ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

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Colonel M

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Then Altaria comes even later and now you have to grind for happiness to get a full power Return.

Anyway, defending my Whismur claim, to arms!

A lot of people are pointing out Loudred's poor early/mid-game (I'm ignoring Whismur since you are all dead right on that one) but you are forgetting one factor: Echoed Voice. While unimpressive at first, it will 2HKO anything unresisted (40bp followed by 80bp) on the first pokemon and from then on the pseudo-moxie effect kicks in and you start one-shotting the rest (120, 160, 200bp). This allows it to get boss kills that it honestly should not be getting (Flannery's Torkoal, Norman's Slaking's).
I could maybe see this claim being kind of valid with Flannery. Slugma does do a lot with Overheat but it needs Sunny Day to OHKO and Loudred will 2HKO if Slugma uses Sunny Day first. There is a possibility of missing the OHKO on Numel with Echoed Voice, though (62.5% chance to OHKO with 120 BP Echoed Voice assuming a Level 28 Loudred, but I guess one could justify that an extra level or two could secure it and is possible. By the way - the calculation did take Silk Scarf into account. Slugma might ruin it or help Loudred with Light Screen. Anyway, it's hard to really conclude whether Loudred is really victorious. Guess it's better than a lot of Pokemon have to say in this gym I guess, so we'll go with it.

I'm not really sure on how you'll beat Slaking, though. Slaking's Retaliate alone does heavy damage to Loudred and you probably won't get very far in your Echoed Voices without healing Loudred on every loafing turn. Even if you did that Vigoroth or the other Slaking probably would come close to finishing you off (or will). Guess there's always the chance of Slaking wasting a turn with Yawn or Encore, but still Retaliate is probably what the AI will go for.
As for Exploud/Boomburst, you should be marking for Winona range to get it (Norman is way too early for the typical trainer, sorry RegiFlame150). Either right at or shortly after her. You'll have it for a while before Tate & Liza though.
I would not mark Winona range whatsoever. This may be possible on a 3 man team (and if you had a 3 man team please say so); however, around Winona is pretty hard for a 4 man team. I would like to point out - I was about 7 levels below Level 40 when I reached Winona. I admit I had a team of 4.
It's movepool is wide and never lacking at any point in the game. Stomp and Bite come early enough, Bulldoze at Mauville to crush Wattson, Overheat from Flannery (yes, Loudred can use Overheat), then Surf after Norman (and evolving). Add in Shadow Ball/Crunch later (unless you run into a scrappy one but that's DexNav so ignore this) and he's good to go. Has decent HM coverage, so he's a good support-mon in a game where that's more important.
Loudred's movepool is decent but it does come in at awkward times. This mainly applies to Surf and other moves like Flamethrower but Bite doesn't really hit much for SE damage (the rare Kadabra lurking around) at least until around Mt Pyre. Bulldoze, Rock Tomb, PuP, and I guess Overheat come at a good time (though Overheat can be a struggle in some of the routes due to the constant rain. Gamefreak y?). Otherwise you're looking at Stomp and Echoed Voice with the assistance of Secret Power (which probably would replace Stomp due to its superior secondary effects), the moves I mentioned (PuP, Bulldoze, Rock Tomb, Overheat after Gym 4) and that's about it.

Something I do want to point out is that as the game progresses Whismur does get exceptionally better, but I think people are really underestimating the amount of time to get to Exploud too (its EXP growth is not fast either). Like I said - if it's on a 3 man team please let me know so I can sort of re-evaluate.
The speed is a mitigating factor, enough to never support any S-tier claim, and Whismur is underwhelming before evolution.
I think my problem overall with Whismur is that it never really impresses until about Exploud territory. Though Echoed Voice was proven to help here and there (and I confess it can help in longer battles) the middling Speed and so-so durability also hampers its progress. Questionable evolution time also seems to be impending my side of the analysis (not questioning when we get Loudred - I'm questioning when we realistically get Exploud).
 
My team on my most recent run with Whismur was something like 3.5 because I was using Pelipper as the fourth battle 'mon but moved it to surf and fly duty after Norman (and dropped it for HM-slave Wailmer after fighting Groudon).

I also run the gamut of "clearing" routes (or deliberately seeking out and fighting every trainer I can before a gym or HM route blocks me off), meaning that I had also fought all I could on the Sea Mauville route, desert, and everything past Winona until you hit cut-off's (two of those are entirely skippable). So getting to level 40 by the time of FIGHTING Winona wasn't that hard.

Which I guess might not be typical expectations of an in-game run.

I see your arguments and find them hard to refute, since those are indeed Whismur's flaws. I guess it comes down to opinion if that's enough to knock it out of A or not. I guess I see it as a 'mon where your effort is rewarded in little intervals until a big pay-off at Exploud/Boomburst, and after Whismur lacks any period where it is complete dead-weight (and the Whismur stage is thankfully brief).
 

Colonel M

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Going further into stage7_4's post, Swablu is pretty awful in that it has 40 for offensive stats and it doesn't have huge powered STABs to cover for it (Aerial Ace and Secret Power are probably your best - with minor support of Echoed Voice). You're okay once you're Altaria, but getting there is a gigantic pain in the ass.

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On a side note I decided to really think about what A Tier could reside with and such. Using Treecko as a base Pokemon with shoddy stages of the game that are a bit larger than those of Mudkip and Torchic (as examples) probably should be placed here. The problem is, I guess, is that I do confess that I put a higher preference on Pokemon with gym performance than with field performance. This is probably why my analysis of Electrike may seem skewered.

Let's look at the current tier for reference sake:
-A-

Abra (No Trade)

Absol
Carvanha
Corphish
Electrike
Geodude (Golem)
Geodude (No trade)
Groudon
Heracross
Kyogre
Lotad (AS)
Magnemite
Makuhita
Mawile
Meditite
Numel
Ralts (Gardevoir)
Shroomish
Staryu
Treecko
Whismur
Wingull
Zangoose

Thus far I think that Treecko definitely belongs here. It's a Pokemon that just can't quite hold the candle against the other starters but still performs well and above the rest. I think I can agree with Gardevoir here too - though it has phases of mediocrity Gardevoir will usually pick up the slack late game (Odd Incense, though expensive, should secure OHKOes with Psychic against Pokemon like Muk - this was a minor complaint I had with mine). From here the list gets rather shaky - so what I'm going to do is dissect the list and see if the Pokemon is really deserving of A or should look elsewhere to reside.

No Trade Abra

So this is a Pokemon that has justified its use over the years on being extremely powerful. I think Kadabra still holds a big spot here in ORAS, but honestly this is an example of a Pokemon that has a greater field performance than a gym performance. It's kind of tricky to have Kadabra by Brawly - you catch it at Level 12 and you are not allowed to progress towards Slateport until you deliver the letter to Steven. WHICH, in turn, requires Brawly to be defeated to have the maniacs shoved in the way. That aside as a Kadabra it should do massive damage with STAB Confusion and a quick Psybeam at Level 21. Psychic is much later for Kadabra - Level 38 to be precise, but Psybeam helps get through the midway point than Kirlia's STAB Draining Kiss IMO. For TMs Shadow Ball and Grass Knot should cover most things and you could Calm Mind as well if you want.

Though it is lacking Alakazam (and even Mega Alakazam) it still is a rather strong Pokemon with a solid performance against field trainers. Gym matchups aren't a great thing to discuss with Kadabra IMO - non-existent on Brawly and can only hit Voltorb with its STABs. Flannery is kind of dangerous for Kadabra to play around with since it takes an Odd Incense (or if you're really lucky a Twistedspoon) to OHKO Slugma with STAB Psybeam and Overheat does a fuckton (or Light Screen screws up Kadabra). Don't even dream of taking on Norman. It could pick off a Pokemon or two against Winona but I think even Winona is kind of dangerous for it. Kadabra has Shadow Ball for an advantage against Solrock and Lunatone. Team Magma and Aqua it should be fine against Zubat / Grimer / Koffing families and can eventually take on Carvanha / Sharpedo with Grass Knot. Calm Mind / Grass Knot kind of handles Wallace to be honest - I mean Luvdisc is a joke outside of confusion. In the E4 it probably has no real business here - it makes no real huge impact against any Pokemon aside from maybe using Grass Knot on Walrein (...) and I guess Grass Knot on Claydol while we're on that subject. It's just too frail and can't really survive much abuse while it sets up Calm Minds.

It's a Pokemon that has a good example of A characteristics but arguable B - it has no real great gym matchups (B material) but it still is rather strong outside of those scenarios (A material possibly). I think this is also why I think Electrike is hard to judge. It has no real great gym matchups until Winona and Wallace, then it does so-so in circumstances; however, it crushes in the field since its fast and quite powerful.

Mawile

We discussed Mawile quite a bit - it's a Pokemon that is pretty strong once trained and the power only grows once you get access to its Mega Evolution. Huge Power Mega Mawile is no joke even by in-game standards and its typing is absolutely stupendous. The two biggest weaknesses of Mawile (well three-ish, but one is slightly forgiven is the backtrack it takes to obtain it and the lack of real STABs until you reach the move relearner (the other is EXP - but it can gain it and leading with it with Intimidate helps a bit). Still I can't deny the brute force this thing brings once it's around - half the time the level gaps aren't even a huge deal because of the doubled base Attack and sturdiness. I feel in the end it's a bit more similar to Treecko because it has gym performances where it does exceptionally well and some that it sort of limps and gimps around (for example good luck facing Flannery with Mawile). It is kind of dependent on Mega evolution late game due to its mediocre base stats - this isn't a huge problem in boss fights but can get annoying in regular battles.

Staryu

Staryu is really funny. It actually learns Psychic at Level 42 - and waiting for it is rather convenient because Water Stone isn't available until after Tate and Liza. Once it arrives it does well, but some of its moves require major detours (Thunderbolt and Ice Beam) and the alternatives are shaky (Thunder's questionable accuracy outside of rain, Blizzard's questionable... everything). It does have Grass Knot for heavier opponents like Milotic, Walrein, and then hitting Whiscash so that helps too. Without Ice Beam its Elite 4 performance does sort of drop a bit - Dazzling Gleam kind of helps but, as I was going to point out with Tentacruel, lack of STAB, real setup moves, and so-so Special Attack kind of hamper it. The good news is Starmie is rather useful against Steven's Pokemon so there is that. It's a Pokemon that probably should be B due to its late joining.

Zangoose

Swords Dance is only a smidgen later honestly - right after dealing with Team Magma and Team Aqua in Mt Chimney. Aside from that it can still boost with Hone Claws decently until then and fire off STAB Slashes from its base 115 Attack. On the rare occasion of Rock- or Steel-types Zangoose can use Revenge to fire off a potential 120 base power attack. There are a couple other goodies that may be possible to obtain in a 3 man team - Close Combat and X-Scissor before it is available as a TM. As a bonus you don't really need Shadow Claw as a TM - Thief's buffed base power makes it kind of close in comparison. If you don't mind spending a little extra time getting Shadow Claw Zangoose doesn't need it until after Winona - convenient as Fly is available of use. Again much like Kadabra it isn't a Pokemon that completely excels in gyms / Elite 4. It can do things here and there (like it can pubstomp Sydney and can dent Glacia) but it probably is better left by others for gym matchups.

Makuhita

Another odd example of a Pokemon because its gym performance is huge. Makit, if used, can blow through Nosepass without too much of a struggle thanks to STAB Arm Thrust and access to a free X-Attack upon its trade. I think the only problem is that Guts, though a useful ability, isn't as great on Makuhita due to its slower and bulkier nature. Thick Fat really covers Flannery and Glacia nicely when it comes to Makuhita needing to perform above the rest. And that's the funny part - it's only mediocre against Brawly and Wallace while being weak to Winona and Tate / Liza. It even dents through the Elite 4 nicely with occasional struggles here and there. Still it's slower... but honestly on second thought a bit more comparable to Marill than I thought before.

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This may seem like ranting, but the problem is really defining that A tier from B and S is kind of important at the moment. It's hard to really gauge what should and shouldn't be there. Well, we know Graveler and Lotad shouldn't be there and honestly Staryu probably should drop too. I wish I had a more proper analysis for Wingull because it is questionable for B... but it is rather versatile in being an HM God while still having potential combat (STAB Hurricane / Hydro Pump is really nuts before Flannery to be honest).
 
Why is sableye a D rank? Just started playing alpha sapphire, but from what I remember from sapphire sableye is found before brawly, immune to normal, psychic, and fighting type moves, and has only one weakness. It has a decent movepool and a mega with good stats. I just don't see any reason why sableye shouldn't be in the b rank.
 

DHR-107

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Why is sableye a D rank? Just started playing alpha sapphire, but from what I remember from sapphire sableye is found before brawly, immune to normal, psychic, and fighting type moves, and has only one weakness. It has a decent movepool and a mega with good stats. I just don't see any reason why sableye shouldn't be in the b rank.
Sableye is not found before Brawly anymore. You need to get the Mach Bike from Mauville and come back, the same with Aron/Mawile. You don't get the Mega until right at the end of the game (IE Sootopolis).

Please don't post snarky comments like these without at least doing 5 minutes of googling before hand.
 
I wish I had a more proper analysis for Wingull because it is questionable for B... but it is rather versatile in being an HM God while still having potential combat (STAB Hurricane / Hydro Pump is really nuts before Flannery to be honest).
Pelipper is one of those 'mons that rocks the early game but then starts to lose traction come late-game. I kind of wish I used mine a bit more before sidelining it to surf and fly duty. Also wish I remembered it got Hurricane and Hydro Pump via Move Relearner. (I also wish it got dive and waterfall to complete the trifecta but I digress).

I think it's biggest claim to fame is making the tougher fights in the game (Brawley, Flannery, and Norman) utter jokes (oh Pelipper and your protect-truant shenanigans). After that (and this is now theorymon mind you since I HM-slaved mine after Norman) it's handy against Tate & Liza but not much else. Nothing really hard-walls it though, so I guess if you shoved enough exp it's way you could out-muscle most with a level advantage.
 
Pelipper is one of those 'mons that rocks the early game but then starts to lose traction come late-game. I kind of wish I used mine a bit more before sidelining it to surf and fly duty. Also wish I remembered it got Hurricane and Hydro Pump via Move Relearner. (I also wish it got dive and waterfall to complete the trifecta but I digress).

I think it's biggest claim to fame is making the tougher fights in the game (Brawley, Flannery, and Norman) utter jokes (oh Pelipper and your protect-truant shenanigans). After that (and this is now theorymon mind you since I HM-slaved mine after Norman) it's handy against Tate & Liza but not much else. Nothing really hard-walls it though, so I guess if you shoved enough exp it's way you could out-muscle most with a level advantage.
It is nice against Tate and Liza, I teamed it up with Shiftry to end that fight pretty quickly. I also agree with the level advantage out-muscling, because that's how I worked around Drake. I doubt I could have done it if I were a little closer level-wise
 
I have yet another discussion point to bring up:
E-Rank currently has 7 Pokémon in it, whereas D-Rank has 26. I would like to even these tiers out a bit, and be stricter with putting things in E-Rank. As such, my proposed changes are:

More Discussion Needed:
Tentacool B --> A
Zubat B --> A
Oddish (Vileplume) C --> B
Whismur A --> B (I was premature with this, sorry :x)
Illumise D --> E
Skitty D --> E
Wailmer D --> E (maybe? I'm unsure on this one)
Regice D --> E
Regirock D --> E
Registeel D --> E

Of course, I have no experience with any of these Pokémon (a little with Skitty actually, and she was OK for the start of the game. I got her overleveled with DexNav though, so she naturally would be >_<) so this is totally speculation. If there aren't any Pokémon in D-Rank which would count as "shitmons" then I won't move them down. It just seems off having that many Pokémon in D and only 7 in E.

I also removed Swablu and Electrike from the list, since looking at discussion I think that they are good where they are for the time being. When I FINALLY get my 3DS back I will use Swablu and post my thoughts here, presuming we're not done with the tier list by that point :p
 
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I have yet another discussion point to bring up:
E-Rank currently has 7 Pokémon in it, whereas D-Rank has 26. I would like to even these tiers out a bit, and be stricter with putting things in E-Rank. As such, my proposed changes are:

More Discussion Needed:
Tentacool B --> A
Zubat B --> A
Oddish (Vileplume) C --> B
Whismur A --> B (I was premature with this, sorry :x)
Illumise D --> E
Skitty D --> E
Wailmer D --> E (maybe? I'm unsure on this one)
Regice D --> E
Regirock D --> E
Registeel D --> E

Of course, I have no experience with any of these Pokémon (a little with Skitty actually, and she was OK for the start of the game. I got her overleveled with DexNav though, so she naturally would be >_<) so this is totally speculation. If there aren't any Pokémon in D-Rank which would count as "shitmons" then I won't move them down. It just seems off having that many Pokémon in D and only 7 in E.

I also removed Swablu and Electrike from the list, since looking at discussion I think that they are good where they are for the time being. When I FINALLY get my 3DS back I will use Swablu and post my thoughts here, presuming we're not done with the tier list by that point :p
About the only one of the golems that's remotely useful I feel is Regice since most of Drake's team is weak to Ice. However, all of his Pokemon are much faster than it and many Water types can learn Ice Beam if one is willing to take the side quest to get the TM. Regice learns Ice Beam itself shortly after capture, which is nice... but all three of them require a significant side trip and two specific Pokemon just to be able to go catch them and is extremely late. Yeah, E for the lot of them seems about right.

I think Wailmer is fine in D tier. I've no real recent experience with it, but it does appear to make a decent HM slave with Surf/Dive/Waterfall/Strength... That's got to count for something, right?

As for Illumise... there's ever a point where it has any sort of good match up? Tinted Lens can only help so much with its middling at best Sp. Attack and dismal Attack...
 

Its_A_Random

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E should be reserved for the worst of the worst. No matter how late the regis come they are still objectively better than Wobbuffet et al for example. If you really have to just create an F Rank because clearly F is for Fail.

What is the justification for considering moving Zubat and Tentacool to A?

IMHO A is quite over-inflated and quite a lot of things can move down a rank. Graveler, Lotad, Numel, Staryu, Whismur, and Wingull are examples of Pokémon that can go down a rank.

Graveler has already been discussed.
What does Lotad do that makes it deserve A Ranking? Water Stone evo is oppo cost central given there is a really small chance you could get it early on and otherwise you need to beat Gym 7 to get reliable access to one. This is bad because it means you are stuck with an objectively mediocre mon that struggles to OHKO SE targets off that stellar base 60 SpA. How is this A?
Numel is slow as and its Numel period in general is a rut period apart from maybe Flannery. Given the game has a lot of water in it Numel will tend to struggle often and even as Camerupt that speed is an issue and its bulk is average at best.
Staryu comes too late, has competition for a Water Stone and is reliant on not readily available TM's except for Surf. If it is coming that late in the game it better make up for it like the legends can.
Whismur is slow and evolves late, Loudred is mediocre for much of the time before it evolves and not even STAB Boomburst—which means it has competition for heart Scales—makes up for its mediocre pre-Exploud days.
Pelipper is reliable early game but lategame it really blows. Even with Ice Beam most match-ups love it because Pelipper is not strong offensively and its bulk cannot carry you effectively, especially through the Pokémon League where Drake for example can simply send in Salamence and destroy you with Thunder Fang. Hurricane blows because 70% accuracy means it has a nasty tendency to miss often. And that is bad when your next best move is basically Air Cutter (Fly blows and should only be used for HM purposes).

Somewhat coherent but undeatailed thoughts that may not be thought out well enough.
 
Changes Made:
Graveler A --> B
Lotad A --> B

I meant to do those two earlier but it slipped my mind :x

I think that so far a lot of people who used Numel agreed on its A-Rank tiering, but I will list it as a discussion point. Personally I think it is solid A, though.

More Discussion Needed:
Tentacool B --> A
Zubat B --> A
Oddish (Vileplume) C --> B
Whismur A --> B (I was premature with this, sorry)
Illumise D --> E
Skitty D --> E
Regice D --> E
Regirock D --> E
Registeel D --> E
Staryu A --> B
Wingull A --> B
Numel A --> B
 

Colonel M

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No on Zubat to A as well. Zubat is a Pokemon that does well in one gym and can contribute here and there but it really is not a prime Pokemon offensively. It is lackluster lategame since 90 base Attack and mediocre powered moves (barring Acrobatics) only goes so far.

I also am kind of against Tentacruel in A too. Tentacruel has a rather awkward rut earlygame until about Acid / Water Pulse. Dazzling Gleam really isnt going to cut it against Drake since it lacks STAB and comes off of a paltry 80 base SpA.

Numel is probably B rank too. I can't really dispute much against it - Simple Numel is your best bet throughout Numel's stage (it makes its period of mediocrity a bit easier).

Regis do have a really huge opportunity cost to obtaining (Wailord, Relicanth, Dig, other shit?). Iunno. Opportunity cost alone is probably worthy of E honestly.
 
I think I need to agree with Regis for E. First off, they require getting Wailord and Relicanth to get, while Relicanth is fairly rare and Wailord will likely require leveling a Wailmer or catching one on a rare chance (which took a while, at least in the original Sapphire). Furthermore, unless you have the path memorized, or know how to read Braille by sight, you have to look up directions to get the Regis, and then go through all sorts of obscure things to get them. If other mons are put down a tier for requiring backtracking and training, the Regis should be shoved down for large backtracking and training (provided you aren't able to catch a wild Wailord)

Furthermore, you're not getting much of a payoff for this:
Regirock is demolished by Wallace, being caught at four levels bellow Wallace's lowest, and being a Rock-type Physical wall in a gym where the main type is water and special attacks are common isn't doing it any favors. Regirock might fare well against Sidney if you have Hammer Arm or have Brick Break by TM (or are somehow level 61 for Superpower, but I don't think we're considering that). Phoebe is not going to be doing any favors, with plenty of special attacks from the Banettes (and at least one on each of the others, although Sableye's is Power Gem and Sableye has all laughable attack power of Sableye). Drake will likely take Regirock out pretty fast, and Steven has the pokemon to KO Regirock fast.

Regice doesn't fare much better, being able to take some attacks from Wallace's mons but his STAB is not very effective against most of Wallace's mons. Regice's main firepower is going to be Ice Beam, unless you grab Charge Beam or Ancient Power from move relearner, or have TMs for Thunderbolt (Charge Beam as well), or Blizzard. Regice might perform well against Sidney, having SE STAB against Shiftry and Cacturne, but Sidney uses almost exclusively Physical moves (and Extrasensory on Shiftry), so Regice better be wary. Phoebe's Dusknoir carries Fire Punch, and some of her mons are pretty bulky to boot. Glacia has ice-types and Regice won't be dealing much damage to them. Steven carries a lot of SE moves and Mega-Metagross will probably take out Regice without any problems. Drake is pretty thoroughly cowed by Regice but that's it's only high point.

Registeel is a mix, performing OK against most battles, but Steven's mons will likely shrug off his attacks with ease. Registeel requires a lot of work for little return, just like the rest of the Regis.

So, to put it this way, Regis require a ton of work to acquire, come late in the game, and give almost no return for a lot of effort. I see no reason they shouldn't be E if backtracking, needed leveling, and little contribution are each individual reasons to put a mon to a lower tier, and the Regis certainly have all 3.
 
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I used Numel in my run and absolutely believe it should be A. Its a bit weak n the numel stage but if you can get a simple one then you're 100% golden with stabs like lava plume and earth power. As a camerupt it wrecks face and was one of the key of members my team. The water routes suck but I consistently rotated my mons (full team of 6) and found that it wasnt as bad for Camerupt as I thought it would be. I had a couple of Rae Candies by then to help her catch up if she fell behind, and the difference for me was only a level or two. She destroyed against Sydney (except sharpedo) and would probably sweep Glacia as well save for Walrein. 100% confident in Numel's A tier placement
 
More Discussion Needed: (comments in blue dabadee, bold rates for hard people)
Tentacool B --> A
Not recommendable to pick it up at Level 5, but does not impress on Level 25 as well
Special bulk is nice but it will fall to repeated physical assaults and is to weak offensively to avoid this.

Zubat B --> A
Crobat is a great Pokemon that everyone must love, but after the miraculous Level 23 evolution the power drop occurs fast. It cannot keep up because of low offensive capabilities and unfavorable match ups in the late game.
Oddish (Vileplume) C --> B
A bit in the shadow of Roselia which has better move options available, but lower physical bulk.
While Oddish lacks powerful Stab options for quite a while, it has nice tools and the necessary bulk to not fall behind before getting the Evolution Stone. Gives valuable support to the team with Sweet Scent, Status and self sufficient healing moves for stalky battles. Also it can make your days sunny in the rain :)

Whismur A --> B (I was premature with this, sorry)
I wouldn´t even blame it for its performance as a Whismur, because even Exploud has its issues with subpar speed and only ok bulk. Can nuke everything that is slower but Hoenn is quite fast in general.
Illumise D --> E
Has nice support options and can contribute every now and then if you drag it on, more of a staller though
Skitty D --> E
Trashtier for trashmons, I always use it as fodder for Roxanne
Regice D --> E
Regirock D --> E
Registeel D --> E
Staryu A --> B
although available at a high level it comes at an atrocious 5% rate which requires patience
afterwards it is a medium powerful Pokemon with ok bulk and nice coverage options
the remaining major fights do it no favor, only has a clear advantage with Ice Beam against Drake

Wingull A --> B
very valuable support options and nice typing only carry you that far imo
medium fast learning is a bit slow in the beginning(that contradiction!) and it shows when you have 40/30 bulk with 55 SpA
Pelipper has a short episode of shining bright against Flannery and Norman but lacks damage output afterwards, Hurricane and Surf(>Hydro Miss with 5pp) are great as is Keen Eye against Double Teamers but 85 SpA and mediocre special bulk give a tough endgame

Numel A --> B
Numel is slow Camerupt isn´t much better, Potion Festival anyone?
Its not the water routes that give trouble(level up move pools for Trainers rleave them with no Water Stab on a lot of Hoenns sea creatures) but the lack of resistances and ok 70/70 bulk. Its offensive output is great, I admit.


When we discuss the rating of performance we generally consider the best available option for a Pokemon.
Thus we do not rate the effectiveness of e.g. Thick Fat Marill.

This is something I just recently thought about when I saw that a lot of you guys used Effect Spore Shroomish and didn´t even mention the superiority of Poison Heal and Facade sweeping being better then any available coverage option. So Shroomish may be better than A, but I have some problems with Brelooms speed.

Also I just tested how effective it is to catch overleveled Magikarp just before the Lati@s event, because this gets rid of any need for grinding. result: super effective, evolves after the fight and levels fast enough against Bug Catchers and co to have Ice Fang for Winona, nukes afterwards. So no grinding necessary = S rank
 
My goodness, just look at the time!
It's time for some Surskit Appreciation!

Alert: Although in-game tiers are not like competitive tiers, i'm gonna make a lot of comparisons between Masquerain and Beautifly, just because the two of them are so similar it's kind of unavoidable to compare them. I'm NOT gonna say that Beautifly should be moved down, absolutely. I'm just using it to explain why i think Surskit should be in a higher tier.

Double Alert: This is a pretty damn long post. Sorry, but this is for the honor of my shit-tier beloved.


So, Surskit/Masquerain. Currently in rank C. I think he should be moved to rank B, maybe even A. (edit: MAYBE. Very very maybe)

What does it bring to the table? (TL;DR version of what i'll explain)
Typing:
Bug/Water is really good early on, but Bug/Flying is low-average mid-late.
Notable Movepool:
Bubble Beam, Water Sport, most notably 3 Medals (LV22) Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz and Air Cutter. Access to Air Slash, Ice Beam, Energy Ball and Shadow Ball later on. Also, Intimidate.
Stats:
Early-bug-type-bad. Stat-wise he might look like a slightly bulkier, slower version of Beautifly.
Major Battles:
Performs very well against 4/8 gym leaders, average against 1/8, bad against 3/8.
Performs very well against 4/5 Elite 4, average against Steven.

Overall:
More of a mid-to-late game Bug-type Pokèmon, his only really troubling matches are Roxanne, Wattson, Winona and the first 4 pokèmons of Steven.
What does it have that Beautifly doesn't:
Bubble Beam, Water Sport, 3 Medals (LV22) Quiver Dance and Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Ice Beam, more bulkiness (better def stats + Intimidate) = more setup occasions
What doesn't it have that Beaufitly does:
Early Evolution (mostly useful against Brawly), grass-type moves before Elite 4 (mostly useful against Wallace, but he's a piece of cake anyway), Morning Sun


Early Game:
Surskit is found in Route 102, at the very beginning of the game. At a first glance, he might seem so rare (1% encounter raio) it's not even worth it to go and search for it. However, there's one Surskit with Fell Stinger as an Egg Move available as soon as Brendan/May mentions the DexNav's Hidden Pokèmon function. He's right there, you can't miss him. No effort required to find him.
As far as the Availability factor goes, you can't do much better than our little fella.

Sadly, at the very beginning our Surskit won't shine. Having Fell Stinger as his first move, he won't have Bubble, which makes him helpless against Roxanne. That is, of course, if you don't invest a little grinding time (he levels up pretty fast, not as fast as a Taillow but the same as a Wurmple) and bring him to lv. 17, he will learn Bubble Beam. Then again, you might as well use your starter to get past Roxanne.
Against Brawly our Surskit won't struggle, but won't shine either. Sure he resists everything Makuhita can throw at him, but has no super-effective moves against it. For now, a Beautifly (which has the up of being fully-evolved since the very first gym) would perform a thousand times better.
Brendan/May is starter-dependant. If you invested some time in leveling him, you'll now have a Masquerain, which will wreck Grovyle or Combusken (Air Cutter at lvl22), but if it's Marshtomp it might be wiser not to evolve Surskit yet (Bug/Water resists everything).
Wattson is a no-brainer, Masquerain can't do much.

Mid Game:
Hold tight, for this is where the Masquerain crazyness begins. As soon as you get to Fallarbor, Masquerain has access to both Quiver Dance and Bug Buzz. How, you say? Move Relearner.
For comparison, Beautifly and Dustox learn them respectively at LV35 and LV40.
Maxie/Archie is really version dependant. Archie is way easier since Sharpedo gets OHKOed if you danced once to outspeed it.
Flannery might look like a no-brainer the same way Wattson was, but she really isn't. One reason: Water Sport. You just have to setup in Numel's face (Slugma has a rock move) and Torkoal will get OHKOed.
From now on, except for two foes, you'll just have to find the right Pokèmon to setup against and Masquerain will sweep everything.
Norman is the easiest one you'll face. Just abuse Truant to setup.
Brendan/May can be sweeped with ease whichever Pokèmon they use.
Winona is the first exception i mentioned earlier. Just don't use Masquerain. Too bad you'll only get Ice Beam after 7 medals.
Liza & Tate are somewhat easy, just focus Solrock first since it has Rock Slide. Their gym is stupidly easy with Bug Buzz though.

Late Game:
You're just gonna keep dancing, but now you have powerful special TMs to back it off.
Wallace leads with A LUVDISC. A ****ING LUVDISC. Oh, Milotic has a Ice Beam? Too bad, i have 6 Quiver Dances. Did i mention easiest gym in the game? Oh, no, that's dad's gym.
Wally is really, really easy too. Delcatty is setup fodder, and you have Ice Beam for Altaria. You were gonna OHKO Gallade anyway.
Elite 4:
Sidney. LOL, next.
Phoebe. Shadow Ball gets stuff done. Just don't setup on Dusclops because it has Ice Punch.
Glacia. Suprisingly easier than expected if you dance a couple times. Glalie doesn't hurt that much anyway and will always waste a turn to use Hail. Energy Ball should OHKO Walrein.
Drake. Did you know that with Ice Beam you don't even need to dance to OHKO him? The more you know. You still should do it at least once since Kingdra is quite the b****. (edit: You HAVE to do it at least once to OHKO everything but Kingdra. Two QDs Bug Buzz is enough to 2HKO Kingdra and take about 40% from her Ice Beam. Not as good as i thought but still rather accetable).
Steven. Sadly, he's the second exception. Kind of. At least, for most of his team. When he sends out Claydol though, that's some REAL setup fodder. Then proceed to Shadow Ball Metagross for the OHKO.



And that ladies and gents, is how Masquerain gets stuff done. I actually breezed through a nuzlocke with it (well, her).

P.S.: Yes, I did register to Smogon just to post this comment. Found a link for it on 4chan, got interested, joined the crew to defend the honor of my favorite Pokèmon.
Gonna sail around this forum in the coming days, looks really nice.
 
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I second Surskit going from C to B. Aureant covered basically everything, but I'll say a bit too. Surskit's base stats and typing are underwhelming, but it has a pretty awesome movepool, most notably Bubblebeam which is extra helpful in OR's Team Magma fights. It also gets a ton of great TMs for coverage, like Scald, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball. In addition, once it evolves it has one of the best abilities for an in-game run thanks to Intimidate. Its availability is great too, as it's catchable before Roxanne. I wouldn't quite say it's A, however. As mentioned before, Masquerain's stats are pretty bad, so you need Quiver Dances (either a very late learn or a Heart Scale needed) to do much late game. In addition, Surskit has a period from levels 6-17 during which it learns no offensive moves, meaning you're stuck with Bubble and Quick Attack (and Fell Stinger maybe? Mine had it, but I don't see it as a level up move anywhere else online). That makes Surskit a bit underwhelming until it learns Bubblebeam. Despite those flaws, Surskit is a notch above the other pokemon in C, and is probably on par with Beautifly.
 
I think the Surskit hype is too much personally. B tier might well be possible because the matchups are pretty good, and there are setup opportunities in places but A is really pushing it. My main concerns about Masquerain in general and Aureant's argument specifically:

- The levels you seem to be assuming for Masquerain are way too high for this tier list's criteria (specifically, big party and no Exp Share). I find it especially worrisome that you're suggesting Masquerain sweeps Drake *without* Quiver Dance (no STAB + a rather low sp. atk. stat of 80), and that one QD is sufficient for a OHKO on Kingdra who has no weakness to the move whatsoever. Remember, it's just 80 sp. atk/60 spd before boosts - very mediocre.
- If you're facing the E4 10 levels below (I was 10-15 levels below on my two finished runs) and not 10 levels above + with maxed EVs across the board thanks to Exp Share, the matchups are suddenly way worse for Masquerain, especially for its mediocre stats. Where are you setting up against Drake for example? Altaria has Aerial Ace (hitting your 70/62 physical bulk very hard even after an Intimidate), Flygons have Rock Slide/Flamethrower, Kingdra has Ice Beam (and yeah, it's faster and is likely OHKOing since you're too slow to get a QD in) while Mence has Thunder Fang/Dragon Rush.
- Same elsewhere; how much damage is Glalie's Ice Shard dealing after an Intimidate? It's by no means guaranteed to use Hail, and even if it does, it'll start attacking next turn, and you probably want boosts around +5/+6 to ensure OHKO on his bulky Pokemon with Bug Buzz / Shadow Ball. Phoebe's lead Dusclops with Curse/Confuse Ray/Future Sight/Shadow Punch is really hard to set up on; in fact, Curse is the reason why I choose to never set up against Phoebe at all in my runs.
- Ice Beam taking so much time to acquire is also a disadvantage. You could go for Blizzard, but that one is too unreliable to sweep with (though you won't sweep Drake anyway).
- Just really mediocre performance without constant setup after midgame (when early Bug Buzz is tutored).

Also to comment on mons that I've used (I'll address others really bothering me some other time):
Numel - B
It's powerful, yes, but you kinda wish it could've come earlier to help with Wattson, and from there it's just okay with no excellent matchups (neutral damage from Glacia making it poorer than other fire-types there) awaiting it. Since it's so slow and not particularly bulky, its stat spread is rather disadvantageous - you really could've gone without a second strong attacking stat and taken more bulk or something. It's also not a good Metagross counter because it's not even close to OHKOing with Overheat, and it won't live a Giga Impact to do something like a Earth Power + Overheat.

Whismur - B / C
People are saying Whismur is the weak phase you're meant to suck up like a man for great benefits. It's the exact opposite really - Whismur getting Echoed Voice immediately means it will be KOing things left and right at a point in the game where EV's initial 40 BP is high enough - use it twice and it's unmatched offence at that point. It evolves into Loudred while maintaining this earlygame advantage, and... I feel this is where I really start regretting using this thing. Echoed Voice now needs several turns to deal damage comparable to what your better mons can dish out in a single hit without any setup whatsoever, Strength doesn't hit hard enough, and it's so slow that "sweeping" with EV is not happening without a good deal potions during the battle. Carry this burden until L30 or so and it gets absolutely ridiculous - mook!Pelipper with Brine 2HKOing you, and everyone else giving you a hard time. And you still have 10 levels to endure the pain of training this thing... and when you're there at lv. 40, say, before Wallace - Boomburst! But what good does it bring? With only 91 base sp. atk., the "nuke" is merely a "scrub-slaying nuke" and nothing even close to the nukes coming from Slaking using Giga Impact, Mega Pinsir using Thrash, or Leaf Storm Mega Sceptile/HJK Mega Blaziken. I mean yeah, you can totally nail that Luvdisc or Mightyena, but what's the merit in that?

Shroomish - C
My Shroomish had Drain Punch and I still really hated it. Without DP or other egg moves, you'll hate it even more before you get Giga Drain - a move that goes off Breloom's weakest attacking stat by far. Breloom didn't get Seed Bomb until after Wallace for me, and since I didn't set it up in front of Mightyena to sweep Sydney (used the power of teamwork to OHKO his mons through other means available instead) he actually ended up seeing absolutely no use in the E4 aside from being death fodder.

And why is Golem still in A-tier? Colonel M, responsible for it getting there in the first place, acknowledged its glaring flaws and admitted its place is in B-tier (which seems fair enough, with Graveler a tier below in C).
 
I think the Surskit hype is too much personally. B tier might well be possible because the matchups are pretty good, and there are setup opportunities in places but A is really pushing it.
I did definitely exaggerate at the beginning of the post, that's why i wrote "maybe even A tier". Please, don't take that statement too seriously, for it's not.
I'll only focus on the most plausible thesis from now on : Surskit C ---> B
Let's just stick to this one for it's the one i had in my mind while writing my post. (sorry for not being very clear!)

- The levels you seem to be assuming for Masquerain are way too high for this tier list's criteria (specifically, big party and no Exp Share). [...] If you're facing the E4 10 levels below (I was 10-15 levels below on my two finished runs) and not 10 levels above + with maxed EVs across the board thanks to Exp Share, the matchups are suddenly way worse for Masquerain, especially for its mediocre stats.
Before talking about numbers, i want to discuss this level criteria thing. So, well, i'm actually going to talk about numbers anyway.
I'm having some trouble at understanding the "correct level" a team should be when challenging Elite 4 following the criteria.
As far as I remember, in a normal run a team should plausibly be around LV47-49 when facing Elite 4. I'm saying this judging on my first normal OR run and my past Ruby runs. Oh, i never use Exp. Share so i didn't really take that into account.
As i stated in my post, I used Masquerain in my Nuzlocke (second OR run). I challenged Elite 4 after bringing all of my team to Lv 52, for it seemed a reasonable enough goal after checking E4's levels, and I didn't want to overlevel my mons anyway.

For my experience, 10 levels below is not a realistic level. But 10 levels above isn't either. About same level is, though (usually 2-3 levels below, actually). I'm assuming the hypothetical run OP is talking about isn't a rushed one, so trainer fights weren't skipped and plausibly 3-4 levels were backtracked because every in-game team is going to face some hard foe sooner or later.
Well, at least that's how I always play normal runs. I've never found myself being 10 levels below E4, and I never grinded more than 3-4 levels.
Once again i'll repeat that this is my experience from my past runs, so this is what i think is a "normal" run. Yes i am talking about 6 mons team.
If there were some definite numeric criterias that i missed in OP (b-but i doublechecked it!), than i'm blind and dumb.

I find it especially worrisome that you're suggesting Masquerain sweeps Drake *without* Quiver Dance (no STAB + a rather low sp. atk. stat of 80), and that one QD is sufficient for a OHKO on Kingdra who has no weakness to the move whatsoever. Remember, it's just 80 sp. atk/60 spd before boosts - very mediocre
[...] Where are you setting up against Drake for example? Altaria has Aerial Ace (hitting your 70/62 physical bulk very hard even after an Intimidate), Flygons have Rock Slide/Flamethrower, Kingdra has Ice Beam (and yeah, it's faster and is likely OHKOing since you're too slow to get a QD in) while Mence has Thunder Fang/Dragon Rush.
And now i'm going to talk about numbers.
Disclaimer: I used Showdown Calculator to get a couple numbers, I assumed neutral natures for both contestants and no IV/EV. It's gonna be all mixed up in a real game anyway so that can't really be used for these guesses. For the following statements i assumed that Masquerain was at minimum LV50, since a Lv.47-49 Masquerain was plausibly used to kill all of Sydney's team.
Double Disclaimer: Actually a couple of my statements were proved exaggerated by Showdown Calculator. Big fail.

For example, Masquerain can't sweep Drake without QD. My Masquerain sweeped Drake, yes, but i did setup in Altaria's face. One QD, however, IS enough to OHKO everything but Kindgra.
So, Kingdra. QD Bug Buzz isn't nearly enough to OHKO Kingdra. You need two QDs, and it still takes two hits. So that was another mistake. Big assumptions were made. On the other hand, after one or two QDs, it takes three Ice Beams for Kingdra to KO Masq.
However, and here's the real deal, Altaria isn't that scary at all. You can easily setup at least 2 QDs in her face, which is enough to OHKO everything else (except Kingdra) and to survive the Ice Beam Kingdra will fire off. Altaria needs three Aerial Aces (after Intimidate) to kill Masquerain, so that means 2 guaranteed QDs (and a hyper potion. Can we take items into account? Just one. If not, well, you won't survive Kingdra's Ice beam). Items or not, I'm just saying that Altaria isn't that dangerous and can be setup against.

- Same elsewhere; how much damage is Glalie's Ice Shard dealing after an Intimidate? It's by no means guaranteed to use Hail, and even if it does, it'll start attacking next turn, and you probably want boosts around +5/+6 to ensure OHKO on his bulky Pokemon with Bug Buzz / Shadow Ball. Phoebe's lead Dusclops with Curse/Confuse Ray/Future Sight/Shadow Punch is really hard to set up on; in fact, Curse is the reason why I choose to never set up against Phoebe at all in my runs.
Ice Shard after Intimidate will deal about 25% of Masq's health, more than enough to setup on if you ask me. 2QDs + Energy Ball (aren't we going to use those TMs? EB is available pre-League, but needs some work to get) 2HKOes Walrein, while Blizzard isn't enough to OHKO Masquerain (deals 50-60% of health). If he lands Freeze Dry, well, he da real MVP.
For Phoebe, you shouldn't setup on Dusclops. I even said it in my post (although i assumed he had Ice Punch). But she has a Banette. Is it wrong if I use another mon to kill Dusclops and setup on Banette? He's not gonna hurt that much.

- Ice Beam taking so much time to acquire is also a disadvantage. You could go for Blizzard, but that one is too unreliable to sweep with (though you won't sweep Drake anyway).
I don't understand what exactly makes it a disadvantage: the fact that it's only available after Liza&Tate or the fact that it is hidden and not that straightforward to obtain? If it's the first, then it's not a problem, since you only really need it against Drake. If it's the second, well, the same could be said about Energy Ball. But i still think we were talking about a normal, nearly complete run. "Backtracking" to get a TM doesn't seem that detrimental to me. Pretty much every player is gonna explore Sea Mauville once they get Dive, it's not like they're in a rush to finish the game.


And, most of all: the same things you said about Masquerain can't be said about Beautifly too (well, not all of them, since Beautifly doesn't have Ice Beam)? What makes it a higher tier? Is the fact that it counters Brawly alone enough to justify it being better than Masquerain? I listed before the things Masq does that BF can't, i'm certain they make up for the early difference. I'd also like to point out the fact that Intimidate and slightly better Def/SDef means way more setup occasions.

Masq is a mid-to-late game Bug, BF is an early-to-mid game Bug. But i think they both belong in the same tier.
 
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Just wanted to chime in and say I agree with Numel's drop from A > B.

I used him in my last playthrough, and while his STAB's and level up movepool are nice, the fact that he's so slow really hurts him. He's going to basically be taking a hit before moving, and he's not bulky enough to afford to be doing that. I also didn't find him that useful for the gyms. Can't get him before Wattson, he's only really useful against Winona's Skarmory and maybe Swellow, and I wouldn't bother using him at all in the 7th and 8th gyms.

I find him, like Colonel M put it, a 'field' Pokemon similar to Kadabra and Manectric.
 
The best "field" Pokemon for me is Crobat, nothing really resists Stab Acrobatics and the lvl 23 evolution was amazing (I just use one protein found near 2nd gym + one massage, maybe that wasn't needed)

Numel disappointed me too, but I used him also in the Fire gym and of course, he destroys Norman's Slakings with Dig (Dig + Truant = Immunity)
 
I agree with Numel in B tier, for reasons already stated.

As for Illumise, I think D is the correct placement.. As it stands right now, E tier is the worst of the worst. Illumise is god awful, but she has a few redeeming qualities. Struggle Bug isn't good STAB, but it's serviceable enough for most of the game, and she can complement it with some (admittedly bad) TMs such as Round or Charge Beam, the latter of which boosts her underwhelming Special Attack. She gets Bug Buzz at level 40, which could be soon enough for the 7th gym depending on how underleveled you are, and is certainly fast enough for Sydney. She also gets some decent late-game TMs, such as Dazzling Gleam. In addition, Illumise's stats are bad, but not completely unusable. 85 Speed is actually pretty fast, and her Special stats are both workable. However, Illumise's saving grace is her early access to recovery moves. Moonlight at level 19 and Wish three levels later means she can help not only her own survivability, but also that of her team. In short, Illumise is far from a good pokemon, but it provides enough early team utility, and just enough late-game relevance to be ok in D.

EDIT: Spelling
 
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