Your team looks fine Pokemon wise so it may be a skill issue. If you play more, you'll eventually understand the meta, and get better. It may sound confusing, but just play more
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Ban mega sabeleye and mega slowbro please... they are aids to my steel team and i cant get around them. It makes me create a new meta of using choice band ferrothorn just to counter those too (even though cb ferro is op af). But to continue on the subject, BAN THE UBERS!....P.S. can u ban mew too. Thanks!
Mega Slowbro has already been banned. Please make sure you are up to date on the recent events before you post. Also, banning a pokemon simply because it makes your team a little more difficult to use is not a valid reason. The metagame has to evolve, so something that forces you to run a different, but still viable set is not a good reason to ban. And one last point, if you want Mew to be banned, that's fine. I respect that opinion, but you have to provide reasons. No one is going to take you seriously if you simply ask for a pokemon to be banned without saying why.
C'mon man, that was obvious bait =P
Ah, yes. A somewhat generic Steel team. Most people have probably faced a team much like that if they are of higher ladder. So what I suggest you do is try preparing yourself for the counters that people throw at you--C-Team the C-Teamers. For example, people will run more coverage just for Steel type, since Steel is such a great type. Adapt to higher ladder, and teambuild to counter Steel counters. Try getting to the top of the ladder. As my taekwondo master says, "The journey begins at black belt." I guess you could apply this to ladder. The journey begins at 1400s.
Other than that, try more types. I mean, Steel is fun and all, but you should branch out to using other types. Be creative. Try new sets. And a strategy that no one has thought of before would be quite good. We'd love to hear about it. Just make sure that it isn't a gimmick.
You could also contribute to forums. Write lengthy paragraphs and such. It's great fun, but only if you're of the debating type. We're always open to opinions, or at least, I am. Not sure about everyone else.
Mega-Sableye
Intro (you can skip this if you want)
It has been brought to my attention by Zoda Pop, aka ArVaDa-, of the existence of this thread, and I would like to open my argument by thanking her. Reading all the opinions on here has helped enlighten me as to what other monotype players think of this ban. I, however, am going to have to disagree with the majority (a very scary thought, to be honest). As a ghost user for the past gen and a half, I am supportive of the type-only ban for mega Sableye. I have used ghost on the ladder before ORAS, in fact my old alt had nearly 750 battles on it when the server restarted, and it was as a whole very underwhelming. Most people recognize that ghost loses to dark, yes, but it also used to lose to fairy, water, flying, fire, and sometimes more. It really depended on your team, but often I found I had to *choose* what I lost to- ex: replacing Energy Ball on Chandelure for Hidden Power Ice helps me with flying and ghost's weakness to Landorus, but then I lose against a solid water mono. Mega Sableye has helped strengthen ghost and added to its potential as a type. If you don't trust my ghost "skillz", I have had Argus (highest ghost user on the ladder currently) look over this post and add stuff too, so hopefully you believe in the both of us together. Anyways, here goes.
Argument
(Quick disclaimer: For the sake of this argument, we're going to assume that every team being hypothetically faced is *at least* decently balanced e.g. any team you would see on the ladder over 1350 or so.)
For the sake of simplifying my thoughts in this kind of jumbled argument, we're going to establish a thing most Mega Sableye ghost users face, dubbed The Choice. Dark users do not face The Choice because of access to other hazard clearers and heal bellers like Umbreon, as Acast mentioned before. The Choice is as follows: do I mega and lose priority Will-o-Wisp and Recover, or do I stay normal Sableye and risk getting Toxic'ed or letting hazards set up? This choice was known to exist even before Mega Sableye was released; however, it has become more and more prominent as I play against people. (Quick disclaimer: These people are not stupid with their teams.)
The Choice is what allows a player to defeat Mega Sableye. The situation we're really interested in here is the one where the Sableye mega-evolves. So say the Sableye gets off a prankster CM before the opponent switches to their Toxic/Hazard-er, and then Mega-Evolves the next turn to block the status and uses CM or attacks (depending on the pokemon, it may also Will-o-wisp). Well, now that it Megas, what happens to its speed, the unfamiliar player may ask? Well, I say with experience, it turns to absolute shit. So, the player asks again, what about those physical attackers still sitting in the back? Well, I say with experience, maybe if the opponent is stupid enough they'll let me CM a few more times before switching so that I can OHKO those physical attackers, because I sure as heck am not going to be able to Will-o-Wisp them before they attack me now. Let's say the opponent switches to the physical attacker straight after they send in their toxic-er, expecting Sableye to mega or switch. This is a rather common play I see on the ladder when people are faced with Mega Sableye. From our previous boosts, assuming a second CM, the Sableye is at +2 Sp. Atk/Def with the attacker in. This attacker can also be a special attacker with strong STAB or a fairy move, I guess. If the physical attacker that switches in has Substitute, it gives Sableye a really rough time. If it's a special attacker that switches in at +2, well let me validate others' arguments in saying:
So, obviously, if this attacker doesn't have a STAB fairy move or X-TREME RAW POWER® then that is not a very smart play. Let's say this attacker is physical- my main argument.
After using Mega Sab on a couple different alts against different teams on the ladder and in tours, I believe that the biggest threat to a Mega Sableye team is a boosting physical attacker, such as anything that has access to Swords Dance or Dragon Dance. As said so eloquently by my friend Kaiser, this is a problem for most ghost teams because:
♥Kammi: can you name a type that doesnt have access to a boosting physical attacker without at least a neutral move on sableye?
Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: ghost LOL // Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: wait no // Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: all types have a boosting attacker wtf
And most teams already run that physical attacker. Anything with guts also hurts majorly. The physical attacker switches in on Sableye-Mega, almost always outspeeds, and boosts first turn. The Sableye uses Will-o-Wisp. If the attacker used SD, this is a minor setback, they're just neutral now- one or two more boosts and that'll do it. If the attacker has Lum, it's gg for the Sableye. Let's take a look at some boosted physical attackers:
Well. That hurts quite a bit now, doesn't it? I could name more, too- Breloom, Diggersby, Absol, etc. Anything using Belly Drum also creams Mega Sableye, as well as physical attackers who are Fire type, as they cannot be Will-o-Wisped, much like substitute attackers.
In addition to attacking mons that can defeat Mega Sab, there's the special walls that can simply stall it out. Anything that Dark Pulse, the most common move on Sableye, isn't very effective on, or just good special walls in general, can wall Mega Sableye until it's worn down or out of PP.
Haze and Clear Smog also wear down Sableye, as they eliminate the CM's that it has boosted up and allows a strong special attacker to switch in when Sableye is only +1. Destiny bond, red card, or the like also eliminate the threat of Mega Sableye, although they are rather gimmicky. Then there are the pokemon that just straight-up wall Sableye to pieces, like Mega Zard X and Umbreon with heal bell. Other CM boosters also give Mega Sableye a hard time as they can resist damage from Sableye while stalling out its PP, as Mega Sableyes almost always only run one attacking move.
Why Ban on Dark?
Dark has access to other hazard controllers that ghost does not have, more defensive mons, and heal bell in the form of Umbreon. In my personal opinion, regular Sableye would do the job just fine on Dark, as they do not need the magic bounce as much as ghost does. I don't actually care that much about it being banned on Dark, either- it just seems that these are the reasons why Ghost would keep it and Dark would not. Also, as Acast stated earlier:
Conclusion
Well, as we have seen illustrated here, there are a number of fairly common ways to work around Mega Sableye. Boosting physical attackers, any physical attacker with fire typing, physical attackers with substitute or lum berry, physical attackers with guts, heal bellers for stalling, special walls for stalling, haze and clear smog for eliminating the CM boosts, other CM attackers, and last but DEFINITELY not least, critical hits (how could we forget!!!). I would like to add my personal thought that Mega Sableye rounds out ghost on the whole, providing hazard control, a pokemon that cannot be statused to make up for lack of a healer, defensively strong stats and good typing to make up for the complete WRECKAGE that is Knock Off, and an alternative to a physical wall besides Gourgeist, Cofagrigus, and Dusclops, which are all rather subpar. It makes ghost a more viable type to run and balances out some of the weaknesses that it had previously. It is definitely not unbeatable, and I believe the metagame will adjust to it given time.
You Wrote Too Damn Much; Give Me a Short Version
Mega Sableye loses to physical attackers that can boost or are immune to Will-o-Wisp. Mega Sableye can be forced to switch out or pp stalled out with Chansey or other strong special walls or CM boosters. If an attacker sets up before Mega Sableye is in, then it is easily killed. It's not unbeatable because of this along with lack of other hazard control and heal bell support. I'm in favor of no ban on ghost.
Intro (you can skip this if you want)
It has been brought to my attention by Zoda Pop, aka ArVaDa-, of the existence of this thread, and I would like to open my argument by thanking her. Reading all the opinions on here has helped enlighten me as to what other monotype players think of this ban. I, however, am going to have to disagree with the majority (a very scary thought, to be honest). As a ghost user for the past gen and a half, I am supportive of the type-only ban for mega Sableye. I have used ghost on the ladder before ORAS, in fact my old alt had nearly 750 battles on it when the server restarted, and it was as a whole very underwhelming. Most people recognize that ghost loses to dark, yes, but it also used to lose to fairy, water, flying, fire, and sometimes more. It really depended on your team, but often I found I had to *choose* what I lost to- ex: replacing Energy Ball on Chandelure for Hidden Power Ice helps me with flying and ghost's weakness to Landorus, but then I lose against a solid water mono. Mega Sableye has helped strengthen ghost and added to its potential as a type. If you don't trust my ghost "skillz", I have had Argus (highest ghost user on the ladder currently) look over this post and add stuff too, so hopefully you believe in the both of us together. Anyways, here goes.
Argument
(Quick disclaimer: For the sake of this argument, we're going to assume that every team being hypothetically faced is *at least* decently balanced e.g. any team you would see on the ladder over 1350 or so.)
For the sake of simplifying my thoughts in this kind of jumbled argument, we're going to establish a thing most Mega Sableye ghost users face, dubbed The Choice. Dark users do not face The Choice because of access to other hazard clearers and heal bellers like Umbreon, as Acast mentioned before. The Choice is as follows: do I mega and lose priority Will-o-Wisp and Recover, or do I stay normal Sableye and risk getting Toxic'ed or letting hazards set up? This choice was known to exist even before Mega Sableye was released; however, it has become more and more prominent as I play against people. (Quick disclaimer: These people are not stupid with their teams.)
The Choice is what allows a player to defeat Mega Sableye. The situation we're really interested in here is the one where the Sableye mega-evolves. So say the Sableye gets off a prankster CM before the opponent switches to their Toxic/Hazard-er, and then Mega-Evolves the next turn to block the status and uses CM or attacks (depending on the pokemon, it may also Will-o-wisp). Well, now that it Megas, what happens to its speed, the unfamiliar player may ask? Well, I say with experience, it turns to absolute shit. So, the player asks again, what about those physical attackers still sitting in the back? Well, I say with experience, maybe if the opponent is stupid enough they'll let me CM a few more times before switching so that I can OHKO those physical attackers, because I sure as heck am not going to be able to Will-o-Wisp them before they attack me now. Let's say the opponent switches to the physical attacker straight after they send in their toxic-er, expecting Sableye to mega or switch. This is a rather common play I see on the ladder when people are faced with Mega Sableye. From our previous boosts, assuming a second CM, the Sableye is at +2 Sp. Atk/Def with the attacker in. This attacker can also be a special attacker with strong STAB or a fairy move, I guess. If the physical attacker that switches in has Substitute, it gives Sableye a really rough time. If it's a special attacker that switches in at +2, well let me validate others' arguments in saying:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Dazzling Gleam vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Dazzling Gleam vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
After using Mega Sab on a couple different alts against different teams on the ladder and in tours, I believe that the biggest threat to a Mega Sableye team is a boosting physical attacker, such as anything that has access to Swords Dance or Dragon Dance. As said so eloquently by my friend Kaiser, this is a problem for most ghost teams because:
♥Kammi: can you name a type that doesnt have access to a boosting physical attacker without at least a neutral move on sableye?
Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: ghost LOL // Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: wait no // Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: all types have a boosting attacker wtf
And most teams already run that physical attacker. Anything with guts also hurts majorly. The physical attacker switches in on Sableye-Mega, almost always outspeeds, and boosts first turn. The Sableye uses Will-o-Wisp. If the attacker used SD, this is a minor setback, they're just neutral now- one or two more boosts and that'll do it. If the attacker has Lum, it's gg for the Sableye. Let's take a look at some boosted physical attackers:
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(btw, Bisharp lives the damage from Will-o-Wisp and the next turn Dark Pulse (+2 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 102-120 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) and can Sucker Punch to kill with about 32% HP left to spare, assuming max roll on DPulse)
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 241-285 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(btw, Bisharp lives the damage from Will-o-Wisp and the next turn Dark Pulse (+2 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 102-120 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) and can Sucker Punch to kill with about 32% HP left to spare, assuming max roll on DPulse)
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 241-285 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In addition to attacking mons that can defeat Mega Sab, there's the special walls that can simply stall it out. Anything that Dark Pulse, the most common move on Sableye, isn't very effective on, or just good special walls in general, can wall Mega Sableye until it's worn down or out of PP.
+6 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 154-183 (23.9 - 28.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 4HKO
+6 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 99-117 (26.5 - 31.3%) -- 15.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 99-117 (26.5 - 31.3%) -- 15.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Why Ban on Dark?
Dark has access to other hazard controllers that ghost does not have, more defensive mons, and heal bell in the form of Umbreon. In my personal opinion, regular Sableye would do the job just fine on Dark, as they do not need the magic bounce as much as ghost does. I don't actually care that much about it being banned on Dark, either- it just seems that these are the reasons why Ghost would keep it and Dark would not. Also, as Acast stated earlier:
Conclusion
Well, as we have seen illustrated here, there are a number of fairly common ways to work around Mega Sableye. Boosting physical attackers, any physical attacker with fire typing, physical attackers with substitute or lum berry, physical attackers with guts, heal bellers for stalling, special walls for stalling, haze and clear smog for eliminating the CM boosts, other CM attackers, and last but DEFINITELY not least, critical hits (how could we forget!!!). I would like to add my personal thought that Mega Sableye rounds out ghost on the whole, providing hazard control, a pokemon that cannot be statused to make up for lack of a healer, defensively strong stats and good typing to make up for the complete WRECKAGE that is Knock Off, and an alternative to a physical wall besides Gourgeist, Cofagrigus, and Dusclops, which are all rather subpar. It makes ghost a more viable type to run and balances out some of the weaknesses that it had previously. It is definitely not unbeatable, and I believe the metagame will adjust to it given time.
You Wrote Too Damn Much; Give Me a Short Version
Mega Sableye loses to physical attackers that can boost or are immune to Will-o-Wisp. Mega Sableye can be forced to switch out or pp stalled out with Chansey or other strong special walls or CM boosters. If an attacker sets up before Mega Sableye is in, then it is easily killed. It's not unbeatable because of this along with lack of other hazard control and heal bell support. I'm in favor of no ban on ghost.
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Kammi
You've just explained why Mega Sableye shouldn't be banned at all, and I do see what you're saying(it changes my opinion a bit as well). My problem is that since you're arguing that things can get over it in general, it doesn't really help the argument that it should be saved on Ghost; rather it helps the argument in that why should we even ban it for dark in the first place? I sincerely don't think that a defog user + a bulky heal bell user (ghost has heal bell too) should change the outcome of whether this gets banned or not for one type
My thinking is that we either ban it for both types or don't ban it all, because banning it on just Dark just because of defog doesn't make sense to me, especially since Sableye is made to pressure and stop hazards from being set. This kind of seems like I'm contradicting myself from what I said before, but I guess I didn't really form a concrete opinion to ban it or not when I posted before.
You've just explained why Mega Sableye shouldn't be banned at all, and I do see what you're saying(it changes my opinion a bit as well). My problem is that since you're arguing that things can get over it in general, it doesn't really help the argument that it should be saved on Ghost; rather it helps the argument in that why should we even ban it for dark in the first place? I sincerely don't think that a defog user + a bulky heal bell user (ghost has heal bell too) should change the outcome of whether this gets banned or not for one type
My thinking is that we either ban it for both types or don't ban it all, because banning it on just Dark just because of defog doesn't make sense to me, especially since Sableye is made to pressure and stop hazards from being set. This kind of seems like I'm contradicting myself from what I said before, but I guess I didn't really form a concrete opinion to ban it or not when I posted before.
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I already said I don't mind if it's banned on dark, either, I'm just trying to explain why ghost should not have it banned (that's all I care about anyways). Thanks for your input though! Yeah, I agree...there's not much solid argument separating Dark from Ghost at this point, so it seems like both stay or both go.
Also, @"ghost has a heal bell too"....it's Mismagius. What does it do, heal bell once then die?
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I know im bringing this topic again but...
Is this fair? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200402020
For real? It is? I cant do anything to beat steel. Is just sad.
Is this fair? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200402020
For real? It is? I cant do anything to beat steel. Is just sad.
You cant beat steel with fairy. I´m not runing hp ground klefki or just mawile with lo... and steel is a common type.
Is not a balanced meta when I have this big disadvantage against a type, or it is?
I wanted to like your post just because of this part that you brought up, but I disagree with the rest so I couldn't bring myself to hit "like"... x_x
Yes, Ghost has Heal bell All Falls Down . If we want to argue over specific details, Ghost also has Defog in the form of Drifblim, but neither are viable, otherwise they would be used on Ghost teams a lot more often. Defog and Heal Bell would be awesome, but I'd rather not waste a 6th member of my team just for one move that it will probably only be able to pull off once.
Too Long; Don't Read: Don't ban Sableye-Mega because it can be countered by a long list of things.
Boring Unnecessary Introduction: Hi I'm Argus. I run ghost, and I don't think Sableye should be banned on ghost. I'm not going to speak for dark, as I don't have enough experience with dark to have anything to say with confidence. Anyway on to the arguments.
Does Ghost need Mega-Sableye?: In my opinion, not at all. I've run it before we had it. I'll run it if we lose it. Right now its an option that if deemed OP will be banned. I consider Mega-Sableye a nice thing to have around. It can take a dark attack, cripple a phys. attacker, and if executed at the correct time, set up for a sweep. I like to think of it as a luxury, or perhaps a bit of make-up for ghost's lack of a defogger. Either way, I don't believe it is a necessity, in the same way as grass doesn't need Shaymin-Sky or Bug needs Genesect to be a valid option in Monotype, if not even less so.
Why it’s OP: 3 immunities. 2 OP abilites. 1 weakness. 0 shits given. Well, not quite. If zero shits were given, everyone would just run ghost and Sableye would dominate the ladder. But that doesn’t change the matter. The main reason Sableye is considered overpowered is because of its ability to set up calm minds with reliable recovery, significant bulk, and immunity to taunts and direct statusing.
How to Stop It
Kill it before it lays eggs!: This is the only correct response. Kill it or phaze it before it sets up, and you’re golden. Let’s take a common position you might find yourself in. You’re on your way with your wall, when suddenly Sableye is switched in. How do you respond? Switch out. Which leads to the next section.
Brute Force: Sableye has Mega-Evolved and has set up a Calm Mind. I see no better way than to list a response for each type. (Types are listed in order of usage taken from here: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/stats.html)
Note: I didn’t run any calcs due to time constraints. If you see any incorrect information please alert me and I’ll sort out the matter.
It’s gone...For now: Good job, they either switched out, or died. Which leads to the next point, after they switch. One of the things about Mega-Sableye is that its not nearly as powerful after it has switched out. Not only has it mostly taken some damage at this point, its also taking whatever hazard damage is around as well (Note: Ghost has no viable way to deal with hazards). On top of that, its lost its prankster. At this point you’re dealing with whatever they sent in. If you’re using a Fairy attack, they probably went into Aegislash, Scald to Jellicent, etc. These, are not banned in monotype, and therefore you should be able to take them out. If you can’t take them out with your team, then that’s on you, not the monotype banlist. It’s like banning Skarmory because it switches into your team of all physical attackers.
I don’t have these Checks!: I will admit, some of these checks aren’t exactly the most viable, but a majority of them are valid. If you are getting swept battle after battle by Ghost teams (Which is statistically unlikely due to the solid 2.32% of users running it), then consider running them. If your team can’t afford to be changed, well that’s a decision you’ve made but it doesn’t make Sableye-Mega the culprit.
Conclusion: What? Don’t ban Sablenite. Why? It can be countered. How? Read the list of checks. Who? You or anyone who needs help countering Sableye. When? Before you consider supporting the ban. Please bring up any other questions and I’ll try to answer them to the best of my ability.
Boring Unnecessary Introduction: Hi I'm Argus. I run ghost, and I don't think Sableye should be banned on ghost. I'm not going to speak for dark, as I don't have enough experience with dark to have anything to say with confidence. Anyway on to the arguments.
Does Ghost need Mega-Sableye?: In my opinion, not at all. I've run it before we had it. I'll run it if we lose it. Right now its an option that if deemed OP will be banned. I consider Mega-Sableye a nice thing to have around. It can take a dark attack, cripple a phys. attacker, and if executed at the correct time, set up for a sweep. I like to think of it as a luxury, or perhaps a bit of make-up for ghost's lack of a defogger. Either way, I don't believe it is a necessity, in the same way as grass doesn't need Shaymin-Sky or Bug needs Genesect to be a valid option in Monotype, if not even less so.
Why it’s OP: 3 immunities. 2 OP abilites. 1 weakness. 0 shits given. Well, not quite. If zero shits were given, everyone would just run ghost and Sableye would dominate the ladder. But that doesn’t change the matter. The main reason Sableye is considered overpowered is because of its ability to set up calm minds with reliable recovery, significant bulk, and immunity to taunts and direct statusing.
How to Stop It
Kill it before it lays eggs!: This is the only correct response. Kill it or phaze it before it sets up, and you’re golden. Let’s take a common position you might find yourself in. You’re on your way with your wall, when suddenly Sableye is switched in. How do you respond? Switch out. Which leads to the next section.
Brute Force: Sableye has Mega-Evolved and has set up a Calm Mind. I see no better way than to list a response for each type. (Types are listed in order of usage taken from here: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/stats.html)
Note: I didn’t run any calcs due to time constraints. If you see any incorrect information please alert me and I’ll sort out the matter.
-Flying:
Zard-X: Burn proof and insane power, full attack investment isn’t even required.
Togekiss: Rather luck based, but with a wall like Sableye, you have all the time in the world to get lucky. Spam Air Slash, wait for a crit.
-Steel:
Bisharp: Sub, SD, Iron Head. By the time they break the sub they’re dead.
-Psychic:
Specs “Booty” Meloetta w/ Dazzling Gleam.
Gardevoir: Mega or non-mega, STAB Fairy will hurt.
Victini: V-Create.
Wobuffet: Dbond.
-Normal:
Chansey eats it up.
Lopunny HJK OHKOs. RIP Sableye.
-Bug:
Volcorona: Set up as you watch them struggle. Spam your +6 fiery dance and marvel as you transcend into your planar form.
Heracross: Guts Megahorn.
-Water:
Scald in generally. Sableye really does not appreciate statuses. With no lefties to soften the damage, status damage adds up quickly, meaning more time wasted recovering and less time boosting, wisping, and attacking.
Keldeo: With notable offenses and the scald for chip damage, Sableye will be forced into recover spamming, switching out, or attacking, which won’t end well for it.
Tentacruel: Acid Spray. Take it out with tent, or send in a special attacker to finish the job.
-Fighting:
Hawlucha: Sub (if you run sitrus/liechi set.). SD. Acrobatics/Sky Attack.
Heracross: Guts Megahorn.
Keldeo: Wear it down with scalds, Specs to speed up the process.
-Dragon:
Kyurem: Outrage.
Garchomp-Mega: Outrage.
Altaria-Mega: Outr- Erm..Return.
-Fairy:
Azumarill Play Rough. Unaware Clefable.
-Dark:
Umbreon Toxic. Magic bounce poisons you, but synchronizes it onto Sableye.
SD Bisharp.
Your own Mega-Sableye
-Ground:
Mega Garchomp: Outrage.
Diggersby: SD + Earthquake
-Fire:
Physical Attackers. Burn proof, and with neutral STAB in sun Sableye is toast (Haha.)
Volcorona: Boost, boost some more, kill.
-Poison:
Gengar: Dbond. Requires a certain degree of prediction.
Tentacruel: Acid spray. Wear down Sableye then kill it yourself, or come in with a revenge killer.
-Ice:
Kyurem White: Assuming you’re specs, just spam ice beam. If they set up another calm mind, they’re dead. If they spam recover, they’re dead.
Articuno: Haze. Somewhat random, but it may come in handy.
-Ghost:
Sableye: Set up yours before theirs :I
Aegislash: Predict a dark pulse, get the weak policy boost, take it out.
Golurk: Curse it. “Who runs curse Golurk?” Me. “Why?” Phazing and bulky shit.
-Grass:
Shaymin-Sky: Seed flare + Serene Grace means that any boosts that Sableye has up will be immediately taken. Even if Shay dies, Sableye will be close enough to dead for revenge killing.
-Rock:
Omastar?: Possibly. I'll do calcs later.
-Electric:
Sorry, but I have nothing within reason to offer.
Zard-X: Burn proof and insane power, full attack investment isn’t even required.
Togekiss: Rather luck based, but with a wall like Sableye, you have all the time in the world to get lucky. Spam Air Slash, wait for a crit.
-Steel:
Bisharp: Sub, SD, Iron Head. By the time they break the sub they’re dead.
-Psychic:
Specs “Booty” Meloetta w/ Dazzling Gleam.
Gardevoir: Mega or non-mega, STAB Fairy will hurt.
Victini: V-Create.
-Normal:
Chansey eats it up.
Lopunny HJK OHKOs. RIP Sableye.
-Bug:
Volcorona: Set up as you watch them struggle. Spam your +6 fiery dance and marvel as you transcend into your planar form.
Heracross: Guts Megahorn.
-Water:
Scald in generally. Sableye really does not appreciate statuses. With no lefties to soften the damage, status damage adds up quickly, meaning more time wasted recovering and less time boosting, wisping, and attacking.
Keldeo: With notable offenses and the scald for chip damage, Sableye will be forced into recover spamming, switching out, or attacking, which won’t end well for it.
Tentacruel: Acid Spray. Take it out with tent, or send in a special attacker to finish the job.
-Fighting:
Hawlucha: Sub (if you run sitrus/liechi set.). SD. Acrobatics/Sky Attack.
Heracross: Guts Megahorn.
Keldeo: Wear it down with scalds, Specs to speed up the process.
-Dragon:
Kyurem: Outrage.
Garchomp-Mega: Outrage.
Altaria-Mega: Outr- Erm..Return.
-Fairy:
Azumarill Play Rough. Unaware Clefable.
-Dark:
Umbreon Toxic. Magic bounce poisons you, but synchronizes it onto Sableye.
SD Bisharp.
Your own Mega-Sableye
-Ground:
Mega Garchomp: Outrage.
Diggersby: SD + Earthquake
-Fire:
Physical Attackers. Burn proof, and with neutral STAB in sun Sableye is toast (Haha.)
Volcorona: Boost, boost some more, kill.
-Poison:
Gengar: Dbond. Requires a certain degree of prediction.
Tentacruel: Acid spray. Wear down Sableye then kill it yourself, or come in with a revenge killer.
-Ice:
Kyurem White: Assuming you’re specs, just spam ice beam. If they set up another calm mind, they’re dead. If they spam recover, they’re dead.
Articuno: Haze. Somewhat random, but it may come in handy.
-Ghost:
Sableye: Set up yours before theirs :I
Aegislash: Predict a dark pulse, get the weak policy boost, take it out.
Golurk: Curse it. “Who runs curse Golurk?” Me. “Why?” Phazing and bulky shit.
-Grass:
Shaymin-Sky: Seed flare + Serene Grace means that any boosts that Sableye has up will be immediately taken. Even if Shay dies, Sableye will be close enough to dead for revenge killing.
-Rock:
Omastar?: Possibly. I'll do calcs later.
-Electric:
Sorry, but I have nothing within reason to offer.
I don’t have these Checks!: I will admit, some of these checks aren’t exactly the most viable, but a majority of them are valid. If you are getting swept battle after battle by Ghost teams (Which is statistically unlikely due to the solid 2.32% of users running it), then consider running them. If your team can’t afford to be changed, well that’s a decision you’ve made but it doesn’t make Sableye-Mega the culprit.
Conclusion: What? Don’t ban Sablenite. Why? It can be countered. How? Read the list of checks. Who? You or anyone who needs help countering Sableye. When? Before you consider supporting the ban. Please bring up any other questions and I’ll try to answer them to the best of my ability.
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I just threw in that fact without much meaning, yes I know that Mismagius isn't as effective as Umbreon (I even put it in parentheses to denote that it wasn't a bulky user of it) Although this is besides the point, Mismagius is still viable, and it's not like Umbreon is used that often in Dark either (mostly because it is huge setup fodder and is really only good for one thing) with 11% usage and Mismagius being near 7% usage. Again, this isn't even my main point so no need to separately address this.
There's some points in your post that got me interested, firstly about Sableye typing which is awesome for a bulky pokemon and should be one of the factor to consider the ban along with it's ability before evolution and after evolution. You have also stated that ghost doesn't need it, right they don't need it but they are trying to defend it even though it is broken, making us think that Mega Sableye is needed on ghost.
Secondly, the Mega Sableye user will be smart about his decision of when to set up his pokemon, he wouldn't set it up randomly. About the counters most of them are viable but other types suffer like electric and rock, and that's what we should think about, why would some types suffer for the sake of others? Yea I know it's impossible to make all types viable but we should at least balance the metagame for them.
Thirdly, yea it's either adapt or perish but on the counter list you act like it's a 1v1 battle which is false, ghost has amazing pokemon to switch into to rescue mega sableye notably the Element Core which consist of Jellicent/Gourgeist/Chandelure adding to that core Aegislash which sponge fairy attacks. Also why do we act as Offensive pokemon of the other team isn't burned? Jellicent and Gourgeist carry Will-o-Wisp making it harder to attack sableye directly (aka physical) relying on special hits which after some calm minds becomes annoying to deal with (/me looks at dragon without mega altaria). Also we shouldn't run specific pokemon to deal with mega sableye and that prove my point that it is broken and some of the counters doesn't do great damage to sableye, did you know that?
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Shame that you didn't add crawdaunt look at that monster right here
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 182-216 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Shame that you didn't add crawdaunt look at that monster right here
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 182-216 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'll probably do more calc but as a dark user running umbreon for my answer to sableye is a no. I'm also running Crawdaunt just for it, crawdaunt you lil monster <3 So I still think that Mega Sableye deserve a BAN on BOTH types
You may want to rephrase what you call counters... Less than half of theses are checks at the most and they are pretty shaky ones too. Anyway Most of the ones you have listed are physical attackers who get wrecked by WoW and possible Confuse Ray too. And even the special ones have trouble getting passed it, if it has enough CM's set up by the time they switch in.
I'd especially like to point out the Ground "counters" due to Ground being one of the monos I have the most experience with. Although you have listed Mega Garchomp's Outrage and Diggersby's SD and EQ as ways to take M-Sableye down, Mega Chomp gets ruined by Wil O and full physical MegaChomp isn't as viable as mixed. And Diggersby is just not viable enough to run in Ground at all even if it is just to check M-Sableye which would probably win 1v1 anyway
Why not? Honestly, your attacking slot with Klefki is pretty much filler. Might as well take that pot shot at Heatran before you go. Does roughly 25% to a specially defensive variant, and if you luck out and get the crit, it's almost 50%
I originally had an old post quoted here, but there was quite a bit of discussion following Kammi's narrative, which was great btw. I want to return to the different types of support Dark and Ghost teams provide. So far, we have been focused on Dark's ability to defog and heal bell, which has bugged AFD, among others.
If I thought it was solely the heal bell and defog support Dark provided, then I would be supporting a ban on both types. However, for me, the more important support is the offensive pressure Dark teams can apply in order to remove threats to mega-Sableye. Pokemon such as Greninja, Bisharp, Ttar, Hydriegon, Honchkrow, etc. can wear down a team; all while being supported by Mandibuzz, Umbreon or (possibly) regular Sableye. In many cases, Sableye can just sit in back and wait to sweep once the other 5 Pokemon have done their job.
Ghost, on the other hand, is full of things that can struggle to pressure an opponent: Jellicent, Gourgeist, Golurk, Frosslass, Cofagrigus and a couple others that do not see much usage. They are on the team because they provide ancillary support (hazards, taunt, etc.) or a safe switch into attacks aimed at Sableye/Aegislash. Aegislash is the primary exception to this point as it clearly pressures opposing teams. Aegislash, coupled with choice-locked Chandelure and Gengar are not enough to really pressure an opposing team to the point a Ghost user is easily removing checks/counters the opponent wants to keep healthy. Thus, one can pivot whenever a Ghost user is forced to switch m-Sableye out of the battle and work on whittling down the Pokemon that provide safe switch-ins until its time to deal with m-Sab again, unlike against a Dark team.
If I thought it was solely the heal bell and defog support Dark provided, then I would be supporting a ban on both types. However, for me, the more important support is the offensive pressure Dark teams can apply in order to remove threats to mega-Sableye. Pokemon such as Greninja, Bisharp, Ttar, Hydriegon, Honchkrow, etc. can wear down a team; all while being supported by Mandibuzz, Umbreon or (possibly) regular Sableye. In many cases, Sableye can just sit in back and wait to sweep once the other 5 Pokemon have done their job.
Ghost, on the other hand, is full of things that can struggle to pressure an opponent: Jellicent, Gourgeist, Golurk, Frosslass, Cofagrigus and a couple others that do not see much usage. They are on the team because they provide ancillary support (hazards, taunt, etc.) or a safe switch into attacks aimed at Sableye/Aegislash. Aegislash is the primary exception to this point as it clearly pressures opposing teams. Aegislash, coupled with choice-locked Chandelure and Gengar are not enough to really pressure an opposing team to the point a Ghost user is easily removing checks/counters the opponent wants to keep healthy. Thus, one can pivot whenever a Ghost user is forced to switch m-Sableye out of the battle and work on whittling down the Pokemon that provide safe switch-ins until its time to deal with m-Sab again, unlike against a Dark team.
This all the way. Nothing more needs to be said to prove the point.
alright this is going of topic with your whole sableye argument, but as a Former fire user, i feel that the way the whole monotype meta is being shaped at the moment, i want us to take a look at the Fire Typing.
majority of fire monos consist of 9 common pokes, Charizard, Infernape, Darm, Heatran, Rotom-Heat, Volcarona, Entei, Victini and Torkoal. 1 key Pokemon that played a nice role in mono fire teams before it's banning was Talonflame. Without Talonflame, Fire tends to struggle against mono fighting, mono fairy (i'll get to this), Mono Dragon (without talonflame we basically have to hope it's a bad player), Monoflying, and a bit of a struggle against mono Dark. i'll Cover the weaknesses against Talonflame in a second also. referring to Bug and Grass most, since mono fighting can go either way in this discussion.
With All these Being said, my main point i'm aiming at is that the meta is mainly about bulky offense, and with teams having bulky mons on their teams, and such faster 100+ scarfers, fire misses out in this end, unless you scarf Infernape, which causes you to lose Coverage Effectiveness with him, and fire not having the bulky access and support as flying did, doesn't make dealing with it quite as hard. Fire Typing itself i noticed to not be as effective as it used to be, due to the speedy Sweepers and not having much to deal with 1 poke being able to outspeed and sweep our entire teams. Also Pre Talonflame ban, you seen considerable amount of Fire users within the MetaGame, but with the typing not being able to do much, the usage of the typing dropped from being one of the top used typing to only having a 3.27% Usage Rate (According To the Usage Stats. http://monotypeps.weebly.com/stats.html) and Having Mono Fire Users who used to Main the Typing, to move onto something else to have more success, Such as Myself, and notable others.
I do believe with Unbanning Talonflame for fire, not only will it have more success as a typing again, but i do believe it will also increase in typing usage again, and give former fire users a reason to comeback to using fire, in tours and ladders
majority of fire monos consist of 9 common pokes, Charizard, Infernape, Darm, Heatran, Rotom-Heat, Volcarona, Entei, Victini and Torkoal. 1 key Pokemon that played a nice role in mono fire teams before it's banning was Talonflame. Without Talonflame, Fire tends to struggle against mono fighting, mono fairy (i'll get to this), Mono Dragon (without talonflame we basically have to hope it's a bad player), Monoflying, and a bit of a struggle against mono Dark. i'll Cover the weaknesses against Talonflame in a second also. referring to Bug and Grass most, since mono fighting can go either way in this discussion.
Take the listed pokes into a match against a mono fighting team. standard mono fighting teams consist of Scarfed Terrakion, Specs or Sub Calm Mind Keldeo, Conk, Megacham or Mega Gallade, Breloom, Infernape and Scrafty. The 2 to keep most in mind is Terrakion and Keldeo, both of these mons are capable of tearing through fire monos, i tend to have to hope on stone misses or force myself to sack certain mons, but most times end up taking a loss in the ending anyways, with this i am bringing up that with talonflame we would be able revenge kill atleast keldeo, and a few more fighting mons, except for mainly the top 2 used to try deal with Talonflame, terrakion and Cobalion. Terrakion takes
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so it would be an ideal revenge killer for Talonflame, Cobalion itself has a safe switch into Talonflame.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Cobalion: 153-180 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
With the remaining 104 EVs you have access to, you can easily invest it into attack to drop talonflame, 104 Atk Cobalion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 292-348 (98.3 - 117.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO, with talonflame attacking you the previous turn, you'll be able to drop it with the rock slide, and with Fire monotypes, you have a limited source to safely switch out into, such as Infernape, Heatran, and Torkoal, unlike flying where you can safely switch out taking minimal damage, such as Skarm, Gliscor and Landorus. So with Fighting Monotypes there is the check and Revenge Killer you can run for talonflame.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200482100
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so it would be an ideal revenge killer for Talonflame, Cobalion itself has a safe switch into Talonflame.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Cobalion: 153-180 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
With the remaining 104 EVs you have access to, you can easily invest it into attack to drop talonflame, 104 Atk Cobalion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 292-348 (98.3 - 117.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO, with talonflame attacking you the previous turn, you'll be able to drop it with the rock slide, and with Fire monotypes, you have a limited source to safely switch out into, such as Infernape, Heatran, and Torkoal, unlike flying where you can safely switch out taking minimal damage, such as Skarm, Gliscor and Landorus. So with Fighting Monotypes there is the check and Revenge Killer you can run for talonflame.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200482100
Against Mono Fairy you tend to have to deal with Klefki first turn, he can get up Screens Guaranteed. Causing you to not Drop him unless Flamethrower from Zard Y in sun, with a less than 50% chance to due so.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki in Sun through Light Screen: 288-339 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
This Leaves Klefki a chance at a turn to set up a Reflect or Paralyze Zard Y. When Dead you Can Bring in your Azumarill and Belly Drum Behind the Light Screen.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill through Light Screen: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
Seeing as that you barely 2hko it, it get's it's free belly drum this turn and with the use of Sitrus berry still have leftover hp to maneuver with, also allowing you to drop Zard Y the same turn
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 386-456 (129.9 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
bringing in Torkoal next turn isn't going to stop azumarill next turn either with Yawn. since torkoal is outsped and dropped with Waterfall with the sun up.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal in Sun: 356-422 (103.4 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bringing in Heatran Also isn't going to be Stopping Azumarill due to Light Screen, you'll have to hope on a Lava Plume Burn to safely bring it down, as both Earth Power and Lava Plume do the same amount of damage to Azumarill since you often run 0 SpA investment with Heatran on Fire, with Dealing only 12-14% damage, and with the Sitrus Berry it still has the health leftover to finish off Heatran next turn.
Having Talonflame, we'd be able to bring down Azu without the use of running Entei just for the extreme speed.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-1143018 This is me getting wrecked by Azu in the ending with no way of being able to Take it out.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki in Sun through Light Screen: 288-339 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
This Leaves Klefki a chance at a turn to set up a Reflect or Paralyze Zard Y. When Dead you Can Bring in your Azumarill and Belly Drum Behind the Light Screen.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill through Light Screen: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
Seeing as that you barely 2hko it, it get's it's free belly drum this turn and with the use of Sitrus berry still have leftover hp to maneuver with, also allowing you to drop Zard Y the same turn
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 386-456 (129.9 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
bringing in Torkoal next turn isn't going to stop azumarill next turn either with Yawn. since torkoal is outsped and dropped with Waterfall with the sun up.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal in Sun: 356-422 (103.4 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bringing in Heatran Also isn't going to be Stopping Azumarill due to Light Screen, you'll have to hope on a Lava Plume Burn to safely bring it down, as both Earth Power and Lava Plume do the same amount of damage to Azumarill since you often run 0 SpA investment with Heatran on Fire, with Dealing only 12-14% damage, and with the Sitrus Berry it still has the health leftover to finish off Heatran next turn.
Having Talonflame, we'd be able to bring down Azu without the use of running Entei just for the extreme speed.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-1143018 This is me getting wrecked by Azu in the ending with no way of being able to Take it out.
Mono Dragon i have no reason to bring this up, fire always struggled with Dragon in gen 5, and with the addition of talonflame we were able to outspeed scarfed Salamence, scarfed Garchomp and being able to revenge kill. like honestly we have to resort to insane luck and hope they're not the greatest dragon user.
Well Monoflying as a Whole hurts monoFire. the accessibility of Salamence, Mega Gyarados, Mega Zard X, Dragonite, Landorus-T. it makes it rather difficult for fire users to beat them, Salamence you have to hope on a speed with win with victini and Glaciate, before you get the train moving, mega gyarados can safely sub behind something unable to do much damage to, such as Torkoal and Heatran, which leads to us switching out, giving it a free turn to dragon dance, along with another one second turn when sub is taken down. Zard X is a monster when given that Dragon Dance boost along with eq and Dragon claw. Landorus-T can be a pain without scarfed Darm in play or Victini, causing you to sack, then can switch out when trying to revenge kill, to Skarm for Darm, and Zapdos or Togekiss for Victini. Dragonite with the multiscale guarantees the free turn to Dragon Dance against monofires, and with a lum berry, you can prevent a burn chance on that turn. atleast with Talonflame you'll be able to atleast try stop the Salamence Moxie Train from sweeping your team, along with Gyarados and Charizard X. dragonite may just e-speed you anyways to ko. you also have your safe switchouts on the talonflame Brave Bird, to something Like Zapdos and skarm. Which are both common on most mono flying teams anyways.
ScarfNinja basically causes problems for mono fire in Dark vs Fire Match Ups, if you're lucky you can catch Greninja with Infernape while it's still has it's dark typing, but it often leads to a safe switch out with Mandibuzz, and with the whole weather wars, you have to keep sun up or else it's just going to outspeed all your pokes in your team and have a chance to take them out with 1-2 surfs. only pokes that can safely switch in on a surf is Heatran, in which can't do very much in return, and Zard Y, in which they can safely switch into Tyranitar, unless you hope on 2 focus blasts to land and take it out. Dealing with Greninja you have to damage him bit by bit, or hope you have rotom-Heat in and it having Fresh Hp.
252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rotom-H: 188-224 (61.8 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 236-278 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But With Rotom-Heat you have a 50% chance to take out greninja that turn.
252 SpA Rotom-H Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 264-312 (92.3 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO, leaving you that slight chance to be ko'd next turned. having to finish off with a mach punch or extreme speed from Infernape or Entei.
Victini can take a Surf from Greninja as well, but is unable to ko it unless with bolt strike, but doesn't mean Greninja can't safely switch out.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200490682
252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rotom-H: 188-224 (61.8 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 236-278 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But With Rotom-Heat you have a 50% chance to take out greninja that turn.
252 SpA Rotom-H Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 264-312 (92.3 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO, leaving you that slight chance to be ko'd next turned. having to finish off with a mach punch or extreme speed from Infernape or Entei.
Victini can take a Surf from Greninja as well, but is unable to ko it unless with bolt strike, but doesn't mean Greninja can't safely switch out.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200490682
Monobug. When Talonflame was originally banned, the Poke people often used to deal with it, Genesect was banned beforehand, leaving Bug users few choices on dealing with Talonflame, such as Armaldo, Crustle, and Sashes. but now with greninja back, bug users have a mon to help deal with Talonflame with the Access To Extreme Speed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 179-211 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
leaves enough room for a slim chance for Talonflame and Genesect to take each other out.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Genesect: 244-288 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Genesect is able to e-speed 1 more time, leaving it able to take out the infamous bug sweeper.
Armaldo is also able to eat up a Choice Banded Brave bird to hit it back with Rock Slide and drop it the same turn also.
You also have the sash Galvantula to just thunder the thing also.
252+ Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 179-211 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
leaves enough room for a slim chance for Talonflame and Genesect to take each other out.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Genesect: 244-288 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Genesect is able to e-speed 1 more time, leaving it able to take out the infamous bug sweeper.
Armaldo is also able to eat up a Choice Banded Brave bird to hit it back with Rock Slide and drop it the same turn also.
You also have the sash Galvantula to just thunder the thing also.
With a New Addition to Mono Grass. Skymin, you have access to Psychic, Air Slash, Earth Power and Seed Flare. the ones that cause the most problems for fire is air slash and Earth power. being able to flinch a poke you can't 1hko with earth Power, such as heatran, you can cause problems for fire monos, i personally myself beat fire monos due to Chlorophyll Shiftry and Expert Belt Skymin, and with People tending to scarf Shaymin Sky and have it modest nature, you're able to deal with Infernape
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 338-398 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
50% chance to 1hko Darmanitan
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 328-386 (93.4 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 204-241 (58.1 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
with the chance to just flinch it to death.
Guaranteed Chance to 2hko Heatran
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 292-344 (75.8 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With heatran not being able to 1hko Skymin itself either unless relying on a burn
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Entei Can Take a Earth Power and Finish off Skymin, but that's only if there isn't rocks in on the field.
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 260-306 (70 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Victini and Rotom-H are the only 2 able to take a hit from Skymin and be able to Ko It if not Flinch Haxed To Death.
If Talonflame were to be unbanned for Fire, grass users could revert back to what they used before, such as rocky helmet Ferrothorn, in which can safely switch in on a brave bird, and put rocks out next turn.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 141-166 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Talonflame would take considerable amount of damage from this.
Cradily Could be a Revenge Killer, and with access to both Eq and Rock Slide, could deal considerable amount of damage when switching out to Heatran.
For Cradily and Talonflame
0 Atk Cradily Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 360-424 (121.2 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 172-204 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
For Cradily and Heatran.
0 Atk Cradily Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 232-276 (60.2 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Grass is capable of taking Talonflame out, in which users can easily transition to do so to overcome big problems, Mega Pinsir is dealt with without complaints, and it can be as big as a problem as well in most cases.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-183011420
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-183649935
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-183645094
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 338-398 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
50% chance to 1hko Darmanitan
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 328-386 (93.4 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 204-241 (58.1 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
with the chance to just flinch it to death.
Guaranteed Chance to 2hko Heatran
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 292-344 (75.8 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With heatran not being able to 1hko Skymin itself either unless relying on a burn
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Entei Can Take a Earth Power and Finish off Skymin, but that's only if there isn't rocks in on the field.
252+ SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 260-306 (70 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Victini and Rotom-H are the only 2 able to take a hit from Skymin and be able to Ko It if not Flinch Haxed To Death.
If Talonflame were to be unbanned for Fire, grass users could revert back to what they used before, such as rocky helmet Ferrothorn, in which can safely switch in on a brave bird, and put rocks out next turn.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 141-166 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Talonflame would take considerable amount of damage from this.
Cradily Could be a Revenge Killer, and with access to both Eq and Rock Slide, could deal considerable amount of damage when switching out to Heatran.
For Cradily and Talonflame
0 Atk Cradily Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 360-424 (121.2 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 172-204 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
For Cradily and Heatran.
0 Atk Cradily Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 232-276 (60.2 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Grass is capable of taking Talonflame out, in which users can easily transition to do so to overcome big problems, Mega Pinsir is dealt with without complaints, and it can be as big as a problem as well in most cases.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-183011420
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-183649935
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-183645094
With All these Being said, my main point i'm aiming at is that the meta is mainly about bulky offense, and with teams having bulky mons on their teams, and such faster 100+ scarfers, fire misses out in this end, unless you scarf Infernape, which causes you to lose Coverage Effectiveness with him, and fire not having the bulky access and support as flying did, doesn't make dealing with it quite as hard. Fire Typing itself i noticed to not be as effective as it used to be, due to the speedy Sweepers and not having much to deal with 1 poke being able to outspeed and sweep our entire teams. Also Pre Talonflame ban, you seen considerable amount of Fire users within the MetaGame, but with the typing not being able to do much, the usage of the typing dropped from being one of the top used typing to only having a 3.27% Usage Rate (According To the Usage Stats. http://monotypeps.weebly.com/stats.html) and Having Mono Fire Users who used to Main the Typing, to move onto something else to have more success, Such as Myself, and notable others.
I do believe with Unbanning Talonflame for fire, not only will it have more success as a typing again, but i do believe it will also increase in typing usage again, and give former fire users a reason to comeback to using fire, in tours and ladders
I see what you're saying here, but at the same time the Mega Mawile ban totally changed up fairy's ability to deal with steel, so that's contradictory to your statement in a way. We have sacrificed the few for the many before, and it is extremely likely to happen again in the future, so this point isn't really valid in my opinion.
Also, I personally think Argus's strongest point is that Mega Sableye is not nearly as powerful once it switches out. It no longer has prankster, it has damage done on it already, probably, if it's switching out, on top of hazard damage- constantly switching between Mega Sab, Gourgeist, Chandelure, Jellicent, and Aegislash like people are implying ghost would do is simply not what happens, especially considering none of those pokemon are immune to Spikes and Chandelure takes 25% from SR.
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Grass couldn't take Talonflame in my opinion. The biggest threat of grass against fire (atm) is Char-Y which can be countered by Cradily, sash Breloom.
Usually everyone uses Cradily to take out Char-Y, cause it can eat up a fire blast and then easily kill it with rock slide. After that its weakened to the point where it can't revenge kill talonflame. Yeah ferro can weaken it with rocky helmet + Iron barbs combo and set rocks after that but it still does a heavy amount
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 159-187 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You make it sound like Skymin can easily clean up a fire team, but u didn't even add victini there, which is used more than darmanitan, actually its the 3rd most used pokemon on fire after Charidzard and Infernape,
252 SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 186-220 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarfmin can't take out victini even after the rocks.
Of course u could make the excuse of switching out to Cradily or Ferrothorn but they wouldn't survive it or be there after Char - Y and Talonflame would have weakened them enough.
As u can see Talonflame can easily clean up a grass team, but isn't that what it supposed to be its a Fire/Flying pokemon. Its supposed to be over powered against grass.
At the moment grass has a fair chance of winning fire because of Cradily and Shaymin Sky.
But if talonflame would be unbanned for fire, Well then u just would have to hope that its a dumb player.
I can see your point why Talonflame should be unbanned for fire and how it would make the type more used, but i can't see how it would work.
Everything can be tested, but i still haven't found a good enough reason why it should be unbanned.
Yeah, Fire isn't used as much as it was before, but saying that it needs a buff and its too weak compared to other types is bs imo.
Fire is the 7th least used type at the moment, it doesn't need a buff.
Saying that Talonflame should be unbanned for fire is like saying Mega - Gengar should be unbanned for poison, Both types don't need it and both poke's were banned for a reason.
But that's just my opinion, don't hate me for it.
And i forgive me for my bad english.
Usually everyone uses Cradily to take out Char-Y, cause it can eat up a fire blast and then easily kill it with rock slide. After that its weakened to the point where it can't revenge kill talonflame. Yeah ferro can weaken it with rocky helmet + Iron barbs combo and set rocks after that but it still does a heavy amount
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 159-187 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You make it sound like Skymin can easily clean up a fire team, but u didn't even add victini there, which is used more than darmanitan, actually its the 3rd most used pokemon on fire after Charidzard and Infernape,
252 SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 186-220 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarfmin can't take out victini even after the rocks.
Of course u could make the excuse of switching out to Cradily or Ferrothorn but they wouldn't survive it or be there after Char - Y and Talonflame would have weakened them enough.
As u can see Talonflame can easily clean up a grass team, but isn't that what it supposed to be its a Fire/Flying pokemon. Its supposed to be over powered against grass.
At the moment grass has a fair chance of winning fire because of Cradily and Shaymin Sky.
But if talonflame would be unbanned for fire, Well then u just would have to hope that its a dumb player.
I can see your point why Talonflame should be unbanned for fire and how it would make the type more used, but i can't see how it would work.
Everything can be tested, but i still haven't found a good enough reason why it should be unbanned.
Yeah, Fire isn't used as much as it was before, but saying that it needs a buff and its too weak compared to other types is bs imo.
Fire is the 7th least used type at the moment, it doesn't need a buff.
Saying that Talonflame should be unbanned for fire is like saying Mega - Gengar should be unbanned for poison, Both types don't need it and both poke's were banned for a reason.
But that's just my opinion, don't hate me for it.
And i forgive me for my bad english.
I'm gonna re-say what I said in another post. Fairy lost Mega Mawile due to it's ability to destroying other mono, we shouldn't sacrifice the metagame just for the sake of one monotype to have advantage. Same thing goes for Mega Sableye which has an ability to wall some mono that doesn't have viable counter electric, rock... which ruin the metagame, and I'll re-say it we shouldn't sacrifice the metagame for the sake of one type. Mega Mawile and Mega Sableye made some monos team use ''specific sets'' to deal with them. We have dealt with mega mawile not it's mega sableye turn.
Couldn't agree more tbh, altho I find it funny that since a grass was being "swept" by Fire or talonflame it be precise, fire was nerfed but. Fire has been getting dicked on by Fighting after the ban and More importantly Dragons, no one does anything abt it
alright to correct your statement, i posted replays for you to watch for the very reason. my team worked around 3 different fire users and teams, key role in it, Chlorophyll and skymin. i have mained mono fire for more than a year. so come down to it, no matter how much i worked with the typing, i was going nowhere, it's basically a average typing at best, and with the whole "grass doesn't need anymore threats" why not ask for a banning of Mega Pinsir? that thing does work on monograss as well. and about fire being the 7th least used type atm, that says something about the typing when it was one of the most used typings, i have actual statements, i'm speaking from both as a bug, and grass user as well, it's not hard to overcome talonflame. along with the other 5 mons it'll have with it. Fire isn't necessarily the bulkiest typing, in which it doesn't have the safest switch outs to go.
Why should we even unban Talonflame at all just to benefit one monotype and have it hurt many others? Zarif you mentioned earlier that we are trying to save our own types by netting other types. But that's not the case tbh.
Talonflame is very deadly with Gale Wings giving it priority and STAB Brave Bird sweeping through most Mono Grass teams and fighting ( with the exception of Cradily and Terrakion being 2 Hits ). Why would you even think about trying to benefit one monotype by getting rid of what 3, 4, possibly 5 monotypes in the process? You also get STAB Flare Blitz sweeping through most ice teams, and grass teams. You'll give fairy types more difficulty considering the fact that Talonflame resists fairy. Also you'll be giving Talonflame to put a huge dent in Steel types and resists steel types as well. Not to mention that its immune to ground unless roost. I already have enough trouble as it is against mono fire when using steel. You're just adding more fuel to the fire trying to downgrade other monotypes just to benefit 1 type alone. That's why it needs to be useless against fighting, ground, rock or whatever to keep things balance and efficient. Even if you're scarfed, Talonflame still has priority with Brave Bird. Think outside the box of what would happen if Talonflame is unbanned. I see fire more usable and seeing other monos less useable.
Idk it feels like some of those replays, were all due to just hax though after watching the one with Grass mono.
You just want fire mono to provide more use when they're already useful enough. It was fair that Talonflame should be banned from this format.
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