You're both wrong. Will-o has a 15% chance to miss. :P
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
WOW has 85% accuracy and zen headbutt 2HKOs with a one in 5 flinch chance, so including the chance to miss from zen headbutt, he has a considerably high chance to beam rotom-w after rocks and/or chip damage.
Like I said he has to be on full HP to be a check. Otherwise you should stick to other options. Isn't physichal defensive scizor a great answer with access to a slow uturn and defog? Assuming megagross lacks fire punch?
Hm
guess I just got lucky and only faced earthquakers. Hammer arm should be the superior move though, as it beats most weakened steels. Of course you'd better Ko whatever you were hitting, because Hammer Arm will force you out when they switch next turn.
I suppose my question is: Does Metagross have a coverage move for everything that should wall it?
Why are you two arguing over Rotom checking gross or not because of hax? Hax is not taken into account when determining if something checks or counters because it is RNG reliant and does not happen consistently. That being said, Rotom is a soft check to Metagross at best because Zen Headbutt has a good chance to 2HKO after rocks. And even then all it can do Is burn it and die in the process.
It cant learn fire punch so yeah its a solid answer, though it cant do much at all besides like knock off for not that much damage or SD in its face i guess
Yep, I never considered using fire punch since HA, does everything better. It's good to know it doesn't have that move.
Interestingly enough, HP Fire does get a guaranteed 2hKO after SR on M-Scizor.
Yep but the main problem of this is that's it's usage it's kinda low, and running HP fire means that you hypothetically give up IP, HA, or GK as Metagross needs to preserve it's stats. I personally enjoy pursuit on Metagross so I'm not sure about how reliant HP fire could be on an actual build.
The only reason why something runs HP fire is to hit BOTH Ferrothorn and Scizor, and possibly Skarmory as well. Gross's HP Fire fails to 2HKO Ferro or Skarm, and only has a chance to 2HKO offensive variants of Scizor. It's not worth running when Hammer Arm is the superior option in most cases. If steels are an issue for your Metagross team, then change it to have teammates that take care of these; don't try to make Metagross do somethig it can't.
Pursuit metagross is hands down one of the best moves to use on it, mines always carry that
About hp fire. I don't think that's too viable, I mean, it can work sometimes, but it just seems easier to have a heatran on the team than wasting a slot with it, seing that, even with 40 spatt evs:
40 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 124-148 (37.1 - 44.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 144-172 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And, actually, if you use the standard mixed megagross with hp fire over grass knot, with 0 spatt evs, you don't even have a garanteed 2hko on bulky scizor (not even with 40 evs either)
0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 156-184 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO
40 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 160-192 (46.6 - 55.9%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
And using more than 40 evs on spatt just starts to compromise your physical power, anyway, I can't see it having a chance to shine
About hp fire. I don't think that's too viable, I mean, it can work sometimes, but it just seems easier to have a heatran on the team than wasting a slot with it, seing that, even with 40 spatt evs:
40 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 124-148 (37.1 - 44.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 144-172 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And, actually, if you use the standard mixed megagross with hp fire over grass knot, with 0 spatt evs, you don't even have a garanteed 2hko on bulky scizor (not even with 40 evs either)
0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 156-184 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO
40 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 160-192 (46.6 - 55.9%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
And using more than 40 evs on spatt just starts to compromise your physical power, anyway, I can't see it having a chance to shine
You're giving up coverage that's extremely important to MegaGross for HP Fire, it's not worth it since it's weak as piss and isn't even boosted by TC. Grass Knot is the only special move you should be running on it
First I want to lead by saying, I'm sorry, that came off a lot more rude than I intended. ;~;
Second, yes, the set Jukain posted on the previous page is by far the best set to be ran on megagross.
Third, to answer your question, it has answers to most of the things that could switch into it. There are only a few things that can reliably 100% wall Megagross.
Ok, now let me make an open question
The first time I used mega beedrill, I was really hyped and stuff, so I automatically assumed that it was great, however, I tried to use it again recently and I noticed that it struggles a lot in the OU metagame that we are right now, so, I ask you, besides the obvious (magnezone, spinner/defogger and a check to land-t), how do you guys think mega beedrill can be used at the moment?
The first time I used mega beedrill, I was really hyped and stuff, so I automatically assumed that it was great, however, I tried to use it again recently and I noticed that it struggles a lot in the OU metagame that we are right now, so, I ask you, besides the obvious (magnezone, spinner/defogger and a check to land-t), how do you guys think mega beedrill can be used at the moment?
My experience with Mega beedril is a shaddy one. OU is plagued by stuff he hates and have few redeeming factors, honestly it is quite punishing to use in my opinion. But I managed to have a small amount of success when using him among speedy chessnaugth and tentacruel with Choice specs sylveon on the Greninja less meta, with the aide of defog scizor and scarf Landorus. It was a train wreck half of the time.
With 40 Defense, priority murders it. So you'll need a way to remove Talonflame, Dragonite, Pinsir (SR helps against all three), Scizor, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, etc. None of those Pokemon particularly like Rotom-W, and Talonflame always wins 1-on-1 against Scizor and Pinsir. So perhaps you could try adding those Pokemon to your team to support Beedrill. Gothitelle's ability to trap can't hurt either.
Speaking of Gothitelle, in my opinion it might be more suspect-worthy than Metagross LOL, mostly due to its lack of proper counterplay that doesn't involve pure guesswork (except Pursuit i guess? But then again, you have to use guesswork to get your Pursuit user in with a double switch because you can't switch it into Goth).
Also, while Gothitelle is the bane of stall, it's not that easy to face from the point of an offensive player either. Its Scarf set, while often dismissed as "bad", is actually an extremely annoying tool that can be employed by the morecancerous passive stall builds you can see on the ladder atm. On these stall teams, Gothitelle performs the function of preventing a good number of dedicated stallbreakers from running through your team by either revenge killing them with psyshock or crippling them with a Scarf. So basically otherwise terrifying stall/wallbreakers such as SD Toxic Orb Breloom, Keldeo, Mega Heracross (or even regular CB or Toxic Orb Heracross) are going to get no more than 1 kill, because Goth will revenge with Psyshock afterwards with prior damage (or without prior damage if taking into account Superpower / CC defense drops), and other mons such as Heatran, Clefable, and even the almighty CM Landorus-I are crippled with a Scarf (gothitelle can also switch into unboosted Earth Power as long as Rocks aren't up i think). So basically what Gothitelle does is putting a surprisingly big strain on some offensive builds that can't afford to dedicate more than one slot to specifically deal with stall, by effectively limiting the pool of stallbreakers, that need to not be affected by Goth in order to do their job reliably. On top of that, this Goth set still allows the user to beat other stalls with Trick + Rest.
TL; DR The fact that Goth is quite matchup reliant doesn't make it less of a fucking retarded piece of ass.
On the topic of Metagross, I agree it may be suspect worthy as it seems to be the single biggest stop to offense since the Mega Mawile days, but I won't talk more about it because Jukain basically covered everything in his post. Plus Greninja hasn't been banned yet and the metagame needs to settle before another suspect imo, so there's no need to rush.
Also, while Gothitelle is the bane of stall, it's not that easy to face from the point of an offensive player either. Its Scarf set, while often dismissed as "bad", is actually an extremely annoying tool that can be employed by the more
TL; DR The fact that Goth is quite matchup reliant doesn't make it less of a fucking retarded piece of ass.
On the topic of Metagross, I agree it may be suspect worthy as it seems to be the single biggest stop to offense since the Mega Mawile days, but I won't talk more about it because Jukain basically covered everything in his post. Plus Greninja hasn't been banned yet and the metagame needs to settle before another suspect imo, so there's no need to rush.
Gothitelle is far from broken. Yea. It traps, but it has pretty low stats. It's also easy as hell to revenge kill or Pursuit trap.
I've heard a lot of people want to ban Shadow Tag, but it's really only broken in theory. If I saw gameplay where its shown to be gamebreaking, I'd change my mind.
I've heard a lot of people want to ban Shadow Tag, but it's really only broken in theory. If I saw gameplay where its shown to be gamebreaking, I'd change my mind.
Jukain said:
Skarmory is certainly a blanket check to the physical metagame (which is why it is featured alongside chansey on nearly every stall team). As such, it is a completely valid and very common counter for defensive teams, not to mention that Metagross has virtually no impact on its already high usage. I was obviously referring to defensive teams, so I don't really get your assumption that I was doing otherwise. Plus, you are greatly underselling Skarmory as a pokemon. Between whirlwind for boosting sweepers, counter for generic physical mons, and spikes/defog to take advantage of defensive mons like ferrothorn, it certainly isn't "one of the easiest pokemon to take advantage of." Stating that Skarm is a counter, and then dismissing it as if it is the worst mon in the tier is not proving much of anything, as it is still showing up on the great majority of defensive and even many balanced teams regardless.
Slowbro is BARELY 2hkod by grass knot. Add just a small amount of special defense (which also allows it to check things like keldeo a bit better, in case you were planning to argue that moving 40 EVs makes Metagross too centralizing), and the threat of a 2hko diminishes quite a bit. Your argument is also flawed in that you are ignoring the practicality of the situation. For slowbro to be 2hkod, Metagross would have to predict the switch and use grass knot, a move that would do close to nothing against any other mon, giving them a free switch to beat/force out metagross. You could argue that the switch to slowbro would be obvious, but that is usually completely untrue given how Metagross' checks and counters are already very prevalent in the metagame. Rather than slowbro, a lando-t switch could happen, or perhaps to bisharp or rotom or (insert counter/check/soft check). Arguing perfect prediction, ESPECIALLY against a mon with regenerator, is most certainly not a proper justification for a mon's prowess. Making a more realistic assumption that slowbro switches in on another move, it now has a free turn to launch a scald/twave/fireblast, none of which the opposing offensive team wants to deal with.
Between poison heal, roost/protect, and teammates, Gliscor most certainly has plenty of longevity. O_o It is one of the most annoying pokemon to take down in the tier for just about any playstyle.
Again, perfect prediction =/= realistic. It's not as if ferro is weak to zen headbutt/meteor mash, the two moves that metagross would typically be comfortable spamming. Predicting the ferro switch (in a team that certainly has other checks such as lando-t, slowbro, etc.) is much easier said then done, especially with a move like hammer arm that is relatively weak and will leave metagross vulnerable due to the speed drop. Ferro is free to twave/leech seed.
Wearing metagross down 10% is much easier to do than getting lando down 50%. In fact, a u-turn from that very same lando can prevent metagross from being able to tank the eq. Earthquake is admittedly easy to take advantage of, but clearly it isn't all that much of a detriment given that scarf lando is one of the most, if not the most, common mons in the current meta. Arguing that an uninvested landorus has difficulty tanking metagross' strongest attack is quite silly in itself. Keldeo doesn't like switching into earthquakes. Who would have thought?
Regardless, taking a relatively large list of checks and counters and picking out a few that are allegedly not full stops (emphasis on allegedly, as noted above) does not particularly help your case. A check is a check is a check, and metagross has lots of them. Since when have we cared about a mon having counters post gen 5 anyway (plus metagross has some)?
Fair enough, but by midgame, sacking a mon isn't the worst thing you could do. Getting that chip damage off (which is much easier to do given its lower speed) makes metagross much easier to handle later by effectively compromising the bulk that plays a part in making metagross such a great mon.
Given the very large amount of common checks/counters, not having anything to switch into metagross is either a huge teambuilding flaw or a result of getting completely outplayed.
Let me rephrase that for you.
a STAB Flare Blitz coming off of 80 attack does not OHKO a pokemon that is weak to it and has 0 defensive investment.
See the issue? It's worth noting that Zen Headbutt does not OHKO either.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 247-292 (83.1 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Let that sink in for a moment; a STAB Tough Claws Zen Headbutt does not OHKO an uninvested Talonflame of all things. It's worth noting that Banded talonflame does indeed ko by a large margin. Talonflame will indeed have to sacrifice its life to take down a Metagross that it switches into (yes, talonflame beats/can beat (depending on set) metagross even when switching in, assuming that metagross zen headbutts rather than using another move too) due to the recoil. One on one, talonflame outright 1hkos a metagross that took a bit of chip damage (or just outright 1hkos with band). As you mentioned, a will-o-wisp from a talonflame also threatens greatly. Yes, metgross can switch out, but talonflame can easily predict that and roost (if it's 1 on 1, then it wouldn't have taken any damage from gross to being with).
what we can learn from this: when in doubt, even frail offensive mons can tank a neutral attack from metagross and threaten in return
Did much less than I thought. Sorry for the claim! :) Twave is fun tho. It's also worth noting that metagross does not 1hko without rocks/chip damage.
It is worth it to note that in these cases where offensive mons check from full/almost full health, it is neccesary to save them for mid/later game (which is true for dealing with many mons with many playstyles. Think keldeo vs weakened lati. Bisharp vs weakened keldeo, etc.)
This is not unique to metagross, though. It is a flaw that comes along with using bisharp to begin with. The issue of offensive mon paired with keldeo is super common, and going against metagross in particular doesn't make bisharp any less viable. Metagross can switch, but it's only fair to mention that it needs to be wary of pursuit. This is a 2-way street.
As shown before, offense has the means to deal with metagross, whether it be through hard checks or preserving frail typical pokes. In the case of scizor, a more defensive sd setup is just as, if not more, common on balanced teams which counters metagross perfectly well. In the case of offensive scizor, this once again requires metagross to predict and hammer arm (given the likelihood that the team will also feature lando, thundy, talon, etc., hammer arm is rarely the most reliable move to spam). Even if the hammer arm connects, scizor is free to switch, and the offensive team can proceed to play around metagross and take advantage of the reduced speed. Metagross is more difficult to play around than the common offensive poke, but it is still similar in that offensive teams must partly rely on playing around it... it is simply the nature of offense. Playing reactively isn't exactly ideal. Offensive scizor isn't the best answer regardless due to it only really being able to chip away with knock off.
Fair enough, though diancie can do quite a bit with an earth power (about 86%) in the event of a speed tie/diancie is already evolved, though metagross definitely wins in the opposite scenario. Gallade works against weakened gross, but it is defintely at a disadvantage given that metagross has an inherently higher damage output against gallade.
Forgive me for my phrasing, but I was meant to say that gross AT MOST speed ties many of the other common offensive megas. Many of them can't 1hko, but they can win against a weakened metagross (and they have the inherent advantage here since they are faster). They also offer the ability to get off strong chip damage to allow other members of the team a much easier time with it (after a high jump kick, for example, it is in ko range for mons like thunderus). This does require the sacrifice of a mon in this scenario, but again, that isn't uncommon at all for offensive teams that end up with a bad one-on-one matchup, and by the time gross comes out, sacking is less of an issue (not to mention that the option of playing around it still exists to get extra damage off). Some slower common megas also fare well (uninvested char-x is only taking 60% from zen headbutt. Bulky ddance can pretty much counter).
Which is why I noted that it was completely anecdotal and irrelevant... this is purely a strawman argument. While it should by no means function as a significant part of an argument, noting that experience at the very least provides a background for my opposition, espeically in regard to believing that gross is less scary in practice. Given that it was a tiny sidenote, I don't see the issue.
Now you are twisting my intentions. It is obvious that I am not dismissing metagross as a non-threat. I am simply arguing that it is similar to other top-tier mons as a threat.
What you literally just said:
"This particular third of your team covers metagross very well. I don't think so, tho."
You provided no support, no reasoning, and, further, dismissed the other 2/3 of the team that likely contains, naturally, more checks/the ability to better play around it.
In the rest of your examples, which are appreciably more explanatory, you are completely simplifying the game and laying it out as if there is no other outcome. It is completely unfair to even claim those as the most likely outcomes. Using a hypothetical play-by-play where metagross and the rest of the team magically sustain no damage is absolutely ridiculous.
I don't understand. You completely dismiss my anecdotal claim, and then you proceed to make your own, completely lacking in detail or explanation other then "metagross is better than me even tho my team counter metagross." This is especially problematic because it was the basis of this entire section of argument...
I would claim that the differences between metagross and other top-tier threats as far as having checks and counters are negligible, and in some cases nonexistent. What exactly is switching into specs/life orb keldeo on an offensive team? Latis are typically the main answer, and those are quickly dealth with by an icy wind. Sure, you can play around keldeo by switching your talonflame in on a predicted secret sword, but the same holds true for handling metagross.
This is a complete understatement. As shown above, and as confirmed by you in regard to a number of the previously mentioned checks, Metagross has very few checks/counters that wouldn't already be on a team to begin with. Perhaps it cinches the decision between adding a landorus-t or an excadrill, but that is true about nearly every top-tier mon. If keldeo wasn't around to launch powerful water/fighting attacks, it wouldn't be neccesary to carry a lati on every team. Without clefable, you wouldn't need a heatran/bisharp/other steel. Without bisharp, keldeo wouldn't be such a neccesity.
The fact of the matter is that all of these mons shape your decisions in the teambuilder, and metagross is no different. Can you honestly say: "without metagross, I would be able to run ______."? Correct me if I am mistaken, but I honestly can't think of anything that would have its viability significantly changed.
Also suspect shadow tag. And wtf happened to evasion clause? If I lose to another sand veil chomp... What is even the point of having it not cover these abilities? brb, brightpowder on every mon.
Last edited:
I'm sorry, but Greninja being condemned is just depressing. I hate to sound like a filthy casual, but this one's hitting me where it hurts again.
MuhFugginMoose
Not ignoring MikeDawg's post, just wanted to point this out quick.
This is like saying that Azumarill is a counter to Keldeo (it's not) as long as it avoids a Scald burn. The meaning of hax in this definition is meant to cover something like a crit or 10% Thunderbolt para, not to ignore reasonably high probabilities. Rotom-W is a reasonably okay situational check, and the reason it's not a counter has nothing to do with the fact that it can be flinched by Zen Headbutt but more the fact that it's 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt after Stealth Rock damage. A lot of this has to do with the fact that a Zen Headbutt flinch is more of a last-ditch crutch and a bad play for the Metagross user considering the enormous risk involved and also that the chance in this particular scenario is far from in Metagross's favor. But, factoring something like the 20% chance Meteor Mash has to raise Attack is non-negligible in the long run and unwise to disregard if you want to consider something a consistent, long-term switch-in (aka a counter). Just though I'd clarify because this isn't being interpreted correctly.
Not ignoring MikeDawg's post, just wanted to point this out quick.
The problem with Metagross is Hammer Arm. Its Steel/Psychic STAB's are very easy to switch in to, but a Tough Claws boosted Hammer Arm is 133 Base Power, effectively giving Metagross a 'pseudo-STAB.' Suddenly, Fighting/Psychic/Steel hits the majority of the metagame really hard.
I also want to mention that Scizor cannot be classed as a counter, because Metagross can learn Fire Punch. Of course, you're giving up coverage but the last moveslot is open to whatever you want (although grass knot is probably the best option).
Edit: Apparently Metagross can't learn fire punch, derp.
I also want to mention that Scizor cannot be classed as a counter, because Metagross can learn Fire Punch. Of course, you're giving up coverage but the last moveslot is open to whatever you want (although grass knot is probably the best option).
Edit: Apparently Metagross can't learn fire punch, derp.
Last edited:
Jukain
Tagged the wrong person. :)
Metagross actually can't learn Fire Punch for whatever reason. So on that note, Mega Scizor can deal with it relatively reliably.
Tagged the wrong person. :)
Metagross actually can't learn Fire Punch for whatever reason. So on that note, Mega Scizor can deal with it relatively reliably.
It cant get fire punch. I just said this, either way its not a perfect counter because hammer arm still does a lot to non bulky scizor and all it can do back is SD and do some pretty meh damage with knock off
Well the damage from knock isnt meh, but still it's gonna have to take some punches before it can take gross out
It doesn't get pseudo stab on Hammer Arm. Without tough claws, Metagross would be entirely underwhelming without tough claws... That effectively gives it the pseudo life orb boost that it needs to be a competitive mega. Hammer arm is just like any other mon's coverage move, because its stabs are still relatively 1.5* more powerful
- Status