ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

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Colonel M

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Masquerain is probably okay for B but I think I should address a lot of issues presented in the analysis and correct them.

- Routes like Sea Mauville are really easy to skip as are a lot of trainers. I am not going to assume we skip every trainer but it is not unreasonable to skip a couple of them. The same with routes. This makes Ice Beam a high opportunity cost.

- I feel we are severely underestimating Surskit and Masquerain's mediocrity in general. While Quiver Dance gives it an offensive push and Intimidate helps it set up Masquerain is still plagued by lack of type advantages in gyms. Sturdy screws up Surskit a bit and Bubble is only so strong versus Nosepass. Surskit has no advantage against Brawly. Surskit absolutely sucks against Wattson. Flannery is a shoddy match up IMO - unSTAB Bubblebeam probably wont even 2HKO Torkoal and good fucking luck setting up Quiver Dances without making Slugma blow Overheat quickly and sunlight is out of play. Masquerain could participate in a slow strategy against Norman thanks to Intimidate but that is really pushing it. Dont even bother vs Winona. Tate and Liza is Masquerain's better match up since Intimidate cuts Solrock's STAB Rock Slide (which is forced to be cut in half in a double battle). Probably could muscle through Wallace since Luvdisc is piss weak.

In the Elite 4 the only advantage is Sydney without a huge time sink for Ice Beam. I guess Bug Buzz is okay versus Cradily and Claydol but still - really bad.

Assuming about 5-10 (hell even 15) levels below the E4 isnt hard at all. It is pretty common even on smaller teams. Larger teams make the gap that much worse.

I think Masquerain is an okay Pokemon but hell I almost would rather use Wingull over it and even Shroomish as examples of Pokemon that are teetering in B to C range.
 
The best "field" Pokemon for me is Crobat, nothing really resists Stab Acrobatics and the lvl 23 evolution was amazing (I just use one protein found near 2nd gym + one massage, maybe that wasn't needed)

Numel disappointed me too, but I used him also in the Fire gym and of course, he destroys Norman's Slakings with Dig (Dig + Truant = Immunity)
Dig vs. Slakings works, but you might lose all your PP without really killing anyone considering how physically bulky these guys are.

Frankly speaking, as long as you can take exactly one hit from a Slaking, you should do fine with an offensive strat involving a fighting-type or a strong special attacker. Just do something about that 2nd Slaking's Retaliate upon its switch-in.

Acrobatics on Crobat has kind of a late arrival at L35 I think... But its field clean-up capacity is quite comparable to Kadabra, though definitely worse than Mega Manectric's.

Speaking of Kadabra, any testers of this one? I did use an unevolved Kadabra back in X/Y, and it repeatedly failed (or struggled) to take down the powerful fighting-types thrown at you throughout the whole game in caves and the like, even with Reflect and Calm Mind - one difference in these games is that Psychic is learnt a good deal earlier. At the same time however, the game is shorter so you're finishing with Psychic learnt rather late anyway and close enough to the Pokemon League's timely completion.

I'm not buying A tier for it for this very reason. Alakazam is way bulkier than Kadabra, and the power boost coming from the mega evolution it will forego taking hits from a lot of Pokemon entirely. I believe it wouldn't be a stretch for these two to be separated by two tiers and not one.
 
Masquerain is probably okay for B but I think I should address a lot of issues presented in the analysis and correct them.

- Routes like Sea Mauville are really easy to skip as are a lot of trainers. I am not going to assume we skip every trainer but it is not unreasonable to skip a couple of them. The same with routes. This makes Ice Beam a high opportunity cost.

- I feel we are severely underestimating Surskit and Masquerain's mediocrity in general. While Quiver Dance gives it an offensive push and Intimidate helps it set up Masquerain is still plagued by lack of type advantages in gyms. Sturdy screws up Surskit a bit and Bubble is only so strong versus Nosepass. Surskit has no advantage against Brawly. Surskit absolutely sucks against Wattson. Flannery is a shoddy match up IMO - unSTAB Bubblebeam probably wont even 2HKO Torkoal and good fucking luck setting up Quiver Dances without making Slugma blow Overheat quickly and sunlight is out of play. Masquerain could participate in a slow strategy against Norman thanks to Intimidate but that is really pushing it. Dont even bother vs Winona. Tate and Liza is Masquerain's better match up since Intimidate cuts Solrock's STAB Rock Slide (which is forced to be cut in half in a double battle). Probably could muscle through Wallace since Luvdisc is piss weak.

In the Elite 4 the only advantage is Sydney without a huge time sink for Ice Beam. I guess Bug Buzz is okay versus Cradily and Claydol but still - really bad.

Assuming about 5-10 (hell even 15) levels below the E4 isnt hard at all. It is pretty common even on smaller teams. Larger teams make the gap that much worse.

I think Masquerain is an okay Pokemon but hell I almost would rather use Wingull over it and even Shroomish as examples of Pokemon that are teetering in B to C range.
I definitely don't want to sound rude, but i think you didn't read my two posts well enough. At least some parts of them.

First of all, i keep asking which of these things can't be said about Beautifly too. Does she deserve a higher tier just because of the Brawly matchup?
If we're not supposed to comparate Pokèmon to rate them, then your sentence "I'd rather use a Pelipper or a Shroomish" otherwise legitimate in a complete optimization scenario, is rather pointless.

Masquerain:
I judged every Gym Leader performance in my first post and already stated there that Roxanne is a bad matchup for Surskit while Brawly is meh at best. No point in using him versus Wattson and Winona either. There are the 3/8 bad and 1/8 average GL matchups.
With Flannery i said that you shouldn't setup on Slugma. Imo not much because of Overheat but because of Rock Slide (or whatever its rock move is, can't remember now). If she sends Numel, that's the one to setup on. Remember Masq has access to Water Sport.
For Torkoal, actually SE Bubble Beam is a bit worse than STAB Bug Buzz. 130 vs 135 base power. That's not gonna make a big difference, still it's worth noting.
Flannery can be an average matchup too, just because of the fact that she randomly sends out Torkoal or Numel after Slugma.
How is Norman "pushing it"? The first Slaking's Retaliate is a 3HKO after Intimidate assuming Masq to be LV24-25 (and also assuming Slaking won't go for Encore even once since he seems to like it a lot). And he has Truant. That looks a like a great setup occasion to me if you ask it.

Beautifly:
VS Roxanne: Has non-STAB Absorb and 4x to Rock Throw. Pretty much as bad a matchup as Surskit's.
VS Brawly: She rocks him, I already said it.
VS Wattson: Same as Surskit.
VS Flannery: Has no Water Sport, no Bubble Beam, no QD, no Bug Buzz. Masq could just Water Sport then switch to a better member if you don't feel like risking using it, Beautifly can't.
VS Norman: No QD, no Bug Buzz = no sweeping occasion.
VS Wallace: Has non-stab Giga Drain and needs LV40 to have QD. If the 10-15 lvl difference is that realistic she's not gonna have it in time without training i think.

So that's 1 GL performance better than Surskit (Brawly), 3 worse (Flannery, Norman and Wallace) and the other 4 are pretty much equal.

As far as the Ice Beam argument goes, i think most of team comps are going to "time sink" to get it just by knowing that Drake is part of Elite 4. I'm not talking about Marill (S Tier), but if your Water type is, say, Staryu (A Tier) or Lotad (B Tier), aren't you gonna go and grab that Ice Beam anyway?
Honestly the time required to get a TM does seem rather pointless to me judging by the guidelines posted by OP, since the argument could be extended at many other pokèmon it would get a bit out of control.
Calling Ice Beam a "huge time sink" to me sounds as exaggerate as me stating that Masq could maybe be A-tier in my first post.

Also, at least Masquerain CAN use Ice Beam. Beautifly can't.
 
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If we still consider 4% encounter rate Level 3 Ralts worth Tier A or B, we shouldn´t even start to consider TM 13 Ice Beam a detour.
The new fly mechanics make it quite fast to get to Sea Mauville. This also applies for reaching the specific fishing spots for every Super Rod Pokemon.

On the Masquerain topic: It should easily setup on Slugmas non STAB base 40 att Rock Throw, just as much as it can setup on base 70att Aerial Ace from Drakes Altaria (btw also sets up against Winonas Altaria which lacks fly stab), but it is quite inefficient as you definitely need more than two Quiver Dances to sweep. The longer and more often you need to set up the higher the chance for unlikely events to occur => crits secondary effects and so on have a much higher influence on Pokemon with Masquerainesque performance, so it is less efficient and is more like Limbo B/C.
 
I definitely don't want to sound rude, but i think you didn't read my two posts well enough. At least some parts of them.

First of all, i keep asking which of these things can't be said about Beautifly too. Does she deserve a higher tier just because of the Brawly matchup?
If we're not supposed to comparate Pokèmon to rate them, then your sentence "I'd rather use a Pelipper or a Shroomish" otherwise legitimate in a complete optimization scenario, is rather pointless.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in the "Surskit to B" camp (and so far no one has raised any big objections), but you're pushing it way too hard. Colonel M even said that that he doesn't have a problem with the tier shift, just that you still have to acknowledge Surskit's weaknesses, and there are a good amount of them. I know he's one of your favorites, but take off the rose colored glasses for a bit. Masquerain, even with Ice Beam, won't do much in the E4 except against Sydney. Masquerain just doesn't have the bulk to set up multiple Quiver Dances unless overleveled. Basically, by choosing Surskit over Beautifly you're trading effectiveness against Brawley (and lets be honest, Surskit vs Brawley is massive set up fodder) and a much better levels 10-20ish. In exchange, you get a better field pokemon, a better performance against Flannery, and a smaller late-game drop-off. Do I think that's an even trade-off? Yes. However, let's not pretend that Masquerain is this late-game monster, since it's not. In addition, Masquerain is highly Heart Scale dependent, so even if without considering Ice Beam, it's still competing for time and resources.

Also, I'd argue that Wallace is basically even. Lv 40 for Wallace isn't unreasonable, and both of them can set up on Luvdisk easily.
EDIT: As for Norman, keep in mind that if he uses Yawn even once, all your boosts (assuming you bothered to get a Heart Scale by then) will have gone to waste and you'll need to switch out or be put to sleep. It may have a better matchup than Beautifly's but it's still not that good -inefficient but doable, at best.
 
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Dig vs. Slakings works, but you might lose all your PP without really killing anyone considering how physically bulky these guys are.

Frankly speaking, as long as you can take exactly one hit from a Slaking, you should do fine with an offensive strat involving a fighting-type or a strong special attacker. Just do something about that 2nd Slaking's Retaliate upon its switch-in.

Acrobatics on Crobat has kind of a late arrival at L35 I think... But its field clean-up capacity is quite comparable to Kadabra, though definitely worse than Mega Manectric's.

Speaking of Kadabra, any testers of this one? I did use an unevolved Kadabra back in X/Y, and it repeatedly failed (or struggled) to take down the powerful fighting-types thrown at you throughout the whole game in caves and the like, even with Reflect and Calm Mind - one difference in these games is that Psychic is learnt a good deal earlier. At the same time however, the game is shorter so you're finishing with Psychic learnt rather late anyway and close enough to the Pokemon League's timely completion.

I'm not buying A tier for it for this very reason. Alakazam is way bulkier than Kadabra, and the power boost coming from the mega evolution it will forego taking hits from a lot of Pokemon entirely. I believe it wouldn't be a stretch for these two to be separated by two tiers and not one.
I agree. As much as I love Kadabra he's not as useful in-game as he was in DPPt/HGSS.

The jump to Alakazam might not seem like too much, but the power is just enough to land some OHKO's. I found Kadabra just barely missing OHKO's on Pokemon he hit neutrally, while Alakazam secured them.
 

Colonel M

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Im on my phone so lets get some things straight shall we?
I definitely don't want to sound rude, but i think you didn't read my two posts well enough. At least some parts of them.

First of all, i keep asking which of these things can't be said about Beautifly too. Does she deserve a higher tier just because of the Brawly matchup?
Put bluntly I wouldnt use Beautifly just because it has a hard time making its presence known outside of Brawly and some field battles (like Lucchini mentioned Beautifly is somewhat buffed in this game). I personally find it C like Masquerain but I could maybe buy both B since theyre so so.
If we're not supposed to comparate Pokèmon to rate them, then your sentence "I'd rather use a Pelipper or a Shroomish" otherwise legitimate in a complete optimization scenario, is rather pointless.
There is some form of validity to what I said because these are Pokemon within Masquerain's tier placement (Wingull is B and Shroomish is about Bish range IMO). These Pokemon are fairly comparable in that sense. I did not say Masquerain is inferior to Blaziken - a statement which is true but is thrown out because it is common knowledge and the goal is not to sandbag a Pokemon X because Y exists.
Masquerain:
I judged every Gym Leader performance in my first post and already stated there that Roxanne is a bad matchup for Surskit while Brawly is meh at best. No point in using him versus Wattson and Winona either. There are the 3/8 bad and 1/8 average GL matchups.
This is where problems arise though. Surskit is a Pokemon that is available early and can barely shine while it is around. Even in field matchups it is mediocre. When you cant scratch much of a field presence nor a gym presence your existence is likely negative.
With Flannery i said that you shouldn't setup on Slugma. Imo not much because of Overheat but because of Rock Slide (or whatever its rock move is, can't remember now). If she sends Numel, that's the one to setup on. Remember Masq has access to Water Sport.
It's Rock Throw. It's a 3HKO, but otherwise...

I guess you could set up on Numel if you had Water Sport. Though now we might have to argue three Heart Scales for Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz, and probably Air Cutter after you're done with Flannery.
For Torkoal, actually SE Bubble Beam is a bit worse than STAB Bug Buzz. 130 vs 135 base power. That's not gonna make a big difference, still it's worth noting.
Flannery can be an average matchup too, just because of the fact that she randomly sends out Torkoal or Numel after Slugma.
Uh. SE Bubblebeam is much stronger than Bug Buzz on Torkoal lol. Resistances OP.
How is Norman "pushing it"? The first Slaking's Retaliate is a 3HKO after Intimidate assuming Masq to be LV24-25 (and also assuming Slaking won't go for Encore even once since he seems to like it a lot). And he has Truant. That looks a like a great setup occasion to me if you ask it.
I'm calculating a 2HKO after Intimidate and a Masquerain roughly about his level (82% chance to 2HKO too). That is really pushing it when you're very prone to a critical hit too. Though Encore shenanigans could happen so could Yawn - which could waste a couple turns.

I want to point out this is probably not -as bad- as some Pokemon in this gym, but it's kind of pushing it. It takes about a +3 Bug Buzz to 2HKO that Slaking - and you probably want to set up all the way to prevent being nailed later by the higher leveled Slaking.
Beautifly:
VS Roxanne: Has non-STAB Absorb and 4x to Rock Throw. Pretty much as bad a matchup as Surskit's.
VS Brawly: She rocks him, I already said it.
VS Wattson: Same as Surskit.
VS Flannery: Has no Water Sport, no Bubble Beam, no QD, no Bug Buzz. Masq could just Water Sport then switch to a better member if you don't feel like risking using it, Beautifly can't.
VS Norman: No QD, no Bug Buzz = no sweeping occasion.
VS Wallace: Has non-stab Giga Drain and needs LV40 to have QD. If the 10-15 lvl difference is that realistic she's not gonna have it in time without training i think.
I would like to note that I was able to hit 40s around Wallace - just afterwards I didn't get much higher (about Level 45). So it -is- possible to have Quiver Dance here for Beautifly.
So that's 1 GL performance better than Surskit (Brawly), 3 worse (Flannery, Norman and Wallace) and the other 4 are pretty much equal.
I would say about one and a half worse (Norman for sure, Wallace is so-so).
As far as the Ice Beam argument goes, i think most of team comps are going to "time sink" to get it just by knowing that Drake is part of Elite 4. I'm not talking about Marill (S Tier), but if your Water type is, say, Staryu (A Tier) or Lotad (B Tier), aren't you gonna go and grab that Ice Beam anyway?
Honestly the time required to get a TM does seem rather pointless to me judging by the guidelines posted by OP, since the argument could be extended at many other pokèmon it would get a bit out of control.
Calling Ice Beam a "huge time sink" to me sounds as exaggerate as me stating that Masq could maybe be A-tier in my first post.
It is so far from an exaggeration that it is pretty hard to believe that you think that getting Ice Beam for one fight is crucial. Let's review - Water-types probably barely care about having Ice Beam just for Drake. There are so many better alternatives to beating Drake that I can't even keep it on one hand - you can use the Primals, Mega Lati@s if trained, Gyarados after some levels, etc. Ice Beam doesn't really save time by the time you get it even if you went all the way back for it with Dive.

Drop it. Seriously. You're arguing roughly a 20 minute detour for absolutely no reason.
Also, at least Masquerain CAN use Ice Beam. Beautifly can't.
No one (should honestly) care. Beautifly can use Giga Drain. Masquerain can't. It's almost irrelevant since Ice Beam shouldn't even be assumed and Masq's Water-type moves are only so-so after it evolves (as is Mega Drain on Beautifly but Giga Drain is -okay- vs Wallace and the swim routes. That's about it).
If we still consider 4% encounter rate Level 3 Ralts worth Tier A or B, we shouldn´t even start to consider TM 13 Ice Beam a detour.
The grand irony of your post is that Surskit has an even lower chance of encounter. But we don't care about encounter rates in this tier list. The assumption is you find the Pokemon on your way through the game and, if you so, choose to use it.

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I think we can conclude that Masquerain and Beautifly are probably comparable enough to be in the same tier. Whether C or B I don't really care. B is probably fine because I can at least see some situations where Masquerain can pull ahead with a little support. I do question its usefulness especially lategame where it is very reliant on Quiver Dance, but honestly so is Beautifly and there are some perks Masq has that Beautifly doesn't. Let's just not blow this out of proportion like assuming Ice Beam - a TM that probably takes about 20 minutes extra to save less than a minute.

Though I also want to think more about Beautifly in C myself because some good points were brought up against it. Beautifly, in comparison to Masquerain, really doesn't have any advantages barring an earlier evolution (which in turn is an easier time from that point on) but both have awkward moments (Surskit is stuck with STAB Bubble until Level 17 which is okay but not great then lolWurmple/Silcoon).
 
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Colonel M you should probably read the whole Masquerain discussion to see why we are still considering 1% a waste of time and do not skip the discussion about availability, just like we never did that in former tier lists.
And please consider me a C tier voter for Surskit, I thought that it has been clear with my assessment of the unlikely happenings for such setup reliant Pokemon.

Short Detour: Opposed to Ralts, the Surskit encounter that was brought up to give reason for its usability is a 100% encounter with sneaking after the May cutscene and most likely has Fell Stinger instead of Bubble, but you can use SearchNav afterwards to get a Surskit with Bubble and are done in 1 minute without detour.

Note: this whole discussion was often guided with DexNav encounter in mind which we didn´t want to abuse in the first place, even if it takes only 5 minutes to get a higher leveled Pokemon with potential egg moves. Maybe something has shifted and needs discussion.
Otherwise I think it is great to discuss Pokemon that were brought up in the current slate, as that will save time and pages.
A smaller slate(e.g. 4 in Megas for all) with more or less short deadlines has proven to be successful in other projects, could be worth a trial to make the discussion fast forward and not have a whole page with Masquerain, even though it´s a cool wannabe WaterBug.
 

Colonel M

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Colonel M you should probably read the whole Masquerain discussion to see why we are still considering 1% a waste of time and do not skip the discussion about availability, just like we never did that in former tier lists.

Short Detour: Opposed to Ralts, the Surskit encounter that was brought up to give reason for its usability is a 100% encounter with sneaking after the May cutscene and most likely has Fell Stinger instead of Bubble, but you can use SearchNav afterwards to get a Surskit with Bubble and are done in 1 minute without detour.
Again, it's mostly irrelevant. With the DexNav in general it is easier to find strings of Pokemon anyway - I mean finding Surskit isn't immediate IIRC (I think the chain actually starts with Charm Zigzagoon, Teeter Dance Lotad / Something Seedot, then IIRC Fell Stinger Surskit). Either way I remember that Surskit is not the first in the chain because I was pissed at getting Charm Zigzagoon not once, but twice.

Regardless, you're talking to the person who doesn't care about Ralts and Surskit's availability. I'm talking about the direct comparison made between Ralt's encounter rate and the obtaining of TM 13 Ice Beam. One, though by chance, still can likely not cost us much time (if any at all). Ice Beam is guaranteed to cost us a good chunk of time whether it is liked or not.

Ergo, the comparison between Ralts and Ice Beam are two different scenarios - unfavorable to Ice Beam I may add.
 

Its_A_Random

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What makes Sableye D? Is it just too weak, even with the Mega (which takes up another mega slot)?
Not available until you get the Mach Bike in Mauville, slow, two unhelpful abilities, not much in the way of good matchups though it has a natural Detect for Norman (albeit 5 PP >_>) and has a natural advantage against Liza and Tate, and it just has subpar stats; Base 75 Attack can only go so far. When you finally get your Primal you get the Mega Stone which makes it outsped by everything and while bulky is reliant on setup to be effective and in an In-Game Tier List, offence is king; if you cannot hit hard enough then you are not good enough.

It is not completely useless and has a few good perks that make it good enough for D however.
 
What makes Sableye D? Is it just too weak, even with the Mega (which takes up another mega slot)?
Sableye is slow, misses its previous best match up, (Brawly) requires backtracking and the Mach Bike, and effectively hits like a wet paper bag outside of Foul Play. The Sablite isn't obtainable until Sootopolis, and makes it even slower for only so much of a gain. (Magic Bounce has its uses, but not many trainers will be using status moves to abuse it with) With it's greatly heightened Defense, it may be able to survive the heavy hitters of the Elite Four and smack them back with Foul Play, but it'll also be chugging Potions like crazy.

Of course, I'd love to hear the opinion of someone how actually has tried to use Sableye and see if this is at all accurate.
 
Again, it's mostly irrelevant. With the DexNav in general it is easier to find strings of Pokemon anyway - I mean finding Surskit isn't immediate IIRC (I think the chain actually starts with Charm Zigzagoon, Teeter Dance Lotad / Something Seedot, then IIRC Fell Stinger Surskit). Either way I remember that Surskit is not the first in the chain because I was pissed at getting Charm Zigzagoon not once, but twice.

Regardless, you're talking to the person who doesn't care about Ralts and Surskit's availability. I'm talking about the direct comparison made between Ralt's encounter rate and the obtaining of TM 13 Ice Beam. One, though by chance, still can likely not cost us much time (if any at all). Ice Beam is guaranteed to cost us a good chunk of time whether it is liked or not.

Ergo, the comparison between Ralts and Ice Beam are two different scenarios - unfavorable to Ice Beam I may add.
I get what you think but that is quite false actually. Getting a decent Ralts is guaranteed to be a huge time sink (I can give you an insight on the statistic evaluation on low probability events but that might get too far at this point), this includes the capture and the time you add to your run to switch train it.
The reason to bring it up is the considered effectiveness of using Ralts (A rank), which gives a hint at what we are willing to accept for an efficient run.

Ice Beam opens up a broad range of usable Pokemon to use in against a notable enemy, which is preferable over limiting our choice to the Pokemon you mentioned before. This list cannot assume that we always want to use Lati@s or Gyarados, even if that might be a great way to get around Drake as well.

Needing IceBeam for that fight makes a Pokemon less effective than a Pokemon that does not need it, that´s where we can agree.
Not even having a possibility to fight against Drake makes a Pokemon more inefficient though, especially if it comes lategame.
Also IceBeam will guarantee Lati@s to win whereas DragonBreath does not, it´s just too weak and misses the 4x weakness, this is useful to think about for many other Pokemon as well

tlrd: TM13 IceBeam needs time to get, but can be valuable enough to guarantee a Pokemon to not be irrelevant in an important fight.
Pokemon that need IceBeam for Drake are less efficient than those that don´t need it but more efficient than Pokemon that do not get any move to beat Drake conveniently.
 
Sableye is slow, misses its previous best match up, (Brawly) requires backtracking and the Mach Bike, and effectively hits like a wet paper bag outside of Foul Play. The Sablite isn't obtainable until Sootopolis, and makes it even slower for only so much of a gain. (Magic Bounce has its uses, but not many trainers will be using status moves to abuse it with) With it's greatly heightened Defense, it may be able to survive the heavy hitters of the Elite Four and smack them back with Foul Play, but it'll also be chugging Potions like crazy.

Of course, I'd love to hear the opinion of someone how actually has tried to use Sableye and see if this is at all accurate.
I used Sableye in my first playthrough of AS. I don't have time to back this up with calcs but I can provide some anecdotal evidence. I also know we don't conmpare mons for tiering here but I'm going to compare it to the other members of the team I used as to how it performed so I can get a better idea fo its tier placement.

Backtracking to Sableye really isn't too tedious, it takes maybe 5 minutes total? It isn't efficient though and I'll recognize that. Once I obtained it it performed fairly well--no great matchups but nothing particularly bad. Unfortunately, from there it starts to go downhill gradually, and though it has a decent movepool throught the game (getting Detect, Ghost and Dark STAB, Dazzling Gleam, Fighting coverage, etc) it usually finds itself still 2HKOing at best. Once you get its very late-game mega I'll admit it starts carrying tis weigth again. No, it's not a sweeping machine but the power difference is very noticeable, and it's bulky to survive many neutral hits. It really shines at the very endgame, where I found it has great matchups versus Wally (Gallade can't even hit it lol) and the Elite Four with its bulk, Magic Bounce and coverage moves.

As for tier placement ... well I also used Mudkip (S tier), Electrike (A tier), Lotad (B tier), Anorith (D tier), and the event Beldum (obviously untiered). I'm just going to sort of compare tit o how everyone else perfomed and say it did consistently better than Anorith (and was even obtained far earlier), and just slightly less than Lotad for much of the game (Lotad has serious struggles for a while before getting the Water Stone). D tier feels a little low, I'd optimistically say C tier is more appropriate from using Sableye but TBH I wouldn't fight D a whole lot.
 
Sorry for disrupting the discussion a little bit, but what is the general opinion on ingame trades? They are easier to train, but "easier to train" reminds me of exp share...

(Also Surskit for C, that thing is super slow in the beginning)
 
Again, it's mostly irrelevant. With the DexNav in general it is easier to find strings of Pokemon anyway - I mean finding Surskit isn't immediate IIRC (I think the chain actually starts with Charm Zigzagoon, Teeter Dance Lotad / Something Seedot, then IIRC Fell Stinger Surskit). Either way I remember that Surskit is not the first in the chain because I was pissed at getting Charm Zigzagoon not once, but twice.
tl;dr If Beat Up Seedot is a fixed DexNav poke like Poochyena, then that may merit Beat Up Seedot enough for an A ranking.
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I just started a new playthrough of Omega Ruby and remembered this post as I was catching a Beat Up Seedot and Fell Stinger Surskit on Route 102. They were the first two Pokémon to appear on my DexNav, and it made me wonder if I had missed the Charm ZigZagoon. So, I saved my game and started looking around the area for it. I found it at the northeast patch of grass near the small lake. It was a little suspicious that the Charm Zigzagoon would be in the same patch of grass as my first run, as well as the Fell Stinger Surskit in the same place that I had caught it on my first run (sorry Seedot, don't remember exactly where you were caught first run, just that it was Route 102).

After a few soft resets, I discovered that the Charm Zigzagoon was still in the same patch of grass on the DexNav whenever I approached the area from the south. Approaching the grass from the ledge hop to the west didn't do anything until I moved south of the patch, so I suspect that the Charm Zigzagoon is a triggered DexNav spot rather than a random one, just like with the Elemental Fanged Poochyena from Route 101. If that's the case, I also suspect that finding Fell Stinger Surskit and Beat Up Seedot were no mere coincidences, either.

If anyone else can confirm similar behaviors with their OR/AS save files, that'd be great. Why? Because then the Charm Zigzagoon, Fell Stinger Surskit, and Beat Up Seedot/Teeter Dance Lotad would be counted as exclusive like the Poochyena and could possibly separate their in-game viability from their randomly-encountered counterparts (well, not so much the Charm ZigZagoon).

I'd especially make a special note to the Beat Up Seedot. With a full party (which isn't hard to attain, since May gives you plenty of Poké Balls to make one), Beat Up makes Seedot a lot less tedious to raise than if it didn't have the move, plus it provides Nuzleaf with Dark STAB right away rather than at Lv. 24, Faint Attack. It makes the early game with Seedot less cumbersome at the very least, and so it might make Seedot an A in in-game viability than a B .
 
Sorry for disrupting the discussion a little bit, but what is the general opinion on ingame trades? They are easier to train, but "easier to train" reminds me of exp share...

(Also Surskit for C, that thing is super slow in the beginning)
As far as I know, the only trade it would really matter for is Makuhita. Corsola is awful, out of the way, and obtained late, while Skitty is still garbage, even with the increase in EXP. You could make an argument that it gives a boost to Makuhita, but it's already in A and I don't think the extra EXP is enough to justify it moving to S.
 
I see, so trades aren't an option anyways.

Beat Up Seedot raised my curiousity however, as my brother also got a Beat Up Seedot and told me"Hey, Seedot has a better starting move"(he forgot to say it is Dexnav, lel)...and after he replayed he caught it again, it is 100% a forced encounter...

Guys, Beat Up works like this basically:

(Pokemon Base Stat Attack / 10) +5
The +5 is what is important(and new to Gen 6?):
Seedot has 40 base attack(4+5), Nuz has 70 base attack(7+5), Shift has 100 base attack (10+5)

Seedot with 6 Pokemon on team has a base 54 attack. Not bad!
Evolution with 6 Pokemon on team has a base 72 attack. That's awesome!
Last Evolution with 6 Pokemon on team has a base 90 attack. Yuss!

I wonder if the animation is to long or something, otherwise that's good news.
 
I'm going to agree that it's likely that those encounters are not random. I've only done one playthrough and I got all three before even reaching Petalburg, and the encounter rate seemed much higher than in the rest of the game.
 

Colonel M

GAOOO
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It would be worth investigating but I doubt it would lead to anything game changing (even with Beat Up Seedot IMO).

Also after more thought I think Beautifly and Masquerain should just share the same tier in C. If a tier gap is wanted, throw Beautifly in D but I really doubt that should happen.
 
Sableye is slow, misses its previous best match up, (Brawly) requires backtracking and the Mach Bike, and effectively hits like a wet paper bag outside of Foul Play. The Sablite isn't obtainable until Sootopolis, and makes it even slower for only so much of a gain. (Magic Bounce has its uses, but not many trainers will be using status moves to abuse it with) With it's greatly heightened Defense, it may be able to survive the heavy hitters of the Elite Four and smack them back with Foul Play, but it'll also be chugging Potions like crazy.

Of course, I'd love to hear the opinion of someone how actually has tried to use Sableye and see if this is at all accurate.
I actually used a Sableye for my run of the game.
It was...not terrible? Yeah I was shocked too. Incidentally, my team was Alakazam (never used its mega), Sceptile (mega), Manectric (mega), Ludicolo (fuck you), Sableye, Exploud.

Having instant access to Shadow Claw helped a lot and its base offenses are o...de...kind of pretty okay at times. There were a surprising amount of times I was able to use it for 2hkos on randos. He was also able to take more hits than I thought he would, most often he'd at least be able to take 2-3 hits before going down. My moveset for the bulk of the game was Shadow Claw/Fake Out/Power Up Punch (I was a dumb and forgot to switch it to Brick Break)/Knock Off. Knock Off -> Foul Play.
Gym performance was also not bad. I used him in Wattson's gym since Shadow Claw got around the steel weakness and he also had access to Power up Punch. An unfortunate crit took him out when Voltorb came out but still! Absolutely nothing in Norman's gym can hit him and he had Knock Off for stab offense (and Power up Punch which eh); he was my star in the actual battle as well since it turns out he can take 3 Faint Attacks from Slaking before being knocked out. Not the fastest knock out though. Gym 6 was so-so, but I had other mons anyway. He did good in the actual GYM of Liza & Tate but they ganged up on him and got a crit so that...didn't go well (the entire battle was kind of a disaster...). By gym 8 I had his mega; no SE strikes had him be lackluster though.

I suppose I should talk about his mega at this point. The increased defenses are incredibly useful. I had like 4 megas on my team but I'd often go to Mega Sableye because I knew he could take hits and deal some ever so slightly better damage. Really the lack of exceptionally increased offenses is the most unfortunate part about it. The "potion chugging" comment is funny because I never really used more potions on sableye than any other mon.

I didnt use him aside from a brief fake out/power up punch interlude in Sidney's battle. Phoebe was great since he could fling out Foul Plays and such (he took hits from Dusknoir just fine, Banettes were a one hit ko, didnt use him against the other sableye or dusclops). Glacia was a disaster for reasons unrelated to him and I think in the end I didn't use him aside from taking hits. Drake he helped clean up the Salamence but was critted. Steven: Surprisingly okay, relatively. Helped bruise Skarmory, Claydol, Cradily (god fuck this cradily let me--), and last minute stall against Metagross.

Other assorted notes:
-Keen Eye was surprisingly useful. There's a few pokemon that always love evasion and this helps get around that. I believe I used it against the Mt Chimney Shelly battle, for example. Helps with the desert if you go through there and beating up things with sand veil. Would have helepd against Snow Cloak but again, that battle was a disaster
-Sableye completely and totally walls Wally's gallade. He can not harm you. Also he swords danced the first round so Foul Play was a one hit ko.
-I keep saying he had Power up punch, but I didn't use it every battle. If he seemed like the best choice I might use it once or whatever but mostly nah

In the end I was kind of impressed by his performance and I used him infinitely more than sayyyyyyyyy Ludicolo. Who as a lombre was basically dead weight and whom continually disappointed me at every step of the journey (except for Primal Kyogre) for a variety of reasons.

So what I had was a pokemon that perform pretty okay, there's never really a point where he excelled (well, Norman I guess), but I also can't really make a strong argument to have him in C tier. The biggest strike against him is by far getting him. You have to beat up brawly, go to slateport and hte aquarium, march up past a rival battle to mauville, grab the bike, sneak back down (hopefully avoiding the cycle road trainers), go back to the cave and stumble into him. And then hope he doesn't have stall (I spent. So long. Dex navving for a prankster one that I just had to settle on Keen Eyes). Also he's annoying to catch (45 catch rate why) but I dont think we look at that for these lists? Then march all the way back to Mauville.
The mega is a big opportunity cost, too, since depending on the team there's definitely better options and using a defensive (late game!) mega means you have to give up using one of your possible nukes for that battle. I think he's like the only mega available that veers to defense?
 
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Also after more thought I think Beautifly and Masquerain should just share the same tier in C. If a tier gap is wanted, throw Beautifly in D but I really doubt that should happen.
That's OK with me too. My big issue was Beautifly being higher than Masquerain.

As for Beat Up Seedot, I don't think that it's enough of a boost to raise Seedot up to A. I'd place Seedot in the lower end of B (like a B- if we did + and -). Beat Up helps a little, but it's not amazing enough to boost it all the way to A, especially since its power depends on the base Attack of the party (and not everyone uses six pokemon).
 
Yeah, I realized after some playtime that Beat Up alone was reaching too much for an A rank, especially when I completely forgot that TM 46 Thief overshadows Beat Up once you get the TM at Slateport. I don't plan on judging Seedot's viability either since I wanna use Roselia for my current run, so I'll just nod on its current B rank for now.

That being said, I'd like to mention that having Beat Up for the very early game is still worthwhile. The HP stats of the low leveled Pokémon are so low that Beat Up can easily damage opponents, assuming you have a full active party. You don't necessarily have to raise each party member you have, but every little hit from Beat Up adds up quick when you have six hits per strike (i.e. even if Beat UP is only doing 1 HP of damage for each hit, a 12 HP oppoenent is still 2HKO'd). Beat Up lets Seedot fight solo while on its way to becoming Nuzleaf, and that is much more convenient than having to rely on Bide and ally Pokémon to level Seedot up.
 
And to add to your reasoning 11pikabro, I wouldn´t say that damage output is the major issue with Nuzleaf.
Only thing to mention about Hiddenfreezers calc is that you take the base attack of every individual team member, which is beneficial for Seedot but gives lower damage for Nuzleaf for some time.
Nuzleaf is really such a cool bro, but mine got nearly 2HKOed in Roxanne´s gym. This is where the lack of your typical grass draining moves does show very much, now combine that with 70/40 "bulk" and you have a hard time to perform after Wattson. Shiftry is great after Winona though, but most likely a bit under leveled (you can at least Beat Up Winona´s Altaria, might feel great with all the double team/roost shit she does to you ;).
I would agree that B is still a great choice for the original NuzLocke Pokemon.
 
I dropped Beat Up in favour of Feint Attack pretty quickly. A party built entirely around hard physical attackers like Slaking can probably make good use of it, but if it's not built around physicians then it's not worth considering.

Oh, and I still switched my Seedot out all the time when I trained it. It CAN fight on its own, but very poorly, so it's best to let your starter pull it forward until lv. 14. For 10 or so levels, it's quite a burden.

I want to talk about DexNav yet again. The OP says it's banned, and we all probably know what exactly is implied, but can Pokemon that can be efficiently caught 10 levels (i.e. not Rod mons, or water/cave mons which are more annoying to catch in this way) above the normal levels with DexNav have an advantage over others in this tier list? It's kind of a big deal if you catch a lv. 23 Marill instead of a lv. 21 one, and some Pokemon (Seedot is one) can save themselves painful times of training or periods of worthlessness this way.

And let's face it, catching some Pokemon at X+10 level still takes less time than catching some Pokemon period.
 
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