Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[MANNAT]

105/75/75 IS shit bulk compared to mega swampert's 100/110/110 bulk. No one ever said hydro pump and focus blast have 50% accuracy. 80% and 70% is horrible when you compare that to all of swampert's moves, which have perfect accuracy. Missing crucial moves wastes rain turns, but may also result in the fainting of one of your sweepers, which can turn the tides of battles. Okay, your third point just doesn't make any sense. Both mons are late game cleaners on swift swim teams. Isn't every mon on a rain team a late game cleaner lol? Focus blast can crush ferrothorn 7/10 times. Actually it can't, because focus blast can't even OHKO it, while ferro easily OHKOes with power whip, or stalls you out with leech seed. The probability of hitting two focus blasts in a row is EXTREMELY low. Point 5 also doesn't make any sense. So, seismitoad takes out physical walls that kabutops can't? Well guess what, swampert takes out special walls that seismitoad cannot. Sure, seismitoad doesn't take up a mega slot, but there aren't too many good rain megas to begin with. Mega scizor, mega manectric, mega swampert and mega heracross are pretty much the main ones. All those choices are very good on rain teams, so there isn't even much competition for a mega stone anyways.

Sorry, I should've calc'd the damage first. However, most ferros run gyro ball over power whip. Also, you missed mega metagross, and I wanted to put seismitoad as an option to use over Swamps if you wanted to use a wallbreaking mega like mega heracross or mega metagross. I KNOW seismitoad is outclassed by mega swampert, i just wanted to point out that it fills a partial part of the role that mega swampert plays.

... the exact same thing you've been saying, yes. Which they responded to and countered. I don't know what you're trying to say here.

sorry i posted it in the wrong thread. Here is what i meant to post here:

After further testing I have determined that mega swampert outclasses seismitoad as a swift swim sweeper, but seismitoad fills 60-80% of the void that mega swampert leaves behind.

 

[pika pal]

So far, the only unique pro that Swampert has to seperate itself from other Swift swimmers is that its bulkier. The only problem with that is, like I initially said, Pert needs to take 2 hits before it outspeeds all relevant mons, so its amazing bulk is effectively neutered.

Well, as discussed, it's also about on par with LO Kabutops in natural power, there's the bulk, and the fact that it's a Swift Swimmer immune to Thunder Wave (which is where Seis discussion came from) that beats some relevant OU Electric types (Thundurus and Mega Manectric).

I think you're also overestimating Swamp's difficulty starting his sweeps. Yes, he has one turn with pre-mega speed, but considering how closely he compares to Kabutops, but bulkier (60/105/70 vs 100/110/110), plus a rock resistance, Swampert should be able to come in about as easily, if not moreso than Kabutops, who pretty much needs a free switch in to get started. Compare though
- Swamp has one non-SS turn, but he still gets to attack on that turn
- Kabutops needs to get in with mediocre bulk, and retain enough HP to attack before LO recoil wears him out.
Heck, Swampert's typing and bulk turn Thundurus, who counters Kabutops, into an easy switch, since Kabutops can't switch into anything but HP Ice, whereas Swamp can switch into T-Bolt or Thunder Wave, and can tank one Focus Blast for his mega turn.

That poor pre mega speed is also very annoying when trying to mega on something like say a weakened Rotom-W which you can easily KO, 212 Speed means that you are slower than it and it can thus pain split or Burn you, you have no idea how many times Ive done this to people.

Also, minor point, but as the calcs posted earlier show, Swampert can't really beat Rotom even after he Megas (Unless it's at something like 18%), so that example is just poor playing on the Pert's part. I see what your overall point is, but no Rain team ever runs just one Swift Swimmer, and it's already been emphasized that Swampert works well with other Swimmers to pile on offensive pressure. Not to mention, I doubt finding a counter to one of the most common Pokemon in the Metagame is an impossible feat, especially considering it's both an asset and a serious roadblock for Rain.

 

[firehusky]

Sorry, I should've calc'd the damage first. However, most ferros run gyro ball over power whip. Also, you missed mega metagross, and I wanted to put seismitoad as an option to use over Swamps if you wanted to use a wallbreaking mega like mega heracross or mega metagross. I KNOW seismitoad is outclassed by mega swampert, i just wanted to point out that it fills a partial part of the role that mega swampert plays.

You can't just say that "most ferros run gyro ball over power whip". It depends on their team. If their team is swampert / quagsire / subDD mega gyarados, then power whip is obviously a much better option. Of course if you are using a mega other than mega swampert, than you obviously can't use mega swampert, but still, I'm saying that they are two completely different mons, you can't really compare them, since their roles are so different.

 

[MANNAT]

You can't just say that "most ferros run gyro ball over power whip". It depends on their team. If their team is swampert / quagsire / subDD mega gyarados, then power whip is obviously a much better option. Of course if you are using a mega other than mega swampert, than you obviously can't use mega swampert, but still, I'm saying that they are two completely different mons, you can't really compare them, since their roles are so different.

Their roles are somewhat similar, and if you run a wallbreaking mega, seismitoad is a decent electric immune Pokemon to put on your rain team when swamps is gone.

 

[Flamer]

Well, as discussed, it's also about on par with LO Kabutops in natural power, there's the bulk, and the fact that it's a Swift Swimmer immune to Thunder Wave (which is where Seis discussion came from) that beats some relevant OU Electric types (Thundurus and Mega Manectric).

If you read a few pages back, you would note that I brought up this discussion, as well as the seismitoed discussion, so yes I know why I brought seismitoed up, I was saying they both have a T Wave immunity, not that they should be compared down to the power of their moves. With the points youve brought up regardless, they bring too little to rain to actually legitimise the use of Megapert over other swift swimmers.

I think you're also overestimating Swamp's difficulty starting his sweeps. Yes, he has one turn with pre-mega speed, but considering how closely he compares to Kabutops, but bulkier (60/105/70 vs 100/110/110), plus a rock resistance, Swampert should be able to come in about as easily, if not moreso than Kabutops, who pretty much needs a free switch in to get started. Compare though
- Swamp has one non-SS turn, but he still gets to attack on that turn
- Kabutops needs to get in with mediocre bulk, and retain enough HP to attack before LO recoil wears him out.
Heck, Swampert's typing and bulk turn Thundurus, who counters Kabutops, into an easy switch, since Kabutops can't switch into anything but HP Ice, whereas Swamp can switch into T-Bolt or Thunder Wave, and can tank one Focus Blast for his mega turn.

This is the exact point Im trying to make, rain in general appreciates free switches, thus it loves mons like Torn-T and Manectric to provide momentum and free switches for its swift swimmers. Megapert doesnt change the fact that you need free switches, but it does prevent you from using the premier volt switcher in the tier, without giving anything other than a bit more bulk that is useless because you have to take two hits to mega anyway.

Also, minor point, but as the calcs posted earlier show, Swampert can't really beat Rotom even after he Megas (Unless it's at something like 18%), so that example is just poor playing on the Pert's part. I see what your overall point is, but no Rain team ever runs just one Swift Swimmer, and it's already been emphasized that Swampert works well with other Swimmers to pile on offensive pressure. Not to mention, I doubt finding a counter to one of the most common Pokemon in the Metagame is an impossible feat, especially considering it's both an asset and a serious roadblock for Rain.

....
This wasnt the point Im trying to make at all. Im saying that Megapert finds it very hard to Mega due to the prevalence of common counters to him, even if theyre on the verge of death. Either way, If youre switching out to a counter, the opponent has prevented you from Megavolving, thus showing how hard he is to mega.

 

[x-terminate]

Off the topic of Swampert vs. Seismitoad. I believe Gyarados should be moved up to A-. The special defence resttalk set is an amazing counter to Greninja, I believe it's 4hkoed by every one of it's moves bar grass knot (or hp electric lol). I've been using this set with rest, sleep talk, waterfall, dragon tail. It forces Gren out every time it switches in and this combined with dragon tail phazing and hazards wears down the opposing team very quickly. Seeing as greninja is probably the best mon in the tier at the moment and resttalk gyara is essentially a hard counter barring rarely used gk, this set is a solid addition to Gyara's repertoire along the bulky dragon dance set and the threat of a bluffed mega evolution. Makes Gyara a more powerful mon then the others residing in b+, especially Mamo and Terrak who can't function against half the teams on the ladder with the advent of M-sableye stall.

 

[MANNAT]

Off the topic of Swampert vs. Seismitoad. I believe Gyarados should be moved up to A-. The special defence resttalk set is an amazing counter to Greninja, I believe it's 4hkoed by every one of it's moves bar grass knot (or hp electric lol). I've been using this set with rest, sleep talk, waterfall, dragon tail. It forces Gren out every time it switches in and this combined with dragon tail phazing and hazards wears down the opposing team very quickly. Seeing as greninja is probably the best mon in the tier at the moment and resttalk gyara is essentially a hard counter barring rarely used gk, this set is a solid addition to Gyara's repertoire along the bulky dragon dance set and the threat of a bluffed mega evolution. Makes Gyara a more powerful mon then the others residing in b+, especially Mamo and Terrak who can't function against half the teams on the ladder with the advent of M-sableye stall.

You could say the same about crocune, it better bulk on both ends of the spectrum(without factoring in intimidate) and its main STAB move has a thirty percent chance to half the damage of the two moves that many people think have pushed him over the threshold of broken in OU.

 

[Poek]

Here's my opinion about possible changes:

B+ -> A- Celebi is so underrated is unreal. Celebi is capable of checking/counter a plethora of mons depending on its spread such as Thundurus, Landorus, Keldeo, Diggersby, Terrakion, Garchomp, Lopunny, Rotom-W, Sceptile, Breloom, Kabutops, Swampert, Kingdra... Celebi is not just there to check threats, it also beats a lot of CMers with Nasty Plot, support your teammates passing the boost or a sub and it can run a neat offensive set that hits really hard, it fits on a lot of playstyles and there's no reason why it should stay in B+, as ORAS just benefited it.

B+ -> A- MSwampert its just great. Provides for rain a lot of unique tributes such as luring Ferrothorn, being a great Thundurus check/T-Wave absorber, Bisharp check and being a bulky attacker in general. Not having good speed before mevoing sucks yeah, but when you're usually mevoing in front of something that you force out, it doesn't matter.

B -> B+ Agreeing with TheV8man here. Crawdaunt is a beast. If you give a free switch-in to this thing, its most likely that you're going to sack something since even things that resists its STAB combo such as Keldeo and Azumarill are 2HKOed and priority Aqua Jet is still as good as ever. Stall being good ORAS just helps this guy sweep or heavily damage your team and even "his counter" Chesnaught gets 2HKOed by +2 Crabhammer, you just widdle it pairing up Crawdaunt with a bulky grass type so you dont give recovery to that thing (Celebi comes to mind).

B -> B+ Not much to say here, Quagsire is becoming better due to the prevalence of set-up sweepers.

B -> B+ A lot of people nominated it for B+ included me and it got nothing but support, easy B+.

 

[MANNAT]

Here's my opinion about possible changes:

B+ -> A- Celebi is so underrated is unreal. Celebi is capable of checking/counter a plethora of mons depending on its spread such as Thundurus, Landorus, Keldeo, Diggersby, Terrakion, Garchomp, Lopunny, Rotom-W, Sceptile, Breloom, Kabutops, Swampert, Kingdra... Celebi is not just there to check threats, it also beats a lot of CMers with Nasty Plot, support your teammates passing the boost or a sub and it can run a neat offensive set that hits really hard, it fits on a lot of playstyles and there's no reason why it should stay in B+, as ORAS just benefited it.

B+ -> A- MSwampert its just great. Provides for rain a lot of unique tributes such as luring Ferrothorn, being a great Thundurus check/T-Wave absorber, Bisharp check and being a bulky attacker in general. Not having good speed before mevoing sucks yeah, but when you're usually mevoing in front of something that you force out, it doesn't matter.

B -> B+ Agreeing with TheV8man here. Crawdaunt is a beast. If you give a free switch-in to this thing, its most likely that you're going to sack something since even things that resists its STAB combo such as Keldeo and Azumarill are 2HKOed and priority Aqua Jet is still as good as ever. Stall being good ORAS just helps this guy sweep or heavily damage your team and even "his counter" Chesnaught gets 2HKOed by +2 Crabhammer, you just widdle it pairing up Crawdaunt with a bulky grass type so you dont give recovery to that thing (Celebi comes to mind).

B -> B+ Not much to say here, Quagsire is becoming better due to the prevalence of set-up sweepers.

B -> B+ A lot of people nominated it for B+ included me and it got nothing but support, easy B+.

I agree with most of the changes, but I think that mega swampert should stay where it is because it has several common checks and counters within the tier that can take it down while taking little to no damage such as chesnaught and ferrothorn if it doesn't have low kick because it simply doesn't have enough power to.

Mega Swampert

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 135-159 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 126-150 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 19.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew in Rain: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 318-375 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite in Rain: 124-147 (38.3 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp in Rain: 178-211 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross in Rain: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Rain: 144-171 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

While mega swampert may pack a punch, he simply cannot bust through walls like other offensive megas can, so you're better off using kabutops or seismitoad so you can use a wallbreaker like mega heracross or mega metagross.

(notice these calcs are without weather powered up STABs.)

Mega Metagross

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 258-306 (67.8 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 309-364 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 272-320 (71.2 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 410-486 (104 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 272-320 (72.1 - 84.8%)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 388-460 (92.3 - 109.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 366-432 (121.5 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 249-294 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Heracross

252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 344-408 (97.7 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 450-540 (111.3 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 170-210 (44.7 - 55.2%) -- approx. 60.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 678-800 (105.6 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 140-170 (36.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- approx. 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 380-450 (100.7 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 210-255 (69.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 440-520 (124.6 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now tell me, would you rather use one of those two, who have a weakness removed by rain, or mega swampert who can barely 2HKO many bulky ou mons with rain boosted STAB? Mega Swampert is obviously outclassed in the role of rain nuke/sweeper whereas megagross and Heracross don't even have rain boost on their side in those calcs. Mega Heracrosss can also boost its attack with swords dance, and mega metagross can essentially get a swift swim boost by using rock polish.

 

[x-terminate]

You could say the same about crocune, it better bulk on both ends of the spectrum(without factoring in intimidate) and its main STAB move has a thirty percent chance to half the damage of the two moves that many people think have pushed him over the threshold of broken in OU.

But crocune is specially based, and you can't discount intimidate. It's one of the main drawing points of the set, and what makes it a fantastic mixed tank, along with special wall. Meanwhile Suicune invests in physical rather then special defense, doesn't have an immunity to ground or resistance to fighting and is weak to grass. Obviously it takes electric attacks better, and the chance of a scald burn is nice. But suicune is heavily reliant on calm mind to do any sort of damage. And has no room for phazing on the crocune set. Sure you force greninja out or make it eat a scald after gunk shorting you for 30% damage. But most of the time you're going to force greninja out and hit your opponents water resisit with a pitifully weak unbooated uninvested scald off of Suicune's below average special attack. Aside from being bulky water types (with very different weaknesses and resistances mind you) who counter greninja and use resttalk they are played and played against very differently.

Edit: Also forgot to mention that rest talk is a secondary set for gyara which isn't as good in this meta as its bulky dd set. But is an alternative for a more defensively minded approach. Whereas Crocune is literally the only OU viable thing suicune can do.

 

[MANNAT]

But crocune is specially based, and you can't discount intimidate. It's one of the main drawing points of the set, and what makes it a fantastic mixed tank, along with special wall. Meanwhile Suicune invests in physical rather then special defense, doesn't have an immunity to ground or resistance to fighting and is weak to grass. Obviously it takes electric attacks better, and the chance of a scald burn is nice. But suicune is heavily reliant on calm mind to do any sort of damage. And has no room for phazing on the crocune set. Sure you force greninja out or make it eat a scald after gunk shorting you for 30% damage. But most of the time you're going to force greninja out and hit your opponents water resisit with a pitifully weak unbooated uninvested scald off of Suicune's below average special attack. Aside from being bulky water types (with very different weaknesses and resistances mind you) who counter greninja and use resttalk they are played and played against very differently.

Edit: Also forgot to mention that rest talk is a secondary set for gyara which isn't as good in this meta as its bulky dd set. But is an alternative for a more defensively minded approach. Whereas Crocune is literally the only OU viable thing suicune can do.

Suicune outclasses gyarados as a restalker, but gyarados outclasses suicune in any other bulky role.

 

[Hootie]

We've been discussing Swampert for like 3 pages now. This thing should go to B- because:

Pros:
- Electric Immunity
- ITS BUUUUUULLLLLKYYYYYY

Cons:
- Weaker compared to other water sweepers
- Takes up your mega
- Doesn't get Swift Swim activated until turn two

Please don't call Mega Swampert a "wall-breaker." It's just not fair to the Pokemon that actually manage to overpower things. There's so many things that can check Mega Swampert it's ridiculous. I can send in things that aren't that bulky but have reliable recovery and just stall this guy out of rain turns. I honestly just don't see that much of a point in using this thing rather than the standard water sweepers. I'd rather use my mega for some nice support or to get some type synergy going. I also don't see how Swampert "crushes" Ferrothorn when half of those things run Power Whip and it loses at most 54% health from Hammer Arm without even being fully defensively invested. Sure that wears it down, but there are non-mega options that take Ferrothorn pretty well too. Or maybe I can just run Mega Heracross, switch it into Ferrothorn, and get a nearly guaranteed kill on the enemy team! But who needs Ferrothorn when I can just switch my Rotom-W in that have on half of my teams... Unless I'm missing out on something really big I don't see how Swampert deseves B, much less B+.

Okay for that second con, every mega Pokemon faces fierce competition with other MegaEvos. Yes it's high opportunity cost, but Swampert is the only Mega Swift-swimmer making him have a well-defined niche on rains teams. And before you say it, yes Mega Heracross is good on rain and so is Mega Manectric, but they are just other options that can be used for the rain archetype. The same goes for any play style. When building any sort of team whether it would be stall or offense ofc there will be large opportunity cost when deciding on Mega. As for that third con, a lot of MegaEvos face the issue of slow speed before they evolve like Diancie, Metagross, etc. Some pokemon that have slow speed before evolving are evn frail making it harder to evolve. Swampert at least has good bulk uninvested and his immunity to electric provides way more than you think for rain teams as stopping your opponents momentum with volt switch is huge. Ever since that one guy came in and said Swampert was weak with wrong calcs, everyone has been coming in theory-moning why it isn't good as well as downplaying all of his advantages while in practice, he is great late game cleaner and wincon for Rain teams.

 

[Srn]

Okay for that second con, every mega Pokemon faces fierce competition with other MegaEvos. Yes it's high opportunity cost, but Swampert is the only Mega Swift-swimmer making him have a well-defined niche on rains teams. And before you say it, yes Mega Heracross is good on rain and so is Mega Manectric, but they are just other options that can be used for the rain archetype. The same goes for any play style. When building any sort of team whether it would be stall or offense ofc there will be large opportunity cost when deciding on Mega. As for that third con, a lot of MegaEvos face the issue of slow speed before they evolve like Diancie, Metagross, etc. Some pokemon that have slow speed before evolving are evn frail making it harder to evolve. Swampert at least has good bulk uninvested and his immunity to electric provides way more than you think for rain teams as stopping your opponents momentum with volt switch is huge. Ever since that one guy came in and said Swampert was weak with wrong calcs, everyone has been coming in theory-moning why it isn't good as well as downplaying all of his advantages while in practice, he is great late game cleaner and wincon for Rain teams.

I think you're looking at this a little wrong: just because you have a mega with swift swim, that doesn't mean its automatically better than other megas on rain teams.
Sure, mega swampert fits on rain teams (and only on rain teams), but that still doesn't mean that its good on them. The only thing it brings is some extra bulk and an electric answer in exchange for your entire mega slot, which could be put to FAR better use. Rain really doesn't need a better matchup against offense it rapes the playstyle naturally. Its hardly a better cleaner than kingdra or kabu or omastar is, considering the bulk is pretty much gone when you have to take a hit to get swift swim up.
The issue with opportunity cost isn't so prevalent necessarily on other teams as it is on rain with mega swampert because the biggest reason megas suck due to opportunity cost is because there are better options. Char-x is perfectly fine on stall, but by not using mega sableye, a mon that does way more for stall, you lose a lot, and char-x's opportunity cost skyrockets.
This is how it works with mega swampert; mega swampert really isn't that great for rain teams and there are just better options, such as the ones you mentioned yourself, which are not only better but can perform outside of rain as well.
As far as the bulk issue goes, that's not really a great argument to support swampert, thats just a con for mega metagross and diancie; they just have far better traits (which are actually unique) where as mega swampert does not. If all you wanted was a volt switch stopper, seismitoad does perfectly fine; its even better at the job because it doesn't care about burns from rotom-w, the most common volt switcher. Using mega swampert as a volt switch stopper in general is a shitty argument when you lose to every variant of the most common user of the move lol.
(also that one guy w/wrong calcs was me, i corrected them and i haven't changed my mind about its lack of strength >_<)

 

[Hootie]

I think you're looking at this a little wrong: just because you have a mega with swift swim, that doesn't mean its automatically better than other megas on rain teams.
Sure, mega swampert fits on rain teams (and only on rain teams), but that still doesn't mean that its good on them. The only thing it brings is some extra bulk and an electric answer in exchange for your entire mega slot, which could be put to FAR better use. Rain really doesn't need a better matchup against offense it rapes the playstyle naturally. Its hardly a better cleaner than kingdra or kabu or omastar is, considering the bulk is pretty much gone when you have to take a hit to get swift swim up.
The issue with opportunity cost isn't so prevalent necessarily on other teams as it is on rain with mega swampert because the biggest reason megas suck due to opportunity cost is because there are better options. Char-x is perfectly fine on stall, but by not using mega sableye, a mon that does way more for stall, you lose a lot, and char-x's opportunity cost skyrockets.
This is how it works with mega swampert; mega swampert really isn't that great for rain teams and there are just better options, such as the ones you mentioned yourself, which are not only better but can perform outside of rain as well.
As far as the bulk issue goes, that's not really a great argument to support swampert, thats just a con for mega metagross and diancie; they just have far better traits (which are actually unique) where as mega swampert does not. If all you wanted was a volt switch stopper, seismitoad does perfectly fine; its even better at the job because it doesn't care about burns from rotom-w, the most common volt switcher. Using mega swampert as a volt switch stopper in general is a shitty argument when you lose to every variant of the most common user of the move lol.
(also that one guy w/wrong calcs was me, i corrected them and i haven't changed my mind about its lack of strength >_<)

I never said in that post that he was the best option. Stop discounting that the fact that he has well defined niche on rain teams. Seismitoad also is only more powerful with one attack. Swampert is best for when the whole team is worn down and his checks are gone. And really he loses to all volt switchers? Last time I checked, Mega Manectric and Raikou cannot do jack shit to him while he swiftly OHKOs. The only one that it does lose to 1v1 is Rotom-W but it's easy to wear it down with teammates.

 

[Srn]

I never said in that post that he was the best option. Stop discounting that the fact that he has well defined niche on rain teams. Seismitoad also is only more powerful with one attack. Swampert is best for when the whole team is worn down and his checks are gone. And really he loses to all volt switchers? Last time I checked, Mega Manectric and Raikou cannot do jack shit to him while he swiftly OHKOs. The only one that it does lose to 1v1 is Rotom-W but it's easy to wear it down with teammates.

When did i say it lost to all volt switchers lol

Using mega swampert as a volt switch stopper in general is a shitty argument when you lose to every variant of the most common user of the move lol.

lrn2read

Whats the point of even stopping volt switch if you have to wear down the most common user of it to beat it anyways; its a shitty argument from its core.
Also, the point of my argument IS to discount its niche on rain teams, i'm trying to say its useless!
Mega Swampert is barely even more powerful than seismitoad and WAYYYY weaker than kingdra, kabu, or omastar; and slower than the first two as well. Mega swampert brings nothing to rain teams that it does not already have, its just a half-assed combination of some shit to save a teamslot in exchange for ur entire mega slot, which is a shitty teambuilding choice to make in the first place.

Swampert is best for when the whole team is worn down and his checks are gone.

Well no shit, that applies to every offensive pokemon in the game

 

[firehusky]

Actually back when mega manectric was still in UU, I saw it running HP grass sometimes for swampert, but that is kinda irrelevant right now.
All rain megas (manectric, heracross, scizor, swampert) have niches on rain teams. As for the seismitoad stuff, just use kingdra. It's a better special attacker, and it can go mixed. Kingdra is an epic partner for mega swampert because they attack on both sides of the spectrum and can overwhelm checks and counters like ferrothorn. You can't ignore the fact that swampert is a better option than mega heracross at late game cleaning, because it's faster in rain due to swift swim. Of course, I also can't ignore the fact that mega heracross is much better at wrecking stall than mega swampert, thanks to a much higher attack stat. As Srn said, rain naturally does pretty well against offense, due to most mons on offense being frail, while rain does have more trouble against stall, due to the extra speed not helping as much. It all really depends on how your rain team is set up. If you have a rain team that works well against stall (slap on taunt + nasty plot thundurus, or some random set up sweeper), then you might as well go ahead and use mega swampert as your rain mega because then you can do well against both stall and offense. If you have a rain team that works really well against offense (lots of strong swift swimmers like specs kingdra and LO kabutops), then you would probably use mega heracross as your rain mega because then you would naturally have a tougher time against stall.


tl;dr, mega heracross and mega swampert are both equally good rain megas, mega cross is just better at breaking apart stall, mega swampert is a lot better against offense. Use your mega slot on whichever archetype you struggle against (offense or stall), if you have a bad matchup against stall, go with mega heracross. If you have a bad matchup against offense, then just use mega swampert. One isn't really better than the other...

 

[DylanTubularK]

Actually back when mega manectric was still in UU, I saw it running HP grass sometimes for swampert, but that is kinda irrelevant right now.
All rain megas (manectric, heracross, scizor, swampert) have niches on rain teams. As for the seismitoad stuff, just use kingdra. It's a better special attacker, and it can go mixed. Kingdra is an epic partner for mega swampert because they attack on both sides of the spectrum and can overwhelm checks and counters like ferrothorn. You can't ignore the fact that swampert is a better option than mega heracross at late game cleaning, because it's faster in rain due to swift swim. Of course, I also can't ignore the fact that mega heracross is much better at wrecking stall than mega swampert, thanks to a much higher attack stat. As Srn said, rain naturally does pretty well against offense, due to most mons on offense being frail, while rain does have more trouble against stall, due to the extra speed not helping as much. It all really depends on how your rain team is set up. If you have a rain team that works well against stall (slap on taunt + nasty plot thundurus, or some random set up sweeper), then you might as well go ahead and use mega swampert as your rain mega because then you can do well against both stall and offense. If you have a rain team that works really well against offense (lots of strong swift swimmers like specs kingdra and LO kabutops), then you would probably use mega heracross as your rain mega because then you would naturally have a tougher time against stall.


tl;dr, mega heracross and mega swampert are both equally good rain megas, mega cross is just better at breaking apart stall, mega swampert is a lot better against offense. Use your mega slot on whichever archetype you struggle against (offense or stall), if you have a bad matchup against stall, go with mega heracross. If you have a bad matchup against offense, then just use mega swampert. One isn't really better than the other...

Note I've never actually played rain, but I believe it's worth noting that as far as I know, Mega Hera was never used for late game cleaning on Rain.

 

[Hootie]

Actually back when mega manectric was still in UU, I saw it running HP grass sometimes for swampert, but that is kinda irrelevant right now.
All rain megas (manectric, heracross, scizor, swampert) have niches on rain teams. As for the seismitoad stuff, just use kingdra. It's a better special attacker, and it can go mixed. Kingdra is an epic partner for mega swampert because they attack on both sides of the spectrum and can overwhelm checks and counters like ferrothorn. You can't ignore the fact that swampert is a better option than mega heracross at late game cleaning, because it's faster in rain due to swift swim. Of course, I also can't ignore the fact that mega heracross is much better at wrecking stall than mega swampert, thanks to a much higher attack stat. As Srn said, rain naturally does pretty well against offense, due to most mons on offense being frail, while rain does have more trouble against stall, due to the extra speed not helping as much. It all really depends on how your rain team is set up. If you have a rain team that works well against stall (slap on taunt + nasty plot thundurus, or some random set up sweeper), then you might as well go ahead and use mega swampert as your rain mega because then you can do well against both stall and offense. If you have a rain team that works really well against offense (lots of strong swift swimmers like specs kingdra and LO kabutops), then you would probably use mega heracross as your rain mega because then you would naturally have a tougher time against stall.


tl;dr, mega heracross and mega swampert are both equally good rain megas, mega cross is just better at breaking apart stall, mega swampert is a lot better against offense. Use your mega slot on whichever archetype you struggle against (offense or stall), if you have a bad matchup against stall, go with mega heracross. If you have a bad matchup against offense, then just use mega swampert. One isn't really better than the other...

Hera is good for breaking down Mons that annoy rain teams such as Ferro not late game cleaning. They have completely different purposes like you stated. And Srn sorry about misreading that. I probably should not post between my For glory matches in smash :p

 

[firehusky]

lol I never said it was.
Mega heracross is used on rain to break common stall mons like chansey and ferrothorn. Who even tries to clean late game with a base 75 speed mon not holding a choice scarf. I said that mega swampert is used for late game cleaning, and mega swampert is used for wallbreaking purposes.

edit: ninja'd >_<

 

[tigers jaw]

So I'm stupidly bored right now, might as well give my thoughts on Mega Swampert after giving it a try.

Swampert is bad

This thing has been praised as the revival of rain, which is simply not true. It is little but new toy syndrome. It is actively worse than Kabutops in all areas barring one thing: it cannot be Volt-Switched on and it cannot be paralysed by Thundurus-I's Thunder Wave. Those pros do not outweigh the cons of using Mega Swampert over another mega which has incredible defensive or offensive synergy with the rain archetype, namely Heracross (crushes all things that stand in rain's way, Chansey, Ferro etc.), Scizor (not only does it have amazing synergy defensively, being a Steel-type, the offensive SD set lures and beats Ferrothorn, Rotom, Chansey, and Tyranitar, and is generally incredible in the current OU meta), Sceptile (has probably the best synergy defensively with rain, 4x resisting Grass and Electric. Also destroys Rotom-W), and Mega Manectric (offers invaluable Birdspam check and benefits from 100% accurate Thunders in Rain, provides Volt-Switch support, allowing your rain abusers to get in safely).

Now let's go back to the original point of Mega Swampert being actively worse than Kabutops as a physical Swift Swim rain abuser. Kabutops outdamages Mega Swampert, quite drastically*, and also outspeeds many threats whilst outside of rain that Mega Swampert cannot outspeed (not going to list these, just go look at the list in the OP for things faster than Swampert and slower than Kabutops). Kabutops has the same tools to muscle past all of rain's checks and counters that Swampert does, such as Low Kick, but on top of that it also has a more reliable and overall better boosting move in Swords Dance, allowing it to achieve such feats as OHKOing standard 252/212+ Rotom-W, which Swampert can never hope to do (the best it can do is use Superpower, which is terrible on a rain sweeper thanks to the stat-lowering nature of the move). Now, I know there will be some people citing Mega Swampert's bulk (incredible, I admit) as a plus over Kabutops, but the biggest use of that bulk is allowing it to mega evolve safely without be fainted, as not getting Swift Swim bonus in the first turn of entering the field makes Swampert incredibly slow. Thanks to the way the turn-order mechanics work, Mega Swampert will never be able to take full advantage of that bulk, and always, always wastes an invaluable rain turn.

The few pros that Mega Swampert has over Kabutops are there, they do exist, yes - but what they do not do is outweigh the opportunity cost (excuse my buzzwording) of using Mega Swampert over another mega suited for rain. Thundurus-I is not the be-all-and-end-all for rain, as shown in the pre-MSwampert era of rain in the sixth generation. The best it can ever hope to do is cripple one of your rain abusers, as it never ever takes a rain-boosted hit from any of them and lives. Also, all of the aforementioned megas that are suited for rain check Thundurus-I incredibly well, barring Mega Scizor. There are many, many checks that rain can use for Thundurus, all of which have massive benefits and improve teams - Latias (never 2HKOed by HP Ice, provides Keldeo check, gives Healing Wish support for Swift Swim abusers), SpD Jirachi (can set rain, Stealth Rocks, has good synergy, has Healing Wish, has U-turn, etc.), Assault Vest Raikou (Never 2HKOed by any coverage move of Thundurus-I's, Birdspam check, Volt-Switch. Much the same as Mega Manectric), and SpD Bronzong (rain setter, Stealth Rocks setter, Fairy check and Lati@s switchin. Almost the same as SpD Jirachi) - they are just examples off the top of my head for what rain has to deal with Thundurus, there are many more other viable checks.

*252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus in Rain: 205-243 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus in Rain: 220-259 (57.7 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I am willing to find/post more-relevant calcs in which the power difference has a noticeable in-battle impact if you wish.

tl;dr: Swampert only really has one niche over Kabutops, and even then it isn't that big of a deal. It is heavily outclassed for the most part, brings nothing new to the archetype and is underwhelming when compared to its Swift Swim brethren. You are better off using a different MEvo for your rain team, as when paired with Kabutops you will get much more value out of that. It deserves to drop in ranking. I'd suggest B-, or C+ on a bad day.

If anyone has anything to dispute/I got something wrong, it might take a while for me to get back to you, got irl things to take care of.

 

[theV8man]

lol I never said it was.
Mega heracross is used on rain to break common stall mons like chansey and ferrothorn. Who even tries to clean late game with a base 75 speed mon not holding a choice scarf. I said that mega swampert is used for late game cleaning, and mega swampert is used for wallbreaking purposes.

edit: ninja'd >_<

How does one go about "wallbreaking" with mega swampert. It can't even reliably 2HKO things when hitting neutrally by its water boosted stab. Maybe you meant to put Mega Heracross instead of Swampert on your post. Moving on, why use it as a cleaner when you can just use another water sweeper. Sure you get the electric immunity, but I think other megas offer waaaaaay more than that to rain. I was gonna write more, but xcsmj sorta ninja'd me and said pretty much everything there is to say... It should go to B-.

 

[firehusky]

Yes, I did mean to put mega heracross instead of mega swampert. You can feel free to use mega swampert in tandem with another water sweeper. Mega swampert works well with all swift swimmers, especially kingdra. He also can pair up with kabutops and form a double physical attacker core, which can break through most physical walls after they are worn down a bit.

 

[tigers jaw]

Yes, I did mean to put mega heracross instead of mega swampert. You can feel free to use mega swampert in tandem with another water sweeper. Mega swampert works well with all swift swimmers, especially kingdra. He also can pair up with kabutops and form a double physical attacker core, which can break through most physical walls after they are worn down a bit.

Guess what other, stronger, faster, non-mega Pokemon pairs well with Kingdra? You guessed it, the reaper.

What walls is Mega Swampert paired with Kabutops breaking that SD Kabutops isn't breaking on its own? Ferrothorn? Kabutops does that. Rotom-W? Swampert can't touch it, Kabutops 2HKOes on the switch or OHKOes if it SDs on the switch. Chansey? Both 2HKO, Swampert does it unreliably though. Big Fish? Nope, Swampert doesn't help. Mega Venusaur? Swampert can 2HKO non-Defensive variants, as can Kabutops. Hippo? Doesn't help vs. that, Kabu wins and Hippo can't switch in. There are no walls that Swamperts weaker hits and generally inferior coverage helps to break, even when paired with Kabutops. If I want a wallbreaking mega for rain, I will use Heracross or Scizor, or Metagross or...

 

[AM]

Ok I've been reading some M-Swampert arguments so I'm going to just say my piece on this. Do note that I'm more inclined to see this at B than B+ now. Here are some things I've been reading that sort of made no sense or I feel needs to be addressed.

I think people are really downplaying the electric immunity thing with M-Swampert. Rain always had to contend with having mandatory electric resists / immunities and the fact Thundurus is cheesing its way through matches just by using paralysis is definitely something that can't be ignored, even more so with Swift Swim users which the last thing they want is to be paralyzed. This is important because Thundurus is on a majority of very strong offensive teams and to a lesser extent Klefki. M-Swampert bypasses the issue of Prankster Twave for rain and as such is one of the most annoying things offense has to deal with, which in most cases can't even afford to reliably switch in on it without taking some damage. Rain has for the most part always been a burden to hyper offensive and offensive builds in general and M-Swampert stopping stuff like the mentioned threats just complicates the issue even more so.

Yeah when you use the argument of M-Swampert being walled by Rotom-W of course it's going to look pretty on your end. I don't know why this is being considered an argument that it's bad when you will more than like have a secondary swift swim sweeper, usually Kingdra, along with secondary answers to its issues such as Healing Wish Latias to handle this and whatever else M-Swampert has troubles with. Also, M-Swampert isn't a wallbreaker. It's more along the lines of a heavy hitter, who has the bulk, typing, and immunities to accomplish this feat of cleaning and revenge killing under rain. Also since people are discussing it up above Kabutops is frail as hell lol. It literally needs to net the KO or potentially fall victim to its opponent while M-Swampert has the luxury of taking hits and netting the KOs regardless if they're OHKO or 2HKO.

The speed argument is an exaggeration honestly and by speed I'm talking about pre-mega. I didn't know that it was some sort of law that goes Politoed Turn 1 Swampert Turn 2 and then 100% of the time Swampert is outsped. You would obviously design the team to give yourself these opportunities instead of looking at it in a vacuum and assume M-Swampert is just playing by itself. The speed argument more or less has to do with a weakened Swampert, if it's at full health and it switched on something threaten by it, that's a free turn for M-Swampert and there goes the speed argument. I sort of get the speed argument with something like Diancie for example but you guys are implying it's the slowest thing on the planet like M-Camerupt and supposably this is so detrimental that apparently it's of equal value to Doublade in viability, judging from some B- noms I saw on it emphasizing this point.

About the whole opportunity cost and the statements that other megas are better in rain. The viability is based on how it functions as a whole not just in rain. It's kind of a given that M-Swampert generally will occupy this playstyle of rain by itself hence it's ranked lower than others because they can function outside of rain. There's no need to go overboard and act like M-Manectric is somehow better in rain than M-Swampert when they provide and do completely different stuff along with providing completely different offensive and defensive synergy. Same deal with M-Heracross, M-Metagross, or w/e mega you're using on rain. If it was purely shit in rain it more than likely would've been ranked lower initially but it's not. There's obviously good enough pros to justify its use on rain teams where one would want emphasis on the positive for their team while making up for the negatives. With this being said I'd be more inclined to see this at B. Not exactly sure why we have such exaggerations for stuff that should be a given.

 

[firehusky]

Dude, you've got it wrong. If you actually bothered to read my post, I was saying that obviously you would use mega hera as a wallbreaker. Use mega swampert as a cleaner. Don't try to compare mega swampert to mega heracross, because they are completely different. Of course mega heracross is a better wallbreaker, it has a much higher attack stat. But guess what, mega swampert is a better cleaner because of swift swim and reliable move accuracy.