

I definitely agree, I don't think Ash ever argued with a rival to the level he did with Paul so he was a good foil. I wouldn't say Ash isn't a competitive player though, his goal has been to be the best trainer since episode 1. It's just that in the Pokemon universe, weak Pokemon can become strong just through hard work and power of will which unfortunately is just not applicable to the games which run off math and code.

True, and I think Ash was at his best in the Sinnoh League. His performance there is what made his Unova performance just pitiful. I don't know why the writer didn't evolve his Unova Pokemon all the way, heck I think that's why Ash vs. Trip was the first match (which only meant that was one less match for you to look forward to later).

Okay, what about Tobias? what are your thoughts on him? (I'll leave the competive angle out this time)

Tobias? I don't have a problem with him but rather with some stuff they did with him and the aftermath of it (or rather none aftermath). First I don't have a problem of him using one Legendary. Darkrai provided an interesting challenge our protagonist had to overcome. However it's the second Legendary that Tobias pulled out I have a problem with. Now I'm not saying Darkrai is all that Tobias should have brought (and honestly Ash probably wouldn't have gotten through Tobias other 5 fresh Pokemon), but him pulling out a Latios was just overkill and felt like the writers just wanted to make sure Ash had no way of winning. But still, even then Ash did manage to knock out Latios in a double knockout, which goes to my second problem. I think this is the first time a trainer was viewed by an audience (and probably filmed) knocking out Legendaries. But does that get Ash any recognition anywhere? NOPE. And worse yet, the trainer that faced Tobias next couldn't beat Tobias's Darkrai, meaning the League's 2nd place couldn't do what Ash did. So despite Ash taking out Legendaries that no one else could take out, he gets no recognition and a trainer who's "supposedly" stronger than Ash actually seems weaker. While in real life that probably happens, you verse a super strong opponent early so get knocked out early, for a madeup storyline you usually want to ignore that as it makes the viewer feel like the main character got ripped off and thus the viewer feels they wasted their time.

 

[precita]

Pikachu315111, you make some good points. I think the problem with Misty/Brock as the anime progressed is that after Ash started to get better at battling they just felt...redundant?

Misty was easily expendable simply because she was female and bringing new female companions into the anime. Brock probably only lasted a long time because Tracey failed at replacing him and they just always need a token exposition guy to explain Ash's battles to the audience.

Still it doesn't explain why the writers hardly had either of them battle or focus on their goals much. Misty did the least amount of battling of any female companion in the series (prior to Serena), and whenever we did see her battle it was mostly to watch her fail with Psyduck. Its why its legitimately hard to recommend any Misty battle of the anime to watch, outside of the nostalgia of the Cerulean Gym match, Misty barely has any noteworthy battles at all besides a few in late Johto.

As for Brock, I legitimately barely remember him battling at all. In every saga he was in he did almost little to no actual battling. Brock had such cool Pokemon too, but when did we ever see Ludicolo, Crobat, Onix, Marshtompt or Foretress actually battling? Very little.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Pikachu315111, you make some good points. I think the problem with Misty/Brock as the anime progressed is that after Ash started to get better at battling they just felt...redundant?

Misty was easily expendable simply because she was female and bringing new female companions into the anime. Brock probably only lasted a long time because Tracey failed at replacing him and they just always need a token exposition guy to explain Ash's battles to the audience.

Still it doesn't explain why the writers hardly had either of them battle or focus on their goals much. Misty did the least amount of battling of any female companion in the series (prior to Serena), and whenever we did see her battle it was mostly to watch her fail with Psyduck. Its why its legitimately hard to recommend any Misty battle of the anime to watch, outside of the nostalgia of the Cerulean Gym match, Misty barely has any noteworthy battles at all besides a few in late Johto.

As for Brock, I legitimately barely remember him battling at all. In every saga he was in he did almost little to no actual battling. Brock had such cool Pokemon too, but when did we ever see Ludicolo, Crobat, Onix, Marshtompt or Foretress actually battling? Very little.

Well there's the Whirl Cup arc if you want to see Misty battle. As for Brock, the only one that really stands out to me was the Tag Team battles during the Sinnoh saga (the one where Ash and Paul was teamed up), Brock even battled Paul and Croagunk did some nice damage against Torterra.

 

[precita]

Yeah, those were a few of them.

Maybe the writers should have focused more on Misty as a water pokemon trainer rather than a love interest for Ash half her run. Its like after the anime was a success the writers realized they couldn't keep a shipping plot between Ash and a female companion, so Misty lost that aspect of her and it was too late to focus on the water pokemon side.

Its pretty obvious that when Misty originally left the show, the only people really complaining were all those obsessed Pokeshippers who seriously believed Misty and Ash had to "declare their love" for one another and become a couple. Funny how its been 12 years now since Misty left and all the writers did was purposely bury Misty's character for the rest of the series, not even having her re-appear in any episodes since Hoenn ended. And now they're promoting Serena as Ash's new love interest.

As someone who was in the fandom a decade ago when Misty originally left, I find it oddly hilarious and ironic that people tried to make such a big deal out of her leaving for years even though she never turned out to be anything more than a short-lived sidekick character from the beginning of the anime's run. If you told people back in 2002 Misty would remain gone for the next 12 years of the anime and there would be 4 main girls who came in after her, they would never believe you. I often wonder what happened to some of those Misty fans....you can still find them on places like livejournal or deviantart still lamenting their AAML.

 

[Pikachu315111]

One thing we all should remember is that the Pokemon anime is made to sell the games so its about a trainer (Ash) going the various regions to compete in the Leagues there while catching and training the new Pokemon of that region. The anime is not about romance, and all those ships you hear about are just fanon and that's all. Even when the writers themselves tease a ship, just remember its not really going to amount to anything, at least to nothing that we'll actually see develop. For example, Digimon season 1 and 2 also had plenty of shiptease but it wasn't until the last minutes of the last episode of season 2 did they do a timeskip and showed the official couples. Recently Naruto ended and they're going to have a movie that takes place after a timeskip to show what has happened in that world as well as show the official couples there.

Reasons those were revealed after a timeskip and during the last episode/movie after the series ended? Because the show's weren't about romance. And the same for Pokemon. Sure, now we have Serena who's acting all flirty with Ash, but it's not going to go anywhere since you couldn't buy Ash a clue with all the money in the world and Serena has other issues to think about.

Anyway, Misty left the show because the writers couldn't think of anything else to do with her, only keeping Brock around because they needed a reason Ash wouldn't die of starvation. But even then they realized they could have other caretaker characters so out he went too. I'll admit I was sad to see Misty didn't come to see Ash when he came home from Sinnoh or Unova, but she is a Gym Leader so was probably busy (plus Ash left pretty quickly to those regions as soon as he got back). We didn't see or get a reference to May or Max during Unova so they're gone off doing their own thing fully. During Unova we got a few episodes of Dawn making an appearance and there was a special with Cilan meeting Brock so that's pretty much their farewell episodes. In Kalos we'll probably see Iris or Cilan again (and if not both the one who didn't appear will probably get a special), but after that they'll fully go off and do their own thing. And the same will happen with Serena, Clemont, and Bonnie. This is Ash's story so he's the main focus thus the character who (supposedly) we're suppose to be seeing constantly growing, changing, and improving. Every other character joins in with an interesting character and goal, though eventually they'll get to a point where in order for their character to keep growing they'll need to separate from Ash and so they do. You could even say it's a life lesson, you'll make plenty of friends in life but they have their own paths to follows.

Oh, not to mention Ash & co. are all kids, at most mid-teens. Brock and Cilan were the oldest and I'd argue they were at most late teens/entering adulthood. So yeah, even if there was romance you can't really do anything with it.

 

[precita]

I think its better the characters leave after only one generation. Brock stayed in the anime far too long, he should have left at the end of Hoenn/Battle Frontier at the latest. During DP people were so sick of Brock that the writers were able to easily axe him and his goodbye scene had very little fanfare.

I was actually a huge fan of the anime up to the end of DP, but after that...not so much. Its not like I dislike XY or its characters, but I just feel that DP would have been a good stopping point for the anime. Ash was at his strongest there, Paul was the best rival, and what they did with Dawn makes me realize no other female companion will get her type of screentime again...as we've seen with Iris/Serena.

Now it feels like the female companions are just repeats of the older ones. Iris was the new Misty, and Serena is just a repeat of Dawn and a little bit of May. Also without anything like Contests in the anime the girls do little to nothing again, a similar problem Misty had once Johto rolled along. Oh well.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I think even now the writers kind of wished the anime did things differently, like do what the Special Manga did and do each region with a new cast of characters. The writing in BW and XY doesn't feel that strong, it feels like the writers are getting tired. I've also noticed there's been pacing problems. In DP they skipped over the Battle Frontier because they had too many fillers, in Unova they tried doing what they usually did with the villain team with Team Plasma but an disaster caused them to scrap it and add them post story, and in XY I feel they're introducing the new Pokemon way too fast that they're going to run out new Pokemon to show off.

 

[kantotrainer90]

Hi,

What would you say is the best Pokemon anime series? Are there certain episodes you hate/love?

Personally, I felt this newest season was the most annoying - x and y. Some episodes were good, but the rest felt too meh. Team rocket didn't have any unique openings, the two young kids (not serena and ash) seem a bit too annoying for me.

I feel it's about time for a new Pokemon anime not around Ash. One can only dream right?

 

[cant say]

Hi,

What would you say is the best Pokemon anime series? Are there certain episodes you hate/love?

Personally, I felt this newest season was the most annoying - x and y. Some episodes were good, but the rest felt too meh. Team rocket didn't have any unique openings, the two young kids (not serena and ash) seem a bit too annoying for me.

I feel it's about time for a new Pokemon anime not around Ash. One can only dream right?

+1 vote for this forum's namesake, I really enjoyed the Orange Islands arc. It was cool to see Pokemon competing in a way other than battling with the crazy gyms and Ash's battle against Drake was pretty good imo. The series also has one of my all time favourite episodes; Bye Bye Psyduck, which made Golduck one of my favourite Pokemon. I just love how he keeps winking and giving thumbs up to all the girls haha. The Crystal Onix episode was also pretty cool, and obviously as a kid I believed any rumour I heard that might result in me getting one in-game...

I also used to really like the Sinnoh Saga but it was the only series they used to show on my local station (don't have cable) and it would be on repeat from the first episode to the last, so I've seen every episodes about 5 times and am now totally sick of it, but that doesn't stop it from being a good series overall. I just think it has some of the stronger characters Pokemon-wise eg: Ash's Buizel, Gligar/Gliscor and Gible, Dawn's Piplup and Brock's Croagunk... Ash also has a pretty strong team (as far as the anime goes) and actually evolves his Pokemon (!!). Paul makes for a strong rival and the Sinnoh League was easily the best league (I actually liked Tobias sweeping everyone with Darkrai, more people should have Legendaries imo). Not sure if I can chose a favourite episode in the series... I liked the one with Phione, and the one when they get stuck in that tower / rocket and fly to space (Tower of Terror I think?)

So yeah, OI and Sinnoh for me.. I haven't seen any XY except for one episode this morning actually, Ash helped two brothers on a scavenger hunt or something.. I want to watch the series from the start but I haven't finished with adventures in Unova yet

 

[kantotrainer90]

+1 vote for this forum's namesake, I really enjoyed the Orange Islands arc. It was cool to see Pokemon competing in a way other than battling with the crazy gyms and Ash's battle against Drake was pretty good imo. The series also has one of my all time favourite episodes; Bye Bye Psyduck, which made Golduck one of my favourite Pokemon. I just love how he keeps winking and giving thumbs up to all the girls haha. The Crystal Onix episode was also pretty cool, and obviously as a kid I believed any rumour I heard that might result in me getting one in-game...

I also used to really like the Sinnoh Saga but it was the only series they used to show on my local station (don't have cable) and it would be on repeat from the first episode to the last, so I've seen every episodes about 5 times and am now totally sick of it, but that doesn't stop it from being a good series overall. I just think it has some of the stronger characters Pokemon-wise eg: Ash's Buizel, Gligar/Gliscor and Gible, Dawn's Piplup and Brock's Croagunk... Ash also has a pretty strong team (as far as the anime goes) and actually evolves his Pokemon (!!). Paul makes for a strong rival and the Sinnoh League was easily the best league (I actually liked Tobias sweeping everyone with Darkrai, more people should have Legendaries imo). Not sure if I can chose a favourite episode in the series... I liked the one with Phione, and the one when they get stuck in that tower / rocket and fly to space (Tower of Terror I think?)

So yeah, OI and Sinnoh for me.. I haven't seen any XY except for one episode this morning actually, Ash helped two brothers on a scavenger hunt or something.. I want to watch the series from the start but I haven't finished with adventures in Unova yet

crystal onix was one of my fav episodes too! orange islands was cool bc it was tropical and unique!

 

[Pikachu315111]

Hi,

What would you say is the best Pokemon anime series? Are there certain episodes you hate/love?

Personally, I felt this newest season was the most annoying - x and y. Some episodes were good, but the rest felt too meh. Team rocket didn't have any unique openings, the two young kids (not serena and ash) seem a bit too annoying for me.

I feel it's about time for a new Pokemon anime not around Ash. One can only dream right?

I'd say the Battle Frontier arc was pretty good. You got to see Ash actually being the tactical battler he's said to be, you got to see some old favorites come back and battle, and its one of the few things that Ash has fully finished and even offered to become a Frontier Brain which would hold some interesting ideas for the future if time actually passed in the anime (lazy Dialga).

Though that make me sad we never got to see the Gen IV Battle Frontier (even though they teased it) because they wasted their time on filler and needed to get Ash to Unova asap.

 

[Morningstar]

I like the Meloetta arc from Best WIshes. It had one of my favorite pokemon (go on guess) and Giovannu actually doing something instead of being The Mob Boss that doesn't do anything but play a stereotypical Bond Villain.

Of course the series was in a nadir for the rest of it. I think my favorite "whole" arcs were Advanced and Diamond and Pearl. Decent movies, nice battles, the Battle Fronetier point mentioned above and I think the former actually instilled nostalgia for the GBA games despite me never playing them (till the remakes)

 

[precita]

Aside from the nostalgia for Kanto and Orange Islands which are still enjoyable to this day, the two best series overall were DP and Advanced Generation.

Neither series was perfect, but I think AG and DP came as close as the anime could to making Pokemon a proper shonen anime. Ash developed as a trainer, evolved his Pokemon, May and Dawn went through more character development than virtually any of the other companions, and the Contests were better than any other characters sidequest. You also had great rivals like Paul, Drew, Harley, etc.

The XY anime is pretty decent, but Serena feels like a worse version of Dawn and just used as shipping bait.

 

[Lady Vader]

I can't really answer that with any authority. I watched Kanto the most with a handful of Orange Islands, some episodes of Johto (back when they were new), a few early Advanced Generation ( back in 2003), one DP (a couple of years ago), and a third of the way through the first episode of Black and White. Nostalgia and the sheer larger number of episodes watched leads me to say Kanto.

 

[precita]

The 18th Pokemon movie is about Primal Groudon, Kyorge and Mega Rayquaza. Probably Hoopa too.

 

[11pikabro]

From what I hear from plenty of fans, Best Wishes (BW) was a low point for the anime. I really, really, want to disagree with them, but then the battle of Ash vs. Cameron made me let out such a big sigh...

Spoiler for those who don't know what I mean

I would've never expected ANYONE to not know that a Full Battle is 6v6. And yet Cameron, who ends up bringing only five Pokémon to the battle, still beats Ash, who was up 3-1 before Cameron's Riolu appeared. But, as Ash shows in his eight gym battle, I guess number of Pokémon doesn't matter, so long as you win at the end.

Nevertheless, I actually still enjoyed Best Wishes overall. It was refreshing to see Ash actually have an overcapacity of Pokémon again after two generations, where Ash always had a vacancy ready for a sixth Pokémon (Glalie for Hoenn, Aipom for Battle Frontier, Gligar for Sinnoh, and Gible for Sinnoh when Gliscor temporarily left). It's a good reminder that Ash can and will catch more Pokémon than he needs. There are also some great battles in Unova, for although most of them were meh, the ones that impressed ended up being some of my favorites in the whole anime.
I guess the only other major letdown for me was Pikachu losing Volt Tackle. Electro Ball is cool, but Volt Tackle was awesome and had that cool stylistic animation change.


Speaking of the upcoming Pokémon movie, I wonder if this'll finally tie the Mega Evolution Acts with Ash and Co., seeing as how the movie involves Mega Rayquaza.

 

[Pikachu315111]

From what I hear from plenty of fans, Best Wishes (BW) was a low point for the anime. I really, really, want to disagree with them, but then the battle of Ash vs. Cameron made me let out such a big sigh...

Spoiler for those who don't know what I mean

I would've never expected ANYONE to not know that a Full Battle is 6v6. And yet Cameron, who ends up bringing only five Pokémon to the battle, still beats Ash, who was up 3-1 before Cameron's Riolu appeared. But, as Ash shows in his eight gym battle, I guess number of Pokémon doesn't matter, so long as you win at the end.

There was several problems with the Unova League other than the Ash vs. Cameron battle.

Hide

1. Ash battled Trip during the preliminaries when both could only use one Pokemon. It was Pikachu vs. Serperior and the majority of the battle was Pikachu trapped in Serperior's Wrap. Trip, Ash's supposed rival for Unova, and the final battle between the two is one of the most disappointing battles ever. And this is coming off from the Ash vs. Paul battle which was awesome!

2. The Ash vs. Cameron battle definitely felt they were pulling things out of their @$$. The major issue with the battle really wasn't Cameron not bringing only 5 Pokemon (in a way Lucario was sort of his 6th), but that Riolu/Lucario was pretty much in god mode. The battle started out okay with Cameron sending out a Hydreigon and knocking out a good number of Ash's Pokemon, but then Ash quickly turned the battle right around until Riolu was sent out who swept the rest of Ash's team. Cameron only needed Hyreigon and Riolu/Lucario to win. It also amplified the major problem with Ash's Unova team: many were not fully evolved, some weren't even evolve at all.

3. And of course as soon as Cameron defeats Ash he was defeated. "So what, that usually happens to the trainers that defeat Ash". True, but usually they get defeated by a trainer we don't know. However Cameron got defeated by a trainer that Ash & co. met right before the League who has a unique gimmick of using the Eeveelutions (which many believed to be a foreshadowing Sylveon, especially with his Eevee not knowing what it wanted to evolve into). Honestly they should has Ash defeat Cameron and lose to Virgil.

4. They kind of ruined the premise of Ash needing to catch a lot of Unova Pokemon. Originally the premise was that Ash didn't have access to his reserve Pokemon with Professor Oak thus needed to catch a whole batch of new Pokemon so he had variety for the Unova League, further hammering in that point by having him send his Pokemon to Professor Juniper to hold. And even through the Unova league they kept it, but after it they completely ruined it. Now while I was glad to see Charizard added back to the cast, I didn't like how Ash got it back. I originally thought they were going to have some excuse like since this was a Kanto Festival that they had a direct channel between Unova and Kanto thus making Pokemon teleportation between the two regions possible. But NOPE, Ash just calls Professor Oak and he sends over Charizard... THEN WHY DIDN'T HE DO THAT FOR HIS RESERVES DURING THE UNOVA LEAGUE! He had no problem asking for his reserves during the Sinnoh League, so why didn't he do it for the Unova League?

 

[Morningstar]

Speaking of the upcoming Pokémon movie, I wonder if this'll finally tie the Mega Evolution Acts with Ash and Co., seeing as how the movie involves Mega Rayquaza.

Considering that said specials were apparently referenced in OR/AS; Then there will be rage since that would imply that the general anime (complete with "Aim for the horn", Thunder Armor [though I actually would like to see that in the games], and several plot holes compared to the games) are also directly canon to the games (Though Zinnia's multiverse talk would imply that the anime is canon anyway in a different universe, though the same could be said for Special, the other PokeManga, Origins, Mystery Dungeon, Trozei, Battle Trozei, the Orre games, Conquest and arguably most fanfics (and TwitchPlaysPokemon). But their not canon in a way that would affect the games themselves beyond some references) And it would introduce several plot holes to the games.

 

[precita]

Best Wishes tried to be a reboot for the anime but still kept Ash as a main character, so it made no sense. The backlash caused the writers to make XY with Ash as mature and competent as possible, along with making Serena into the exact opposite of Iris. Whereas Iris constantly called Ash a kid and acted superior to him, Serena on the other hand idolizes Ash and has a huge crush on him. Its rather odd...its like the writers made Serena into Ash's fangirl/love interest as a direct contrast to Iris.

Of course Serena herself isn't really all too interesting either, she's really just a combination of the weaker traits of May and Dawn combined into one character. Outside of the people hoping for the Ash/Serena ship to become canon, there really isn't anything all too interesting about Serena on the cast.

I think the writers just gave up writing female companions after the Contests were dropped from the show and they finished writing May and Dawn. Now they know they can just bring in an endless cycle of females and it doesn't matter what they do with them.

 

[Lady Vader]

Of course Serena herself isn't really all too interesting either, she's really just a combination of the weaker traits of May and Dawn combined into one character. Outside of the people hoping for the Ash/Serena ship to become canon, there really isn't anything all too interesting about Serena on the cast.

They can always do what the internet did: make her a yandere.

I would watch the hell out of XY if this happened.

 

[Morningstar]

They can always do what the internet did: make her a yandere.

I would watch the hell out of XY if this happened.

And they she could hide her murders from the rest of the group. Ash, Clemont and Bonnie would never think that sweet innocent Serena would be a mass murder.

Then they go to Geosenge and notice that Serena is sprouting black and red wings, there are suspiciously perfect sculptures around and a redhead with an army of tacky cohorts suddenly appears and say this:

Hide

I want Yveltal