I thought that too for a while, but the more I experience I gain with Honchkrow, the more I realize it has serious problems. For a wallbreaker it has an awful lot of good checks, including just about every bulky water not named Slowking. It's also super frail, its main stab move causes a ridiculous amount of recoil with Life Orb and even most neutral STAB moves can 2HKO it. Sure, a wallbreaker by definition doesn't need to last long as long as it is able to break a hole in the opponent's team, but Honchkrow really struggles to do that thanks to the aforementioned bulky waters. STAB Sucker Punch is a godsend for Honchkrow, since it's meh speed means it would be super easy to revenge kill without it, but it's also super predictable and easy to play around. Good old Mafia Crow certainly has a niche in this tier, but I think it has too many flaws to be rated in the same place as it's fellow wallbreaker Darmanitan.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter dingbat
- Start date
- Status
Yanmega is a gud 'mon; I've seen many battles of it being used lately and it definitely deserves A rank.
Buckyball will swap ranks with LINDA (B <=> B+)
Changes will come soonish
I'd like to see more input on Mega Blastoise for A+ rank since, on the other hand, I have not had much experience with or against it lately. Same with Croak to B+ since its effectiveness is largely matchup reliant but its amount of opportunities to set up and dish damage is not too bad so if you guys support, I'm certainly not opposed to that.
I disagree with Honch; in higher ladder play, it's very easy to play around it since literally all of Honchkrow's best physical moves have some kinds of drawbacks and overall it's easy to play around it.
If you don't see an archived list of ranks before your 2015 starts, that's because your time zone is dumb and doesn't give one second of time to slow down. :)
And now I'd like to wish y'all a (early) Happy New namehtmas.
Buckyball will swap ranks with LINDA (B <=> B+)
Changes will come soonish
I'd like to see more input on Mega Blastoise for A+ rank since, on the other hand, I have not had much experience with or against it lately. Same with Croak to B+ since its effectiveness is largely matchup reliant but its amount of opportunities to set up and dish damage is not too bad so if you guys support, I'm certainly not opposed to that.
I disagree with Honch; in higher ladder play, it's very easy to play around it since literally all of Honchkrow's best physical moves have some kinds of drawbacks and overall it's easy to play around it.
If you don't see an archived list of ranks before your 2015 starts, that's because your time zone is dumb and doesn't give one second of time to slow down. :)
And now I'd like to wish y'all a (early) Happy New namehtmas.
I won't argue the fact that Honchkrow is a big threat in the tier, however because of that basically everything in the tier creeps it to prevent it from doing too much damage. 242 speed is basically a staple speed for a large majority of mons such as Tentacruel, Celebi, Fletchinder, and quite a bit more. The tier is just way too prepared for it to move up in viability right now imo. Stay B Rank
On the topic of Mega Stoise, I'm kind of on the fence about it moving up. Although it is without a doubt the best offensive rapid spinner in the tier especially now that sableye has left, it does face a lot of non-mega spinning competition from the likes of Starmie, Tentacruel, Forretress, and Donphan. Adding on to the fact that Blastoise struggles hard against balance and stall, more specifically things like Vaporeon, Umbreon, and Blissey. Balance right now I want to say is the most popular play style and Vaporeon is extremely common on balance, taking only about 30% from dark pulse it can just fish for a burn and wish tect up. Even with the new mega hype dying down it just isn't as dominant as it used to be. Stay A Rank
Don't have too much experience with Yanmega and Toxicroak in the current meta so I won't touch on them right now.
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Mblast has the potential to go A+. Sables departure makes his spinning job a lot easier since sableye was the only hindrance to blast's job. He'll definitely go a+ if MegaZam gets banned.
Hey guys, just joined Smogon forums! Anyways, I joined to put in my feedback about Galvantula. In my opinion, it's a lot better than Shuckle as a sticky web setter. Even though Shuckle is a lot bulkier, Galvantula's typing allows it to deal with spinners such as Starmie and Tentacruel with it's electric STAB. It can also fight off popular leads such as Azelf and Espeon, dealing major damage to them. Sash guarantees it will take a hit as well, and volt switch allows it to retreat if the opponent uses an unfavorable lead. Nominating Galvantula for B+.
Could I ask why Haxorus is B+ Rank? With all the ORAS Fairy Megas gone, the metagame is somewhat similar to late XY (where Haxorus was A+). It's SD set is still a great stallbreaker and its DD set is still as deadly as it was late XY. 147 Attack is no joke, especially since +1 Adamant Haxorus outspeeds the entire unscarfed tier (including M-Aerodactyl, M-Alakazam and M-Sceptile). I honestly can't see why Haxorus shouldn't be at least A Rank.
The biggest issue with Haxorus is that it has very limited set-up opportunities. First off, Haxorus is painfully frail and very susceptible to status, which leaves him with very limited set-up opportunities. Second, although there are arguably less fairies in the metagame, the defensive fairies that exist still handle him very well. A big component of this is that Outrage is no longer a good "go-to" spam move after a Swords Dance since Fairy is obviously immune. Anyway, the SD set is hilariously easy to revenge-kill and the DD set is way too slow for UU. The speed benchmark is defined by Hydreigon's base Speed 98, and Haxorus falls just right under that. Essentially, Haxorus needs two Dragon Dances to sweep without being revenge-killed by Scarfers, and as stated before, Haxo has very limited set-up opportunities, let alone two set-up opportunities.
And the fact that Zygarde is a much better dragon dance user doesn't help Haxorus much either. Zygarde is bulkier, giving it more set up opportunities and has access to Espeed, a godsend move for any physical sweeper. Side note on what RyanKoopa said: Zygarde is the main reason most bulky waters carry ice moves, which says a lot about its sweeping potential over Haxorus's. This basically only leaves SD and Double Dance left for Haxorus, and Zygarde's sub coil set is arguably better versus stall. So yeah, Zygarde just outclasses Haxorus greatly right now.
Hi everyone! I'm new at smogon's forum, but I've played competitively since X and Y came out. I did a lot of ORAS battles and I really want to help out at updating new UU viability rank. I hope you would take some of my thoughts to consideration. Here's a few od them:
Dragalge: from B to B+. First of all it's typing is quite handy which gives it a lot of switch-in potencial fairly common typings such as grass, fighting and water. Second of all it's really endurable which makes him nice revenge killer. For example:
252 SpA Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 170-200 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (added mega Sceptile's base sp.attack)
And probably the biggest shocker for me - it hits harder than a fckin Hydra:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 301-355 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I know, modest specs Hydreigon isn't a thing but that's just for comparison. As B rank description says it has more notable flaws than those above them like eq weakness, bad speed and no real way of hitting steel types. Overall I think it's a fair trade-off.
Mega Swampert: from A- to B+. Okay I love this mega and it reminds me my new years resolution, but i don't think it matches A rank too well. It is indeed a good weather sweeper with really good attack and decent speed, but weather isn't too accessible in UU. Drizzle is BL and probably the best prankster weather support, Sableye, went to OU. It has literally one set which is sweeper set and no reliable recovery. Regular Swampert can hit harder with a choice band, set rocks as a lead, and have some form of recovery with a chesto - resto set. As I said before grass is a common typing, especially in UU (seroisly check out how many grass type moves users are there) and you need rocks on the field to beat for example sash Galvantula with energy ball. And onec again as B rank description says "They can all still function very well given the right team support". It perfectly matches with the things i said before. Still really stong pokemon, but it requires a lot of support. Speaking of.....
Meowstic-Male: from Unranked to C. This is kinda Sableye's replacement, but it brings some new stuff too. It has a lot of supportive moves to go along with it's ability - prankster. To name few: t-wave, toxic, screnns, trick, yawn, trick room, sunny day and rain dance and heal bell, which makes him the first priority status healer in history. It's bulk is even better than Sableye's and it has usable sp. attack with access to calm mind. Unfortunately no will-o wisp and recover or taunt really hunts it a lot.
Altaria to D rank- well, it's technically still UU, right?
Once again I hope I helped out a bit. It took me like a 2 hours to write it and I'm a little bit nervous.
Also I'm from Poland and our flag is white and red. Some random generator chose Voltorb as my avatar and Voltorb is red and white. Conincidence? I think not :)
252 SpA Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 170-200 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (added mega Sceptile's base sp.attack)
And probably the biggest shocker for me - it hits harder than a fckin Hydra:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 301-355 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I know, modest specs Hydreigon isn't a thing but that's just for comparison. As B rank description says it has more notable flaws than those above them like eq weakness, bad speed and no real way of hitting steel types. Overall I think it's a fair trade-off.
Altaria to D rank- well, it's technically still UU, right?
Once again I hope I helped out a bit. It took me like a 2 hours to write it and I'm a little bit nervous.
Also I'm from Poland and our flag is white and red. Some random generator chose Voltorb as my avatar and Voltorb is red and white. Conincidence? I think not :)
Hi everyone! I'm new at smogon's forum, but I've played competitively since X and Y came out. I did a lot of ORAS battles and I really want to help out at updating new UU viability rank. I hope you would take some of my thoughts to consideration. Here's a few od them:
Dragalge: from B to B+. First of all it's typing is quite handy which gives it a lot of switch-in potencial fairly common typings such as grass, fighting and water. Second of all it's really endurable which makes him nice revenge killer. For example:
252 SpA Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 170-200 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (added mega Sceptile's base sp.attack)
And probably the biggest shocker for me - it hits harder than a fckin Hydra:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 301-355 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I know, modest specs Hydreigon isn't a thing but that's just for comparison. As B rank description says it has more notable flaws than those above them like eq weakness, bad speed and no real way of hitting steel types. Overall I think it's a fair trade-off.
Mega Swampert: from A- to B+. Okay I love this mega and it reminds me my new years resolution, but i don't think it matches A rank too well. It is indeed a good weather sweeper with really good attack and decent speed, but weather isn't too accessible in UU. Drizzle is BL and probably the best prankster weather support, Sableye, went to OU. It has literally one set which is sweeper set and no reliable recovery. Regular Swampert can hit harder with a choice band, set rocks as a lead, and have some form of recovery with a chesto - resto set. As I said before grass is a common typing, especially in UU (seroisly check out how many grass type moves users are there) and you need rocks on the field to beat for example sash Galvantula with energy ball. And onec again as B rank description says "They can all still function very well given the right team support". It perfectly matches with the things i said before. Still really stong pokemon, but it requires a lot of support. Speaking of.....
Meowstic-Male: from Unranked to C. This is kinda Sableye's replacement, but it brings some new stuff too. It has a lot of supportive moves to go along with it's ability - prankster. To name few: t-wave, toxic, screnns, trick, yawn, trick room, sunny day and rain dance and heal bell, which makes him the first priority status healer in history. It's bulk is even better than Sableye's and it has usable sp. attack with access to calm mind. Unfortunately no will-o wisp and recover or taunt really hunts it a lot.
Altaria to D rank- well, it's technically still UU, right?
Once again I hope I helped out a bit. It took me like a 2 hours to write it and I'm a little bit nervous.
Also I'm from Poland and our flag is white and red. Some random generator chose Voltorb as my avatar and Voltorb is red and white. Conincidence? I think not :)
First of all, welcome to smogon! I agree with one of your nominations, but not the other three. Dragalge is a really nice wallbreaker which just slaps anything that isn't a steel type, since Sludge Bomb/Wave hits fairies and draco hits everything but fairies and steels. Unfortunately its speed and lack of reliable recovery which means it has a hard type switching in to anything holds it back, but Dragalge probably warrants a move up to B+.
Mega Swampert gets access to rain dance, if you didn't know, allowing it to be a solo-rain sweeper, and plenty of stuff in the tier gets rain dance to support it if you really don't wanna run Rain Dance + 3 attacks Mega-Pert. Sure it might not hit as hard as CB pert but under rain it gets a rain-boosted Waterfall and the ability to outspeed almost the whole meta (if I remember correctly, it doesn't outspeed scarf hydreigon and stuff above that.) Most grass types in the tier don't appreciate Ice Punch, and most are worn down throughout the course of the match (see Shaymin, Roserade, offensive Celebi.) In my experience I've found it's very hard to switch in on and it has great natural bulk meaning it's harder to revenge kill. Focus Sash Galvantula usually doesn't have its sash after turn 1 since it usually sets up sticky web turn 1 and the opponent will choose to break its sash meaning it's not a reliable check to Rain Dance Pert. I've honestly never heard of chesto-resto swampert before but megapert has more offensive presence and the ability to sweep teams. It deserves to stay A- IMO.
Meowstic has been mentioned before, I believe. Sure it has prankster, but it has almost no natural bulk, not a great typing, being weak to Knock Off/U-turn, and its support options are either not useful or used better by other pokemon. Prankster T-Wave and Toxic are interesting options, however it's rather obvious meowstic would carry prankster twave so it's rather predictable. With the vast popularity of balance teams carrying clerics these days, the value of getting off prankster status has decreased, since Meowstic isn't going to be taking hits from the mons it t-waves. Toxic is kind of just better on mons that can take hits since it's not outright crippling a pokemon like thunder wave would. Screens have been talked about before but they can be just defogged away. Yawn is a very very situational move and not incredibly useful. Rain dance is decent support for megapert but there's better prankster rain setters (see: Tornadus). And finally, heal bell is much better on a more defensive pokemon. Doesn't really warrant a move up into the viability rankings at all imo.
And finally, Altaria is not viable in this tier at all (unless someone does something with Altaria that is monumental and causes its usage and viability to spike, which I doubt will happen) so it shouldn't get a spot. Just because it's in UU for the time being doesn't mean it should be on the viability rankings.
Diancie is often overlooked due to the bizarre notion that its only niche is setting up Trick Room. However, this is not the case, as it runs an effective offensive rocker set that matches up nicely to the God of Defog (crobat), allowing it to be one of the more reliable rock setters in the tier. This set was rather underwhelming before ORAS due to its lack of coverage, relying on the weak HP Fire to deal any damage to Steel types, while still finding itself walled by Nidos, Empoleon, Rachi, Defensive Arcanine, Tentacruel, and Coballion among others. As many already know from using the mega form, ORAS blessed Diance with Earth Power; while the hype of this boon was directed toward its mega form, it was also huge for regular Diancie allowing it to nail the aforementioned pokemon. Its ability to check a large portion of the metagame has also gone largely unnoticed. Due to its formidable 50/150/150 defenses and unique typing, it is a decent stop/check to many common threats such as Bird Jesus, Alakazam(shaky check), Infernape, Hydriegon (w/o iron tail), Chandy, Darm and a few less relavent 'mons like PZ, Noivern, Honchcrow, and a few others.
Along with all this, Diancie the PREMIER Trick Room setter, and it is almost a must have on any good Trick Room team due to its fairy typing which allows it to synergize well with other TR setters, all of which (bar P2), are weak to dark types. For more evidence on that, here is dodman's Dark Horse team from 2 months ago (Diancie is even better now under TR with Earth Power in its arsenal).
The only thing holding Diancie back from being in the B+ to A range is its' typing. The Rock type has been, and always will be, a mixed bag; offensively it is great, defensively it leaves Diancie weak to two of the most common attacking types in the game (Water and Ground), while also giving it a crippling weakness to Steel in a tier that revolves around Jirachi.
All in all it is a good pokemon and it deserves a boost.
EDIT: So apparently Rachi is going OU when the year turns, so this makes Diancie all the more viable.
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Thanks a lot for constructive criticism. I really do appreciate it but you got some things wrong.
So I assumed rain dance M Swampert is pretty obvious, but it is pretty damn hard to set up for him in meta filled with grass types. Galvantula is mostly lead, so is most of M Swamperts. Even if M Pert isn't a lead, sticky web decreases chance of it sweeping a lot. Also meta has some big suprises for it, for example gross knot is really common on Infernapes and Empoleons, giga drain on Tentacruel and Whimsicott seems to become a thing. Yanmega after 1 speed boost also outspeeds regular set (156 speed adamant) under the rain. You need those 3 moves to hit everything decently so there's no way of beating M Abomasnow:
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 96-114 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
That moves limit also makes you unable to use bulk up effectively so it's like M Chomp. You lose a lot of versatility to become predictable (at least M Chomp can use swords dance). To sum things up - meta is prepared for it too well.
Note: Shedinja walls it
Okay so Meowstic is weak to u-turn and knock off which are both extremely common I have to admit it, but priority t-wave is a huge help which shuts down things like M Beedrill and M Aero, M Alakazam, Crobat, scarf Rachi , scarf Hydreigon and scarf Mienshao. I don't think it's predictable at all. It's PU and you see those higher than RU very rarely. Bad bulk? Whimsicott's bulk is 60/85/75 and Meowtic's bulk is 74/76/81. Yes i know that Whimsi has sub leech set (the most annoing thing in the world). Stun spore can hit ground types, but has just bad accuracy, which makes it urealiable. Also Meowstic as a sun support is prefect Toxicroak sash counter (first turn psyshock then he keeps spaming s punch and you have a copule of turns to set up some barriers or calm minds then finally finish him off with a sunny day) and gets infiltrator with some nice coverage. I don't want to bring it up again but C rank description says: Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon, or their niches aren't all too useful for the current metagame. Sounds like Meowstic is too good for it.
Altaria was last minute decision just to prevent some newbies from saying "give altaria A cuz d dance".
I'm happy you liked Dragalge nomination and I hope I've cleared some things out.
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Welcome to smogon.
Actually I don't think Galvantula deals with Starmie or Tentacruel all that well.
252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 338-398 (129 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yes Galvantula will OHKO if it hits but like Hydro Pump it is inaccurate (is 10% more accurate to boot). Starmie will outspeed Galvantula and more times often than not, it will be scarfed and knock it out with a hydro pump.
252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 254-300 (70.3 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
This is Tentacruel with no spd evs at all and still it is a 2HKO but again the accuracy of Thunder is an issue. Tentacruel can set up its toxic spikes and then switch out or hard predict this to a ground pokemon.
Espeon outspeeds it and if it has full spa evs, it can knock it out with psychic and Azelf has flamethrower to take it out. 108 speed is pretty terrible in this gen because of centralization of speed in this tier.
Honestly just by what I see, Shuckle is the better choice. Galvantula doesn't outspeed the main threats in the UU tier, with pitiful defenses and has no reliable recovery move, hence it usually sets up once and dies. Would rather have something that has more longevity and can trap the opponent with taunt/encore.
It is fine where it is.
Indeed, Adamant m-swampert at max speed reaches 239, in rain it doubles so it reaches 478 so any scarfer above 318 speed will be able to outspeed it. So the only real target with m-swampert is m-sceptile to nail it with an ice punch (you just need 156 speed to outspeed a timid one in rain so you can add the rest of evs in hp). Jolly m-swampert is a waste, too much power lost.
Math aside, I support that m-swampert on A-. It can stand by itself using the rd + 3 attacks set also it doesnt give up any coverage since in UU there isnt a grass type like ferro that could tank an ice punch. All the grass types dislike ice punch so m-swampert in this metagame have all the coverage it needs so it can afford rain dance and be a pain to a lot of teams, especially offense. It has fantastic bulk for a swift swimmer too!
A- is good for m-swampert atm.
Not justifying Galvantula at all, but Compound Eyes really negates a lot of the Thunder accuracy issues. Unfortunately, it really isn't strong enough to do much with it, nor can it repeatedly set up Sticky Webs. As a hyper-offense lead, it just seems to be less effective as Azelf/Froslass.
Galvantula is staying in B- rank; not being able to set up webs multiple times in a match is a huge disadvantage, and Sticky Webs in general is not that great.
Mega Swampert is staying in A-.
I'll probably move Draggy up if and after Rachi leaves the tier.
Meowstic is a no-go, unless I can get solid proof that it's actually rankworthy in practice (which is why I ranked Gourgeist!!!).
With that being said, pce out 2014
Mega Swampert is staying in A-.
I'll probably move Draggy up if and after Rachi leaves the tier.
Meowstic is a no-go, unless I can get solid proof that it's actually rankworthy in practice (which is why I ranked Gourgeist!!!).
With that being said, pce out 2014
what is defensive Celebi gonna do to Honchkrow, just wondering
you make a good point i understand.
Celebi can get up rocks before it dies, T-wave it, BP/U-Turn out, hit it with dazzling gleam if it has it, or whatever else you have on it. Celebi's movepool is really big, just because its STABs won't do much to honch doesn't mean it can't function against it.
Alright so I've been playing with Celebi for the past couple of weeks and I am rather convinced that it deserves to be A+ rank atm. There are a multitude of reasons behind this thought and I'll go into them here.
Celebi's two most common sets these days are Swords Dance and Weakness Pass. Both of these sets, while similar, provide unique threats to opposing teams. Weak Pass can capitalize on a single free turn and flip the game on its head by giving +2 to the tiers most dangerous boosters. It does this thanks to its fantastic bulk and common weaknesses. It lives pretty much any U-turn in the tier and basically wins you the game. This set alone is highly potent but Celebi is not only limited to giving boosts to its teammates. Celebi's STAB combo and great bulk help it absolutely dismantle common balance teams.
"Standard" balance includes these mons fairly regularly: Roserade, Shaymin, Swampert, Vaporeon, Darmanitan, Arcanine, Crobat, Jirachi, Entei, Suicune, Raikou, etc. None of these pokemon aside from Arcanine have the bulk or recovery to consistently switch in and deal with SD Celebi. Roserade gets outsped and killed by Zen Headbutt. Shaymin can't touch Celebi aside from Air Slash. Swampert, Vaporeon, and Suicune are all set up bait, even if they carry Ice Beam. Entei and Darmanitan easily get whittled down with Zen Headbutt and Stealth Rock. Crobat cannot switch into Zen Headbutt. Jirachi dies to +2 Sucker Punch. Raikou is set up bait most times.
Obviously there are other Pokemon that are commonly seen on balance but when I think of balance I think of these Pokemon almost exclusively. Celebi is able to very easily capitalize on the plethora of bulky Water-types and punish very easily what is often the only switch in a team has in Crobat. If this weren't enough, Celebi can also surprise opponents with a Nasty Plot set that can destroy common counters such as Hydreigon with a Life Orb boosted Dazzling Gleam.
After playing with SD Celebi extensively I can say that it is by far one of the most effective win conditions that I've seen in awhile. It has the ability to set up boosts almost every game and if played well can sweep entire teams with ease.
Celebi for A+
A=>A+
Alright so I've been playing with Celebi for the past couple of weeks and I am rather convinced that it deserves to be A+ rank atm. There are a multitude of reasons behind this thought and I'll go into them here.
Celebi's two most common sets these days are Swords Dance and Weakness Pass. Both of these sets, while similar, provide unique threats to opposing teams. Weak Pass can capitalize on a single free turn and flip the game on its head by giving +2 to the tiers most dangerous boosters. It does this thanks to its fantastic bulk and common weaknesses. It lives pretty much any U-turn in the tier and basically wins you the game. This set alone is highly potent but Celebi is not only limited to giving boosts to its teammates. Celebi's STAB combo and great bulk help it absolutely dismantle common balance teams.
"Standard" balance includes these mons fairly regularly: Roserade, Shaymin, Swampert, Vaporeon, Darmanitan, Arcanine, Crobat, Jirachi, Entei, Suicune, Raikou, etc. None of these pokemon aside from Arcanine have the bulk or recovery to consistently switch in and deal with SD Celebi. Roserade gets outsped and killed by Zen Headbutt. Shaymin can't touch Celebi aside from Air Slash. Swampert, Vaporeon, and Suicune are all set up bait, even if they carry Ice Beam. Entei and Darmanitan easily get whittled down with Zen Headbutt and Stealth Rock. Crobat cannot switch into Zen Headbutt. Jirachi dies to +2 Sucker Punch. Raikou is set up bait most times.
Obviously there are other Pokemon that are commonly seen on balance but when I think of balance I think of these Pokemon almost exclusively. Celebi is able to very easily capitalize on the plethora of bulky Water-types and punish very easily what is often the only switch in a team has in Crobat. If this weren't enough, Celebi can also surprise opponents with a Nasty Plot set that can destroy common counters such as Hydreigon with a Life Orb boosted Dazzling Gleam.
After playing with SD Celebi extensively I can say that it is by far one of the most effective win conditions that I've seen in awhile. It has the ability to set up boosts almost every game and if played well can sweep entire teams with ease.
Celebi for A+
mfw i told you you should make this nom and you said you wouldnt.
anywho, i support this shit. celebi is pretty absurd, sd sweeps teams and has some serious bulk backing it up, with great dual stabs and a priority move in sucker punch. not to mention that it slays the armada of bulky waters that run the tier both offensively and defensively. it finds setups on a lot of the tier, and can do some serious amage to most teams. granted, Scarf Hydreigon is a caold stop to it's sweep if Drei is above 50%, but celebi can easily switch out, and find more setups later game. A+ is perfect.
Okay so I did a couple of battles with meowstic and here's the result:
Weather support:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-198866922
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-198868653
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-198871746
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-198873921
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-198876213
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-198878145
So as you can see Meowstic is an amazing weather support. Most of the sun abilities are reserved for grass pokemon. This means that Whimsicott will share a few big weaknesses with them.
I have won like 9 out of of 10 battles with this team.
Heal Bell support:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-198883121
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-198905994
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-198910097
This team was a little bit worse but Meowstic still was able to function pretty well.
Also worth mentioning - Leafeon is an amazing sweeper under the sun with decent bulk but with pretty bad coverage. I just think it deserves C rank.
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I don't mean to be that guy, but low ladder replays versus people that use things like Sandslash, Wigglytuff, and Hitmonchan aren't really helping your argument. I'd try going on showdown or irc and asking some more experienced players for battles if you want to use replays to prove a point.
I guess I can see your point. Although I don't think that bringing pokemon from low tiers is a bad thing I have to admit, Wiglytuff and Hitmonchan are really bad. I'm new to the forum so I don't know how proving things works here. I will definitely try to find some experienced trainers to battle. Thanks a lot.
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