Fairy lost Mega Mawile because it threatened the majority of types and there was a minority that could deal with it. The point you're stating for mega sableye is a bit different- two monos seem to have no counters (although I have seen electric users deal with it by switching in a wall, forcing Sableye to switch out losing its boosts, then hitting hit hard with specs magnezone or one of the other strong special attackers on electric). Also, many of the sets that check/counter Mega Sableye aren't weird to run. They're sub attackers, special walls, boosting physicals...I mentioned all of this in my original post. People may have to sacrifice a fourth move on some physical attackers for Substitute or a Swords Dance, but it's not like they're running Dream Eater Gengar (heh name puns.) I do think you brought up a good point which should be considered though, as the monotype staff have a huge deal ahead of them...Mega Sableye WILL change the metagame, it's just a question of is the change too big?
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Fairy lost Mega Mawile because it threatened the majority of types and there was a minority that could deal with it. The point you're stating for mega sableye is a bit different- two monos seem to have no counters (although I have seen electric users deal with it by switching in a wall, forcing Sableye to switch out losing its boosts, then hitting hit hard with specs magnezone or one of the other strong special attackers on electric). Also, many of the sets that check/counter Mega Sableye aren't weird to run. They're sub attackers, special walls, boosting physicals...I mentioned all of this in my original post. People may have to sacrifice a fourth move on some physical attackers for Substitute or a Swords Dance, but it's not like they're running Dream Eater Gengar (heh name puns.) I do think you brought up a good point which should be considered though, as the monotype staff have a huge deal ahead of them...Mega Sableye WILL change the metagame, it's just a question of is the change too big?
I've said it before but I think I need to say it more clearly. None of us arguing for Mega Sableye to stay on Ghost teams believe it is broken. If we believed it was broken, we would admit it should be banned from both types. The debate we are having is IF Mega Sableye is broken on Ghost teams, not if a broken pokemon is ok to have in our metagame. Don't act like everyone agrees that it's broken and that we're just in denial. That's not how it is.
Also, it baffles me that Dark users think Umbreon is useless. I use it and it's amazing. I'd never make a Dark team without it. If a threat forces you to run a specific pokemon, but that pokemon is still viable anyway, then there is no way it's a valid argument to ban the threat. Umbreon is viable and I can't believe anyone is arguing against that.
Mega Sableye does give problems to other types, you know it's broken when it sweeps mine or mega p!ka's dark (Yes bringing up names). Thanks to it's bulk and calm mind and dazzling gleam coverage. I'm gonna speak about dark since I'm experienced with it, if I put sub on Bisharp I would lose either knock off/Sucker Punch/Iron Head/Sword dance and these moves ''helps'' my team to combat other types. I'm not gonna run a set specific for Mega sableye just to counter it and lose to other types, right now I'm running Crawdaunt for Mega Sableye. Also Mega Sableye's team mates would cripple my team before going to sableye (SR Sash Golurk w/ Dynamic Confuse Punch with the Will-o-Wisp everywhere and the choiced users.
There's two types of people actually, one type wants it banned on dark only and another type wants it banned on both, yea it's getting banned in Dark that obvious. Also it is already broken on dark and I think with some other users thinking that it is also broken on ghost that means it's broken in general in monotype. (Talking about two sided opinions)
Also most dark users wouldn't use umbreon in this meta unless someone is deciding to run a semi-stall semi-offensive team. Yea Umbreon act as a cleric but I don't see dark ''needing'' that cleric. Most dark users doesn't run Umbreon.
Ghost need an hero, but that's not the hero they need.
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As a person who dedicates to using many types, I'd actually say Mega Sableye is too powerful for either of its types. Dark is already a great type without it, yeah. But the thing is, Sableye is oppressive to defensive teams as well as having an impact on offensive ones. Against an offensive team you can just leave it unevolved and Will-O-Wisp the physical attackers, then recover, or even start your calm mind stacks without evolving immediately. That's a decent impact on the offensive teams. Defensive teams, however, struggle significantly the moment it evolves. In fact, in this match it can easily become more powerful after swapping out post-evolution. You can't even make hazard or crippling plays half of the time, which is what defensive teams love most. Sableye also cannot be tricked or taunted by most Pokemon. Also, I'd like to note that getting burnt is not the end of the world for Sableye by far, as that doesn't keep increasing in damage like toxic.
As for this quote:
♥Kammi: can you name a type that doesnt have access to a boosting physical attacker without at least a neutral move on sableye?
Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: ghost LOL // Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: wait no // Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: all types have a boosting attacker wtf
Things get banned because they're metagame centralizing. Every type has to run a check/counter to it, exampled by when Talonflame and Lucarionite got banned, or that type gets destroyed. That quote implies that every type should run a boosting physical attacker with a move that is at least neutral on Sableye. That sounds pretty centralizing to me. I actually have used, and still do enjoy using, ghost. However, Sableye is just more than ghost needs. Just because people can easily misplay something doesn't make it any less powerful, it just means they should practice with it more if they would like to make the correct choices. Additionally, why should some types have to give up a staple set to deal with it? Guts Heracross, Sub SD Bisharp, Sub Hawlucha, Toxic/Heal Bell Umbreon, Swords Dance Diggersby, Haze Articuno? Not every team can fit those, to be sure.
Then we have poison with its Destiny Bond Gengar that fails because you can just Will-O-Wisp stall, depending on Togekiss hax working enough to keep from getting burnt (assuming you didn't accidentally get para'd by the bounce)? Having to predict around the Aegislash in addition to the Sableye with Gardevoir, Stall-warring with Chansey (who, notably, cannot even touch one of your teammates that can threaten it back depending on which moves it runs), sacrificing an outrage-spammer and giving Aegislash an essentially free entry afterwords? Sacrificing a shell smasher to hopefully break through it? These aren't exactly stellar answers.
As for this quote:
♥Kammi: can you name a type that doesnt have access to a boosting physical attacker without at least a neutral move on sableye?
Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: ghost LOL // Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: wait no // Pk-Kaiser - Аԝау: all types have a boosting attacker wtf
Things get banned because they're metagame centralizing. Every type has to run a check/counter to it, exampled by when Talonflame and Lucarionite got banned, or that type gets destroyed. That quote implies that every type should run a boosting physical attacker with a move that is at least neutral on Sableye. That sounds pretty centralizing to me. I actually have used, and still do enjoy using, ghost. However, Sableye is just more than ghost needs. Just because people can easily misplay something doesn't make it any less powerful, it just means they should practice with it more if they would like to make the correct choices. Additionally, why should some types have to give up a staple set to deal with it? Guts Heracross, Sub SD Bisharp, Sub Hawlucha, Toxic/Heal Bell Umbreon, Swords Dance Diggersby, Haze Articuno? Not every team can fit those, to be sure.
Then we have poison with its Destiny Bond Gengar that fails because you can just Will-O-Wisp stall, depending on Togekiss hax working enough to keep from getting burnt (assuming you didn't accidentally get para'd by the bounce)? Having to predict around the Aegislash in addition to the Sableye with Gardevoir, Stall-warring with Chansey (who, notably, cannot even touch one of your teammates that can threaten it back depending on which moves it runs), sacrificing an outrage-spammer and giving Aegislash an essentially free entry afterwords? Sacrificing a shell smasher to hopefully break through it? These aren't exactly stellar answers.
So I asked what people in the monotype room think, and generally they agree with the ban:
So most people agree with a dark ban, and this even shows that ghost is split--A Tyke/New Revolution S/ChokolateThundah/DoW are unsure of a ban/don't believe it deserves a ban on ghost, while Akame and beppity agree that it is broken, and think it needs a ban on both types. Don't hate on me, I'm just passing on what other people think in this post o3o.
Akame PsyZen: Sableye-Mega is basically the most broken thing in mono
beppityboopbopTEST: MSab is stupidly good in p much every meta
beppityboopbopTEST: MSab is stupidly good in p much every meta
A Tyke: Mega-Sableye shouldn't be removed from dark
A Tyke: ghost*
A Tyke: dark can fuck it
A Tyke: ghost needs the love
New Revolution S: agreed
New Revolution S: Ghosts kind of finally have a "partial" answer to dark
A Tyke: ghost*
A Tyke: dark can fuck it
A Tyke: ghost needs the love
New Revolution S: agreed
New Revolution S: Ghosts kind of finally have a "partial" answer to dark
ChokolateThundah: no
ChokolateThundah: Ban
ChokolateThundah: It's amazing. but it can be coutnered
@Death on Wings: I'm convinced it needs a ban on Dark. I'm unconvinced on Ghost.
ChokolateThundah: Countered*
ChokolateThundah: DoW thats a good point
ChokolateThundah: Ban
ChokolateThundah: It's amazing. but it can be coutnered
@Death on Wings: I'm convinced it needs a ban on Dark. I'm unconvinced on Ghost.
ChokolateThundah: Countered*
ChokolateThundah: DoW thats a good point
So most people agree with a dark ban, and this even shows that ghost is split--A Tyke/New Revolution S/ChokolateThundah/DoW are unsure of a ban/don't believe it deserves a ban on ghost, while Akame and beppity agree that it is broken, and think it needs a ban on both types. Don't hate on me, I'm just passing on what other people think in this post o3o.
As one of the people being quoted, I have to say I'm not sure popular opinion is that important in this discussion. The reason I haven't posted an argument on this thread yet in terms of Sableye is that I don't have particularly good first-hand experience. The reason I'm convinced it needs a ban on dark is that I've heard very convincing arguments on this thread; similarly I'm unconvinced on Ghost simply because there doesn't seem to be a clear winner in that debate on this thread.
If 99 people think it needs a ban for no reason and one person thinks it shouldn't be banned for a good reason, it shouldn't be banned. Popular opinion may be moved by the good reason, however I don't think it's a reliable indicator of whether or not we should ban Sableye.
That said, from the arguments on this thread I can say that I think M-Sableye should be banned on Dark and Suspect Tested on Ghost.
With the recent discussion concerning Sableye-Mega, I don't find a more appropriate time to bring this up. After the Mawile-Mega Ban, Croven pointed out the rise in Usage of Pokemon that threaten Flying, effectively nerfing it indirectly. This was a case of knocking two birds out with one stone (or at least, damaging the wings of one of them lol), and had an unexpectedly larger net positive over a net negative than anticipated. And that is what must be considered when arguing for or against a Ban: does Banning a Pokemon do more damage to the Metagame that it does good? As I've said before, the purpose of a Banlist to my interpretation is to Balance the Metagame in terms of Viability; to make it to where each Type has as many Playstyles as possible and options to choose from in order to attract Usage. Naturally, certain Types will have dominance over others and would thus be more favored, but as long as the players have the option to use a Monotype Playstyle without resorting to gimmicks, the Metagame could theoretically be stable (according to my definition). This applies especially to Bans, because a Pokemon that is Banworthy will change the Meta being in it, and change it once it's removed from it. Such was the case with Mawile-Mega, as mentioned before. That said, when considering whether Sableye-Mega should be Banned or not, we should be sure to include theories (supported theories, ofc) of what Pokes could rise or fall in Usage, and analyze how that will effect the Metagame. And with the issue of Flying's dominance, I'd say focus on nerfing it indirectly.
I agree with your post just wanted to add to the second part--I also would never run Dark without Umbreon. First of all, it is Dark's best counter to Mega Sableye, as most run WoW/recover/cm/pulse, and it resists dark. Sure toxic gets bounced, but synchronize poisons Sableye too. Then you Heal Bell, and proceed to toxic stall it out. Heal Bell also assists in other matchups, such as if hydreigon is paralyzed, Bisharp is burned, or Mandibuzz or tyranitar are toxiced, and wish passing keeps them healthy. Again, this is also why it is so helpful to Sableye, and one of thebest supporters of mega Sableye on dark--and one of the main reasons it is borked on dark. On Ghost, I agree with Dow that a suspect test
While I've been relatively inactive in Monotype, deciding to try my hands at other tiers such as VGC, I just wanted to address the bolded part. You say here that the given answers aren't stellar answers to M-Sableye, which is true to some extent. However, they are still answers, and can most definitely beat Sableye if played correctly. You seem to be forgetting: this is Monotype, an OM which heavily restricts normal teambuilding and therefore most teams will not have "stellar answers" to top tier threats. Since when did every type get access to 100% counters to threats such as DD Altaria or Zard X? Or how about SD Bisharp or Crawdaunt? Many teams don't have an answer at all to threats such as these, at least in my experience. Much less a full blown counter.
People, just keep in mind that if a type can have a simple check to Sableye that can fit easily onto the team and is still very viable if Sableye were not in the picture, then that is probably the most you can afford to deal with Sableye, unless you are EXTREMELY afraid of running into a Dark or a Ghost mono. If we use a full counter to Sableye, then we leave ourselves open to many other threats in the tier. And this holds true for literally any threatening sweeper in Monotype, as I mentioned earlier. This trait is not special for Sableye.
Basically, in a tier such as Monotype, if you are expecting to have "stellar answers" to every single top tier threat, you are doing it wrong. It's simply not possible to do this. Trust me, I've tried with Flying, and it's a hell of a lot harder than you'd think. How difficult do you think it'd be for other, less fortunate types. Stop treating every single check as if it's garbage just for the reason that it's not a "stellar answer". If you truly believe that, Monotype is simply not the tier for you, I'm sorry.
Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. I'm neutral on Sableye as of now, since as I mentioned earlier, I've been relatively inactive. If I find the time and energy to ladder again with Dark or Ghost, and see what happens, I'll come back and discuss, but atm that's looking somewhat unlikely (VGC and OU are too appealing to me ;_;).
Alright, to be fair everything bolded is very common, maybe not the pokes themselves but the sets for sure. Diggersby is common in both aspects though. Articuno is rare, but that haze set is not just for sableye, as it is very good at stopping tons of calm mind sweeps (I'm looking at you Clefable!). If you don't believe me, this replay is incredibly recent and showcases my arguement (thank you whoever saved this lol).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200617149
I have yet to use Mega Sableye ony dark teams,(it doesn't appeal to me) but I just wanted to throw this out there.
After trying out a few matches as well ad watching some others, it's clear to me that unless the steel user misplays like crazy, Fairy 100% loses to steel. Megatron pretty much literally beats every single fairy 1v1 unless they do something crazy like sash counter or something. It is by far the single most unbalanced matchup in the metagame.
Are we actually ok with this? I know some matchups are rough by nature, but Fairy actually needs to have crippling overspecialization for steel to even stand a chance. I'm talking things like fire/fighting/ground moves on literally everyting, focus sashes, babri berries, slow defensive builds, borderline gimmicky sets, the whole nine yards here.
After trying out a few matches as well ad watching some others, it's clear to me that unless the steel user misplays like crazy, Fairy 100% loses to steel. Megatron pretty much literally beats every single fairy 1v1 unless they do something crazy like sash counter or something. It is by far the single most unbalanced matchup in the metagame.
Are we actually ok with this? I know some matchups are rough by nature, but Fairy actually needs to have crippling overspecialization for steel to even stand a chance. I'm talking things like fire/fighting/ground moves on literally everyting, focus sashes, babri berries, slow defensive builds, borderline gimmicky sets, the whole nine yards here.
I've only around for a few months, but if I may spread my opinion of on the mega sableye issue. I don't run dark or ghost hardly at all (I haven't even built a mono dark team before, and my ghost team is definitely pathetic), but I am against the ban. At least on ghost, I don't really see dark enough to tell. The only tournaments on showdown do occasionally give me access to players that are several times better than me, and from them and my part of the latter there are two pokemon that (I'm sure there are more, but two I'll talk about) function very similarly to mega sab in my opinion.
The first is snorlax. Specifically, my snorlax, the set I use on my normal team which I currently view as my main. Sab and lax both function as walls. I generally understand a wall to be something that does two things: 1. takes hits without dying 2. slowly kill things or slowly prepare to kill things very quickly. sab uses calm mind to perform the latter part of the second walling point. my lax does the exact same thing using curse. Where sab has wilo-wisp to reduce damage from physical attackers, I have Amnesia on lax to the same thing with special attackers. I typically then see recover on sab (the analog to lax's rest), but it can have a couple different useful moves in place of that or even wilo-wisp. They both then have a single attacking move: sab with dazzling gleam for coverage, and I run last resort because you can't argue with +6 attack last resort... unless your immune. So, sab would currently beat my lax one to one, but I can and have run a different attack to hit ghost types with. In that case I feel like lax would win hands down (I could be wrong). I just decided that the rest of my team could take on ghost, and snorlax just could dish out incredible damage to what he could hit. The main difference between the two is that snorlax doesn't have magic bounce. Magic bounce means you can't really taunt sableye which ruins lax. If hit with taunt before I setup, I literally can't do anything except switch or run down pp on last resort. So, Magic bounce probably make sab a little better at it's job than lax.
The second is Espeon. I don't use psychic and am not too familiar with espeon, but it seems to typically come equipped with calm mind and stored power. I think it can learn wish and probably then has protect, but I'm not certain. It is less of a wall than my lax and sab as it doesn't seem to have a good answer to physical threats (by itself), but stored power is a special attack that has increasing base power with it's stat boost. Add the base power and special attack increase together and you get a great sweep attack. All while increasing it's ability as a special wall. And like sab, espeon has magic bounce, so you can't taunt it to prevent setup. Espeon is lacking in the area of immunities, and stored power is a psychic move meaning dark is immune to it. This means sableye would again win a one to one match up, but espeon has to have a good cover move against dark. If nothing else, any good psychic team will have an answer to dark types; gallade and gardevoir (mega or not) both seem to fill this role very well.
I point those two out because the main complaint to mega-sableye seems to be that the fact that people build counters or checks to just it means he's disturbing the meta in ways that it shouldn't. But sab is not the only one. He just seems to be the most abused and possibly best one, and I'm of the opinion that he's not that much better. Snorlax and Espeon obvious don't disturb the meta to the point of being banned, and I don't see why you would think sableye does just because he is a little bit better at what they all do.
In response to Narset about the boosting physical attacker thing. Should every team run a boosting attacker? Probably, either physical or special if not both, there are threats from both sides. Should every team have an attacker that deals at least neutral damage to sableye? Definitely, users should be trying to build teams that can dish out at least neutral damage to anything that's thrown at them. If someone or several people choose to compound those two to deal with the likes of sableye, so be it.
Mega sableye is annoying, but so is the choice scarf. Annoying is not a good reason to ban something, and that's currently the only one I see being brought up against sableye. Sab is annoying to deal with for some teams just like some types are annoying for other type to deal with as a whole.
The first is snorlax. Specifically, my snorlax, the set I use on my normal team which I currently view as my main. Sab and lax both function as walls. I generally understand a wall to be something that does two things: 1. takes hits without dying 2. slowly kill things or slowly prepare to kill things very quickly. sab uses calm mind to perform the latter part of the second walling point. my lax does the exact same thing using curse. Where sab has wilo-wisp to reduce damage from physical attackers, I have Amnesia on lax to the same thing with special attackers. I typically then see recover on sab (the analog to lax's rest), but it can have a couple different useful moves in place of that or even wilo-wisp. They both then have a single attacking move: sab with dazzling gleam for coverage, and I run last resort because you can't argue with +6 attack last resort... unless your immune. So, sab would currently beat my lax one to one, but I can and have run a different attack to hit ghost types with. In that case I feel like lax would win hands down (I could be wrong). I just decided that the rest of my team could take on ghost, and snorlax just could dish out incredible damage to what he could hit. The main difference between the two is that snorlax doesn't have magic bounce. Magic bounce means you can't really taunt sableye which ruins lax. If hit with taunt before I setup, I literally can't do anything except switch or run down pp on last resort. So, Magic bounce probably make sab a little better at it's job than lax.
The second is Espeon. I don't use psychic and am not too familiar with espeon, but it seems to typically come equipped with calm mind and stored power. I think it can learn wish and probably then has protect, but I'm not certain. It is less of a wall than my lax and sab as it doesn't seem to have a good answer to physical threats (by itself), but stored power is a special attack that has increasing base power with it's stat boost. Add the base power and special attack increase together and you get a great sweep attack. All while increasing it's ability as a special wall. And like sab, espeon has magic bounce, so you can't taunt it to prevent setup. Espeon is lacking in the area of immunities, and stored power is a psychic move meaning dark is immune to it. This means sableye would again win a one to one match up, but espeon has to have a good cover move against dark. If nothing else, any good psychic team will have an answer to dark types; gallade and gardevoir (mega or not) both seem to fill this role very well.
I point those two out because the main complaint to mega-sableye seems to be that the fact that people build counters or checks to just it means he's disturbing the meta in ways that it shouldn't. But sab is not the only one. He just seems to be the most abused and possibly best one, and I'm of the opinion that he's not that much better. Snorlax and Espeon obvious don't disturb the meta to the point of being banned, and I don't see why you would think sableye does just because he is a little bit better at what they all do.
In response to Narset about the boosting physical attacker thing. Should every team run a boosting attacker? Probably, either physical or special if not both, there are threats from both sides. Should every team have an attacker that deals at least neutral damage to sableye? Definitely, users should be trying to build teams that can dish out at least neutral damage to anything that's thrown at them. If someone or several people choose to compound those two to deal with the likes of sableye, so be it.
Mega sableye is annoying, but so is the choice scarf. Annoying is not a good reason to ban something, and that's currently the only one I see being brought up against sableye. Sab is annoying to deal with for some teams just like some types are annoying for other type to deal with as a whole.
Ok I see what you're trying to say here and I respect that. However you build a team so that you can hit the majority of the metagame with 6 Pokemon (barring some walls and support mons). And sometimes that means leaving out other mons who could help against say 1 or 2 threats for the one who can hit 4 or 5. No team is ever going to be able to have perfect coverage against so many other types unless you run HO which it not practical.
Also you may use 1 Pokemon to cover 2 threats on one team. This means that if the mon gets KO'd or crippled while trying to take down the first one then that may leave you open to be swept or walled. I will admit that it may not be the best example but not all of us are top tier players, and hax can happen at anywhere at any time...
We also must remember to give a voice to some of the lower ladder players who may struggle with some of the top tier threats
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Dream Eater Gengar said:
Alright, so before Mega-Sableye came out, I actually used a set somewhat similar. It was the exact same as the current Mega set, except instead of an attack it ran taunt. This set walled the shit out rock and electric, the only main difference between being Mega that you no longer need to predict when your taunts are necessary, and you can't stop the opponent from recovering/boosting/defogging. Banning Sablenite really wouldn't be able to stop a sweep like that from happening. I realize that few people probably run that set, however I think its relevant to note that those types lack of a counter to Sableye even in a non-mega form. Just because of the nature of the metagame, some types will always suffer more than others.
Dream Eater Gengar said:
So part of my thing was that after Sableye Mega Evolves, switching out puts it a major disadvantage. At this point you'd be taking hazard damage, leaving with any other damage you took and no priority recovery or boosting. As for ghost's elemental core, it's far from unbeatable. I would like to make a bit of an analogy with the "Generic Bulky Flying" defensive core, I.E: Gliscor, Zapdos, Bulky Char-X, and Togekiss. Pretend Gliscor is Sableye dodging a scald. An option would be to go into Togekiss, tank the scald, heal bell off any burns, and paraflinch Keldeo to death. An Ice/Fire attack would mean a switch to Char-X, etc... Do we ban Gliscor because its part of a core that can back it up? Glisor can't set-up sweep like Sableye can, however they share some characteristics, most notably immunity to status and notable defensive bulk. Most physical attackers wouldn't be able to just force Gliscor out, it would take a special attacker or a booster. They switch, you switch, it goes on. If you're going to break the core, you're going to need to make a predict for both flying and ghost. Does having to predict make it broken? One last thing I'd like to note before moving on is, unlike flying, Ghost has no access to rapid spin or defog other than Drifblim, and no access to Heal Bell other than Mismagius, neither of which are very viable. Basically, they can't switch indefinitely if you have your hazards up.
With the Wisp thing, if you see the Sableye, you probably want to save whatever it is from being burned. It isn't like you're locked in or forced to take the wisp, you can switch out. That being said, I think that saving your "counter" to Sableye from being burned is as bad as having to save a special attacker to take out a Skarmory.
As for the running specific pokemon to deal, I already wrote "I will admit, some of these counters aren’t exactly the most viable, but a majority of them are valid. If you are getting swept battle after battle by Ghost teams (Which is statistically unlikely due to the solid 2.32% of users running it), then consider running them. If your team can’t afford to be changed, well that’s a decision you’ve made but it doesn’t make Sableye-Mega the culprit." I'd rather just have a response to that than try to readdress it.
BlackShwan said:
Alright, check sounds a lot better, thanks for the recommendation. The Mega-Sableye set I'm referring to doesn't run confuse ray, otherwise it would have to drop recovery, attacking, burning or boosting, which are all part of what makes it so powerful. All the Physical attackers I listed are there because they kill regardless of burns on the second turn, or they have guts/a way to prevent the burn. All of the checks listed are based on the assumption that you've switched immediately after Sableye has come in, meaning they have one calm mind up maximum("Sableye has Mega-Evolved and has set up a Calm Mind. I see no better way than to list a response for each type. ") If you're just sitting around letting it set up, then that's on you.
As much as I agree with Steel being incredibly hard for Fairy, and that there are some other match-ups that are one-sided, I feel we can't do much about it. How do you think Fairy should deal with Steel without using gimmick sets? By unbanning Mega Mawile
P.S. You seem to mention Megatron a lot. What IS Megatron? I mean I know it's a Transformer, but what Pokemon is it?
As for this, I feel that both Pokemon are a tad bit uncommon.
Snorlax is the best one you've brought up. It's sort of similar to Mega Sableye, in the sense that you brought up, and you at least mentioned the fact that no Magic Bounce hurts it. The problem here is that Rest is also easily played around. Running Amnesia also means sacrificing Curse or Sleep Talk. However, not running Amnesia means you're wide open for special attackers. Then there's the problem of Snorlax being a bit overshadowed by Diggersby. I know that Snorlax is more of a set-up Pokemon and Diggersby is more of a hit-straight-away-and-do-massive-damage Pokemon, but Diggersby also has bulk. So as much as I like Snorlax, its uncommonness makes it not too much of a threat compared to Mega Sableye, which is a Pokemon that is run a lot.
Espeon suffers from lesser-used syndrome as well. Espeon may be strong on the special side, but it's really weak on the physical side. Further more, it's once again, overshadowed. This time by Mega Latias. This is due to better recovery, and better stats. Espeon also has better sets to use anyways like the screens set. And while Espeon has Magic Bounce, it doesn't use it as well as Mega Sableye since it's still lacking in bulk.
Mega Sableye is used for its great bulk and both offensive AND defensive presence. And while Snorlax achieves this a little, Mega Sableye does it better. While Snorlax is unneeded on a Normal team, Sableye(or at least, normal old Sableye) is used quite a bit and helps the Mono a lot as well. The reason people are debating Mega Sableye is because it has a better typing than either Espeon and Snorlax, ability to cripple, and its overall presence in the meta.
So far, I'm neutral to this matter, because I haven't used Ghost and Dark a whole lot. From my experiences with playing against it, it's a major annoyance, but I can usually get past it. I still need to test it out as a person with Mega Sableye. Overall though, I'm indifferent about what happens to Mega Sableye.
Megatron = Mega Metagross.
Honestly, that's actually the first place I'd start looking to. Neither psychic nor steel truly needs him, and his presence alone nearly invalidates Fairy as a type. He packs enough of a punch to nearly ohko every single fairy unless they run babri berries, and he has enough bulk where the ones that live to tell the tale can't really retaliate without gimmicks that make them less effective overall. I didn't think it was as bad as it was until I actually started playing and running calcs. Even Azumarill needs a BD, Waterfall AND rocks up to have a shot at taking him down, and if he's already used BD + sitrus, he dies to Thunder Punch which takes off some 90% of his health.
That's just ONE mon, who is usually backed up by power hitters like Bisharp, Excadrill, Scizor, Heatran, and worst of all, Steel can use Fairy's own Klefki against them.
This is Talonflame tier wrecking we're talking here and actually worse because they can't even really reliably revenge kill it
EDIT: I'm at work and on my phone right now, but I just ran calcs. Using standard builds, there are literally THREE fairies that are NOT OHKO'd by Megatron (Klefki, Mawile, and Granbull), and none that aren't 2HKO'd. Of all of those Klefki can do the most back by foul play which does a little less than hald, which means he first has to be running the move and then had to rely on parahax to not die
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I agree with what most of what you say here and you make a very good point. If you do let it set up to ridiculous heights then I definitely agree, it's all on you. But if M-Sableye can get a clean switch in, then switching out against it isn't always the best idea due to it either setting up, crippling a switch in or straight out attacking which, depending on the previous damage the switch in has taken, could KO..
To be brutally honest against myself though I don't have a heap of experience with or against M-Sableye relying on a few previous encounters and many replays to share my point of view. Overall though I am fairly neutral on a full ban of M-Sableye seeing both reasons to keep and ban it.
But I do agree with a statement that DEG have earlier. Ghost does need something/s to move it from being one of the lesser used monos to a top tier threat but I feel that Mega Sableye may be just a little unbalanced to be the one who does it.
But then that itself poses another problem... If Mega Sableye does get a full ban, who on Ghost will be there to take it's place??? It's too late at night for me to try and wrack my brain to think of one but tbh I don't think there are many, at least none as effective as M-Sableye anyway
Sorry, but I disagree with you. Snorlax does have a neat looking set, but chances are they will only lose one Pokemon to Last Resort, then switch to their ghost type (fire has chandy, water jelli, Grass trev/gourgeist, dark sableye, steel sometimes uses doublade, etc.) and steel/rock resist it and most are naturally bulky. Also, it needs to set up to be a threat, and it can be outsped by stuff. It also hates physical fighting moves before it sets up a few curses. Also, Last Resort is sorta gimmicky, as you need to use all of your moves, and sometimes Snorlax can't tank 3 hits. The factthat it is completely walled by one type (and almost completely walled by 2 others) makes it sorta unviable in mono where every type is usable (even if ghost is used less than most teams). The turns it rests on make it set up bait, as something can set up twice then kill it on the turn it wakes up. It also doesn't have access to 2 of the best abilities in the game in prankster and magic bounce, meaning it can be taunted, phased, and statused (I know rest cures it, but burns make last resort do less, and the chip damage could kill it). It can also be encored into one of its set up moves by shuckle/whimsicott. Sableye on the other hand, cripples physical attackers and sets up, all with priority. Then it can Mega Evolve, become immune to phasing moves/status/taunt/encore, and proceed to sweep with a STAB with no immunities. It also can't be choice tricked, while Snorlax is absolutely wrecked by choice items, rendering it completely unable to do anything except struggle. So, while my tired mind is considering this I have found many ways to efficiently counter Snorlax: Whimsicott, Ferrothorn, every ghost type ever, taunt, trick, encore, whirlwind/roar, hitting it with a fighting move before it sets up (preferably physical, but special would work too, as it needs to set up to wall stuff), and it doesn't have the best support on normal. Sure it gets Heal Bell/Wish support, but normal teams are generally stally, and so doesn't get the offensive support Mega Sableye gets. Mega Sableye on the other hand, is only efficiently walled by Umbreon, and maybe Gardevoir too (but Garde must get burned for synchronize to work), as well as other set up sweepers if you bring it in before they are eliminated (such as Volcarona, Azumarill, Mega Diancie, Zard X, etc.) but Sableye has teammates that can handle all of these (Mandibuzz/tyranitar/Bisharp) allowing it to sit back, then come in and sweep late game once it's threats are eliminated. So, I would say that yes, there is a huge difference between Mega Sableye and Snorlax, especially the Snorlax set you posted. While I can see how it can be amazing, it is walled by so many common Pokemon/moves, including a whole type, and pretty much 2 others.
Espeon is once again walled by a whole type, and has no way to deal with strong physical attacks. Bisharp walls that set so hard its not even funny, can get a SD while you switch, and wreck at least a couple of Pokemon before it dies, or possibly sweep the whole team with Knock Off/Sucker Punch. Btw, it does get wish and protect, and it took me about 12 seconds to figure that out (Google ftw). Yes it gets Magic Bounce but there is a better way to use that: as a supporter. Being immune to taunt/defog/encore is what gives it its main niche: a fast screens setter. With light clay/magic bounce/light screen/reflect/Wish/protect, it is a tremendous supporting pokemon that avoids hazards being set (if you predict right) prevents screens from being defogged, and provides wish support to teammates. If you want a Calm Mind/Stored Power user, use Mega Latias imo, as it is bulkier and has unimmune STAB coverage, with excellent other options for coverage and many viable sets, making it unpredictable.
To conclude, Snorlax and Espeon are nowhere near as good as Mega Sableye, as they lack both priority setup/crippling, and a way to deal with strong physical attacks before they set up (and Espeon never has a way). They also lack a STAB with no immunities, meaning they are completely walled by a certain type, and struggle against others, no matter how much they boost. These Pokemon can be effective, but the sets you posted are gimmicky and sorta niche. I know I sound really harsh (probably anyway), and I'm sorry, but Mega Sableye is much better than these Pokemon and is possibly the most broken Pokemon in mono right now (especially on dark). And, like I said earlier, Snorlax is rekted by loads of status moves, including taunt, trick, encore, etc. Also, a couple things I forgot to mention, Snorlax can also be worn down through Leech Seedl, and Sableye also has 3 immunities and only 1 weakness and 1 resistance, as compared to 1 immunity, and 1 weakness and 0 resistances (Snorlax) or 0 immunities, 3 weaknesses, and 2 resistances (Espeon). Plain typing for these two also doesn't really help their monotypes--they are weak to the same moves as their teammates, while Sableye has tremendous typing. So, Mega Sableye is a lot better at what it does than Espeon/Snorlax and these aren't valid comparisons, especially as those aren't even their most common sets (or their best sets imo).
EDIT: Gdi Gnief Fiar with snipes <.<
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To tell the truth, Schwan, ghost is the only type with something banned from OU and one of our own suspects. If Greninja gets banned in OU then that'll add dark too, but the Mega Sableye ban on dark is looking pretty inevitable. I don't see ghost needing Mega Sableye to function as a viable type in this metagame, it worked without it before, especially upon re-obtaining Aegislash. In fact, ghost would be the only type with two Pokemon that were found to be too powerful on their other type. If not for the presence of Aegislash on ghost I'd actually say to leave Mega Sableye there. However, I don't think they need both.
Aegislash and Mega Sableye play very different roles. I don't think "you can do without this pokemon because you already have this other one" is a viable argument in this case. Mega Sab is a physical wall and currently the only thing on ghost that can take a strong knock off- even though ghost functioned without it before, it was a subpar type. I believe Mega Sableye brings ghost up to standard without making it extremely overpowered; as we've said before, Mega Sableye *is* able to be defeated by boosting physical attackers, anything that forces a switch, guts and moldbreaker pokemon, and substitute, to name a few. Due to ghost's inability to keep switching back and forth without taking major damage, and the lack of a hazard setter if you're running the element core (Gourgeist often subs for Golurk) and therefore the opponent's ability to switch safely, it's definitely not an impossible type to beat. A misprediction by the ghost user also wrecks Mega Sableye, and I think it's fair to say that no game is perfectly played and especially at high ladder, it's easy to mispredict your opponent.
For example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200685344 (I thought I played this rather well- kudos to Arken)
From some preliminary testing, I'm really on the fence about mega sableye. For the time being, I'm leaning toward no ban though. Sableye seems to be a high risk high reward kind of thing. You can't play it recklessly like some other broken or even potentially broken mons like Kyurem W, Mega Gengar, or stuff like that. There's actually a boatton of crap that he just outright loses to. It feels like you either need to support it with hazards or screens or junk like that, or otherwise carefully pick and choose your battles. The neat thing about it is that you can play mind games cause you don't need to mega mode right out of the gate. Opposing boosting sweepers are definitely an issue though.
I'll play more matches tomorrow when I'm off work, but I really feel like this is one of those specialist mons that merely rewards skilled players. I'm still open to arguments from either side, and more replays too, but for now, I'm just not seeing the so called brokenness.
I'll play more matches tomorrow when I'm off work, but I really feel like this is one of those specialist mons that merely rewards skilled players. I'm still open to arguments from either side, and more replays too, but for now, I'm just not seeing the so called brokenness.
To be honest, up until reading this I had never considered Megagross for a ban, but you make some good points. Our first ban as a metagame was Talonflame and our reasoning was basically because it made Grass, Fighting, and Bug unviable types to use. If Mega Metagross is THAT big of a threat to Fairy teams, then I might actually support a Mega Metagross suspect. If it does get suspected, it probably won't happen for a while considering we have other threats that we're discussing at the moment, but I do admit that if Mega Metagross is the primary reason why Fairy struggles so much against Steel, then it should at least be given a suspect.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-200803981 This is a replay of me using grass to beat a Mega Sableye (Ghost) and is one of the reasons why I think it is not broken on ghost. I beat it, and I've only used grass for 3.5 games. Admittedly, he probably wasn't the best user of Mega Sableye, and was a pretty poor loser, but it is really easy to use Mega Sableye. Also shows the fact that it can be worn down through indirect status, as Ghost doesn't have a viable Heal Beller.
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★Dan phantom:your one of those people who use cheep tactics and legends to get wins
If anything this replay was in support of banning Skymin, but given the extremely low quality I wouldn't say it's in favour of anything honestly. There wasn't even an aegislash on that team, and he seemed to think Gengar was too fast for scarf to be a usable item on it. Sableye is not unbeatable, if it were it would already be banned. It's simply that a good player using mega sableye well has a very good chance of winning, which is a completely different thing.
The player is not the Pokemon. Anyone can misplay anything, even Arceus.
I didn't even imply similar roles from the two. They do both contribute to breaking a number of defensive cores with disgusting ease if played right, but that's as far as the similarities go. I just feel that two Pokemon too powerful to be used on their other types don't need to share a team.
Ghost does have Mismagius for Heal Bell, and it can do that job well when used properly, especially with how it has levitate to pair with Aegislash and Will-O-Wisp to work with for bulk, which complements its great speed tier for a defensive Pokemon. Its just not a popular option, is all, because it lacks Recover and its bulk is still poor after the burn. Your opponent's plays were painful to watch, by the way.
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