ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

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DHR-107

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It turns out that the elemental fang Poochyena isn't the only set DexNav encounter. There are a couple others that are triggered to pop up after it, including Fel Stinger Surskit, (which is what I believe Luchini is referring to) and Beat Up Seedot/Teeter Dance Lotad. (I think that's the move)
Those are both the correct moves yes.

I am a little confused as to why they made these mons "forced" encounters (they aren't, they may be fixed but you can easily miss them). The next game I start (which might be in a week or two), I am going to list exactly when these events happen because I think it might be useful information for here or for the walkthrough thread.

Good job on getting this back on track Celever.
 
Because Tropius is the god of HM Slave. Lati@s is a close one.
Yeah it's a great HM slave, but is that really enough to make up for its late join time and terrible stats/typing? At least stuff like Zigzagoon is useful for the early game. I've never valued HM slaves highly TBH, so maybe someone else can chime in.
 
When I said "an update to Air Cutter", I did mean Air Slash, which Masquerain learns at L38 - Beautifly, in contrast, never learns the move.

And touché about Nosepass missing the third gym - brainfarted there. Its bulk is definitely a big deal, though its gym and elite matchups are far from perfect. Its capacity to wall things should raise it a tier above Castform though.

Not sure about Tropius moving down - I think most people here do agree that Carvanha's utility is the reason why it's in A tier. Sharpedo is a whole lot better than Tropius though, even if its frailty limits its usefulness, and its ability to fight higher-levelled things is awful for this very reason.

WRT the fixed encounter Surskit: does it have both Fell Stinger and Bubble or does the former replace the latter? Based on my encounters with DexNav mons I would guess it's the former, but somebody was talking about losing Bubble earlier in this thread so I just wanted to check.
 
WRT the fixed encounter Surskit: does it have both Fell Stinger and Bubble or does the former replace the latter? Based on my encounters with DexNav mons I would guess it's the former, but somebody was talking about losing Bubble earlier in this thread so I just wanted to check.
The dexnav pokemon with an egg move always have their first move replaced, even if they have less than 4 moves. I know this because in my run I got a Zigzagoon that started with only Charm, Growl, and Tail Whip. It was dead weight until I got the TM for Echoed Voice (the first attacking move it could have), and then I could use Charm 3 times and spam Echoed Voice against any physical attacker, which I used against many minor trainers and Roxannne.
 

Colonel M

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How I see it:

- Poochyena proves to remain unchanged.
- Surskit being a forced encounter at least helps with catching a Bubble Surskit.
- Seedot's is a minor buff, though sometimes Bide can out damage Beat Up. Eventually Thief and Feint Attack will outclass Beat Up until about lategame maybe.
- Lotad / Zigzagoon's are (pretty) useless.

I believe these are the only set encounters, though obviously I could be wrong.
 
Not sure about Tropius moving down - I think most people here do agree that Carvanha's utility is the reason why it's in A tier. Sharpedo is a whole lot better than Tropius though, even if its frailty limits its usefulness, and its ability to fight higher-levelled things is awful for this very reason.
Don´t mind about sharks placement for Tropious
I think we hyped Sharpedo a bit, because in the efficient run that everyone seems to assume, we do not need to surf that much after reaching Moosdeep. Maybe we will deal with that later, because its really not living any hit when we assume the under leveling that you talked about in your posts.
Tropious is just an HM slave for me. It cannot even OHKO most water Pokemon with its STAB attacks, that´s really weak. Because of this, in practice its matchups are very poor throughout the lategame.

I agree with Colonel M on the Bonus Egg Moves, they really add very little outside of kicking Seedot out of F before evolving.
 
I really believe Kyogre should go up to S-rank It is not available early on in the game like the other S-rank Pokémon, but its sheer usefulness, though only late in the game, is just ridicules. It can easily, solo the 8th gym, victory road and the elite four with just some filler pokemon used for healing. Thunderbolt and Thunder are available as tms early on in the game, giving kyogre all the coverage it needs to sweep through the last portion of the game between ice beam, surf and thunder(bolt). Kyogre is overall amazing for the last part of the game, and coupled with the fact that it is thrown at you, at a level that will likely be higher than the average of your team, if you sped through the game.

A good player will often be able to easily go through the majority of the game while avoiding trainer without finding it troublesome, only to find their team unable to beat the elite four without a hefty amount of X-items. (Everyone who have ever attempted a speed run or just rushed through a game have experienced this). I have not tried this in ORAS jet, as I did level up my team doing the play through of the game, but I've tried on Pokemon Saphire Where my highest level was 37 at the time a captured Kyogre, basically beat the rest of the game with only kyogre.

I don't think I have to talk too much about stats, good speed, bulky, godlike special attack and good attack. In the elite four, the only Pokemon that naturally out speed kyogre is: Sharpedo, Frostlass, Flygon and Salamence. The only Pokemon kyogre does not hit super effectively or neutrally with stab is kingdra.

I'm sorry if this have already been discussed to death, I honestly did not read through every page :I
 
I really believe Kyogre should go up to S-rank It is not available early on in the game like the other S-rank Pokémon, but its sheer usefulness, though only late in the game, is just ridicules. It can easily, solo the 8th gym, victory road and the elite four with just some filler pokemon used for healing. Thunderbolt and Thunder are available as tms early on in the game, giving kyogre all the coverage it needs to sweep through the last portion of the game between ice beam, surf and thunder(bolt). Kyogre is overall amazing for the last part of the game, and coupled with the fact that it is thrown at you, at a level that will likely be higher than the average of your team, if you sped through the game.

A good player will often be able to easily go through the majority of the game while avoiding trainer without finding it troublesome, only to find their team unable to beat the elite four without a hefty amount of X-items. (Everyone who have ever attempted a speed run or just rushed through a game have experienced this). I have not tried this in ORAS jet, as I did level up my team doing the play through of the game, but I've tried on Pokemon Saphire Where my highest level was 37 at the time a captured Kyogre, basically beat the rest of the game with only kyogre.

I don't think I have to talk too much about stats, good speed, bulky, godlike special attack and good attack. In the elite four, the only Pokemon that naturally out speed kyogre is: Sharpedo, Froslass, Flygon and Salamence. The only Pokemon kyogre does not hit super effectively or neutrally with stab is kingdra.

I'm sorry if this have already been discussed to death, I honestly did not read through every page :I
Why would Kyogre ever need Thunderbolt when its ability makes Thunder sure-shot? (P-Kyogre's harsh rain can't be replaced by anything you'll face in-game, and lasts until P-Kyogre leaves battle) The only argument for Groudon and Kyogre being in A-tier currently is because they're so utterly late despite breaking every major battle they're available for in half. To be fair though, their lateness is starting to seem less valid of an argument for them to remain in A and go back to S.
 
Why would Kyogre ever need Thunderbolt when its ability makes Thunder sure-shot? (P-Kyogre's harsh rain can't be replaced by anything you'll face in-game, and lasts until P-Kyogre leaves battle) The only argument for Groudon and Kyogre being in A-tier currently is because they're so utterly late despite breaking every major battle they're available for in half. To be fair though, their lateness is starting to seem less valid of an argument for them to remain in A and go back to S.
Because thunder cost 50000$ while thunderbolt is free, you won't necessarily have that much money.
 
Money is never a problem (maybe before Wattson if everyone wants a new TM), and 30K is a fairly low sum. You do want Thunder for that extra 20 BP since stuff like Walrein can be hard to OHKO.

IMHO the emergence of an argument to move Mega-Hera to S tier is an indication Groudon and Kyogre should've gone them much earlier in this discussion.

Compared to all the lategame legendary additions ingame - Zapdos, Ho-Oh, Azelf, Cobalion, Yveltal/Xerneas - Kyogre/Groudon offer far greater destruction for just one toss of your Master Ball. You needn't even travel anywhere to catch them either (applies to the XY legends too, but they're kinda underwhelming)!

I'll support the cause to raise them to S myself, though I've expressed this viewpoint earlier in the thread already.
 
Changes Made:
Relicanth --> D
Surskit C --> B

More Discussion Needed:
Oddish (Vileplume) C --> B
Wingull A --> B
Sableye D --> C
Psyduck B --> C
Spoink B --> C
Tropius B --> C
Trapinch B --> C/D (discussion on which tier it should move to, not whether it should move or not)
Shuppet C --> B
Bagon D --> E
Nosepass C --> D
Shroomish A --> B
Heracross A --> S
Kyogre A --> S
Groudon A --> S
Relicanth D --> E
 
Spoink B --> C

I used Grumpig in Emerald once, it's basically a slightly bulky Psychic type which synergized great with the Calm Mind TM to set up with. Spoink has higher stats than Kirlia nearly all around, so it was "the Psychic pokemon for lazy people" who didn't like grinding with deadweight until Gardevoir.

But that being said, times have changed and Spoink got nothing in return, while Gardevoir and Alakazam both have tons more toys to play with (not that we directly compare pokemon). In fact, Grumpig got WORSE due to it's best stabs being pushed further out to level 52 Psychic (44 for Spoink, 42 for Grumpig's Psyshock. This is in comparison to Grumpig's original Psychic at level 37).

It can still work, but losing the "grab and go" functionality with the movepool level inflation was its one claim over Alakazam or Gardevoir. Now you've got to put in effort just to get the old RSE Grumpig back with zero new toys in Gen 6.

Spoink for C-tier. That won't do pig, that won't do.
 

DHR-107

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You cannot still be wanting Heracross in S. Is it really that impressive in the tiny time you have it? I am honestly not so sure...

In my team so far (with the three I can give opinions on), Blaziken is wrecking face as expected, and now that I have Slaking, he appears to be destroying every single thing he comes across. I just wish he had a better STAB move over Slash...
 
I do think celever is not entirely wrong in arguing that the Lati being in S is a temptation to try to include Heracross in the same tier.

This is Latis' lead in availability over Hera:
- Route 118
- Route 119
- Winona's gym
- Route 120 & 121, possible backtracking to Route 118 which itself includes several routes (could be done later)

That's really not a whole lot, but let's not forget that in addition to this small lead (which is not so small anymore when you try to remember how much more time we've got until the end of the game), the Lati needn't be caught, and can mega-evolve right off the bat, whereas Heracross only evolves post-Dive - after the 7th gym. Slaving is also kind of a big deal because out-of-battle utility is supposed to matter on this list, and it makes sense that the Lati are separated by at least one tier from Carvanha - I'd say two tiers of difference would be warranted.

Heracross's advantage over the Lati, however, is hard to ignore - it actually has powerful and reliable STAB moves very early and is one of the hardest hitters in the game alongside Slaking, Mega Blaziken / Pinsir / Sceptile, probably even comparable to Groudon/Kyogre. It's also not very fast when it mega evolves, on the other hand, and slower than the aforementioned mons.

EDIT: Also, Strength seems to do the job as Slaking's best non-Giga Impact move, and you should get access to Giga Impact shortly after he evolves. Give it a Silk Scarf and just OHKO things with Strength or Giga Impact dependong on how bulky they are.
 
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Colonel M

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Not really sure on S Hera myself. Hera has decent moves when it arrives (Brick Break, then Pin Missile at 31) but Heracross also has moments that leave it mediocre - Team Magma and Team Aqua kind of plague Heracross' s fun - though it has ways to bypass it some opponents like Golbat arent that kind to Hera. This is especially true for Magma if they pack Camerupts - Numels might be KOed by Bulldoze but I cannot quite calc it atm. Also Koffing and Weezing are sort of annoying for Heracross since Bulldoze doesnt affect them and Heracross' s best moves are either Strength or Stone Edge.

Something I want to seen done with Heracross was something IOS brought up earlier with Tailow. Guts boosted Heracross at least makes Heracross sound more likely for S since Facade will do a good chunk of damage while Poisoned.

It isnt too late for me. If wanted I will pick up Heracross and try it out.
 
Heracross's attack is more than high enough to KO Numels with Dig, and it's wonderful in AS against the Carvanha line.

While Guts is a good ability (a nuisance to constantly activate manually though), I think Facade is praised too much. Poisoned Heracross with Guts can tear into things with his regular STAB moves and coverage options. Swellow might be interested in using Brave Bird more often than Facade too, when penetrating a flying-type weakness is topical, even if Facade is more powerful when dealing neutral damage (especially considering you don't get a Sky Plate until after gym 7).
 

Colonel M

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The main perk with Facade is that it bypasses Heracross' s issue against Koffing / Weezing a lot better. Still Guts boosted Heracross might be comparable to Kyogre / Groudon. I cant necessarily guarantee it at this point. Something to remember with Kyogre and Groudon is that, while thet arrive later than Heracross, there is almost 0 investment necessary for them (just a few TMs).
 
Well, you usually don't stay in against Koffing/Weezing if you're not running a powerful special attack (like Swampert with Surf), do you? Now that I mention it, Pinsir with Mold Breaker can hurt these two using Dig/Earthquake. It's honestly not such a big deal though, considering that these two don't exactly appear often enough for specific tier decisions to be taken based on how well they are fought.

I gotta say though, comparing Heracross to the uber two is rushing it a bit, as we should first decide: a) whether Groudon and Kyogre are going up to S, b) whether Heracross really needs to be distinguished from the uncannily similar (in power) Pinsir at all.

And let's not forget that activating Guts manually has an opportunity cost itself. You might as well just use Bulk Up in every battle where it's necessary for the same attack boost (albeit without doubling Facade's power), but I know I'd rather just keep Heracross away from the things it doesn't OHKO - the list is rather short, what with its nuke of a mega evolution.

If Guts+Facade isn't pushing Taillow into A even, and Taillow has better availability to boot (but far poorer coverage), this gimmick can't be a convincing argument to put Heracross into S. I do think that even with accidental triggers of Guts only (not just by poison but paralysis as well) and the early access to Brave Bird make Taillow in A convincing even without the weird manual Guts gymnastics.

The fact we're talking about Hera in S based on supposed similarity to the Lati at all could offer additional food for thought on whether the Lati should still stay in S. But personally I think Mudkip is so similar to Treecko (i.e. neither really impresses and both have difficulty setting up, though for entirely different reasons), and if Mawile and Magnemite aren't making it to tier S, nor should Mudkip stay there. And then you never know, maybe Marill is next to drop.

Speaking of Azumarill, the possibility of not hitting L46, when Superpower is learnt, until the end of the game is very real - Azumarill's experience group makes it hard to miss should your playstyle involve using everybody liberally and not keeping levels even at all times. Superpower is kind of a big deal for Glacia and Steven.
 
Well, you usually don't stay in against Koffing/Weezing if you're not running a powerful special attack (like Swampert with Surf), do you? Now that I mention it, Pinsir with Mold Breaker can hurt these two using Dig/Earthquake. It's honestly not such a big deal though, considering that these two don't exactly appear often enough for specific tier decisions to be taken based on how well they are fought.

I gotta say though, comparing Heracross to the uber two is rushing it a bit, as we should first decide: a) whether Groudon and Kyogre are going up to S, b) whether Heracross really needs to be distinguished from the uncannily similar (in power) Pinsir at all.

And let's not forget that activating Guts manually has an opportunity cost itself. You might as well just use Bulk Up in every battle where it's necessary for the same attack boost (albeit without doubling Facade's power), but I know I'd rather just keep Heracross away from the things it doesn't OHKO - the list is rather short, what with its nuke of a mega evolution.

If Guts+Facade isn't pushing Taillow into A even, and Taillow has better availability to boot (but far poorer coverage), this gimmick can't be a convincing argument to put Heracross into S. I do think that even with accidental triggers of Guts only (not just by poison but paralysis as well) and the early access to Brave Bird make Taillow in A convincing even without the weird manual Guts gymnastics.

The fact we're talking about Hera in S based on supposed similarity to the Lati at all could offer additional food for thought on whether the Lati should still stay in S. But personally I think Mudkip is so similar to Treecko (i.e. neither really impresses and both have difficulty setting up, though for entirely different reasons), and if Mawile and Magnemite aren't making it to tier S, nor should Mudkip stay there. And then you never know, maybe Marill is next to drop.

Speaking of Azumarill, the possibility of not hitting L46, when Superpower is learnt, until the end of the game is very real - Azumarill's experience group makes it hard to miss should your playstyle involve using everybody liberally and not keeping levels even at all times. Superpower is kind of a big deal for Glacia and Steven.
I'm not sure I understand your argument about Azumarill and Superpower. You say it's a very real possibility of not hitting level 46 where it learns Superpower until the end, but then you say its fast EXP group makes it difficult to miss. If it's hard to miss getting it to level 46... then how is it a very real possibility of not getting there? Regardless, it does still have access to the much weaker Brick Break until it can learn Superpower, and may still get there through trashing much of Sydney's team with Play Rough and/or using a few Rare Candies found along the way.
 
On topic of Heracross and Pinsir, I would just throw in that you catch them most likely before going to Mt. Pyre around Level 30, but you might search for them some time with the low encounter rates they have.
Now to contribute against Mossdeep gym you really need to level them up to the late 30ies, with Pinsir being majorly favored by typing and more reliable STAB attack. Even then the Kadabras might give trouble whenever they choose Psychic. This becomes relevant when you look at the slow level gain of both bugs. They need to get into every battle to catch up with your team but have trouble with the most relevant foes from capture onwards (Camerupt isn´t OHKOed, Crobat is a no go, Mightyena might be annoying to face if underleveled).

Heracross has the niche of getting the Megastone without diving detour and getting Bullet Seed for Wallace, but being lower leveled and likely less trained than your other members it might need to deal with a lot of attacks, including confusion and other random annoyance. It has the better matchup against the Elite 4 compared to Pinsir, but has the same problem with getting outspeed again. This will influence its performance and makes it less viable than other available options in lategame.

I can see both of them in A because of sheer power but B does fit as well, considering how slow they should catch up in a non grind run. (A / B)
S tier I cannot understand at all, maybe someone can give some details about in game performance(levels, KO ratio, battle speed, amount of healing...)

About the starter discussion: In my previous runs I found none off them impressive enough for S tier, but maybe DHR-107 can expand a bit on how often he had to heal Torchic/Combusken or how he trained it to nuke through the game until it became a Blaziken.

Now back to slate:
I would support both cover legends to go into S. Just watch some speed runs to get an impression on how easily they trash the lategame. Better not throw the Masterball on a Magikarp before the fight though ;)
Oddish has quite a number of unfavorable matchups for raising it to B and the bulk it has gets counteracted by the number of super effective hits it has to take from the many faster foes it will face. C imo
I already explained why I see Bagon as a solid D tier member. Easy to fit in as a bulky supportive attacker lategame.
Shroomish really appreciates Poison Heal and benefits a lot from a very solid early game with it. Only Torkoal, Camerupt and Golbat pose a serious threat until you reach Winona when you have it. This gives quite a level advantage in mid game to carry it through the rough gyms 6 and 7, where it can contribute in minor way. Mach Punch and Swords Dance are still a solid option to get around its speed issues here and are great for the Elite Four matchups as well. Okay in the end and great in the beginning does add up to A for me.
 

Colonel M

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If the issue is Lati@s and Heracross, I think the problem is Lati@s being in S.

Lati@s is good but honestly it does not really do anything earth shattering. Even its utility with soaring is honestly mediocre in the event of flying somewhere linearly. I honestly found using Fly so much faster because you dont have to actually soar to a direction. It also isnt really that fair to consider Lati@s soar mechanics (if it is) because that is based more of the item than the Pokemon itself.

Mudkip (and possibly Marill) are a bit more worthy of S. Consider that Mudkip is capable of learning Surf / Waterfall / Dive / Strength / Rock Smash. Secondly Mudkip has a major availability lead over a good portion of A Tier Pokemon.

A major issue with Treecko is that it suffers a rollercoaster of good and bad moments. Mudkip and Torchic (Torchic especially) usually are more consistent on performance.

Ill expand more later since Mudkip being S has been called into question here and there, but ultimately I think the real solution is just dropping Lati@s to A and uber legendaries to S.
 
re Mudkip:

If it's in S-tier it must be a spectacular fighter period. In the periods when Mudkip is getting outsped by scrubs, or when Marshtomp is using special moves because it hasn't got anything better, or when Swampert continuously misses OHKOs with its STABs and coverage moves, is it being a spectacular fighter? I feel this is the question we have to answer. I still feel its similarity to Treecko (same availability and access to 3 HM moves too, though Swampert does have more) when everything is weighed and considered makes them impossible to put into different tiers.

This applies to Lati as well; are they really as good as fighters?
 

Karxrida

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re Mudkip:

If it's in S-tier it must be a spectacular fighter period. In the periods when Mudkip is getting outsped by scrubs, or when Marshtomp is using special moves because it hasn't got anything better, or when Swampert continuously misses OHKOs with its STABs and coverage moves, is it being a spectacular fighter? I feel this is the question we have to answer. I still feel its similarity to Treecko (same availability and access to 3 HM moves too, though Swampert does have more) when everything is weighed and considered makes them impossible to put into different tiers.

This applies to Lati as well; are they really as good as fighters?
They start off with decently powered STABs (Luster Purge and Mist Ball's low PP really blows though), get access to coverage moves that you'll already have on you (Surf, Charge Beam if you bought it) or find shortly after getting them (Shadow Ball), and you get their strong Megas with them. Latios has a slight advantage since it's stronger, can use physical attacks for its Mega (and naturally learns Zen Headbutt at level 41), and Surf lets it OHKO team Magma's Numels/Camerupts.
 
Lati@s is good but honestly it does not really do anything earth shattering. Even its utility with soaring is honestly mediocre in the event of flying somewhere linearly. I honestly found using Fly so much faster because you dont have to actually soar to a direction. It also isnt really that fair to consider Lati@s soar mechanics (if it is) because that is based more of the item than the Pokemon itself.
Hang on, why is Soaring being considered in this at all? From a mechanics perspective it has absolutely nothing to do with Lati@s; you could trade away both Latios and Latiosite and you'd still be able to soar. I don't understand why this is included in an argument for Lati@s.
The reason I consider Lati@s S-rank is because it's literally a free gift you do nothing to obtain, is very fast, very powerful and even if it lags behind a few levels due to it being a low Exp gain you can always Mega Evolve to make up for it. The only possible problem is movepool, but even then Dragonbreath, Mist Ball/Luster Purge and Surf served me fine. It's literally a free powerhouse with a free Mega Stone, I can't see it going anywhere below S.
 
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