ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

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Colonel M

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Hang on, why is Soaring being considered in this at all? From a mechanics perspective it has absolutely nothing to do with Lati@s; you could trade away both Latios and Latiosite and you'd still be able to soar. I don't understand why this is included in an argument for Lati@s.
The reason I consider Lati@s S-rank is because it's literally a free gift you do nothing to obtain, is very fast, very powerful and even if it lags behind a few levels due to it being a low Exp gain you can always Mega Evolve to make up for it. The only possible problem is movepool, but even then Dragonbreath, Mist Ball/Luster Purge and Surf served me fine. It's literally a free powerhouse with a free Mega Stone, I can't see it going anywhere below S.
I am saying - if Soaring is considered it should not.

Lati@s is a free gift, but the problem is that even Pokemon like Castform are a free gift and they don't really contribute much. For Lati@s, it's available from gyms 6-8, the Elite 4, and then Team Magma / Aqua phases. Let's actually break down Lati@s's contributions throughout the period that they exist to endgame:

- Lati@s have major issues with Mightyenas that Team Magma / Aqua always pack. Magma and Aqua's key Pokemon (Grimer / Koffing and Carvanha / Numel) don't really pose much of a threat to the Lati@s (Muk can maybe survive MLatias Mist Ball I guess which could suck facing a STAB Gunk Shot afterwards). Golbat / Crobat aren't much of an issue for Lati@s honestly. So for Team Magma / Aqua Lati@s contributes well.
- Winona only really fears Lati@s if they stack Charge Beam after Charge Beam. Swellow may be faster than Lati@s, which can be a minor headache since it means taking damage throughout the process. You also won't OHKO Skarmory which kind of sucks too. They contribute okay, but they don't really stand out.
- Tate and Liza is about evenish. I wouldn't really say they're great but not bad here either. Shadow Ball / Grass Knot will do the trick against them. At least they resist almost everything thrown at them (barirng Solrock Rock Slide but that does middling damage).
- Charge Beam / Calm Mind / Grass Knot will wipe Wallace clean.

The Elite 4 poses nothing but problems for Lati@s though. Sidney, Phoebe, and Glacia almost leave no opportunity to really set up for Lati@s to sweep through. Lati@s can maybe pick off a Pokemon or two here and there, but that isn't really saying much. Drake is so-so - I think Mega Latias can set up on Altaria but I'm not sure. Steven isn't even friendly to Lati@s.

The main thing is they can probably carry you from when they join to about Wallace. But they just don't crush in the same way Kyogre and Groudon do. Their availability is also smaller than Mudkip and Torchic as examples. Ultimately the problem is that Lati@s can carry you through the midgame with the gyms and Team Magma / Aqua, but their late game is very non-existent. I feel that if the Lati@s had an actual Elite 4 presence it would solidify their slots in S Tier. As it currently stands, though, I'm really shaky on allowing Lati@s a free pass when they don't really bring that much of a benefit to the table.
 
The problem with Lati@s is without its Mega, its weak movepool struggles to get KOs. Even with an early Mega, there are so many other possible Megas that I would consider leaning on its Mega to be an opportunity cost.
 
The problem with Lati@s is without its Mega, its weak movepool struggles to get KOs. Even with an early Mega, there are so many other possible Megas that I would consider leaning on its Mega to be an opportunity cost.
Does opportunity cost even exist in-game? I used like three Megas - Sceptile, Latios and Gardevoir - and considering I was just coming up against trainers with 1-3 Pokémon the whole time I just mega evolved whatever I was using. You never really need to switch; just hit and hit hard.
 
The opportunity cost is a thing only in gym / E4 battles and also depending on who else you put in a team. Don't forget that the Lati are legendaries and their bases are far higher than whatever other Megas you may have in your party. So in a party of Latios, Sceptile and Mawile, it will be the latter two who will suffer the most if somebody else mega-evolves. Latios still has the same typing, comparable offence and bulk.

And frankly, I'm pretty tired of seeing all the talk about Lati's "non-existent E4 performance". Put up a screen, use Calm Mind a few times and just sweep - Sidney with coverage moves, Phoebe with Shadow Ball, Glacia with Grass Knot/Shadow Ball, Drake with Dragon Pulse. Even if you're not sweeping, coming in and putting up a screen and/or dropping a Draco Meteor nuke has enormous value. Not quite sure how DD variants would do; probably not nearly as good.
 
The opportunity cost is a thing only in gym / E4 battles and also depending on who else you put in a team. Don't forget that the Lati are legendaries and their bases are far higher than whatever other Megas you may have in your party. So in a party of Latios, Sceptile and Mawile, it will be the latter two who will suffer the most if somebody else mega-evolves. Latios still has the same typing, comparable offence and bulk.

And frankly, I'm pretty tired of seeing all the talk about Lati's "non-existent E4 performance". Put up a screen, use Calm Mind a few times and just sweep - Sidney with coverage moves, Phoebe with Shadow Ball, Glacia with Grass Knot/Shadow Ball, Drake with Dragon Pulse. Even if you're not sweeping, coming in and putting up a screen and/or dropping a Draco Meteor nuke has enormous value. Not quite sure how DD variants would do; probably not nearly as good.
You are very right about the great base stats and especially about the lesser reliance on Mega Evolution compared to many other top tier Pokemon.

The Elite 4 performance though is just not great. You won´t have Draco Meteor in any kind of run that is similar to those you described in your previous posts.
Many foes will outspeed you if underleveled (remember they have good IV sets) and even those that don´t do pose problems:

Sydneys Pokemon are often not OHKOed by STAB dragon moves, even though they are frail, so you will not sweep them, Phioebes Pokemon are too bulky and have annoying tools to make it matter that you do not OHKO them, Glacia has the great setup opportunity with the weak first Glalie, but this is nothing special for Lati@s, it then might face evasion and confusion hax from Froslass to make this still a shaky matchup,

It´s not about saying they are bad, but S tier requires more than not being bad. They are just outperformed by some Pokemon that have a more advantageous typing.
I would even go so far, that they are outmatched by a Magikarp that you catch before the Souther Island arc, which we have agreed to put into A tier as well. Getting into A tier is still very respectable!
 

Colonel M

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You definitely cannot set up on the first of Phoebe's Pokemon - Curse makes that strategy difficult without perfect timing of Reflect and Recover with confusion getting in the way. Glalie can also be a nuisance simply because you also might have to stall out a turn or few for Light Screen.

Nothing is glorifying about its matchups here. It can try setting up on Altaria to at least beat Drake (this one is believable) but the other three would likely inhibit you with other circumstances like confusion and / or curse. Glalie's is more of just potential annoyance from Light Screen for a while (Def drops could suck too from Crunch).

There is also no chance in hell of getting Dragon Pulse without a stupid amount of grinding. You get the move at Level 56. And dont say Heart Scale - it was removed of an option to relearn in ORAS:

http://serebii.net/pokedex-xy/380.shtml
http://serebii.net/pokedex-xy/381.shtml
 
Yeah you're definitely right about that; I was just playing Platinum and that caused me to think Dragon Pulse was a lategame TM in this one; it's Dragon Claw, of course.

Your Lati can still sweep Drake assuming you've got Ice Beam and if you have Latios, Dragon Dance can be employed to both outspeed Salamence (to whom a Calm Mind can easily lose at a level disadvantage) and damage everything super-effectively with Dragon Claw. You can just throw a Draco Meteor at Kingdra too (who is otherwise kinda hard to deal with).

hard:

Sweeping does imply setting up beforehand (unless you're Primal Groudon/Kyogre in which case there's no need), and the Lati have two ways (well, Latios does have a second one in DD) of accomplishing that.

If the targets are too bulky (such as Phoebe's Dusclops/noir), that's why you put up a screen against a mon whom you can tank easily enough, use a few Calm Mind and then proceed to sweep with Shadow Ball. And if it's Latias you're using (with no DD access), then that 150 special defence gives you some absurd bulk against such questionable "offensive prowess" like Banette using Shadow Ball.

I don't really understand your complaint about the Lati being "too slow" all of a sudden? Here are the speed "tiers" of the mons presently in S-tier:

120 - Alakazam (150)
110 - Lati@s
81 - Gyarados
80 - Blaziken (100)
60 - Swampert (70)
50 - Azumarill

The Lati are only slower than Alakazam, and are faster untransformed than 3 other residents of S-tier are AFTER transformation. Just to have more good Pokemon to compare to, let's grab the A-tier ones, some of whom have been seriously considered for S-tier too:

120 - Sceptile (145)
105 - Manectric (135)
95 - Sharpedo
90 - Groudon / Kyogre / Zangoose
85 - Heracross (75)
80 - Medicham (100) / Gardevoir (100)
75 - Absol (115)
70 - Magneton / Breloom
65 - Pelipper
55 - Crawdaunt
50 - Hariyama / Mawile
40 - Camerupt

The Lati are only slower than Sceptile untransformed, and lose to Mega Manectric and Mega Absol when those two transform as well. So who's having speed troubles in the E4?

But the more terrifying thought that this list might inspire, do we want Pelipper in the same tier as Groudon and Kyogre? Numel, Corphish and Carvanha all need to drop, as well (it's long due IMHO), possibly Shroomish too.
 
It´s not about bad speed Lucchini, 110 is good. Just in combination with an unfavorable typing and quite fast Pokemon in the Elite 4 the speed is worth much less, if you expect to be underleveled. I would say the same about Alakazam btw, psychic typing is just bad in the endgame.
Also again it is unlikely that you get Draco Meteor after 15-20 level ups, this will require quite some happiness grinding, so let´s not assume it right away.

I agree that the Pokemon you listed should drop. Even the utility that some of them give do not really add to a performance that is on par with the other A tier members. Pokemon like Numel

Most of all I want Gyarados to rise to S. It is that good! Catch it with the Super Rod asap and evolve after Southern Island to have a beast as soon as you reach Fortree. The typing is just so helpful from this point on, I have not seen any Pokemon with comparable performance in my runs.
 
Here are E4 speed tiers for reference:

110 - Froslass / Metagross
100 - Flygon / Salamence
95 - Sharpedo
85 - Kingdra
80 - Shiftry / Glalie / Altaria
75 - Absol / Claydol
70 - Mightyena / Skarmory
65 - Banette / Walrein
55 - Cacturne
50 - Sableye / Aggron
45 - Dusknoir / Armaldo
43 - Cradily
25 - Dusclops

The general trend among E4 Pokemon is "middling speed" so the Pokemon who WILL have worse-than-expected matchups at a lower level would also be ones with middling speed, such as Swampert, Magneton and also the likes of Heracross and untransformed Blaziken.

Lati@s will likely fail to outspeed Froslass, Metagross, probably also the Flygons and Salamence and, if you're unlucky, Sharpedo as well (only DD Latios could feasibly overcome this problem). You should outspeed everybody else, which allows you to come in and land the first blow, which could well be decisive.

Taking a hit isn't such a problem for Lati@s with their bulk as it is for other Pokemon in the higher tiers, and screens / Calm Mind help reduce the damage, especially on the special side. Most importantly, good offence and speed allows you to avoid taking unnecessary damage, and moves like Shadow Ball, Grass Knot and Ice Beam grant just the right coverage against the E4 threats.

I'd say Alakazam is doing even better, with higher special attack and speed than Lati@s, not to mention invaluable Dazzling Gleam access. It'll surely be outspeeding everything, too.

edit: and we have already put Magikarp into S-tier (despite my protesting). I should present my case why it needs to return to A-tier sometime later.
 
Here are E4 speed tiers for reference:

110 - Froslass / Metagross
100 - Flygon / Salamence
95 - Sharpedo
85 - Kingdra
80 - Shiftry / Glalie / Altaria
75 - Absol / Claydol
70 - Mightyena / Skarmory
65 - Banette / Walrein
55 - Cacturne
50 - Sableye / Aggron
45 - Dusknoir / Armaldo
43 - Cradily
25 - Dusclops

The general trend among E4 Pokemon is "middling speed" so the Pokemon who WILL have worse-than-expected matchups at a lower level would also be ones with middling speed, such as Swampert, Magneton and also the likes of Heracross and untransformed Blaziken.

Lati@s will likely fail to outspeed Froslass, Metagross, probably also the Flygons and Salamence and, if you're unlucky, Sharpedo as well (only DD Latios could feasibly overcome this problem). You should outspeed everybody else, which allows you to come in and land the first blow, which could well be decisive.
Shouldn't you be outspeeding all of them because the AI pokemon have no EVs, while your Latios will (not to mention it has a speed stat of 110, which equals the highest speed stat of all e4 pokemon)? Or was that changed with ORAS?
 

Colonel M

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I would assume Lati@s should have the upper hand on the base 90s. It is extremely likely to have a 31 in Speed IV and you have potential EVs. Though the E4 foes have 25/30 for IVs there are no EVs on them.

Base 100s may be an issue, but again Drake is a rather easy trainer for Mega Lati@s to set up against. You could apply an X Speed and just nullify the Speed problem too.
 
Well than anything bulky enough to set up against the E4 should be considered S tier by default?
I´m not sure that this was the consens a few pages ago. Remember that the reliance on setup also raises the issue of luck, crits, unfortunate damage rolls and even status will effect you more often, if you spend more turns in battle.
Also in game time seemed to bother a lot of you during the last weeks, so needing to set up screens and boost speed and attack does limit the awesomeness of Lati@s. (which would still be ranked high if placed in A)

If we start to consider getting IceBeam, happiness raising and so on effective again (minds may change, thats totally human) some other placements might need to be seen less harsh. At this point it´s really all about how strict we want to be about in game time, it seems.
I think that it is very helpful to get a common baseline for what we want to consider effective to avoid weird double standards when the descriptions get written.
 
Well than anything bulky enough to set up against the E4 should be considered S tier by default?
Show me where somebody said that Lati@s's bulk and/or ability to set up against the E4 is the reason why it's in S-tier right now. You might also find that the present S-tier dwellers don't particularly excel at setup - I've brought up Swampert's failure to set up before, and the same applies to Azumarill because of how slow it is. In contrast, the lower tiers feature mons who rely on setup to succeed - Zangoose, Heracross, Pinsir...

I should also note that I don't share Colonel M's view on X items. I believe we only okayed them under the condition that mons excessively relying on them to succeed ought to be punished for it whereas those capable of setting up naturally are to be held in higher regard. Compared to, say, Zangoose or Heracross, the Lati are a lot less demanding of X items. They can also reach OHKO potential naturally, unlike Swampert in the same tier, and outspeed a very large portion of the E4 unlike Azumarill - both in the same tier presently.

Also in game time seemed to bother a lot of you during the last weeks, so needing to set up screens and boost speed and attack does limit the awesomeness of Lati@s. (which would still be ranked high if placed in A)
'Awesomeness' (I would prefer to use some more descriptive terms myself) needs to be reflected accurately on the list.

I do still believe the tier list does not cover speedrun scenarios and besides, speedrunning does involve the usage of Lati@s anyway.

Nobody's suggesting constant usage of screens as the go-to strategy for Lati users. If you absolutely need to set up, the screens help neutralise the opponent's setup folder (plentiful among leads in this game). Calm Mind + super-effective attack + DM nuke will still do just fine, and occasionally your teammates will like the support the screens add in those tough last parts of the game.

If we start to consider getting IceBeam, happiness raising and so on effective again (minds may change, thats totally human) some other placements might need to be seen less harsh. At this point it´s really all about how strict we want to be about in game time, it seems.
I think that it is very helpful to get a common baseline for what we want to consider effective to avoid weird double standards when the descriptions get written.
You get Lati@s for absolutely free, at a fairly high level, with its own mega stone that you needn't travel anywhere to get (Gyarados's, Heracross's and Pinsir's stones all come at some cost in terms of time) - surely it's not too much to ask for the player to go and get that Ice Beam TM? The reason why it's been mentioned is that the absence of Ice Beam can be remedied for other users - Blizzard for many of the water-types, Dazzling Gleam for Tentacruel and some others, but Lati are forced to either go for the special attack drop by using Draco Meteor or use the weaker attack stat and one not boosted by Calm Mind at that (if choosing Dragon Claw).

You have to move about quite a lot when you get Lati@s, and it's pretty easy to give it a few massages and stat boosters to help it learn Draco Meteor just by endgame when it needs it, because you can fly around shortly and you have so much money that may end up not finding any use. You may not get it instantly as you'd like to, but, for instance, Pinsir doesn't get Thrash, or even its mega stone, immediately either.

With the way our tiers currently look, Lati@s don't seem displaced to me. You could wonder if they should be in the same tier with Abra and Torchic, but the rest of S-tier is definitely up for discussion, too. There's no doubt the Lati are better than most of what's presently in A-tier though (aside from Groudon/Kyogre but comparing anyone to these two is pretty hard anyway because the gap in performance is as big as the gap in availability).
 

Colonel M

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In situations I would view that Lati@s does really need at the least two X Speeds to really get through the Elite 4 reliably (Glacia and Drake). One for each of course.

There are some like Gyarados, for instance, that does reliably set up on just about everything the Elite 4 starts with and just shuts them down with Intimidate and Taunt.
 
You didn´t quite get what I was saying Lucchini.

If the majority decides to accept detours for TMs like IceBeam or ThunderBolt then this needs to be true for every Pokemon we judge, that was my point.
As of now this has not been the case - the majority is still counting such detours as a major reason for downgrading, but this has nothing to do with my personal opinion.

It is not useful to use different standards for different Pokemon, as this would result in a lower quality of the whole ranking system.

Make a point, why you believe a certain amount of detour(at least one TM and some happiness grinding should be around 20-30 min investment) to be useful for every Pokemon on the list and give precise reasoning how your Lati@s made successful sweeps in the E4 by listing level and used resources, otherwise your explanations seem a bit unbelievable after reading about your team being severely under leveled against the E4.
 
Hi, just a little update with this...

There are too many things going on in my life atm for me to have the time to lead this project any more, so however much I don't want to, I'm bowing out. It's not fair to what we've worked on as a community so far for me to hold it up selfishly. If you want to take things over, PM me, and I'll decide who should take things over. I'll probably talk to the OI mods about it too.

I'll still probably try and help with the discussion and things, but I can't be in charge any more. It's gutting, but this was a great experience for me (first proper I've run) so thanks to everyone who's taken part in it and helped me along the way! n_n
 

DHR-107

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Colonel M

Would you like to take this over? Either start up a new thread and work from there (which will probably be easier), or continue here?
 

Colonel M

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So long as people agree I can take over. I'll start a new thread to help make things easier.

Furthermore I would like to thank Celever for contributing to this tier list even with my stubborn qualities. :P

EDIT: New thread is created. DHR-107 if you would like you may seal this one up.
 
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