Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

Status
Not open for further replies.
Henry what makes you think Mega Venusaur deserves to drop two whole sub-ranks? I agree that the increased competition for a MEvo on defensive teams hurts it, but it's still a very viable option on balance and bulky offense. It may be Mega Metagross bait, but it's also a solid counter to Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie without Psyshock, as well as a good check to Mega Sceptile and the recently buffed Mega Gyarados. All around, it's still a great MEvo that checks tons of stuff and has an excellent blend of bulk, power, and resistances. Imo, it should definitely stay in A.

I would like to see some discussion about whether Jirachi should go to A or not. I have seen some people advocating for this and i was wondering which set people find to be Jirachi's best and the one that makes it A worthy. Because i don't think that this set is SpD, which has two big flaws, two turn recovery that is very easy to take advantage of and a Pursuit weakness. Other good and viable sets are SR + U-turn, Scarf, and SubToxic, and all of them also make Jirachi a very versatile threat, which could be a big contributing factor for Jirachi's raise in A rank. So, which set you think is the best, why, and does it make Jirachi A rank worthy?
 
alexwolf said:
Henry what makes you think Mega Venusaur deserves to drop two whole sub-ranks? I agree that the increased competition for a MEvo on defensive teams hurts it, but it's still a very viable option on balance and bulky offense. It may be Mega Metagross bait, but it's also a solid counter to Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie without Psyshock, as well as a good check to Mega Sceptile and the recently buffed Mega Gyarados. All around, it's still a great MEvo that checks tons of stuff and has an excellent blend of bulk, power, and resistances. Imo, it should definitely stay in A.

I would like to see some discussion about whether Jirachi should go to A or not. I have seen some people advocating for this and i was wondering which set people find to be Jirachi's best and the one that makes it A worthy. Because i don't think that this set is SpD, which has two big flaws, two turn recovery that is very easy to take advantage of and a Pursuit weakness. Other good and viable sets are SR + U-turn, Scarf, and SubToxic, and all of them also make Jirachi a very versatile threat, which could be a big contributing factor for Jirachi's raise in A rank. So, which set you think is the best, why, and does it make Jirachi A rank worthy?
Click to expand...


Mega-Venusaur is A rank as of now, so I wouldn't be dropping it by two sub ranks o_o. I wanted to drop it to A-, which still qualifies it as a great pokemon. I can see why you'd think it should stay in A, but I just think in terms of how it can fit into teams, ironically I see venu working more on balanced teams as opposed to common stall archetypes. I don't really think it got less viable, just more difficult to build with and not as easy to justify using (but still good).

I can't really say much about Jirachi, haven't used it or even seen it in ORAS. It was incredibly underrated in XY, so unless it got worse (which it didn't with synergy with sableye, benefits if twave and lack of pursuit trappers), i don't see why it wouldn't merit A.
 
Last edited:
Henry said:
Mega-Venusaur is A rank as of now, so I wouldn't be dropping it by two sub ranks o_o. I wanted to drop it to A-, which still qualifies it as a great pokemon. I can see why you'd think it should stay in A, but I just think in terms of how it can fit into teams, ironically I see venu working more on balanced teams as opposed to common stall archetypes. I don't really think it got less viable, just more difficult to build with and not as easy to justify using (but still good).

I can't really say much about Jirachi, haven't used it or even seen it in ORAS. It was incredibly underrated in XY, so unless it got worse, i don't see why it wouldn't merit A.
Click to expand...
Mega Venusaur was in A+ when ORAS came out and it dropped to A. Also, i agree that Mega Venusaur is more viable in balance than in stall, but in the XY meta, Mega venu was a very viable choice in stall and amongst the best defensive MEvos to use there, alongside Mega Charizard X and Mega Scizor. That's not true anymore in ORAS, as Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro give it unreal competition in stall teams, which is what i was referring to.
 
043cfd3b19d145b702d9156de6773d85.png

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 291-343 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 344-405 (97.7 - 115%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 462-544 (106.9 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 244+ Def Tentacruel: 486-572 (134.6 - 158.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

yeah we might just need mega venu back jesus fucking christ
 
alexwolf said:
Mega Venusaur was in A+ when ORAS came out and it dropped to A. Also, i agree that Mega Venusaur is more viable in balance than in stall, but in the XY meta, Mega venu was a very viable choice in stall and amongst the best defensive MEvos to use there, alongside Mega Charizard X and Mega Scizor. That's not true anymore in ORAS, as Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro give it unreal competition in stall teams, which is what i was referring to.
Click to expand...
Oh uh, yeah I said competition with slowbro and sableye in my other post too n_n. If venu is more viable on balanced teams, then it faces even more competition for the megastone, as balanced is much less restrictive on what can be used, making it even harder to justify using, although venu in itself is pretty unique.
 
alexwolf said:
Henry
I would like to see some discussion about whether Jirachi should go to A or not. I have seen some people advocating for this and i was wondering which set people find to be Jirachi's best and the one that makes it A worthy. Because i don't think that this set is SpD, which has two big flaws, two turn recovery that is very easy to take advantage of and a Pursuit weakness. Other good and viable sets are SR + U-turn, Scarf, and SubToxic, and all of them also make Jirachi a very versatile threat, which could be a big contributing factor for Jirachi's raise in A rank. So, which set you think is the best, why, and does it make Jirachi A rank worthy?
Click to expand...
On offensive teams Iron Head, U-Turn, Body Slam / Trick, Healing Wish. On Balanced and Stall teams Iron Head, U-Turn, Body Slam, utility move which most times will be protect for scouting and leftover recovery, Stealth Rock, or whatever I feel is necessary for the team. These are the particular sets as WishTect I believe can be a liability at times while Subtoxic I have limited use during XY mostly but I'll elaborate a bit why it's still great. As far as best sets I don't believe there is one. I think its versatility alone plays a huge part in the ease of implementing Jirachi on teams. Let's also consider the fact in most cases you can literally just click Body Slam with no opportunity cost and you have a 60% chance of paralyzing non Ghost and Electric types under most circumstances which is highly beneficial. This isn't like Sleep Clause either where you connect Sleep and you're now limited to the sims clause. You can pass around Paralysis potentially to the majority of the opponents team and regardless of how fast or slow it is, nothing likes to be paralyzed because that's a 25% chance that they won't be able to do anything that turn, which means momentum on your side. As far as sets like Subtoxic , Scarf, and in combination with Body Slam goes, you can pretty much cheese your way through a match just by flinching your opponent to death on top of all these benefits. Serene Grace is pretty much the pinnacle of Jirachi because it enhances all these traits and allows builds to function much more efficiently.

Henry brought up a good point about how it has got better or worse. The reason why I think it's got better is because the transition from XY to ORAS has put a new emphasis on two things with probably more that I'm missing out on but you'll get the idea.

1. Set up sweepers and prominent Scarfers such as M-Altaria, M-Gyarados and fast paced offensive with notable threats such as M-Sceptile, M-Lopunny, and Lando-T scarf variants.
2. Heavy M-Sableye stall which needs to have a reliable M-Gardevoir answer and one that has the ability to accomplish multiple traits to potentially consolidate roles to allow more team-building freedom.

Paralysis users are in demand to begin with in regards to point 1. We're seeing this with the increased viability of Klefki and Thundurus who both provide Paralysis through Prankster Thunder Wave, Clefables running Twave that at one time wasn't even considered and is now a perfectly viable option, and Jirachi who falls under this general group of paralysis inducers to slow down these fast paced offensive teams or hinder balanced and stall builds. Outside of very specified stuff like Stun Spore Breloom and Amoonguss Jirachi is one of a handful of Paralysis inducers that can actually paralyze Ground types, think Lando-T and Gliscor.

This is why I think Jirachi has got better in the metagame. Pursuit weak I think plays a solid role in its viability but when I know that on my build Jirachi will function effectively due to providing the offensive and defensive synergy I need that's definitely a good sign of its viability to me and I see it more A than A- when I consider the pros and cons.
 
Srn said:
043cfd3b19d145b702d9156de6773d85.png

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 291-343 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 344-405 (97.7 - 115%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 462-544 (106.9 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 244+ Def Tentacruel: 486-572 (134.6 - 158.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

yeah we might just need mega venu back jesus fucking christ
Click to expand...

250px-195Quagsire.png


Not like stall doesn't have other options to handle BellyAzum. Also its not that common.
 
Honestly, Jirachi is pretty underrated atm and should probably rise. Both Scarfrachi and Spdef rachi are very good at what they do and fit very well on a whole bunch of teams. The Spdef set is an amazing asset to stall and can go toe-to-toe with some of the biggest threats in OU, including Mega Altaria, Clefable, Garde, the Lati twins and a whole host more. It has great utility moves like Wish and Stealth rock and has very little issues with longevity despite a lack of reliable recovery (Unless you count wish) because it can often paraflinch teams to the point where it gains an obscene amount of heath back.
Below are a few calcs just to show how well it takes on mons it walls, even if they run SE coverage or a surprise set.
Mega Altaria
+1 252+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 318-376 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
DDs on the switch, paralyse on the EQ and Iron Head to death, not amazing but you still break it, not to mention Alt is generally more defensive orientated
252+ SpA Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Modest Altaria fails to 2hko with Fire Blast, pretty fucking impressive.
Clefable
+1 4 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 136-160 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- 20.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 Flamethrower does nothing, while you 3HKO in return
+6 4 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 358-422 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Even if you are the worst player in history and you let it set up to +6, you can still survive, not that id recomment it.
Latios
4 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even if it carries EQ, you are still safe to switch in, para, and proceed to make the opponent cry

The Scarf set is slightly outclassed but it still gets the same job done that it has since gen 5, annoying the fuck out of opponents until they have no hair left. Everyone kinda knows what itll do but unless you can break through the hax, good luck. These sets arent the only ones and rachi has a ton of customiseable moveslots thanks to a fairly wide movepool and well rounded stats, Move to A.

Mega-Venusaur really isnt as bad as people are saying its become, honestly it's offensive tank set is still as effective as ever as an amazing glue for bulkier teams that need an Azumaril and Keldeo counter. It can also check Greninja depending on the set as most gren can no longer run extrasensory to overcome it. The biggest issue with it is that the influx of new megas means that Venu must compete for a slot on teams, but this affects every other mega and is the only reason it dropped at all, keep it at A for now.
 
I'll give my support for Dragonite dropping to A-. Dragonite is still a powerful setup sweeper, but there are rather lots of things it can't break through anymore.
Defensive behemoths like Mega Slowbro hardly gives about boosted Outrages/Dragon Claws and Mega Sableye can quickly get a burn off and ride out the weakened attacks. With Mega Altaria around it also faces competition from that, since Mega Altaria's better typing (it pretty much ignores Dragonite itself), overall well rounded stats, and it's ability to run a special set as well as a Dragon Dance set makes it a more versatile and threatening pokemon overall. Having access to Multiscale can only help so much, but even with that there are some attackers these days that can break past it anyway.
 
I nominated last time Mega Ttar for B/-B and now, after the oppotunity cost has got heavier, I figured we can bring it down to at least B-.
The only unique thing about Mega Ttar over Ttar is the Dragon Dance set so but we have other more viable Dragon Dancers in the tier:
Mega Charizard X: Immun to burn, Faster, reliable recovery, can beat Mega Sableye
Mega Altaria: Better defensive Typing, reliable recovery, viable mono attacker, heal bell against burn, can run Facade
Mega Gyarados: Bulkier, Faster, Mold Breaker to break Rotom-W and Mega Sableye
Gyarados: Intiminade, faster
Dragonite: Multiscale, Priority, can hold Lum Berry to bypass burn or get more boosts when hit by SE attacks with Weakness Policy

Even if you need a mega for a sand team, you got better options like:
Mega Charizard Y: Can take advantage of the Sand to reset sun, great wallbreaker
Mega Charizard X: Suprise factor because people expect Y under sand
Mega Aerydactyl: Really anti-meta right now like good against Bird Spam, blazing Speed, immun to sand
Mega Diancie: Gets SpD boost from Sand, can take on Mega Sableye, great Speed Tier and Offenses
Mega Scizor: immun to sand, great defensive typing allowing it to set up easier, priority bullet punch, knock off
Mega Metagross: Great overall stats, great offensive options + build in pseudo-Life Orb with more power

You can even consider other less attractive Megas which are viable under sand like:
Mega Garchomp: Under sand it is more viable than Kyurem-B as a mixed wall breaker and is not weak to Stealth Rocks, gets Sand Force boost
Mega Steelix: Sand Force
 
Supporting jirachi to A rank. The versatility it provides with all the possible sets it could be running is simply impressive and worthy of a place in A rank. Specially defensive to deal with the ever prevalent lati twins, scarf set which can be pretty annoying and with healing wish it is a godsend for plenty of teams. Subtoxic, wish tect, paraflinch, cm + 3 attacks (questionable but eh). It can even spread paralysis with body slam to aid your teammates to deal with faster threats.

Really cool mon and should move up cause of how useful it can be for pretty much any team.
 
AM said:
On offensive teams Iron Head, U-Turn, Body Slam / Trick, Healing Wish. On Balanced and Stall teams Iron Head, U-Turn, Body Slam, utility move which most times will be protect for scouting and leftover recovery, Stealth Rock, or whatever I feel is necessary for the team. These are the particular sets as WishTect I believe can be a liability at times while Subtoxic I have limited use during XY mostly but I'll elaborate a bit why it's still great. As far as best sets I don't believe there is one. I think its versatility alone plays a huge part in the ease of implementing Jirachi on teams. Let's also consider the fact in most cases you can literally just click Body Slam with no opportunity cost and you have a 60% chance of paralyzing non Ghost and Electric types under most circumstances which is highly beneficial. This isn't like Sleep Clause either where you connect Sleep and you're now limited to the sims clause. You can pass around Paralysis potentially to the majority of the opponents team and regardless of how fast or slow it is, nothing likes to be paralyzed because that's a 25% chance that they won't be able to do anything that turn, which means momentum on your side. As far as sets like Subtoxic , Scarf, and in combination with Body Slam goes, you can pretty much cheese your way through a match just by flinching your opponent to death on top of all these benefits. Serene Grace is pretty much the pinnacle of Jirachi because it enhances all these traits and allows builds to function much more efficiently.

Henry brought up a good point about how it has got better or worse. The reason why I think it's got better is because the transition from XY to ORAS has put a new emphasis on two things with probably more that I'm missing out on but you'll get the idea.

1. Set up sweepers and prominent Scarfers such as M-Altaria, M-Gyarados and fast paced offensive with notable threats such as M-Sceptile, M-Lopunny, and Lando-T scarf variants.
2. Heavy M-Sableye stall which needs to have a reliable M-Gardevoir answer and one that has the ability to accomplish multiple traits to potentially consolidate roles to allow more team-building freedom.

Paralysis users are in demand to begin with in regards to point 1. We're seeing this with the increased viability of Klefki and Thundurus who both provide Paralysis through Prankster Thunder Wave, Clefables running Twave that at one time wasn't even considered and is now a perfectly viable option, and Jirachi who falls under this general group of paralysis inducers to slow down these fast paced offensive teams or hinder balanced and stall builds. Outside of very specified stuff like Stun Spore Breloom and Amoonguss Jirachi is one of a handful of Paralysis inducers that can actually paralyze Ground types, think Lando-T and Gliscor.

This is why I think Jirachi has got better in the metagame. Pursuit weak I think plays a solid role in its viability but when I know that on my build Jirachi will function effectively due to providing the offensive and defensive synergy I need that's definitely a good sign of its viability to me and I see it more A than A- when I consider the pros and cons.
Click to expand...
One minor thing, but Body Slam is definitely not as spammable as you say. NP Thundurus, Rotom-W, Mega Sableye, Magnezone, Mega Manectric, and Gliscor are all common Pokemon that you don't want to give free turns to, as they can either start boosting and become quite troublesome to take down, or pivot to a strong attacker with U-turn / Volt Switch. Still neutral on Jirachi rising, just wanted to clear this out.
 
alexwolf said:
One minor thing, but Body Slam is definitely not as spammable as you say. NP Thundurus, Rotom-W, Mega Sableye, Magnezone, Mega Manectric, and Gliscor are all common Pokemon that you don't want to give free turns to, as they can either start boosting and become quite troublesome to take down, or pivot to a strong attacker with U-turn / Volt Switch. Still neutral on Jirachi rising, just wanted to clear this out.
Click to expand...
U-Turn helps with this as these are very common switch ins and as such sort of goes both ways sometimes however good point regardless.
 
Pardon the really short post, I'm on my mobile, but I wanted to say this now.
I really want to agree with the push of Altaria to A+, since there's really no reason for it to be any lower. It's got great bulk, a fantastic typing, being weak to very few things, good offensive stats and a good movepool to back it up. It may be a little bit slow, but it doesn't particularly matter once a Dragon Dance is up. It has reliable recovery as well, making it hard to take down defensive spreads.

Now, about Mega Tyranitar, I really don't think it should drop down too far. It's got great stats across the board, and you don't have to run a Dragon Dance set if you don't want to. It's fantastically bulky, especially under the Sand. It's got a huge Attack stat as well as having a great movepool. B+ sounds fine for it, since it's a great Mega, even if it faces competition.
 
Raikou to A-

First, everyone played Mega Manectric. Then people realized that the Mega Slot is really important and run Raikou. Raikou is, like Mega Manectric, a Talonflame Check, a Mega Pinsir Check, a Gengar Check, a Check to every electro type Pokémon, one oft the best Greninja Check (SDef Gyara is the best :]) and much more. Other than Mega Manectric, it don't gives a Bisharp a +2. Raikou have also a higher speed than normal Manectric which is useful, too. Raikou's movepool is simple, but enough.

writing in handy sucks, maybe i'll editing this :[
 
Mega Tyranitar is certainly formidable, and it's a good mon by itself, but I have to agree with what's been said here. It has great stats overall - a good HP stat, monstrous defenses, awesome special defense paired with that 50% boost in the sand, a huge attack stat, and even a decent special attack stat. It's hard to see how this is outclassed, but as been said in this thread, mons like Zard X, Gyarados, Mega Gyarados, Mega Altaria, etc all have different properties that differentiate themselves from Ttar. Altaria has well-rounded stats overall, which are nothing spectacular but still well-rounded, as well as Pixilate, amazing typing, and reliable recovery. Zard X has pretty good typing, good offenses, good speed (but in a crowded speed tier), Tough Claws...and then something like Dragonite has Multiscale, and doesn't take up a mega slot. Despite the fact that other mons can do somewhat better at DD than ttar, I think it should fall to B+ or B.
 
Lord Qwilfish said:
Raikou to A-

First, everyone played Mega Manectric. Then people realized that the Mega Slot is really important and run Raikou. Raikou is, like Mega Manectric, a Talonflame Check, a Mega Pinsir Check, a Gengar Check, a Check to every electro type Pokémon, one oft the best Greninja Check (SDef Gyara is the best :]) and much more. Other than Mega Manectric, it don't gives a Bisharp a +2. Raikou have also a higher speed than normal Manectric which is useful, too. Raikou's movepool is simple, but enough.

writing in handy sucks, maybe i'll editing this :[
Click to expand...
I dont necessarily agree with this, as Raikou can no longer check Greninja as well as it could in XY. 40 Atk LO Gunk Shot does a hefty chunk, and if Raikou switches in on any attack + Stealth Rock it will be finished off with Gunk Shot.
For example, if it switches in on Ice Beam, generally Greninja's most spammable move, it does this: 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 109-130 (33.1 - 39.5%)
Add 12% to that and Raikou is down to a little under half HP. Then Gunk Shot easily finishes it off: 40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 212-251 (64.4 - 76.2%)
 
boltsandbombers said:
I dont necessarily agree with this, as Raikou can no longer check Greninja as well as it could in XY. 40 Atk LO Gunk Shot does a hefty chunk, and if Raikou switches in on any attack + Stealth Rock it will be finished off with Gunk Shot.
For example, if it switches in on Ice Beam, generally Greninja's most spammable move, it does this: 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 109-130 (33.1 - 39.5%)
Add 12% to that and Raikou is down to a little under half HP. Then Gunk Shot easily finishes it off: 40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 212-251 (64.4 - 76.2%)
Click to expand...

The only two "counters" to Greninja are Porygon2 and RestTalk Gyarados, which both don't work that well in offense teams. Basically, and I think this was said before, if you don't have good bulk, aren't faster than base 122, and weak to: Fire, Water, Psychic, Grass, Dark, Poison, or Fighting, you're gonna lose 1 on 1. Raikou simply isn't a reliable counter anymore because it's screwed up by Gunk Shot.
 
The issue I have with putting Jirachi in A Rank is making the leap that it is comparable in viability to Ferrothorn and Rotom-W, which simply is not the case; these two Pokemon are standard defensive building blocks for all sorts of bulky offense and balanced teams that provide a lot of utility. Ferrothorn is a good hazard setter and serves as a check to a litany of common threats, including Greninja (HP Fire is pretty rare so this is mostly safe), Landorus-T, non-HP Fire Latios, Azumarill, Latias, Mega Diancie, Mega Gyarados, Mamoswine, Kyurem-B, TG RD Manaphy (which is notoriously difficult to handle), Kabutops, Kingdra, and Raikou, among many other Pokemon that it can check or pivot into in certain scenarios by virtue of its extremely high bulk and resistances. Rotom-W provides an all-important Ground immunity and checks all kinds of Pokemon including Greninja with the right spread (248 hp / 124 spdef), Azumarill, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Scarf Keldeo, Heatran, Mega Pinsir, slow SD Mega Scizor, Talonflame, SR Excadrill, non-EQ Mega Gyarados, normal Gyarados, Mamoswine, defensive Slowbro, Jirachi, and Mega Swampert while being able to gain momentum against or handle many others 1v1 with the aid of Will-O-Wisp, Pain Split, and Volt Switch. I would say it's pretty clear that Jirachi doesn't provide this same amount of overall utility and usefulness for all kinds of teams, and thus Jirachi should stay in A- Rank.
 
Jirachi beats ferro with fire punch / sub anyway and rotom-w isnt that common / good atm cause it cant switch in safely on any pokemon u mentioned (except like swamp / mamo) but i agree with dont put jirachi in a rank cause heatran is around
 
Aurious said:
Jirachi beats ferro with fire punch / sub anyway and rotom-w isnt that common
Click to expand...
The point is not whether Jirachi can beat them; the point is that you cannot compare Jirachi to them in regards to viability as a defensive pivot. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the fact that Rotom-W isn't that common when it sees consistently high usage and for good reason (which I described in my previous post).
 
Jukain said:
The point is not whether Jirachi can beat them; the point is that you cannot compare Jirachi to them in regards to viability as a defensive pivot. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the fact that Rotom-W isn't that common when it sees consistently high usage and for good reason (which I described in my previous post).
Click to expand...
Rachi and rotom check completely different mons, rachi checks fairies / dragons while rotom checks strong grounds / waters
 
Jukain said:
The issue I have with putting Jirachi in A Rank is making the leap that it is comparable in viability to Ferrothorn and Rotom-W, which simply is not the case; these two Pokemon are standard defensive building blocks for all sorts of bulky offense and balanced teams that provide a lot of utility. Ferrothorn is a good hazard setter and serves as a check to a litany of common threats, including Greninja (HP Fire is pretty rare so this is mostly safe), Landorus-T, non-HP Fire Latios, Azumarill, Latias, Mega Diancie, Mega Gyarados, Mamoswine, Kyurem-B, TG RD Manaphy (which is notoriously difficult to handle), Kabutops, Kingdra, and Raikou, among many other Pokemon that it can check or pivot into in certain scenarios by virtue of its extremely high bulk and resistances. Rotom-W provides an all-important Ground immunity and checks all kinds of Pokemon including Greninja with the right spread (248 hp / 124 spdef), Azumarill, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Scarf Keldeo, Heatran, Mega Pinsir, slow SD Mega Scizor, Talonflame, SR Excadrill, non-EQ Mega Gyarados, normal Gyarados, Mamoswine, defensive Slowbro, Jirachi, and Mega Swampert while being able to gain momentum against or handle many others 1v1 with the aid of Will-O-Wisp, Pain Split, and Volt Switch. I would say it's pretty clear that Jirachi doesn't provide this same amount of overall utility and usefulness for all kinds of teams, and thus Jirachi should stay in A- Rank.
Click to expand...
As a defensive pivot yes jirachi is overshadowed by rotom w and ferrothorn however I feel you are discounting and underrating jirachis versatility which is why it should be A rank. Jirachi's choice scarf set is still very effective at checking fairies and revenging certain sweepers depending on which elemental punch you use, is ice punch for dnite, thunder for gyarados, fire for scizor while having excellent utility in trick to screw stall and healing wish to allow you to play more recklessly with your mons. The e-belt set famous in previous gens is still effective in luring mons like gliscor, lando-t, heatran and ferothorn. For the effectiveness offensive sets and strong support and defensive sets jirachi should go to A rank.
 
Cloud_Nine987 said:
The only two "counters" to Greninja are Porygon2 and RestTalk Gyarados, which both don't work that well in offense teams. Basically, and I think this was said before, if you don't have good bulk, aren't faster than base 122, and weak to: Fire, Water, Psychic, Grass, Dark, Poison, or Fighting, you're gonna lose 1 on 1. Raikou simply isn't a reliable counter anymore because it's screwed up by Gunk Shot.
Click to expand...
Speaking of ninja counters, one thing I've been experimenting with recently is umbreon. It's not really relevant to A and A- discussion, but it has a few interesting niches in this metagame. Sychronize allows it to get a rare toxic off on mega Sableye while resisting any and all of its relevant attacks and it counters Greninja with it's solid bulk and lack of weakness to anything Greninja runs. It's not exactly the greatest Pokemon to grace the earth, but it does have a few other niche uses as a cleric. I'd say Umbreon is D worthy while Sableye and Greninja are major threats.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top