Wait, don't people know how Beat up works?? I literally posted how it works in Gen VI mechanics, the attack stats of team mates doesn't matter. Like, I showed how much baser power it has and everything
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ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324
- Thread starter Celever
- Start date
- Status
I'd say we still shouldn't consider it, at least not until we start looking into if a Pokemon happens to get a certain egg move will that change its tier placement part. There's nothing efficient about doing it unless by sheer random luck, and then we're also masking the negative points of the Pokemon in question to some degree.
Besides, it usually doesn't take much time to catch a particular Pokemon thanks to DexNav in the first place. It's not uncommon for the rarer ones to pop up on it as you're passing through the route. The first post even says that we consider all Pokemon to have 100% encounter rates because of DexNav, unless Celever has recently removed it.
Dex Nav hunting isn't that inefficient*,especially with repels, but I think its good to discount it because the level increase applies to anything except for Nosepass. It seems less like it would help out some pokemon as much as it just shifts everything equally? Sure a level 14 seedot with 3 star potential is great but so is a level 14 ralts with 3 star potential or a surskit or whatever
*special exception to granite cave, whose multiple rooms and ledges make it difficult to chase down pokemon and the bottom of hte cave has mobile trainers that will just walk all over them
How does it work ?
From Bulba :
Instead of using each party member's Attack stat, the user's Attack alone is used to calculate the damage of each strike. Furthermore, the base power per strike is no longer 10, but instead individually based on the Attack base stats of the party Pokémon:
Base power = (party member's base Attack) / 10 + 5
Thus, the damage dealt by each strike still depends on the other party members, but is now determined by base Attack instead of the Attack stat. Beat Up now receives STAB from Dark-type users and no longer deals typeless damage. Beat Up ignores changes to stat levels such as Swords Dance, but each strike does increase in power from Attack-boosting items like the Choice Band if held by the user.
You could also give your Seedot/Nuzleaf/Shiftry a King's Rock. Using King's Rock and hitting six times gives you almost a 50% chance of a flinch. Also, if your team has an average base Attack stat of 50 (which most pokemon exceed) and you have 6 non-fainted non-statused pokemon (which was normal for me, and I wasn't even trying to speedrun or make an efficient playthrough), Feint Attack and Beat Up will hit just as hard. You could even have special attackers like Alakazam, Kyogre, and Manectic and still outdamage Feint Attack.
Ignoring the variable base attack power of Punishment and Fling, and Foul Play because it uses the target's attack stat, you need an average base attack stat of 84 to outdamage Crunch, the strongest physical dark-type move, and over 1/3 of the pokedex can has that (over 60% if you only count FE pokemon).
The talk about Beat Up and its mechanics is interesting (and I think it should be considered, since it's a guaranteed encounter), but we should discuss if it boosts Seedot's tier placement. As I argued earlier, Beat Up helps, but it's not enough of a boost to reach A. The power is too variable from run to run, not everyone uses six pokemon, and Feint Attack/Thief come early enough for non-Beat Up Seedots that the change in tier shouldn't be massive. It definitely helps level Seedot to Nuzleaf, but I don't think that's enough. Seedot for B.
I fully support the Regis all going to E. The process of getting them should be reason enough. You need a Wailord and a Relicanth (the former requires at least some grinding), you need to go way out of the way to navigate the rapids puzzle, you needs to backtrack three times to find the Regi caves, and then dedicate the time to catch them -no easy feat, considering their Catch Rate. To top it all off, they're not even that impressive when you get them, they come very late in the game, and none of them have enough important good matchups to make up for it. All Regis for E.
I fully support the Regis all going to E. The process of getting them should be reason enough. You need a Wailord and a Relicanth (the former requires at least some grinding), you need to go way out of the way to navigate the rapids puzzle, you needs to backtrack three times to find the Regi caves, and then dedicate the time to catch them -no easy feat, considering their Catch Rate. To top it all off, they're not even that impressive when you get them, they come very late in the game, and none of them have enough important good matchups to make up for it. All Regis for E.
Remember that King's Rock is a late option, and not a particularly reliable one.
Shiftry gets access to some good setup moves like PuP, Swords Dance and later Nasty Plot (which is good because it finally starts getting good special moves as Shiftry), and it evolves slightly earlier than your starter on most runs. It's a little frail though and could be a bit faster. Probably not solid enough for A, but a B it is. The Seedot period really hurts it, so it's best to catch it at lv. 12-13 with DexNav if you can afford to farm.
Also, none of the following should be present in A tier IMHO:
Corphish - slowish, late arrival, Waterfall comes late
Geodude/Golem - many weaknesses, slow, poor special defence
Numel - slow and rather fragile, bad gym matchups and misses Wattson
Staryu - late arrival, Thunderbolt/Ice Beam requiring detours in the remakes, Psychic-typing disadvantageous against the first four elites, no Calm Mind
Whismur - slow, fragile, needs setup to match others' offence, downright terrible in mid to lategame
Wingull - poor offence and base stats, the powerful tutor moves whiff a lot
Shroomish - difficult to train pre-evo and never really rewards you for your effort, bad matchups in most of the E4
Zubat - overkill speed and only okay offence, mostly mediocre matchups
Tentacool - special defensive tank with just okay offence
With good experience facing the E4 underlevelled, I'd also like to question Carvanha's high position yet again. There's no way it can contribute anything particularly valuable in the E4.
Shiftry gets access to some good setup moves like PuP, Swords Dance and later Nasty Plot (which is good because it finally starts getting good special moves as Shiftry), and it evolves slightly earlier than your starter on most runs. It's a little frail though and could be a bit faster. Probably not solid enough for A, but a B it is. The Seedot period really hurts it, so it's best to catch it at lv. 12-13 with DexNav if you can afford to farm.
Also, none of the following should be present in A tier IMHO:
Corphish - slowish, late arrival, Waterfall comes late
Geodude/Golem - many weaknesses, slow, poor special defence
Numel - slow and rather fragile, bad gym matchups and misses Wattson
Staryu - late arrival, Thunderbolt/Ice Beam requiring detours in the remakes, Psychic-typing disadvantageous against the first four elites, no Calm Mind
Whismur - slow, fragile, needs setup to match others' offence, downright terrible in mid to lategame
Wingull - poor offence and base stats, the powerful tutor moves whiff a lot
Shroomish - difficult to train pre-evo and never really rewards you for your effort, bad matchups in most of the E4
Zubat - overkill speed and only okay offence, mostly mediocre matchups
Tentacool - special defensive tank with just okay offence
With good experience facing the E4 underlevelled, I'd also like to question Carvanha's high position yet again. There's no way it can contribute anything particularly valuable in the E4.
I also was underleveled in the E4, and Carvanha destroyed Phoebe, so there's that
As for Numel, I really think it should stay in A. I used one as well, and it was a boss. Yes Numel is slow, but it hits like a tank with Flame Burst and Bulldoze, to be replaced with Lava Plume, (those burns are so helpful) Fire Blast, and Earth Power. Plus you already have a soft sand when you get it and Charcoal is on its way. The matchups arent too great save for Flannery because Earth Power, but it holds its own against Norman, Winona, and Tate and Liza. The water routes are annoying but I had a team of six rotating so I actually was never in a situation where Camerupt had to fight in a water route. Against the E4, my Camerupt took down Sydney almost by herself (stupid sharpedo) and did great against Steven, despite my being underlevled.
Protip, btw: if playing Omega Ruby, leave some water trainers for Camerupt to fight, and wait until the default weather becomes Desolate Land. Your fire moves get powered up and your water weakness is 100% gone.
You forgot Kadabra (which we discussed a while back and we concluded that it should be lower).
Kadabra is quite self-sufficient with Reflect and Calm Mind, but is that enough for A?
I had the feeling that Stab Psychic lacks advantages in this game, coverage options are available but apart from Dazzling Gleam, the good ones come late. The power drop from (Mega) Zam is really noticeable, even more so the speed drop - ORAS has a lot of Pokemon with high base speed that can slow your run down(DoubleTeam, ConfuseRay... just name it, you get it). Thus being over the top is actually quite efficient sometimes while staying at 105 base is ok.
Short reply on your list of downrates:
After some speed runs and challenge runs I would agree with anything bar Shroomish.
Everything slow just isn´t efficient enough in this game.
For Shroomish I would recommend testing Poison Heal/ Facade before you cast your vote, that should change its performance. Also give a shit about GigaDrain and evolve at 23. Mega Drain + occasional Leech Seed is enough for Shroom and Breloom does not need grass Stab for a long time when Facade/Low Sweep are cool enough.
Corphish: I agree, it's too slow and specially frail. However, Waterfall doesn't mean much for it since it has Razor Shell and Crabhammer, which both do well enough. B (I admit I haven't used Corphish, but I stand by my reasoning)
Geodude: I'm on the fence. Golem does extremely well in a couple important battles (and soundly beats all the Mightyena and Golbats running around) but does poorly in the E4 and is very slow. I'll say B, but I wouldn't complain about A.
Numel: B for sure, it has the same speed problem as the previous two, but also has a huge 4x water weakness in a game where water is everywhere. No idea how this got into A
Staryu: B, it's a good pokemon, but comes too late to be A.
Whismur: I think Whismur is fine in A. While it starts to fall off some in the late game, it's not that bad, and it has the coverage to make up for its stats. While not, bulky, I also wouldn't call it frail thanks to a 104 HP stat.
Wingull: I think Wingull should be B, it's a good HM slave and is passable early on, but that's not enough to make up for its late game. It doesn't have very many good matchups either.
Shroomish: I'm with hard, I think this should be A. Breloom has good matchups (Roxanne, Norman, Wallace, Sidney, Steven and sort of Glacia and Wattson) great Attack, and good enough Speed.
Zubat: Haven't used it and don't have anything to add.
Tentacool: B, Tentacool and Tentacruel have mediocre matchups and average offensive stats and coverage. Nowhere near good enough for A.
Thoughts on B-Tier:
Barboach: Can someone enlighten me on what it does to deserve B? Comes after fifth badge, bulky but middling speed, average offences and no set up moves to help. A mid-game EQ is only really useful for Team Magma. I cannot see why it should not drop to C.
Geodude w/o Trade: Drop it to C. Maybe lower. Discussed to death.
Lotad: Fine there.
Machamp: No comment.
Cosplay Pikachu: Fine there.
Pinsir: It is only B because it has a strong mega evolution whose typing is not exactly great for the remaining major battles, right?
Fang Poochyena: Why is this still not merged with normal Poochyena for C? Wouldn't people just use the Fang Variant as opposed to a random encounter one? Merge and drop to C.
Psyduck: Too late, not very helpful, C.
Relicanth: Comes way too late and does not have much in the way of good matchups. C or D.
Roselia: Fine there.
Seedot: Given early Beat Up this seems fine.
Seviper: No idea why such a frail Pokémon with middling speed is in B. What good matchups does it have that makes it deserve B?
Skarmory: Fine there.
Snorunt: If it is up here then it should be because the Mega is ridiculous to make up for its late arrival. If the mega is not really great then this should not be B.
Spheal: Too late, C.
Spoink: I struggle to see how this is good enough for B. Someone with experience should enlighten me but on paper this looks like a C mon with no naturally advantageous matchups, middling offences and speed, etc. At least its Special bulk is decent.
Taillow: GUTS + POISON + FACADE LGI... It is good enough for B though I do not think it is good enough for A. Despite the oppo cost the poison sting to poison it strategy has its merits and should be considered; we assume the player knows what they are doing.
Torkoal: God this thing is slower than molasses... The only redeeming feature of it is its physical bulk otherwise it struggles from average offences and a slow speed that makes even using Shell Smash not a bright idea.
Trapinch: I should pick up OR again since I am using it. No comment atm but Base 10 Speed until about Gym 6 is ridiculous.
Beautifly: Its performance is equal to Masquerain and both are good enough to be in the same tier as each other. This to C or Masquerain to B.
Zigzagoon: Outside of being an all purpose HM Slave, what does this thing do that makes it B based on battling?
Zubat: Fine there.
Might go through C-Tier eventually.
Barboach: Can someone enlighten me on what it does to deserve B? Comes after fifth badge, bulky but middling speed, average offences and no set up moves to help. A mid-game EQ is only really useful for Team Magma. I cannot see why it should not drop to C.
Geodude w/o Trade: Drop it to C. Maybe lower. Discussed to death.
Lotad: Fine there.
Machamp: No comment.
Cosplay Pikachu: Fine there.
Pinsir: It is only B because it has a strong mega evolution whose typing is not exactly great for the remaining major battles, right?
Fang Poochyena: Why is this still not merged with normal Poochyena for C? Wouldn't people just use the Fang Variant as opposed to a random encounter one? Merge and drop to C.
Psyduck: Too late, not very helpful, C.
Relicanth: Comes way too late and does not have much in the way of good matchups. C or D.
Roselia: Fine there.
Seedot: Given early Beat Up this seems fine.
Seviper: No idea why such a frail Pokémon with middling speed is in B. What good matchups does it have that makes it deserve B?
Skarmory: Fine there.
Snorunt: If it is up here then it should be because the Mega is ridiculous to make up for its late arrival. If the mega is not really great then this should not be B.
Spheal: Too late, C.
Spoink: I struggle to see how this is good enough for B. Someone with experience should enlighten me but on paper this looks like a C mon with no naturally advantageous matchups, middling offences and speed, etc. At least its Special bulk is decent.
Taillow: GUTS + POISON + FACADE LGI... It is good enough for B though I do not think it is good enough for A. Despite the oppo cost the poison sting to poison it strategy has its merits and should be considered; we assume the player knows what they are doing.
Torkoal: God this thing is slower than molasses... The only redeeming feature of it is its physical bulk otherwise it struggles from average offences and a slow speed that makes even using Shell Smash not a bright idea.
Trapinch: I should pick up OR again since I am using it. No comment atm but Base 10 Speed until about Gym 6 is ridiculous.
Beautifly: Its performance is equal to Masquerain and both are good enough to be in the same tier as each other. This to C or Masquerain to B.
Zigzagoon: Outside of being an all purpose HM Slave, what does this thing do that makes it B based on battling?
Zubat: Fine there.
Might go through C-Tier eventually.
I used Pinsir on my 2nd efficient run and during the time it was in the team it was the MVP of the party (certainly beating Swampert and Magneton in that period of the game). It's at least as good as Heracross and possibly even better since it becomes a lot faster when going mega (Hera gets slower in the meantime), so sweeping with a Swords Dance set is plausible in many fights. Should you opt not to sweep, Aerilate-boosted Thrash is a nuke that has approximately the power of Slaking's Giga Impact, and it can actually stay in and OHKO some more tough mons with it if you want to. Strength is probably the best flying-type alternative in mega, and I honestly wouldn't bother with Superpower (EQ + X-Scissor is the best combo for Pinsir in terms of coverage).
Considering we have such late additions to the party as Meditite and Carvanha in A-tier (and a few really questionable ones like Staryu and Corphish there too), I think Heracross and Pinsir could be lifted up to A as well.
One problem I'd have with that, though, is that Groudon and Kyogre are also in A, and they're exemplary latemons in that tier. So the question is probably whether you want to compare the mega-bugs to the legendaries on the cover or to Meditite/Carvanha (Meditite is easily the scarier of the two if we're comparing them for something that's not fast surfing).
I think I stated that we really did overestimate that early elemental fang. I mean, did we ever give the same importance to the Rock Tomb TM you get after the first gym? Much better availability to mons at that point of the game, only slightly weaker and lowers speed to boot. It seems so goofy that we focus on such a minor move on such an all-around atrocious mon.
If you don't wait a mere 3 levels, you lose out on Giga Drain with its great power and recovery - power that you don't get until the Energy Ball TM a good while later. Since fighting-type coverage is pretty bad in itself (so many resist it), Breloom really appreciates Giga Drain as something it can use on many rocks and waters it wishes it could hurt better. When you do get Seed Bomb, it's far too late I'm afraid.
Also, I find it strange how much you emphasise speed (when speaking of mons and also about game completion), and at the same time praise Leech Seed (which is kind of a waste of time in-game) and single out Breloom who is slower than many of these (most notably Crobat, but also Kadabra and Tentacruel, and I suppose Wingull pre-evo).
Oh, and shouldn't Trapinch get the same treatment as Ralts (Gallade)? You don't get Flygon until L45 and that's also, um, higher than the level most of my team always finishes the game at.
Considering we have such late additions to the party as Meditite and Carvanha in A-tier (and a few really questionable ones like Staryu and Corphish there too), I think Heracross and Pinsir could be lifted up to A as well.
One problem I'd have with that, though, is that Groudon and Kyogre are also in A, and they're exemplary latemons in that tier. So the question is probably whether you want to compare the mega-bugs to the legendaries on the cover or to Meditite/Carvanha (Meditite is easily the scarier of the two if we're comparing them for something that's not fast surfing).
I think I stated that we really did overestimate that early elemental fang. I mean, did we ever give the same importance to the Rock Tomb TM you get after the first gym? Much better availability to mons at that point of the game, only slightly weaker and lowers speed to boot. It seems so goofy that we focus on such a minor move on such an all-around atrocious mon.
If you don't wait a mere 3 levels, you lose out on Giga Drain with its great power and recovery - power that you don't get until the Energy Ball TM a good while later. Since fighting-type coverage is pretty bad in itself (so many resist it), Breloom really appreciates Giga Drain as something it can use on many rocks and waters it wishes it could hurt better. When you do get Seed Bomb, it's far too late I'm afraid.
Also, I find it strange how much you emphasise speed (when speaking of mons and also about game completion), and at the same time praise Leech Seed (which is kind of a waste of time in-game) and single out Breloom who is slower than many of these (most notably Crobat, but also Kadabra and Tentacruel, and I suppose Wingull pre-evo).
Oh, and shouldn't Trapinch get the same treatment as Ralts (Gallade)? You don't get Flygon until L45 and that's also, um, higher than the level most of my team always finishes the game at.
That´s right Lucchini. Speedwise Breloom is in a bad position from/ after Petalburg.
Still Mega Drain is enough to OHKO the only common Ground Pokemon that are weak to grass: Geodude/Georok and Sandshrew. By the time that you encounter grass weak Water types like Azumarill, Starmie and Lanturn you have better options to get them down with Breloom.
Now you speak about preserving health and it shows that you have never successfully used Poison Heal Breloom. Consistent healing is what differentiates Breloom from the huge amount of other Slowmons.
This and super early evolution gives you the ability to switch Breloom in on the foes that it is meant to drag down: Fighting, (non Flying) Bug, Electric, Normal and many Water types are easy prey for Breloom and it only needs Facade/Low Sweep to do this job.
Giga Drain is not what you want to have in the fourth slot for a long time anyway and evolving at 25 is a significant delay until after Mauville, which will inevitably lead to a poor performance. (Breloom trashes Mauville gym and getting it is easy with the ridiculous exp curve of fluctuating Pokemon/ the nice 60/60 bulk + Poison Heal for Shroomish)
Now onto Leech Seed: It is used in the Shroomish stage where it is used as a slow way to enhance your damage output, while you give experience to your team embers that might need to catch up. This is for sure a slow way, but many alternative solutions are either less reliable or just as slow. You will obviously forget it whenever Breloom has better options, which means in Mauville.
We need to remember that level gain is very important below the 20ies. Damage output will differ a lot more when you compare 7->10 than 37->40.
For this reason I appreciate to have Pokemon that are bulky early on, to switch them in when you train other team members without needing immidiate healing. This is my personal preference and gives some insight what I consider efficient in the early game.
Because IAR mentioned efficient Self Poisoning: Let a team member Toxic your Guts/Poison Heal Pokemon in one of the many double fights after only one foe is left. (Shroomish can also PoisonPowder any Synchronize Pokemon for high efficiency.)
Still Mega Drain is enough to OHKO the only common Ground Pokemon that are weak to grass: Geodude/Georok and Sandshrew. By the time that you encounter grass weak Water types like Azumarill, Starmie and Lanturn you have better options to get them down with Breloom.
Now you speak about preserving health and it shows that you have never successfully used Poison Heal Breloom. Consistent healing is what differentiates Breloom from the huge amount of other Slowmons.
This and super early evolution gives you the ability to switch Breloom in on the foes that it is meant to drag down: Fighting, (non Flying) Bug, Electric, Normal and many Water types are easy prey for Breloom and it only needs Facade/Low Sweep to do this job.
Giga Drain is not what you want to have in the fourth slot for a long time anyway and evolving at 25 is a significant delay until after Mauville, which will inevitably lead to a poor performance. (Breloom trashes Mauville gym and getting it is easy with the ridiculous exp curve of fluctuating Pokemon/ the nice 60/60 bulk + Poison Heal for Shroomish)
Now onto Leech Seed: It is used in the Shroomish stage where it is used as a slow way to enhance your damage output, while you give experience to your team embers that might need to catch up. This is for sure a slow way, but many alternative solutions are either less reliable or just as slow. You will obviously forget it whenever Breloom has better options, which means in Mauville.
We need to remember that level gain is very important below the 20ies. Damage output will differ a lot more when you compare 7->10 than 37->40.
For this reason I appreciate to have Pokemon that are bulky early on, to switch them in when you train other team members without needing immidiate healing. This is my personal preference and gives some insight what I consider efficient in the early game.
Because IAR mentioned efficient Self Poisoning: Let a team member Toxic your Guts/Poison Heal Pokemon in one of the many double fights after only one foe is left. (Shroomish can also PoisonPowder any Synchronize Pokemon for high efficiency.)
Im thinking Trapinch and Barboach can definitely fall to C (as Graveler but as mentioned discussed to death).Aand Power Gem for Flannery
Poochyena is also fine to merge. Place in C.
Honestly Tropius should fall to C before Ziggy. Ziggy at least has a good portion of earlygame where it can be useful in field fights. Headbutt is later but Tackle is 50 BP and 100% accurate at least.
With Seviper I might be impartial to blame on this one. Though somewhat sluggish it hits fairly hard. But I cant think of anything too redeeming. Sludge Bomb I guess. Drop it to C. It fits C nicely anyway.
As for Pinsir this I am a little nervous on raising it to A. I think one thing that helps is that it can nuke through shit if you want, though Thrash also has that severe downside of confusing yourself after 2-3 uses. It also doesnt really sweep through Glacia as an example. Mega Hera does a little better here with STAB Fighting. Same with Steven. Even so Strength with Aerilate is ridiculous enough. I actually want to see this compared to Meditite since they have roughly the same availability. I probably can concede it to A though.
I think Snorunt can maybe drop to C. It still takes time to raise up to Glalie. Its (Mega) Evolution is pretty solid thanks to Freeze-Dry nullifying Wallace but I don't think it's earth-shattering in the Elite Four. At least Refrigerate Explosion is hilarious sometimes if you need to use it. If we're okay with the sort of grinding it could take before it is Glalie then maybe it can stay in B.
About the only notable thing I could think of on Spoink is Thick Fat eases setup for Charge Beam + Psybeam on Flannery. Aaaand maybe some other Calm Mind shenanigans after Tate / Liza and I guess Power Gem works against Winona. I'm with IAR - if someone used Spoink I want to know about it.
Iunno about Spheal though. One perk is that it's available to Surf immediately. Aurora Beam is kind of so-so for Ice-type moves though.
Poochyena is also fine to merge. Place in C.
Honestly Tropius should fall to C before Ziggy. Ziggy at least has a good portion of earlygame where it can be useful in field fights. Headbutt is later but Tackle is 50 BP and 100% accurate at least.
With Seviper I might be impartial to blame on this one. Though somewhat sluggish it hits fairly hard. But I cant think of anything too redeeming. Sludge Bomb I guess. Drop it to C. It fits C nicely anyway.
As for Pinsir this I am a little nervous on raising it to A. I think one thing that helps is that it can nuke through shit if you want, though Thrash also has that severe downside of confusing yourself after 2-3 uses. It also doesnt really sweep through Glacia as an example. Mega Hera does a little better here with STAB Fighting. Same with Steven. Even so Strength with Aerilate is ridiculous enough. I actually want to see this compared to Meditite since they have roughly the same availability. I probably can concede it to A though.
I think Snorunt can maybe drop to C. It still takes time to raise up to Glalie. Its (Mega) Evolution is pretty solid thanks to Freeze-Dry nullifying Wallace but I don't think it's earth-shattering in the Elite Four. At least Refrigerate Explosion is hilarious sometimes if you need to use it. If we're okay with the sort of grinding it could take before it is Glalie then maybe it can stay in B.
About the only notable thing I could think of on Spoink is Thick Fat eases setup for Charge Beam + Psybeam on Flannery. Aaaand maybe some other Calm Mind shenanigans after Tate / Liza and I guess Power Gem works against Winona. I'm with IAR - if someone used Spoink I want to know about it.
Iunno about Spheal though. One perk is that it's available to Surf immediately. Aurora Beam is kind of so-so for Ice-type moves though.
I used Spoink in a normal playthrough, and honestly it was amazing, because 1# it levels up really fast 2#Thick Fat helped me in some matches (and in Elite Four too) 3#Power Gem, nuff said. It gets Psybeam, Charge Beam, Grass Knot and its stats are pretty fine
I won't rank it though.
I won't rank it though.
Besides a mediocre base stat allocation, Grumpig also learns Psychic really late at L52 (compare this with Alakazam - 38, Xatu - 35, Kirlia - 30, Lunatone/Solrock - 29).
I think we could always just move Groudon and Kyogre up to S-tier and not have to worry about separating the few excellent non-legend latemons who are mostly equally proficient (Meditite, Heracross, Absol, Pinsir - Carvanha and Corphish easily stand out as the weakest links on this list).
WRT Heracross vs. Pinsir in the E4.
Against Sydney, MPinsir is preferred to MHeracross because 105 base speed should enable him to outspeed Shiftry, Absol and also have a shot at outspeeding Sharpedo. Heracross will have to take hits, including 4x effective Aerial Ace from Absol.
Phoebe - Heracross's STABs are both resisted here, while Pinsir can nuke everything with a flying-type STAB of choice, and can easily attempt a sweep at some point (not a fan of the lead Dusclops with Curse, myself).
Glacia - Froslass (2x) is most probably faster than both Pinsir and Heracross, in which case Heracross's lack of weakness to Blizzard makes him more suitable here. Still, Froslass requires something like Stone Edge if you want to hit it supereffectively.
Drake - both are comparable here with good occasional contributions. Heracross doesn't like Altaria's Aerial Ace while Pinsir dislikes Kingdra's coverage Ice Beam.
Steven - Pinsir isn't as vulnerable to Skarm and could attempt to set up here. Heracross will likely fail to outspeed Claydol (in normal form as well) and take an Extrasensory, which may not necessarily be fatal anyway. Mega Metagross running Zen Headbutt makes Pinsir the better candidate to take on the game's strongest enemy. Mold Breaker is a nice way to break Aggron's Sturdy, too.
Pinsir also sweeps Wallace more easily than Hera so I'd say he would be the better of the two.
I think we could always just move Groudon and Kyogre up to S-tier and not have to worry about separating the few excellent non-legend latemons who are mostly equally proficient (Meditite, Heracross, Absol, Pinsir - Carvanha and Corphish easily stand out as the weakest links on this list).
WRT Heracross vs. Pinsir in the E4.
Against Sydney, MPinsir is preferred to MHeracross because 105 base speed should enable him to outspeed Shiftry, Absol and also have a shot at outspeeding Sharpedo. Heracross will have to take hits, including 4x effective Aerial Ace from Absol.
Phoebe - Heracross's STABs are both resisted here, while Pinsir can nuke everything with a flying-type STAB of choice, and can easily attempt a sweep at some point (not a fan of the lead Dusclops with Curse, myself).
Glacia - Froslass (2x) is most probably faster than both Pinsir and Heracross, in which case Heracross's lack of weakness to Blizzard makes him more suitable here. Still, Froslass requires something like Stone Edge if you want to hit it supereffectively.
Drake - both are comparable here with good occasional contributions. Heracross doesn't like Altaria's Aerial Ace while Pinsir dislikes Kingdra's coverage Ice Beam.
Steven - Pinsir isn't as vulnerable to Skarm and could attempt to set up here. Heracross will likely fail to outspeed Claydol (in normal form as well) and take an Extrasensory, which may not necessarily be fatal anyway. Mega Metagross running Zen Headbutt makes Pinsir the better candidate to take on the game's strongest enemy. Mold Breaker is a nice way to break Aggron's Sturdy, too.
Pinsir also sweeps Wallace more easily than Hera so I'd say he would be the better of the two.
Well by the Elite 4 at least but yeah Grumpig really lacks outside of Psybeam. Though it doesnt have the worst of moves and its bases kind of pass it (Thick Fat really helps).
This may also not seem -too- groundbreaking but Spoink family also has access to Taunt - a TM that does require kind of a detour but it can really save a lot of Pokemon from headaches (remember that Dusclops Phoebe has? Or that Skarmory that Steven has? Yeah. Those). Taunt shuts down Slugma enough to where Charge Beam can rack up nicely against Slugma and then Slugma will just blow its load with Overheat or lolRock Throw (it stings but Spoink should live at least two without a problem). Taunt also means setting up on Luvdisc became ggezmode for the most part.
Pretty much agreed.
Regular Heracross probably can avoid Absol's Aerial Ace. It is kind of close but there are alternatives to bypass it. Pinsir would have to Mega Evolve to bypass the Speed issue later on though so honestly considering using an X Speed takes roughly the same time as a Mega it is kind of close but both shitstomp Sydney anyway.
This is where M-Pinsir should just Thrash and hope for the best. Though it will miss the OHKO sadly on Dusclops. Guess bank for SD or settle the 2HKO with Strength. Night Slash from Mega Hera 2HKOes Dusclops though likely is about a 3HKO on 'noir.
Yeah even Level 48 MHera fails with Night Slash. One notable upside is that MHera shits on Walrein - arguably the bigger problem child on Glacia's team.
Yeah pretty much.
I wouldnt really try setting up on Skarmory - a big problem is you probably want the extra tankiness from Mega Pinsir and Toxic can wear Pinsir out. Mold Breaker is only in base form - so you have to stay as normal Pinsir to really bypass Aggron. Aerial Ace, btw, is a 2HKO on Pinsir (like I really need to calc Heras). Considering the only behemoth that probably can set up on Skarmory is Mega Gyarados with Taunt it is kind of forgiven.
I dont know about that. Hera could have Bullet Seed from move relearner - and Wallace doesnt really do jack shit to either.
Semantics aside both seem good for A. Pinsir and Hera. Pinsir needing Mega a lot is kind of annoying but Hera does kind of want his often too (Skill Link Pin Missile is just more reliable).
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I used Spoink for a short time until after Norman and I really didn´t like the low physical bulk. The ChargeBeam scenario seems very tedious and apart from Tate and Liza I would say it lacks favourable matchups.
Being a fast learner is nice and it is easy to keep it on par with your team by simply leading with it, but it lacks noticeable contributions. ORAS is very physical damage based, if we look at the main/unavoidable fights, so special bulk is not that much of a positive trait.
Wallace is easier dealt with using heavy hitters. The E4 is troublesome for a lot of psychic types.
On topic of fast learner: Caught Mawile in Victory Road in this run. Easy leveling to 48 by only fighting the Victory Road trainers, where it can contribute nicely even though under leveled - swept Wally on the way out without Play Rough.
Can get Play Rough with one Rare Candy or Move Relearner to steamroll even more Elite Four members. To add on that, it gets an easy setup opportunity against Skarmory to sweep(!) the stoned Champion.
(Moveset: Stockpile/Play Rough->Power Up Punch/Iron Head/ Swallow(had item usage restricted)@Mawilite)
I would rate it A, because it needs no special training at all and sweeps the Elite Four with little setup(usually appreciates Xspeed or Stockpile).
This avoids the need to backtrack and still makes a very noticeable contribution. Otherwise it can be caught in OR in Granite Cave or Cave of Origin. Now Granite Cave seems to be the least favourable access for Mawile and we tend to rate Pokemon on the highest available option, so has anyone else tried out late game Mawile?
Being a fast learner is nice and it is easy to keep it on par with your team by simply leading with it, but it lacks noticeable contributions. ORAS is very physical damage based, if we look at the main/unavoidable fights, so special bulk is not that much of a positive trait.
Wallace is easier dealt with using heavy hitters. The E4 is troublesome for a lot of psychic types.
On topic of fast learner: Caught Mawile in Victory Road in this run. Easy leveling to 48 by only fighting the Victory Road trainers, where it can contribute nicely even though under leveled - swept Wally on the way out without Play Rough.
Can get Play Rough with one Rare Candy or Move Relearner to steamroll even more Elite Four members. To add on that, it gets an easy setup opportunity against Skarmory to sweep(!) the stoned Champion.
(Moveset: Stockpile/Play Rough->Power Up Punch/Iron Head/ Swallow(had item usage restricted)@Mawilite)
I would rate it A, because it needs no special training at all and sweeps the Elite Four with little setup(usually appreciates Xspeed or Stockpile).
This avoids the need to backtrack and still makes a very noticeable contribution. Otherwise it can be caught in OR in Granite Cave or Cave of Origin. Now Granite Cave seems to be the least favourable access for Mawile and we tend to rate Pokemon on the highest available option, so has anyone else tried out late game Mawile?
Though the Mawile you catch on Victory Road is arguably much more convenient, like mentioned above it would have almost no real contributions outside of the Elite 4 and Wally. Granite Cave Mawile is your best Mawile honestly.
We mentioned Trapinch but it shouldnt really be E. For starters Vibrava, though arriving late, is decent and at least Trapinch hits a target hard. On a team of 3 Trapinch can probably hit Flygon before the E4. It definitely should drop - probably to C or D, but E is a bit much. E should be reserved for almost completely unsalvagable Pokemon or those that come extremely late with absurd costs to efficiency.
Im also really confused on Wailmer at D. Im not going to say it is a great Pokemon, but when it arrives it is decent. 70 on offenses with 60 Speed is passable - STAB Surf is really nice with access to Bulldoze and Rock Tomb for other shenanigans. Eventually it has Earthquake and can resort to HMing itself if necessary.
Finally I want people to possibly consider Shuppet in B. Though Level 37 is a kind of late evolution Shuppet levels fairly quick in its Exp Group. It can ease itself against matchups with Will-O-Wisp and still hits rather hard. As Mega Banette it is pretty strong - 165 Attack / 93 SpA / 75 Speed is just good enough.
For notable attacks Banette has Thunder, Taunt, Shadow Claw, and Dazzling Gleam for TMs. Since Shuppet is unavailable until after Winona obtaining Shadow Claw has a lower opportunity cost. This is because the trainer can Fly to get the TM rather than trekking from Mauville to Slateport, then to Dewford, then back, etc. It is better than a lot of current C mons IMO like Swablu who take a lot longer to get going than Shuppet.
We mentioned Trapinch but it shouldnt really be E. For starters Vibrava, though arriving late, is decent and at least Trapinch hits a target hard. On a team of 3 Trapinch can probably hit Flygon before the E4. It definitely should drop - probably to C or D, but E is a bit much. E should be reserved for almost completely unsalvagable Pokemon or those that come extremely late with absurd costs to efficiency.
Im also really confused on Wailmer at D. Im not going to say it is a great Pokemon, but when it arrives it is decent. 70 on offenses with 60 Speed is passable - STAB Surf is really nice with access to Bulldoze and Rock Tomb for other shenanigans. Eventually it has Earthquake and can resort to HMing itself if necessary.
Finally I want people to possibly consider Shuppet in B. Though Level 37 is a kind of late evolution Shuppet levels fairly quick in its Exp Group. It can ease itself against matchups with Will-O-Wisp and still hits rather hard. As Mega Banette it is pretty strong - 165 Attack / 93 SpA / 75 Speed is just good enough.
For notable attacks Banette has Thunder, Taunt, Shadow Claw, and Dazzling Gleam for TMs. Since Shuppet is unavailable until after Winona obtaining Shadow Claw has a lower opportunity cost. This is because the trainer can Fly to get the TM rather than trekking from Mauville to Slateport, then to Dewford, then back, etc. It is better than a lot of current C mons IMO like Swablu who take a lot longer to get going than Shuppet.
Well, but if it is so damned convenient I would definitely get it, if I lack a good answer for this last part. And it is already there and waiting for you just like Heraboss and Mr.Pince.
It´s just that I don´t agree with some lines dropped in many posts that late arrival makes the contributions less worthy, I disagree there.
That´s why I wish for the future discussion to consider the point of arrival a minor(less important) point compared to effort you need to put into getting the Pokemon/getting it to a level where it can contribute.
Of course Norman, Winona and Tate/Liza would be very positive matchups to consider the backtracking from Mauville on and we rank it A anyway.
Back on ratings:
I agree on Trapinch above E, D feels right. Very annoying to grind without Eviolite. Delaying evolution is still the best strategy to level up fast but this option comes late at 35. Would appreciate DexNav abuse for higher level a lot. Coming after Flannery hurts a lot.
Not being able to contribute in Petalburg and Fortree is troublesome. The payoff is not even closely comparable to other grind monster like Gardevoir, even though its in the medium fast group.
Doing well against Team Magma and Tate and Liza have been the only somewhat noticeable contributions. Would still say that Trapinch has a better Kill rate than Luvdisc ;)
Staying with the dragons:
Bagon: Easy capture after Wallace, requires detour of 10 minutes but offers good training opportunities in Meteor Falls.
Level on par with Victory Road Pokemon, overleveled boost makes this easier to train in the first fights but to contribute you have to evolve soon.
Still requires serious effort to get Salamence before Elite4(wouldn´t do). Eviolite Shelgon does well enough against many late game foes, to not forcefully grind to 50, e.g. some Victory Road trainers + Sydney and Phoebe.
Dragon typing is obviously not great against Glacia, but can do a bit of work against Drake.
Gave me an enjoyable experience, would use it again. C tier is the upper limit imo.
It´s just that I don´t agree with some lines dropped in many posts that late arrival makes the contributions less worthy, I disagree there.
That´s why I wish for the future discussion to consider the point of arrival a minor(less important) point compared to effort you need to put into getting the Pokemon/getting it to a level where it can contribute.
Of course Norman, Winona and Tate/Liza would be very positive matchups to consider the backtracking from Mauville on and we rank it A anyway.
Back on ratings:
I agree on Trapinch above E, D feels right. Very annoying to grind without Eviolite. Delaying evolution is still the best strategy to level up fast but this option comes late at 35. Would appreciate DexNav abuse for higher level a lot. Coming after Flannery hurts a lot.
Not being able to contribute in Petalburg and Fortree is troublesome. The payoff is not even closely comparable to other grind monster like Gardevoir, even though its in the medium fast group.
Doing well against Team Magma and Tate and Liza have been the only somewhat noticeable contributions. Would still say that Trapinch has a better Kill rate than Luvdisc ;)
Staying with the dragons:
Bagon: Easy capture after Wallace, requires detour of 10 minutes but offers good training opportunities in Meteor Falls.
Level on par with Victory Road Pokemon, overleveled boost makes this easier to train in the first fights but to contribute you have to evolve soon.
Still requires serious effort to get Salamence before Elite4(wouldn´t do). Eviolite Shelgon does well enough against many late game foes, to not forcefully grind to 50, e.g. some Victory Road trainers + Sydney and Phoebe.
Dragon typing is obviously not great against Glacia, but can do a bit of work against Drake.
Gave me an enjoyable experience, would use it again. C tier is the upper limit imo.
I used Shuppet on my last run, and agree with moving it to B. It's evolution isn't far off from when you get it, and it has good places to train in Mt. Pyre and Tate/Liza's gym. As a Shuppet, it's below average but usable, which means getting to level 37 isn't a chore. Once it's evolves, you should already have its mega stone, which means it hits its maximum power pretty quickly. In the E4, it can beat Phoebe, Glacia's Frosslass (Sucker Punch), and potentially Steven's Metagross. Priority WoW also means it can contribute against powerhouses like Drake's Salamence should you be underleveled or lack better options. However, late access, poor Team Aqua/Magma matchups, and dependence on Mega Evolution mean I wouldn't object strongly if it stayed where it is.
Trapinch to D is fine, it's certainly better than the likes of Luvdisk, but it has basically no good matchups until Steven and maybe Drake, depending on your Speed. Trapinch is fine early, but getting it all the way to lv 35 a chore. Vibrava is underwhelming as well, and the payoff as a Flygon isn't worth carrying around a bad pokemon for 80% of the game.
I think Bagon should stay in D. Meteor Falls is a pretty big detour, and Eviolite Shelgon isn't good enough to make up for it. Its bulk is good, but it's still painfully slow, has a just "above-average" Attack stat, and has a poor in-game STAB. In order to get Salamence, you'd need to grind to a ridiculous extent (remember, Slow EXP group), and probably use it a ton against Sydney and Phoebe, both of which would be ridiculously inefficient. Even if you leave it as a Bagon for the extra EXP, it'll still take forever since Bagon is weak as hell, meaning you'll need to do a lead-and-switch strategy, which also takes forever. Salamence requires way too much grinding for C, Shelgon comes too late and is too mediocre for C, and both are super out of the way.
Trapinch to D is fine, it's certainly better than the likes of Luvdisk, but it has basically no good matchups until Steven and maybe Drake, depending on your Speed. Trapinch is fine early, but getting it all the way to lv 35 a chore. Vibrava is underwhelming as well, and the payoff as a Flygon isn't worth carrying around a bad pokemon for 80% of the game.
I think Bagon should stay in D. Meteor Falls is a pretty big detour, and Eviolite Shelgon isn't good enough to make up for it. Its bulk is good, but it's still painfully slow, has a just "above-average" Attack stat, and has a poor in-game STAB. In order to get Salamence, you'd need to grind to a ridiculous extent (remember, Slow EXP group), and probably use it a ton against Sydney and Phoebe, both of which would be ridiculously inefficient. Even if you leave it as a Bagon for the extra EXP, it'll still take forever since Bagon is weak as hell, meaning you'll need to do a lead-and-switch strategy, which also takes forever. Salamence requires way too much grinding for C, Shelgon comes too late and is too mediocre for C, and both are super out of the way.
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