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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Okay, so after using MLopunny a bit more I'd like to take back what I said about its performance against balanced/bulky offensive teams, it's way better vs them than I realised. You see, besides the lighting speed, MLop and Greninja have another thing in common : both have (albeit in two different ways) completely flawless STAB coverage. Balanced teams usually deal with Pokemon by resisting their STABs while still taking their additional coverage well, no so much relying on defensive stats but defensive typing. Since Lopunny's STABs can't be resisted, balance has to rely on sheer bulk to beat it, which is something it doesn't really carry that much since sheer bulk often implies passiveness which balance wants to avoid.
Now obviously, in terms of troubling balance, Lopunny isn't even in the same ballpark as Greninja, mainly because it hits everything neutrally instead of super-effectively, and from one side too. In terms of raw bulk and assuming you have reliable recovery, in order to beat it you don't need much more than max invested 90/90 phys def bulk which isn't that bulky, heck you can even go down to max invested 75/75 bulk / only HP invested 100/100 bulk if you resist Fighting which a huge portion of the metagame does atm (this is assuming Jolly Lopunny, once Greninja goes, which, let's fact it, it will, Adamant will be viable and walling MLop is going to be a touch harder). But the fact still stands that even without running any utility options, just a set of STABs Fake Out Filler, it can still cause quite a lot of trouble for balanced teams. Now stall on the other hand, those teams Lopunny cannot really touch without PuP or Encore since they are the kinds of teams that carry Skarmory / Chesnaught / Hippwodon / Cresselia, but the fact that it can even do anything against stall with the appropriate utility move as already really impressive.
So basically, this is a Pokemon which (with its dual STABs alone) causes massive trouble for offense, being able to easily rip through it after some prior damage on bulkier stuff like Keldeo and Garchomp, minus the scarfer (usually Lando-T) who is not hard to switch out of around for the most part, and Talonflame which you should have one or two switchins too, also is really tough for Balance to deal with because it can spam Return with no repercussions in the knowledge that almost anything that wants to switch into it it will have to deal with a super-effective STAB HJK the following turn, and can, depending on what it runs in its last 2 slots, do 2 of the following : a) get chip damage on anything on offense that faces it, just making it easier to run through the team afterwards, b) hit its only switchin on offense, c) take advantage of Protect users, status users, and ease prediction in general, d) put direct pressure on walls and defensive Pokemon, gaining utility against the only playstyle it actually struggles with e) heal up a teammate while generating even more momentum, f) act as a pivot able to get a wallbreaker in safely as the opponent goes to something too passive to do anything about it.
tldr; MLopunny for S rank
Now obviously, in terms of troubling balance, Lopunny isn't even in the same ballpark as Greninja, mainly because it hits everything neutrally instead of super-effectively, and from one side too. In terms of raw bulk and assuming you have reliable recovery, in order to beat it you don't need much more than max invested 90/90 phys def bulk which isn't that bulky, heck you can even go down to max invested 75/75 bulk / only HP invested 100/100 bulk if you resist Fighting which a huge portion of the metagame does atm (this is assuming Jolly Lopunny, once Greninja goes, which, let's fact it, it will, Adamant will be viable and walling MLop is going to be a touch harder). But the fact still stands that even without running any utility options, just a set of STABs Fake Out Filler, it can still cause quite a lot of trouble for balanced teams. Now stall on the other hand, those teams Lopunny cannot really touch without PuP or Encore since they are the kinds of teams that carry Skarmory / Chesnaught / Hippwodon / Cresselia, but the fact that it can even do anything against stall with the appropriate utility move as already really impressive.
So basically, this is a Pokemon which (with its dual STABs alone) causes massive trouble for offense, being able to easily rip through it after some prior damage on bulkier stuff like Keldeo and Garchomp, minus the scarfer (usually Lando-T) who is not hard to switch out of around for the most part, and Talonflame which you should have one or two switchins too, also is really tough for Balance to deal with because it can spam Return with no repercussions in the knowledge that almost anything that wants to switch into it it will have to deal with a super-effective STAB HJK the following turn, and can, depending on what it runs in its last 2 slots, do 2 of the following : a) get chip damage on anything on offense that faces it, just making it easier to run through the team afterwards, b) hit its only switchin on offense, c) take advantage of Protect users, status users, and ease prediction in general, d) put direct pressure on walls and defensive Pokemon, gaining utility against the only playstyle it actually struggles with e) heal up a teammate while generating even more momentum, f) act as a pivot able to get a wallbreaker in safely as the opponent goes to something too passive to do anything about it.
tldr; MLopunny for S rank
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I want to express that Adamant Mega Lopunny, takes away one of the (very) few flaws I saw in Mega Lopunny initially. . . The lack of power. Now, with a certain Pokemon (we shall not name) gone, she has the room to be able to drop Jolly in favor of going Adamant while still outspeeding a LARGE portion of the metagame. I was against mLop moving to S, and still am partial, not entirely because of mLop herself, as much as the problem of S becoming bigger than it should be over time. However, that can be dealt with in due time if needed.
So, for now, I still say A+, but can understand S, as long as everyone else understands what that implies.
So, for now, I still say A+, but can understand S, as long as everyone else understands what that implies.
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Hey, just putting my two cents in on M-Lopunny. It's a solid A rank. Probably even A+ rank. It's fast, it has that vaunted "perfect coverage", and it has two free move slots. You're pretty much assured to get two hits on any switch in not scarfed or one of the few Mega's that out speed. It wrecks all but the best played/made offensive teams, and makes playing balance an interesting experience. (Challenging, yet perfectly doable.) I haven't had any outstanding experiences with the PuP set, but it's standard set of Ice punch and Fake Out/Healing Wish is tough to play around near the end of the game. Lopunny's speed is probably the most dangerous thing about her, allowing her to kill would-be checks who were unfortunate enough to come in without knowing her coverage.
Mega-Lopunny is not S-rank IMO. She has very few resistances, and is without the bulk to take some of the stronger neutral hits flying towards her, especially being vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards and status that may be sent to her side of the field. Contact moves are her only viable way of dealing damage, subjecting her to random rocky helmet, iron barb, rough skin damage. With PuP as her method of boosting, she must forfeit coverage for substitute to prevent status from cutting her sweep short. I cannot see Lopunny in the same league as Megagross,Cancer Landorus-T, and Ninja. (Latios and Thundy need to drop to A+, as both are pretty prepared for when doing basic teambuilding.) I find that while a solid team member who puts in work, unless you are going 4 moves with fire and ice coverage, you're picking your poison to some very common mon's like Garchomp, Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Scizor, or bulky Latias. All in all, a great A rank mon. Doesn't make the cut for S.
Mega-Lopunny is not S-rank IMO. She has very few resistances, and is without the bulk to take some of the stronger neutral hits flying towards her, especially being vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards and status that may be sent to her side of the field. Contact moves are her only viable way of dealing damage, subjecting her to random rocky helmet, iron barb, rough skin damage. With PuP as her method of boosting, she must forfeit coverage for substitute to prevent status from cutting her sweep short. I cannot see Lopunny in the same league as Megagross,
The problem I have with Adamant M-Lop that I was discussing last night that even with Greninja gone, Jolly is still outsped by max invested Jolly/Timid/Naive/otherspeedboostingnature Pokémon of 119 base speed and higher. For reference this includes Weavile, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Manectric, and Sceptile, Aerodactyl and Alakazam before they Mega Evolve.
There's probably other examples but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head. It's also outsped by max invested speed boosting nature Scarfers or +1s of base 63 speed to base 73 speed (jolly mega lop is outsped by base 74 and above). One such example Jolly Mega Lop outspeeds that Adamant Mega Lop doesn't is +1 Mega T-tar. Just remember that even with Greninja gone, the difference between 369 and 405 speed is a lot. I suppose if you want to go for wallbreaking, sure, but Jolly isn't obsolete just yet.
There's probably other examples but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head. It's also outsped by max invested speed boosting nature Scarfers or +1s of base 63 speed to base 73 speed (jolly mega lop is outsped by base 74 and above). One such example Jolly Mega Lop outspeeds that Adamant Mega Lop doesn't is +1 Mega T-tar. Just remember that even with Greninja gone, the difference between 369 and 405 speed is a lot. I suppose if you want to go for wallbreaking, sure, but Jolly isn't obsolete just yet.
They aren't saying that Jolly will become obsolete just that adamant becomes a more viable option as there is less pressure with regard to the speed tiers, especially with the possible rise in balance or defensive teams where the extra power would be appreciated.
I do agree with the people nominating Mega Lopunny for S. I've been using both SubPass and the rarer Power-Up Punch + Encore set (I love the latter set, even though I don't think it's considered as good as the others? but idk though I'm not super active on the forums to pay attention to trends). It's so versatile in its last two moves that often my opponents struggle to react to it before they know which two moves I'm using. (I also love how it beats Mega Sableye when Mega, because that thing is annoying af.) Speaking of, it puts in massive work in every game no matter the team archetype I'm playing against, with the Encore sets annoying stall and set-up sweepers, and Sub sets annoying offence. I've been pairing SubPass with Belly Drum Azu on my reqs team and it's amazing too for giving nice set-ups. Talonflame is a pest but whatever.
Fast, strong, pretty versatile and very reliable mon.
Mega Lopunny is also ridiculously fun to use so let's make that another criteria for S rank :P
Fast, strong, pretty versatile and very reliable mon.
Mega Lopunny is also ridiculously fun to use so let's make that another criteria for S rank :P
If there can be a cuteness ranking thread in the LC forum, I don't see why there can't be a fun-ness ranking thread in the OU one :P (only half joking! Breloom and Tornadus-T for S)
I would have initially said A+ for MLopunny, but the arguments for S are pretty good. But I don't think it'll stay S for long once people start really preparing for it, and it kind of depends on how inflated you want your S tier to be. Borderline case IMO. May as well raise it to S for now and let it drop later.
I would have initially said A+ for MLopunny, but the arguments for S are pretty good. But I don't think it'll stay S for long once people start really preparing for it, and it kind of depends on how inflated you want your S tier to be. Borderline case IMO. May as well raise it to S for now and let it drop later.
I've seen this talk about S-Rank inflation going on for a few pages. I've got a few things to say about it and will be making a few nominations in tie with it, since there are a few things I don't see discussed that would apply to rank changes.
Greninja will be kicked upstairs tomorrow (most likely). This means there's already one less Pokémon in S-Rank, leaving four, which is a pretty alright number. Among these four are two Pokémon that are being voted to move down to A+, those being Thundurus-I and Latios. I do agree with dropping both of them; Thundurus-I may be a powerful Pokémon, but its T-Wave-spamming utility isn't as useful as it was during the Mega Salamence era (though it still is good, mind you) and its frailty is more of a weak point than ever due to the influx of powerful sweepers and wallbreakers in the tier. Latios has been explained by AM before me, but I'll say I agree that the metagame is extremely unkind to it compared to previous states. Both Thundurus-I and Latios aren't that comparable to a powerhouse like Mega Metagross, who sports fantastic bulk and good speed on top of its amazing power, or Landorus-T, who is one of the easiest Pokémon to slap on teams, partners with many Pokémon excellently and provides support with SR and U-turn. I just can't see Latios or Thundurus-I on the same level as these two anymore, so I'd personally say drop Thundurus-I and Latios to A+. They'd be some of the best A+ Rankers, but just not good enough for S.
With those two dropped, only two more S-Rank Pokémon remain...but I'm throwing in my support for Mega Lopunny and Mega Sableye to rise to S. Two entirely different Mega Evolutions that always pull their weight in their own ways. Mega Lopunny is one of the most flexible Pokémon in the entire game thanks to its perfect STAB coverage courtesy of Scrappy; this gives the kicking rabbit the freedom to run two moves that make it a nuisance for each playstyle depending on the combination and thus, a Pokémon that's unpredictable as fuck. Mega Sableye, however, is easily the best supporting Pokémon around thanks to its huge support capacities spread over its regular form and Mega Evolution. Its Mega Evolution can be timed appropriately to turn it from a massive annoyer into an utter bitch to tear down. Thanks to first-turn Prankster, it will almost always have a leg up on the opposition, be it by crippling something with Will-O-Wisp and taking piss damage from physical moves, or getting up a quick Calm Mind to tank a special move better and set up more CMs easily.
Yes, both Mega Lopunny and Mega Sableye have a set of counters/checks. I know that. But tell me, when did that stop Keldeo from becoming S-Rank, even while Azumarill was all over the place?
So to recapitulate:
S --> A+
A+ --> S
Greninja will be kicked upstairs tomorrow (most likely). This means there's already one less Pokémon in S-Rank, leaving four, which is a pretty alright number. Among these four are two Pokémon that are being voted to move down to A+, those being Thundurus-I and Latios. I do agree with dropping both of them; Thundurus-I may be a powerful Pokémon, but its T-Wave-spamming utility isn't as useful as it was during the Mega Salamence era (though it still is good, mind you) and its frailty is more of a weak point than ever due to the influx of powerful sweepers and wallbreakers in the tier. Latios has been explained by AM before me, but I'll say I agree that the metagame is extremely unkind to it compared to previous states. Both Thundurus-I and Latios aren't that comparable to a powerhouse like Mega Metagross, who sports fantastic bulk and good speed on top of its amazing power, or Landorus-T, who is one of the easiest Pokémon to slap on teams, partners with many Pokémon excellently and provides support with SR and U-turn. I just can't see Latios or Thundurus-I on the same level as these two anymore, so I'd personally say drop Thundurus-I and Latios to A+. They'd be some of the best A+ Rankers, but just not good enough for S.
With those two dropped, only two more S-Rank Pokémon remain...but I'm throwing in my support for Mega Lopunny and Mega Sableye to rise to S. Two entirely different Mega Evolutions that always pull their weight in their own ways. Mega Lopunny is one of the most flexible Pokémon in the entire game thanks to its perfect STAB coverage courtesy of Scrappy; this gives the kicking rabbit the freedom to run two moves that make it a nuisance for each playstyle depending on the combination and thus, a Pokémon that's unpredictable as fuck. Mega Sableye, however, is easily the best supporting Pokémon around thanks to its huge support capacities spread over its regular form and Mega Evolution. Its Mega Evolution can be timed appropriately to turn it from a massive annoyer into an utter bitch to tear down. Thanks to first-turn Prankster, it will almost always have a leg up on the opposition, be it by crippling something with Will-O-Wisp and taking piss damage from physical moves, or getting up a quick Calm Mind to tank a special move better and set up more CMs easily.
Yes, both Mega Lopunny and Mega Sableye have a set of counters/checks. I know that. But tell me, when did that stop Keldeo from becoming S-Rank, even while Azumarill was all over the place?
So to recapitulate:
I think Heracross and Hydreigon should move up to C- at least. CB Heracross is extremely hard to deal with for both Offense and Stall because many teams aren't prepared for it and the only check they have is Landorus-T which isn't even that annoying without an item (Knock Off). With a decent speed base of 85 it can outspeed many common Pokemon like Bisharp, Rotom-W, Adamant Excadrill, Heatran, Tyrannitar etc. and OHKO/2HKO them with CC. AV, Lefties + SD or Flame Orb + Guts seems also nice on paper but I'm not really sure about that.
Hydreigon is very underrated and doesn't deserve to be in D, too. Scarfed Hydreigon is very nice as it is able to check Megagross, MLopunny, MSlowbro, Lati@s, Heatran running Earth Power, Scizor/Ferrothorn running Fire Blast, Tyrannitar running Focus Blast etc. Especially for Offense it's a pain to deal with Hydreigon because most Offense teams haven't got a safe switch in for it. Hydreigon has such a huge movepool including U-Turn which keeps the Momentum straight and several Coverage-Moves but it has kinda 4MMS (running U-Turn) as you cannot run Fire Blast + Focus Blast (+ Earth Power) but all in all it's an useful Choice Scarf user which defenitely doesn't deserve to be in D imo.
Also supporting Mega-Lopunny to S and Mega-Pidgeot to B-.
Hydreigon is very underrated and doesn't deserve to be in D, too. Scarfed Hydreigon is very nice as it is able to check Megagross, MLopunny, MSlowbro, Lati@s, Heatran running Earth Power, Scizor/Ferrothorn running Fire Blast, Tyrannitar running Focus Blast etc. Especially for Offense it's a pain to deal with Hydreigon because most Offense teams haven't got a safe switch in for it. Hydreigon has such a huge movepool including U-Turn which keeps the Momentum straight and several Coverage-Moves but it has kinda 4MMS (running U-Turn) as you cannot run Fire Blast + Focus Blast (+ Earth Power) but all in all it's an useful Choice Scarf user which defenitely doesn't deserve to be in D imo.
Also supporting Mega-Lopunny to S and Mega-Pidgeot to B-.
One of the dangers of Adamant if you aren't running the fake out set is the susceptibility of the turn you evolve. It can reduce the number of things you can safely come in and threaten out. Of course, they may not know it. But in general, I can see adamant being very valuable for the revenge killing set especially given it sometimes feels as though it lacks power. Have their been some calcs done on what notable KOs adamant gets over jolly?
Also, I should say that scarfers and some slower Dancers can end up between 369 and 405 after a single turn, which is still pretty important.
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The notable ones include max speed Mega Tyranitar, Magneton, and Gothitelle.
MegaTar won't be able to OHKO MegaLop even with a DD under its belt, unless it decides to run Superpower for some reason. Likewise, Scarf Magneton can't OHKO MegaLop with any of its moves, only doing about 62% max with Thunderbolt. Gothitelle is about the only thing in this speed range that MegaLop fears, but even it is a shaky threat at best.
252 SpA Gothitelle Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Lopunny: 222-264 (81.6 - 97%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Lopunny: 246-290 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Personally, I would be more concerned with being outsped by stuff in the base 120-135 speed range. Dugtrio can trap and revenge kill so long as Lopunny is slightly damaged. Weavile and Mega Manectric are the same boat, but without the trapping thing obviously. Finally, Tornadus-T, regular Alakazam, Mega Pidgeot, and Crobat are able to threaten a OHKO, though admittedly some of these are pretty uncommon in OU.
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Well, there are some less common scarfers like modest heatran(though most are timid now) which also fall in the middle, but that is why scarfers was my second post(more of an afterthought). Thanks for the calculations!
One interesting thing that Adamant does is gets you past Unaware Quagsire with a virtual guarantee to 2HKO with HJK if any chip damage is in play. I think it is guaranteed with fake out. Doesn't quite get past Clefable, though.
252+ Atk Mega-Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after leftovers with no chip damage.(98.4% with).
252+ Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, but can be very dangerous with rocks out(28.9% chance to 2HKO with).
Power-up Punch variants can also guarantee a 2HKO on Hippowdon at +1 with HJK, but I don't believe it is worth risking being outsped by base 91-104 pokemon without the free switch provided by fake out.
Interestingly, Azumarill is basically impossible to 2HKO if he switches in on HJK with no chip damage as Jolly, but is a very likely kill with that same combination as Adamant.
It doesn't make a difference on Skarmory, Slowbro, or Alomomola. As for movement from 2HKO to OHKO, on threats, this is what I've found:
Latios goes from an unlikely kill using Fake-Out and Return to a guaranteed KO with those two. Not sure this makes a huge difference.
I didn't find anything else notable.
So I guess adamant has some merits, especially against stall, for the revenge killing variants, but is likely not worth it for the Sub users. That being said, I think for most of the threats Lopunny cannot handle, your team will have someone who can, so outside of the surprise of using Lopunny for these, I'm not sure it is enough to generally be preferable to Jolly.
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I have just seen that there is a thread regarding Emboar in the subforum, I don't know it's good or anything since I have never used it but I think that it can act like a decent Stall breaker with Choice Band + Reckless. Maybe if there is a thread speaking about it, Emboar is worthy for D rank?
I don't see a real reason to use it over nape, who has many more moves to choose from, and just better mixed potential overall :/
It's actually fast too, sitting at 108 base, and emboar doesn't really have the bulk or resilience to compensate for shitty speed, its pretty much killing itself with its strongest moves.
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Reckless isn't released yet, so we can't rank it regardless for the same reason we couldn't rank the ORAS megas or why we can't rank Pokémon in relation to the Greninja ban yet.
Didn't know that, ok then
Also, wanted to make a nomination about dropping Mega Manectric to A-: Even if it's still a great mon, I think that Mega Manectric got a bit worse in ORAS. The introduction of new megas for sure gave competition for it, but mainly the introduction of Mega Lopunny gave it a lot of competition. Metagross, Diancie and Sableye are cool and stuff, but they are completely different from Manectric so that doesn't matter too much imo. On the other way, Mega Lopunny is similiar to Manectric as they are both fast and run attackers. Mega Lopunny actually hits hard though, as unresisted STABs and ton of support moves as well, all things that makes her better than Mega Manectric, which has Intimidate, a cool trait that isn't enough to eliminate the gap beetween it and Lopunny too, which is, as I already said before, much better than Manectric. Another thing that made Manectric worse is the less popularity that things like Talonflame and Pinsir have, mainly the latter isn't used much and Manectric which was a good check for bird spam have now less consideration as mega. Finally, we have to remember that now that we can use Mega Sableye, Stall became more and more common, a playstyle against that Mega Manectric can't really do much, and that's the reason people choose to use megas like Lopunny and Metagross which a more dangerous for Stall teams. People can just run Raikou as well, which is really similiar to Manectric except it struggles against Ferrothorn and Excadrill but being able to run a mega. Because on how the metagame adapted in a more Stall oriented and bulkier one (playstyles that give Manectric problems, as it performs really well against offense but really bad against Stall / bulkier teams), and because on how the new megas are clearly better than it overall and so because how outclassed it's by it (there aren't many reasons to run it over Lopunny imo), I think that Manectric needs to drop to A- rank.
Also, wanted to make a nomination about dropping Mega Manectric to A-: Even if it's still a great mon, I think that Mega Manectric got a bit worse in ORAS. The introduction of new megas for sure gave competition for it, but mainly the introduction of Mega Lopunny gave it a lot of competition. Metagross, Diancie and Sableye are cool and stuff, but they are completely different from Manectric so that doesn't matter too much imo. On the other way, Mega Lopunny is similiar to Manectric as they are both fast and run attackers. Mega Lopunny actually hits hard though, as unresisted STABs and ton of support moves as well, all things that makes her better than Mega Manectric, which has Intimidate, a cool trait that isn't enough to eliminate the gap beetween it and Lopunny too, which is, as I already said before, much better than Manectric. Another thing that made Manectric worse is the less popularity that things like Talonflame and Pinsir have, mainly the latter isn't used much and Manectric which was a good check for bird spam have now less consideration as mega. Finally, we have to remember that now that we can use Mega Sableye, Stall became more and more common, a playstyle against that Mega Manectric can't really do much, and that's the reason people choose to use megas like Lopunny and Metagross which a more dangerous for Stall teams. People can just run Raikou as well, which is really similiar to Manectric except it struggles against Ferrothorn and Excadrill but being able to run a mega. Because on how the metagame adapted in a more Stall oriented and bulkier one (playstyles that give Manectric problems, as it performs really well against offense but really bad against Stall / bulkier teams), and because on how the new megas are clearly better than it overall and so because how outclassed it's by it (there aren't many reasons to run it over Lopunny imo), I think that Manectric needs to drop to A- rank.
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I disagree, a big reason mega manectric should stay A is because its one of the best offensive checks to mega metagross offense can even muster. Mega Meta is 100% broken so having a half-respectable answer to it without being pigeonholed into lando-t is kinda nice.
Comparisons with raikou are kinda invalid because raikou gets steamrolled by SD talon, where as megaman is a counter (This is very, very important, considering how prevalent and dangerous SD talon is to offense). On a slightly minor note, mega man doesn't have to worry about hyper beam from mega pidgeot either, unlike raikou if its not AV.
Then there's the fire coverage which nails ferro and exca, two solid counters to raikou that can't handle mega man safely. They're similar, but there are some VERY important differences (SD talon is the reason why i never use raikou :[ )
The competition argument is pretty invalid because if it was, we'd move all the other XY megas down an entire rank. That's kinda dumb, and so is that argument from the start.
Comparison to Mega lop is weird b/c they're just two entirely different mons; for example mega lop is nice against offense and all but it hardly even checks bisharp, where as mega man is beating an entire playstyle called birdspam nearly on its own.
The fact that mega man struggles against stall is invalid because that's not why you use it; you use it to crush offense and gain momentum and it (still) does just that. Am I gonna try and lower gardevoir's rank because of her shitty performance against offense? No, its strength is in dismantling stall and balance, and its A+ because of that and its performance vs offense has nothing to do with it (which isn't bad in the first place :S)
Finally, why do people think Talonflame has fallen in usage or something? It's an amazing answer to mega sceptile, mega lopunny, mega beedrill, mega alakazam, mega altaria, mega gallade, (all of which really annoy offense (where talon fits in very nicely :O)) and remains a fantastic answer to many, many more pokemon. If anything, talonflame has grown WAY more popular (or will(probably)) due to the amount of things it checks that offense struggles with, not the other way around.
So yeah, keep mega man A :]
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Actually, mega Manectric is a poor check to metagross, I can't calc now but Eq destroys it even after Intimidate and hammer arm does a ton too, so if you are using manectric as your answer to metagross you are probably doing it wrong.
The argument about SD Talon is nice as manectric beats SD Talon while Raikou loses to it, but you are speaking like Manectric is the only offensive check to it. Landorus-T, Heatran and Thundurus are all decent checks for SD Talon too.
Also I think that the competition argument is valid partly, you are right when you say that Manectric struggles against Stall and that comes the competition with other megas. Stall is a playstyle that is rising a lot, both on ladder and tours games and Manectric can't do much to break it, therefore people tend to use their mega slot for a mon that can give stall problem like Lopunny and Metagross and they are using something else to check birdspam. I think that also usage shows that a bit, as Manectric isn't common as it was before. People think that usages don't mean much, but I think that if a mon is viable or not, it will be used a lot in games as well (Sableye is used in about the 12%, that for a mega means that's really really good for example). I guess that if a mon is a good, it will be used a ton in ladder and tour games as well, and nowadays few people use Manectric as their mega. I am saying that is bad or anything, but with the tier turning a more stallish and bulkier one, Manectric has less chances to shine at its best, and thats why people prefer other megas over it. In XY it was a really great mon because the tier was definitely more offensive, but now with the introduction of things like Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro and Mega Altaria, people tend to prefer Stall / bulky offense buildings, playstyles against Manectric isn't good as it's against HO teams. I guess that for how the tier is now, Manectric should drop. It's still good I guess, but not as it was in XY, and usages clearly shows this. I think that if a mon is good, people use it because they are not stupid (see Metagross and Sableye), if they don't use it, well, I think that's because it isn't super good in the tier, or if it was, there are other mons that are more viable than it.
Also, for the Raikou argument, it's true that it can't beat SD Talon but it checks things like Pinsir, Pidgeot and other birds well. It also beat the almighty Hyper Beam Pidgeot because AV is the most common set. It struggles against Ferrothorn and Steel-type mons which is true, but with Raikou you can actually run a mega that is good against them so I think you are fine.
Finally, I want to answer to the Gardevoir argument. Gardevoir is A+ because it's extremely good against Stall teams / bulkier teams in general, which hey are the most common buildings atm. It also beats Sableye which is an huge niche because it's rly common. I guess that it's one of the few mon being able to be dangerous for Sableye and Stall teams AT THE SAME TIME.
I don't want to sound rude, though. I mean, if Manectric drops to A- or if it stays in A doesn't change my life so yeh just wanted to share my thoughs on the topic.
The argument about SD Talon is nice as manectric beats SD Talon while Raikou loses to it, but you are speaking like Manectric is the only offensive check to it. Landorus-T, Heatran and Thundurus are all decent checks for SD Talon too.
Also I think that the competition argument is valid partly, you are right when you say that Manectric struggles against Stall and that comes the competition with other megas. Stall is a playstyle that is rising a lot, both on ladder and tours games and Manectric can't do much to break it, therefore people tend to use their mega slot for a mon that can give stall problem like Lopunny and Metagross and they are using something else to check birdspam. I think that also usage shows that a bit, as Manectric isn't common as it was before. People think that usages don't mean much, but I think that if a mon is viable or not, it will be used a lot in games as well (Sableye is used in about the 12%, that for a mega means that's really really good for example). I guess that if a mon is a good, it will be used a ton in ladder and tour games as well, and nowadays few people use Manectric as their mega. I am saying that is bad or anything, but with the tier turning a more stallish and bulkier one, Manectric has less chances to shine at its best, and thats why people prefer other megas over it. In XY it was a really great mon because the tier was definitely more offensive, but now with the introduction of things like Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro and Mega Altaria, people tend to prefer Stall / bulky offense buildings, playstyles against Manectric isn't good as it's against HO teams. I guess that for how the tier is now, Manectric should drop. It's still good I guess, but not as it was in XY, and usages clearly shows this. I think that if a mon is good, people use it because they are not stupid (see Metagross and Sableye), if they don't use it, well, I think that's because it isn't super good in the tier, or if it was, there are other mons that are more viable than it.
Also, for the Raikou argument, it's true that it can't beat SD Talon but it checks things like Pinsir, Pidgeot and other birds well. It also beat the almighty Hyper Beam Pidgeot because AV is the most common set. It struggles against Ferrothorn and Steel-type mons which is true, but with Raikou you can actually run a mega that is good against them so I think you are fine.
Finally, I want to answer to the Gardevoir argument. Gardevoir is A+ because it's extremely good against Stall teams / bulkier teams in general, which hey are the most common buildings atm. It also beats Sableye which is an huge niche because it's rly common. I guess that it's one of the few mon being able to be dangerous for Sableye and Stall teams AT THE SAME TIME.
I don't want to sound rude, though. I mean, if Manectric drops to A- or if it stays in A doesn't change my life so yeh just wanted to share my thoughs on the topic.
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I have found out recently that almost nobody expects a choice set from latios lately. people keeps sending their walls like candy, just to eat trick and get crippled. i know almost everyone runs the defogger set, but the old choice specs still has a good punch (not even mega metagross, who is widely considered a lethal check can take two draco meteors in the face with a tiny bit of prior damage, and surf decimates him in two hits unless we face a gimmicky fully specially defensive set (hp fire also does, but now losing one speed IV hurts a lot), so he will have to either gamble the speed tie or get out of the way unless he's sure you clicked Psyshock or Trick).
i find it pretty strange, considering there are very few safe switchings to the choice set, even with fairies around thanks to the STAB psyshock who strikes them on their relatively weak physical defense. also, he can live a uturn (but not a knock off) from adamant landorus if you mispredict his earthquake
i find it pretty strange, considering there are very few safe switchings to the choice set, even with fairies around thanks to the STAB psyshock who strikes them on their relatively weak physical defense. also, he can live a uturn (but not a knock off) from adamant landorus if you mispredict his earthquake
Infernape
I'm going to talk about Infernape a bit here, so bear with me for a bit.
Infernape, an interesting a Pokemon, a favorite of many, but doesn't do too good in OU. However, after using him a couple of times in different occasions. Infernape is actually better than expected. Part of the reason is because the increasing popularity of Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. And the slight decline of Lati@s.
Now many argue that Infernape has only a decent speed tier. That is not true, it has the same speed as KELDEO which is used a LOT in both Balanced, Bulky Offensive, and Hyper Offense.
Fire / Fighting combo is actually fantastic in offensive combo. First, the OU tier is really low on offensive Fire Types (Char Y is almost non-existent now, although a good wallbreaker) so Infernape is barely outshined/outclassed. Infernape has a 104 / 104 offense with a 108 Spe, which may seem mediocre, but with the combination of high power moves, like Fire Blast, Flare Blitz, and Close Combat, Infernape hits hard. And the number of Pokemon who want to take a LO hit from this guy are few.
Here's probably the best Infernape set in OU right now:
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist / Blaze
Evs: 200 Atk / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Flare Blitz
- Mach Punch / Fire Blast / Flamethrower
Here's what it can do:
Against Hyper Offensive:
Weakened HO basically automatically loses to Infernape if these is no Lati@s.
Against Balanced:
With enough team support (Rotom-W is a good teammate, for example, bringing slow Volt Switch to bring in Infernape), Infernape can definitely do a ton against Balanced.
And now, my favorite, against Stall:
Infernape is an amazing stallbreaker, not enough? It can also learn Taunt and Slack Off to heal LO recoil. It only struggles against Mandibuzz and Tenta, the latter which is easily worn down and the former breaks under hazard support and some roll luck.
Those calcs were great, now of course there are couple of Pokemon that can solidly check Infernape. Azumarill only takes 40% from GK, so if hazards aren't up it can come and check it twice. Lati@s can come in and fire off Psyshock/Draco, if they have Roost they counter for days. Tentacruel is a solid check, but lacking recovery and taking a solid 27.4 - 32.4% from CC will eventually, especially with hazards, wear it down. Gengar outspeeds, is immune to Mach Punch, and can most of the time OHKO. Infernape is also worn down very fast through Life Orb, and Flare Blitz. His dismal HP and even more dismal defenses are also a great hinder to him, but overall he does a fantastic job against Stall, picks up weakened HO, and can do a ton against Balanced with some team support.
Now I'm not saying Infernape should be A rank. But it definitely deserved to be higher than a C.
I think B- or at most B is pretty fair for Infernape. (I honestly think Infernape is a bit more or at least as viable as Victini in the current meta)
I'm going to talk about Infernape a bit here, so bear with me for a bit.
Infernape, an interesting a Pokemon, a favorite of many, but doesn't do too good in OU. However, after using him a couple of times in different occasions. Infernape is actually better than expected. Part of the reason is because the increasing popularity of Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. And the slight decline of Lati@s.
Now many argue that Infernape has only a decent speed tier. That is not true, it has the same speed as KELDEO which is used a LOT in both Balanced, Bulky Offensive, and Hyper Offense.
Fire / Fighting combo is actually fantastic in offensive combo. First, the OU tier is really low on offensive Fire Types (Char Y is almost non-existent now, although a good wallbreaker) so Infernape is barely outshined/outclassed. Infernape has a 104 / 104 offense with a 108 Spe, which may seem mediocre, but with the combination of high power moves, like Fire Blast, Flare Blitz, and Close Combat, Infernape hits hard. And the number of Pokemon who want to take a LO hit from this guy are few.
Here's probably the best Infernape set in OU right now:
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist / Blaze
Evs: 200 Atk / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Flare Blitz
- Mach Punch / Fire Blast / Flamethrower
Here's what it can do:
Against Hyper Offensive:
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lopunny: 174-211 (64.2 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 343-406 (126.1 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 234-276 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Just in case this is not banned)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 252-299 (69.8 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (In Sand)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sharpedo: 226-268 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 203-239 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf on the switch)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 286-339 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 343-406 (126.1 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 234-276 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Just in case this is not banned)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 252-299 (69.8 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (In Sand)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sharpedo: 226-268 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 203-239 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf on the switch)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 286-339 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Weakened HO basically automatically loses to Infernape if these is no Lati@s.
Against Balanced:
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 515-608 (146.3 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 484-577 (141.1 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 567-671 (140.6 - 166.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 398-471 (103.3 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 416-494 (106.3 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 416-494 (102.9 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 369-437 (113.8 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*If you are blaze and Clefable Moonblasted / or you activated Blaze through Flare Blitz, you become able to EASILY 2HKO.
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 484-577 (141.1 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 567-671 (140.6 - 166.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 398-471 (103.3 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 416-494 (106.3 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 416-494 (102.9 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 369-437 (113.8 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*If you are blaze and Clefable Moonblasted / or you activated Blaze through Flare Blitz, you become able to EASILY 2HKO.
With enough team support (Rotom-W is a good teammate, for example, bringing slow Volt Switch to bring in Infernape), Infernape can definitely do a ton against Balanced.
And now, my favorite, against Stall:
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 447-530 (133.8 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 554-655 (86.2 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 463-546 (117.5 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Guaranteed 2HKO if Flare Blitz)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 161-191 (38 - 45.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 554-655 (86.2 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 463-546 (117.5 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Guaranteed 2HKO if Flare Blitz)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 161-191 (38 - 45.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Infernape is an amazing stallbreaker, not enough? It can also learn Taunt and Slack Off to heal LO recoil. It only struggles against Mandibuzz and Tenta, the latter which is easily worn down and the former breaks under hazard support and some roll luck.
Those calcs were great, now of course there are couple of Pokemon that can solidly check Infernape. Azumarill only takes 40% from GK, so if hazards aren't up it can come and check it twice. Lati@s can come in and fire off Psyshock/Draco, if they have Roost they counter for days. Tentacruel is a solid check, but lacking recovery and taking a solid 27.4 - 32.4% from CC will eventually, especially with hazards, wear it down. Gengar outspeeds, is immune to Mach Punch, and can most of the time OHKO. Infernape is also worn down very fast through Life Orb, and Flare Blitz. His dismal HP and even more dismal defenses are also a great hinder to him, but overall he does a fantastic job against Stall, picks up weakened HO, and can do a ton against Balanced with some team support.
Now I'm not saying Infernape should be A rank. But it definitely deserved to be higher than a C.
I think B- or at most B is pretty fair for Infernape. (I honestly think Infernape is a bit more or at least as viable as Victini in the current meta)
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Infernape
I'm going to talk about Infernape a bit here, so bear with me for a bit.
Infernape, an interesting a Pokemon, a favorite of many, but doesn't do too good in OU. However, after using him a couple of times in different occasions. Infernape is actually better than expected. Part of the reason is because the increasing popularity of Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. And the slight decline of Lati@s.
Now many argue that Infernape has only a decent speed tier. That is not true, it has the same speed as KELDEO which is used a LOT in both Balanced, Bulky Offensive, and Hyper Offense.
Fire / Fighting combo is actually fantastic in offensive combo. First, the OU tier is really low on offensive Fire Types (Char Y is almost non-existent now, although a good wallbreaker) so Infernape is barely outshined/outclassed. Infernape has a 104 / 104 offense with a 108 Spe, which may seem mediocre, but with the combination of high power moves, like Fire Blast, Flare Blitz, and Close Combat, Infernape hits hard. And the number of Pokemon who want to take a LO hit from this guy are few.
Here's probably the best Infernape set in OU right now:
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist / Blaze
Evs: 200 Atk / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Flare Blitz
- Mach Punch / Fire Blast / Flamethrower
Here's what it can do:
Against Hyper Offensive:
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lopunny: 174-211 (64.2 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 343-406 (126.1 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 234-276 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Just in case this is not banned)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 252-299 (69.8 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (In Sand)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sharpedo: 226-268 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 203-239 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf on the switch)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 286-339 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Weakened HO basically automatically loses to Infernape if these is no Lati@s.
Against Balanced:
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 515-608 (146.3 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 484-577 (141.1 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 567-671 (140.6 - 166.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 398-471 (103.3 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 416-494 (106.3 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 416-494 (102.9 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 369-437 (113.8 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*If you are blaze and Clefable Moonblasted / or you activated Blaze through Flare Blitz, you become able to EASILY 2HKO.
With enough team support (Rotom-W is a good teammate, for example, bringing slow Volt Switch to bring in Infernape), Infernape can definitely do a ton against Infernape.
And now, my favorite, against Stall:
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 447-530 (133.8 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 554-655 (86.2 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 463-546 (117.5 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Guaranteed 2HKO if Flare Blitz)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 161-191 (38 - 45.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Infernape is an amazing stallbreaker, not enough? It can also learn Taunt and Slack Off to heal LO recoil. It only struggles against Mandibuzz and Tenta, the latter which is easily worn down and the former breaks under hazard support and some roll luck.
Those calcs were great, now of course there are couple of Pokemon that can solidly check Infernape. Azumarill only takes 40% from GK, so if hazards aren't up it can come and check it twice. Lati@s can come in and fire off Psyshock/Draco, if they have Roost they counter for days. Tentacruel is a solid check, but lacking recovery and taking a solid 27.4 - 32.4% from CC will eventually, especially with hazards, wear it down. Gengar outspeeds, is immune to Mach Punch, and can most of the time OHKO. Infernape is also worn down very fast through Life Orb, and Flare Blitz. His dismal HP and even more dismal defenses are also a great hinder to him, but overall he does a fantastic job against Stall, picks up weakened HO, and can do a ton against Balanced with some team support.
Now I'm not saying Infernape should be A rank. But it definitely deserved to be higher than a C.
I think B- or at most B is pretty fair for Infernape. (I honestly think Infernape is a bit more or at least as viable as Victini in the current meta)
I have no experience with Infernape, but you make absolutely no mention of Mega Altaria, who completely hardwalls your set. While more offensive variants risk the 2HKO from Hidden Power Ice after Stealth Rock, bulkier variants hardwall it. While I cannot say for myself on Infernape's viability due to having never used it, I am skeptical about it rising, because your nomination has made absolutely no mention of the most critical counter Infernape has acquired from ORAS.
My issue with this nom is not the nom itself, but that you sort of just cherry picked these calcs to prove a point, not necessarily on the stall aspects considering those are your average stall mons, but on the Balanced and Offensive builds you just went ahead and chose all the stuff Infernape beats already from a neutral standpoint yet fail to address the different variants involved and the scenarios that would take place. B- just seems way too high for something that is spending its time wearing itself down and has to rely on circumstances to be effective.Infernape
I'm going to talk about Infernape a bit here, so bear with me for a bit.
Infernape, an interesting a Pokemon, a favorite of many, but doesn't do too good in OU. However, after using him a couple of times in different occasions. Infernape is actually better than expected. Part of the reason is because the increasing popularity of Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. And the slight decline of Lati@s.
Now many argue that Infernape has only a decent speed tier. That is not true, it has the same speed as KELDEO which is used a LOT in both Balanced, Bulky Offensive, and Hyper Offense.
Fire / Fighting combo is actually fantastic in offensive combo. First, the OU tier is really low on offensive Fire Types (Char Y is almost non-existent now, although a good wallbreaker) so Infernape is barely outshined/outclassed. Infernape has a 104 / 104 offense with a 108 Spe, which may seem mediocre, but with the combination of high power moves, like Fire Blast, Flare Blitz, and Close Combat, Infernape hits hard. And the number of Pokemon who want to take a LO hit from this guy are few.
Here's probably the best Infernape set in OU right now:
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist / Blaze
Evs: 200 Atk / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Flare Blitz
- Mach Punch / Fire Blast / Flamethrower
Here's what it can do:
Against Hyper Offensive:
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lopunny: 174-211 (64.2 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 343-406 (126.1 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 234-276 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Just in case this is not banned)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 252-299 (69.8 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (In Sand)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sharpedo: 226-268 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 203-239 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf on the switch)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 286-339 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Weakened HO basically automatically loses to Infernape if these is no Lati@s.
Against Balanced:
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 515-608 (146.3 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 484-577 (141.1 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 567-671 (140.6 - 166.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 398-471 (103.3 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 416-494 (106.3 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 416-494 (102.9 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 369-437 (113.8 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*If you are blaze and Clefable Moonblasted / or you activated Blaze through Flare Blitz, you become able to EASILY 2HKO.
With enough team support (Rotom-W is a good teammate, for example, bringing slow Volt Switch to bring in Infernape), Infernape can definitely do a ton against Infernape.
And now, my favorite, against Stall:
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 447-530 (133.8 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 554-655 (86.2 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 463-546 (117.5 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Guaranteed 2HKO if Flare Blitz)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 161-191 (38 - 45.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Infernape is an amazing stallbreaker, not enough? It can also learn Taunt and Slack Off to heal LO recoil. It only struggles against Mandibuzz and Tenta, the latter which is easily worn down and the former breaks under hazard support and some roll luck.
Those calcs were great, now of course there are couple of Pokemon that can solidly check Infernape. Azumarill only takes 40% from GK, so if hazards aren't up it can come and check it twice. Lati@s can come in and fire off Psyshock/Draco, if they have Roost they counter for days. Tentacruel is a solid check, but lacking recovery and taking a solid 27.4 - 32.4% from CC will eventually, especially with hazards, wear it down. Gengar outspeeds, is immune to Mach Punch, and can most of the time OHKO. Infernape is also worn down very fast through Life Orb, and Flare Blitz. His dismal HP and even more dismal defenses are also a great hinder to him, but overall he does a fantastic job against Stall, picks up weakened HO, and can do a ton against Balanced with some team support.
Now I'm not saying Infernape should be A rank. But it definitely deserved to be higher than a C.
I think B- or at most B is pretty fair for Infernape. (I honestly think Infernape is a bit more or at least as viable as Victini in the current meta)
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