I've brought this mon up before, but aside from that I don't recall any discussion about Makuhita. If you don't want the in-game trade (and I don't blame ya) you can still get it before Brawly. On paper at least it looks pretty good. It's got high attack, decent bulk because of its HP stat, early evolution, a choice between two great abilities, and early access to Force Palm and Knock Off. Its stabs hover around 65-70 for a LONG time though, and knock off seems like the best coverage it gets. As for major battles, it looks like a powerful choice against Wattson and even flannery if you got Thick Fat, destroys Norman, and has to wait a bit before doing well in other boss battles but has really good E4 matchups against Sydney, Glacia, and even Steven. Also, you're good against whatever evil team you're up against. Aqua uses a half-dark type a lot of the time, and Magma's STABs are blocked by Thick Fat. I'm just theorymonning here because I haven't gotten the game yet, but I plan on using it in my run when I do get OR. Thoughts?
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ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324
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Makuhita is great in-game, but that speed and odd bulk (huge HP, low defenses) really keeps it out of S-rank in my opinion.
Knock-off is okay for coverage, but remember that it doesn't get the boost 95% of the time due to hardly anybody carrying an item. It's better off running some combo of bulldoze, fake-out, rock tomb, knock-off, and STAB for most of the game. Thick-fat is probably the best in-game ability outside of dexnav'ing for Sheer Force, but not really that awesome (remember that Team Magma only really runs the Numel line outside of zubat and poochyena, which has a ground STAB in addition to fire). And as mentioned, it doesn't get a high power stab move for a long time, and Close Combat on something this slow will come back to bite you. But props to coming early and evolving early.
I'm splitting hairs and picking strawman's, since it is good and very useful. But not S-rank.
Knock-off is okay for coverage, but remember that it doesn't get the boost 95% of the time due to hardly anybody carrying an item. It's better off running some combo of bulldoze, fake-out, rock tomb, knock-off, and STAB for most of the game. Thick-fat is probably the best in-game ability outside of dexnav'ing for Sheer Force, but not really that awesome (remember that Team Magma only really runs the Numel line outside of zubat and poochyena, which has a ground STAB in addition to fire). And as mentioned, it doesn't get a high power stab move for a long time, and Close Combat on something this slow will come back to bite you. But props to coming early and evolving early.
I'm splitting hairs and picking strawman's, since it is good and very useful. But not S-rank.
Errm, I don't know how aren't you getting the Pledges. I got it first time in Mauville, and I didn't even use the Soothe Bell you get in (iirc) Slateport.
Not that it saved my Grovyle from being terribad, though.
Not that it saved my Grovyle from being terribad, though.
It likely depends on the number of Pokémon you are using. More Pokémon = fewer levels for your starter and less happiness. I'd also imagine that a few of us played around with the Dex Nav a shitload and therefore have a ton of extra steps contributing to happiness. I've had friends who have failed to get the pledges upon first arrival, so it isn't an uncommon occurrence. Colonel M or Celever should just make a judgement call regarding pledges and tiering so we can move on to more worthwhile discussions.
I don't see the discussion on Treecko ending anytime soon, especially since its the only non-S Rank of the ORAS starters. And since the pledges issue varies from player to player, it also means that their experience with Treecko would be different from player to player. Someone with a team of two or three going into Mauville would fare very differently with Treecko than someone with a bigger team by that point in the game.
Of course, the discussion on Treecko's tier might betray a very different discussion. The XY IGT List has 4 S-rank mons: Aerocadtyl, Charmander, Honedge, and Riolu. By contrast, ORAS's current IGT List has 9 S-rank mons: Alakazam, Carvanha, Lati@s, (counting them as one because they're very similar and you get a different one in each version, so its more like Megazard X vs Y than 2 separate pokes) Lotad, Magnemite, Marill, Gardevoir, Mudkip, and Torchic. The ORAS tier list's S rank is much more cluttered and I think that's why a lot of people want are upset that Treecko isn't there. Just a hunch, and I'm not trying to denigrate any of those 9 mons of course.
Of course, the discussion on Treecko's tier might betray a very different discussion. The XY IGT List has 4 S-rank mons: Aerocadtyl, Charmander, Honedge, and Riolu. By contrast, ORAS's current IGT List has 9 S-rank mons: Alakazam, Carvanha, Lati@s, (counting them as one because they're very similar and you get a different one in each version, so its more like Megazard X vs Y than 2 separate pokes) Lotad, Magnemite, Marill, Gardevoir, Mudkip, and Torchic. The ORAS tier list's S rank is much more cluttered and I think that's why a lot of people want are upset that Treecko isn't there. Just a hunch, and I'm not trying to denigrate any of those 9 mons of course.
It's probably that you would be able to get the pledges on the return trip to Mauville (i.e., when Brendan/May offer to warp you there after Meteor Falls).
Do also remember that with XY, I set the bar very high for S-Rank; the mons that were ranked S really deserved it and were very much a cut above everyone else. I personally think that the same philosophy should apply to this list wrt the top of the tree but then again, this is not my tier list.
In my humble opinion, the only ones that have really earned their stripes atm in S-Rank are Alakazam, Latios, Mudkip and Torchic. As for the others after some thinking, Carvanha is clearly A-rank at best (High B-rank based on battling but surfing bonus pushes it into A range), Latias should stay in S though the credibility of that is a bit shaky, Lotad seems more of an A or B, Maggy is high A at least but S is not out of reach, Marill is in a similar boat to Maggy, and outside of Brawly, Gardevoir's early game is too sub-par to warrant S though it is a solid A ranker. Nothing from A-Rank is good enough for S imo, not even Treecko.
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On the topic of happiness:
I had Golbat evolve at Level 23 around Fiery Path every time without anything apart from Soothe Bell.
Caught Zubat on Level 12, had it in against Brawly and May on Rt 110 but not against Wattson. I backtracked once to Granite Cave but didn't explore much else, no grinding involved but also no fainting.
Tbh I was very surprised when this first happened and I think that happiness was changed somehow, it´s just very unusual to happen that smoothly. Step count should be not far away from 1000 even with the bikes, level gain of 11 is quite low as well...
Now to sum it up: It might be very possible to reach required happiness with your starter when you equip Soothe Bell(no favouritism, you get one so you can use it). But I don´t think this will influence Treecko very much, its much more important for Torchic and Mudkip to get strong elemental STAB early, at least before the fight on the volcano.
Also I used Torchic, with soft resetting for good nature and stats(20/12/10/13/9/10, naughty), but it had a modest early game and doesn't get excellent for a long time. It just lacks bulk and speed to survive against Wattson, the team boss, Flannery or Norman(no Blaziken yet or you are severely overleveled). Then you get Megachick which is cool but has a difficult time against flying, psychic and water gym, contributes everywhere but not in an excellent way. It only excels in the Elite Four, but I would´t call this struggling performance S tier. Hoenn has never been a great game for Fire or Fighting types and chick is both... Mine was high B tier.
Edit: I would always fish for a lv. 15 Magikarp which needs around 27 encounters to get with 75% certainty, those five extra minutes are worth it if you don't want to grind. Or you can always skip the advantage against Flannery and Norman and catch it on Lv 25.
I even had fun with Bulldoze Gyarados(needed some grinding to get to lv 20 from lv 18 so I fought all trainer around ) against the Mauville gym.
Wattsons Sturdy Magnemite Twaved my cherry G. so I swept him, because Voltorb does not OHKO and Magneton has Magnet Pull.
This is the very definition of S tier, taking down even the biggest enemies without fainting, being able to switch in against every neutral effective enemy and taking low damage while dealing high damage against every foe. Only the delay of Dragon Dance for Crunch was a downside.
I had Golbat evolve at Level 23 around Fiery Path every time without anything apart from Soothe Bell.
Caught Zubat on Level 12, had it in against Brawly and May on Rt 110 but not against Wattson. I backtracked once to Granite Cave but didn't explore much else, no grinding involved but also no fainting.
Tbh I was very surprised when this first happened and I think that happiness was changed somehow, it´s just very unusual to happen that smoothly. Step count should be not far away from 1000 even with the bikes, level gain of 11 is quite low as well...
Now to sum it up: It might be very possible to reach required happiness with your starter when you equip Soothe Bell(no favouritism, you get one so you can use it). But I don´t think this will influence Treecko very much, its much more important for Torchic and Mudkip to get strong elemental STAB early, at least before the fight on the volcano.
Also I used Torchic, with soft resetting for good nature and stats(20/12/10/13/9/10, naughty), but it had a modest early game and doesn't get excellent for a long time. It just lacks bulk and speed to survive against Wattson, the team boss, Flannery or Norman(no Blaziken yet or you are severely overleveled). Then you get Megachick which is cool but has a difficult time against flying, psychic and water gym, contributes everywhere but not in an excellent way. It only excels in the Elite Four, but I would´t call this struggling performance S tier. Hoenn has never been a great game for Fire or Fighting types and chick is both... Mine was high B tier.
Edit: I would always fish for a lv. 15 Magikarp which needs around 27 encounters to get with 75% certainty, those five extra minutes are worth it if you don't want to grind. Or you can always skip the advantage against Flannery and Norman and catch it on Lv 25.
I even had fun with Bulldoze Gyarados(needed some grinding to get to lv 20 from lv 18 so I fought all trainer around ) against the Mauville gym.
Wattsons Sturdy Magnemite Twaved my cherry G. so I swept him, because Voltorb does not OHKO and Magneton has Magnet Pull.
This is the very definition of S tier, taking down even the biggest enemies without fainting, being able to switch in against every neutral effective enemy and taking low damage while dealing high damage against every foe. Only the delay of Dragon Dance for Crunch was a downside.
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I have done a bit of research from several online sources to try and put this happiness pledge thing to bed.
The starters and Zubat all start with a Base happiness of 70. For Golbat to evolve, its happiness needs to exceed 220 (this is going to be irrelevant and is there to show how easy it is to evolve Golbat). For the Pledges to be taught, the mon from what I can gather (not 100% certain) need to have the maximum happiness value of 255. According to Bulbapedia research, Happiness increases by 2 (or 1 if at least 200) for every 128 steps 50% of the time. For levelling up, it is +5 if below 100, +4 if below 200, +3 otherwise. Not going to factor anything else.
So from Level 5, the starter gains a maximum of (assuming no faints) 70 ((6×5)+(10×4)) happiness from leveling up to Level 21 (expected level at Mauville). That means it needs 115 happiness to get the pledges, a minimum of 10,880 ((30×128)+(55×128)) steps to max out happiness. Since however, the counter only goes up 50% of the time, the expected number of steps balloons out to 21,760 before you get access to the appropriate pledge, and there is no way you are going to complete that many steps from the beginning of the game to Mauville unless you screw around with DexNav.
So yeah, I would definitely discount pledges first time in Mauville for starters because the amount of steps required is too high on average to get to the required level in an efficient run.
Soothe Bell? It raises happiness boosts by 1.5× floored so it has no effect on steps when happiness rises above 200 and the gain is too small to worry.
While I regret ever adding to the subject of the pledges, exactly who are they supposed to benefit at the time?
When you get to Mauville, Combusken and Marshtomp are better off using their corresponding secondary STAB (fighting and ground) and I think Treecko/Grovyle has been talked to death that Grass Pledge will hardly change his tiering status (and might be better off holding for Giga Drain anyway). Grass doesn't become that good of a STAB move in-game until final third (even with Team Aqua, since they only seldom use Carvanha and Sharpedo), where you will definitely have Grass Pledge or better for (likely Leaf Storm).
Marshtomp might like Water Pledge for Flannery, but I think you would definitely have enough happiness by her gym to get it. And if not you still have Mud Shot or Bulldoze (or Dig).
Case closed.
To move the conversation forward, here's my experiences with the rest of my team: (Swampert, Roserade, Exploud, Magnezone, Altaria, Machamp)
When you get to Mauville, Combusken and Marshtomp are better off using their corresponding secondary STAB (fighting and ground) and I think Treecko/Grovyle has been talked to death that Grass Pledge will hardly change his tiering status (and might be better off holding for Giga Drain anyway). Grass doesn't become that good of a STAB move in-game until final third (even with Team Aqua, since they only seldom use Carvanha and Sharpedo), where you will definitely have Grass Pledge or better for (likely Leaf Storm).
Marshtomp might like Water Pledge for Flannery, but I think you would definitely have enough happiness by her gym to get it. And if not you still have Mud Shot or Bulldoze (or Dig).
Case closed.
To move the conversation forward, here's my experiences with the rest of my team: (Swampert, Roserade, Exploud, Magnezone, Altaria, Machamp)
Swampert & Magnezone have been covered. They're wonderful. S tier. Moving on.
Roserade - She's wonderful... with DexNav considered. Without it she's not quite up to snuff with her X/Y counterparts (wish we got Budew and her 3 flawless IV's...). But she's still one of the best grass types and actually has a consistent and useable movepool from start to finish and can rely on her poison STAB while waiting for the water-heavy third act to shine. Evolution and eviolite help, but they are hard to find or come late. B tier.
Exploud - is sooooo much better in the remake than the original why aren't we talking about it? STAB Boomburst with the silk scarf will wreck anything that doesn't resist it, but Exploud's coverage is great (Bite/Crunch, Overheat, Surf, Shadow Ball, the 'fangs). Since it only really needs Boomburst and 2 coverage moves, it's easy to fit an HM utility on it without lamenting the loss of a moveslot. Whismur is underwhelming and takes a while to evolve, and they bumped Uproar up a few levels, but I found Echoed Voice to be pretty fair for getting you to Boomburst (it's like a pseudo-moxie, you two-shot the first 'mon and then one-shot the rest of the team). Easy A tier, S if you're generous.
Altaria - she's a very pretty load until you get her evolved and have the Altarite. Then she's pretty awesome. STAB fairy Return is great, but it takes a while to get it (I used Secret Power until then, which was an okay substitute). Pretty good coverage, but her dragon STAB is pretty useless for most of the game. C tier, but just for her awesome finale.
Machamp - Comes just a hair later then you want (for Wattson) and needs a trade evolution. Puts him in contention with Makuhita who comes earlier and evolves earlier, but let's not compare the two. Bulldoze, Low Sweep, Knock-off, and Rock tomb form a pretty cool combo to get you through the mid-game. Mine had No-guard which meant I could go TM crazy and throw Stone Edge's and Cross-chop/Dynamic-punch like there's no tomorrow. Gym coverage is hit and miss, half he excels the others he don't (but great on the evil team's dark-types). Not bad, just a B tier.
Roserade - She's wonderful... with DexNav considered. Without it she's not quite up to snuff with her X/Y counterparts (wish we got Budew and her 3 flawless IV's...). But she's still one of the best grass types and actually has a consistent and useable movepool from start to finish and can rely on her poison STAB while waiting for the water-heavy third act to shine. Evolution and eviolite help, but they are hard to find or come late. B tier.
Exploud - is sooooo much better in the remake than the original why aren't we talking about it? STAB Boomburst with the silk scarf will wreck anything that doesn't resist it, but Exploud's coverage is great (Bite/Crunch, Overheat, Surf, Shadow Ball, the 'fangs). Since it only really needs Boomburst and 2 coverage moves, it's easy to fit an HM utility on it without lamenting the loss of a moveslot. Whismur is underwhelming and takes a while to evolve, and they bumped Uproar up a few levels, but I found Echoed Voice to be pretty fair for getting you to Boomburst (it's like a pseudo-moxie, you two-shot the first 'mon and then one-shot the rest of the team). Easy A tier, S if you're generous.
Altaria - she's a very pretty load until you get her evolved and have the Altarite. Then she's pretty awesome. STAB fairy Return is great, but it takes a while to get it (I used Secret Power until then, which was an okay substitute). Pretty good coverage, but her dragon STAB is pretty useless for most of the game. C tier, but just for her awesome finale.
Machamp - Comes just a hair later then you want (for Wattson) and needs a trade evolution. Puts him in contention with Makuhita who comes earlier and evolves earlier, but let's not compare the two. Bulldoze, Low Sweep, Knock-off, and Rock tomb form a pretty cool combo to get you through the mid-game. Mine had No-guard which meant I could go TM crazy and throw Stone Edge's and Cross-chop/Dynamic-punch like there's no tomorrow. Gym coverage is hit and miss, half he excels the others he don't (but great on the evil team's dark-types). Not bad, just a B tier.
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I think that if only Mudkip Torchic Zam and Lati@s were S tier and everyone else dropped nobody would complain about Treecko being A tbh. I think we should move this away from Treecko and towards those other S tier mons that shouldn't be...
I unfortunately don't have time to post properly nor update as I'm on mobile rn, but I posted earlier that Ralts (Gardevoir) will be dropping to A and after this discussion Lotad will too. Magnemite and Marill are 100% S-Rank imo. This tier list isn't as harsh with S-Rank as XY, because personally I think XY was too harsh with that cutoff which made some things A-Rank which were definitely better than other things there. However, I would say Gardevoir and Lotad are high A at this stage.
Furthermore, I posted before that Treecko will stay A-Rank but I will update this with the pledge moves do not count for this tier list on your first visit to Mauville. The pledge moves only help Treecko anyway, who isn't shifting tier placements.
Furthermore, I posted before that Treecko will stay A-Rank but I will update this with the pledge moves do not count for this tier list on your first visit to Mauville. The pledge moves only help Treecko anyway, who isn't shifting tier placements.
An unnecessary detour that would prevent it from being S.
To be fair I had strict criticism against Pokemon like Honedge in S for XY for being way too goddamn slow but somehow it still remains there. I may have set the bar too low but honestly if Honedge remains S in XY - I feel Marill is pretty close, if not S tier, as well. Unless this changed last time I checked of course.
My criticism for staying out of S for Marill would ride on its poor Speed. It hits like a nuke but sometimes the nuke can only 2HKO and faster Pokemon usually can sweep more effectively anyway.
(Im not calling out IAR in any way by the way - but I want to show how critical I can be with some Pokemon).
My criticism for staying out of S for Marill would ride on its poor Speed. It hits like a nuke but sometimes the nuke can only 2HKO and faster Pokemon usually can sweep more effectively anyway.
(Im not calling out IAR in any way by the way - but I want to show how critical I can be with some Pokemon).
This conversation brings up a point that's been nagging at me for a while, what exactly are our expectations for the in-game player used to craft this tiering list? Are we assuming a party of 3-4 with the rest being HM slaves like previous generations or is my rhetoric outdated? Are they hitting every trainer for cash and exp or are they skipping through as much as they can as fast as they can? Do they skip Sea Mauville, Pacifilog, Route 123, and most of the ocean due to lack of story anchors? I know we say "efficiency" but it seems we disagree on what that entails exactly.
I know the DexNav and ExpShare are out, but that's about all I know. And these things do make a difference, since leveling 3 pokemon (or one) only will quickly outpace the trainer levels while keeping a full party of 6 might curb you under or just enough. But if you are skipping whatever you can, then even a solo run might suffer in level gain...
I just think that re-establishing our ground rules might cut down on our disagreements, and allow better discussion than "well my run went like this, but I'm a completionist/speed-runner/newbie/big fan of dragons/a goldfish on twitch/etc."
Edit: the goldfish isn't an insult, there's actually a fish plays pokemon run going on.
I know the DexNav and ExpShare are out, but that's about all I know. And these things do make a difference, since leveling 3 pokemon (or one) only will quickly outpace the trainer levels while keeping a full party of 6 might curb you under or just enough. But if you are skipping whatever you can, then even a solo run might suffer in level gain...
I just think that re-establishing our ground rules might cut down on our disagreements, and allow better discussion than "well my run went like this, but I'm a completionist/speed-runner/newbie/big fan of dragons/a goldfish on twitch/etc."
Edit: the goldfish isn't an insult, there's actually a fish plays pokemon run going on.
This is also my concern with this tiering list, for example, I cringe for people saying that needed Megavolution makes a Pokemon better...for me, it makes it much worse, and that is simply due to SPEED
This also counts for Sword Dance etc. why SD if you can easily use X Items? With faster animations and more move options for your Pokemon.
And I know why I got the Pledge move early: I did PokeAmi like 5 Mins with Mudkip...Hapiness raising in Gen 6 is really easy
With animations off, Swords Dance takes about the same amount of time as using an X-Item (SD is slightly faster actually) and gives +2 Atk rather than +1. Its advantages should be obvious.
Err, that wasn't the point I was trying to make exactly but I can see you point none the less. Personally I don't see a couple second magical girl tranformation really getting in the way, unless you are going for a metroid-style timed run.
Is efficiency getting to the pokemon league and clearing it the fastest? But then you've still got lots of skipped content that you will probably go back for later, which just means a larger post-game. Or is this a speed-run? But then why bother having 6 pokemon, or even using anyone other than the best starter. And why bother with trainer level averages if you will be out-pacing them after the first two gyms?
These questions don't necessarily reflect my views on the subject, but I think are important to ask for defining the tier list. While we could continue with loose interpretations, and probably still make a solid tier guide out of it, I think it will benefit to take a step back to improve the foundation: what do we expect the typical in-game trainer to do?
Is efficiency getting to the pokemon league and clearing it the fastest? But then you've still got lots of skipped content that you will probably go back for later, which just means a larger post-game. Or is this a speed-run? But then why bother having 6 pokemon, or even using anyone other than the best starter. And why bother with trainer level averages if you will be out-pacing them after the first two gyms?
These questions don't necessarily reflect my views on the subject, but I think are important to ask for defining the tier list. While we could continue with loose interpretations, and probably still make a solid tier guide out of it, I think it will benefit to take a step back to improve the foundation: what do we expect the typical in-game trainer to do?
Some stat-boosting moves can either boost stats faster (e.g. Swords Dance) or boost multiple stats at once (e.g. Dragon Dance). Setting up in fewer turns (if you would've aimed for the same boost with X items) means few opposing turns to sit through (and possibly have to recover from). Alternatively if you were only going for a single boost with an X item then a move such as Calm Mind or Bulk Up could reduce damage taken compared to using an X (Sp.) Attack, and in some situations Dragon Dance will allow the user to outspeed an opponent that X Attack wouldn't have. How often any of this is relevant however will depend on individual teams and which trainers and Pokémon a given Pokémon is used against.
It also means fewer items to stock up on - post-game it's not hard to have more money than you know what to do with but during the main game purchasable TMs are often expensive for the point at which they're first available (if there are any you wish to buy) and buying fewer items saves a small bit of time on shopping trips. I'm also pretty certain that only certain marts sell X items, meaning potential additional backtracking if you need to restock (I haven't bought X items recently so please correct me if my recollection is incorrect). Again how much this matters will depend on the team, when and how often stats boosts are required, etc.
I'm not claiming stat-boosting moves are automatically superior to X items since they obviously have some disadvantages too (for example stat-boosting moves take up a move slot that could potentially be used for better coverage), I'm just presenting some advantages to stat-booting moves.
*Edit* Partially Greninja-ed.
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Believe it or not, you can get it as early as Route 110; just catch an Oddish (or another SSer) and have it use Sweet Scent and boom, a horde of level 6 Magnemite. So there is no detours and whatnot involved and this is very relevant with regards to its tiering.
Unless of course, something is stopping you from facing hordes so early in the game.
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