Resource ORAS OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers (Read the OP First!)

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Kaiketsu said:
Is cleric Vaporeon (wish/healbell/sub/baton pass maybe? kinda weird without any offense, maybe I should drop something for scald) is a decent idea of support for Mega Metagross?

if not, what other cleric would you recommend?
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He's 'ok' because of his high HP stat but there's better clerics for the job. Sylveon hits harder than Vaporeon and is better at taking Special attacks. Clefable is a tankier cleric and is great against setup sweepers if you run her with Unaware. If your team is ok with having a very passive 'mon then you can take Chansey or Blissey (Chansey is better).

Edit: It should also be noted that Clefable and Chansey have access to immediate recovery in Soft-boiled for Clefable with Magic Guard and Chansey and Moonlight for Unaware Clefable. Wish/Protect is also viable but you should take the immediate recovery into account.
 
Why Chansey is better than Blissey right now?
I think in BW is the opposite and now knock off is everywhere.
Sry for bad gramma.
 
Chansey is better than blissey due to eviolite giving it a lot more bulk. If you see your opponent has knock off, don't leave chansey in on it.
 
Blissey was better in BW because Sand(and lol hail) was a thing and (Toxic)Spikes stacking was really common. That made Lefties much more useful than Eviolite, but now dedicated Spikes stacking teams are really rare, and the passive recovery is no longer worth it as Chansey just has more bulk in general, especially on the physical side. Knock off is everywhere but Chansey can obviously switch out and avoid it, as most teams utilizing Chansey have a knock off absorber, especially many megas. Plus SR was still somewhat hard to remove with only Rapid Spin, so yeah all the passive damage really hindered Chansey.
 
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Here's a comparison in the difference between Blissey's and Chansey's bulk;

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 177-211 (27.1 - 32.3%) -- 54.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 142-168 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 5.4% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 308-364 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 226-266 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even taking leftovers into account, Chansey can still take special attacks just slightly better, and it takes physical attacks much better.

And most Knock Off users are physical attackers. However, Chansey is specialized for taking special hits anyway. They're usually pokemon you want to swap out of, regardless of if you're Chansey or Blissey.
 
To max out both defenses do I invest EVs in HP, Def or SpD? (assume I don't need to reach any benchmarks to survive stuff, just want to max out the defenses in general) I notice some prefer Def like Chansey and some prefer HP like Ferrothorn. What's the specific rule here?
 
HP increases general bulk (your HP stat), while investing in defenses increase the stat of your defenses.
If you just want to max out the stats of both of your defenses, run 252 special defense and 252 defense, although that's not always a good idea, and is only seen on stuff that is really really bulky like chansey.
 
Lediator said:
To max out both defenses do I invest EVs in HP, Def or SpD? (assume I don't need to reach any benchmarks to survive stuff, just want to max out the defenses in general) I notice some prefer Def like Chansey and some prefer HP like Ferrothorn. What's the specific rule here?
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It's almost always max HP and then adding to the highest defense stat. Some walls, like Ferrothorn, go mixed to take on certain theats but that's often more team specfic. Some others invest in a lower defense stat (and I mean noticably lower, lIke more than 20 points different) because their typing lends itself to handling physical or special types easier.

Chansey itself is an interesting case for a few reasons. One, it's gigantic HP stat let's it invest in it's defense and special defense more (fully of it wants to). Two, the Eviolite increases only defense, so the investment there pays back more. Third, it can afford to do a max HP / max Defense investment because it's Special Defense is already decent enoigh and it needs physical bulk so it can take on some mixed attackers better and generally survive some weaker physical hits.
 
Celticpride said:
It's almost always max HP and then adding to the highest defense stat. Some walls, like Ferrothorn, go mixed to take on certain theats but that's often more team specfic. Some others invest in a lower defense stat (and I mean noticably lower, lIke more than 20 points different) because their typing lends itself to handling physical or special types easier.

Chansey itself is an interesting case for a few reasons. One, it's gigantic HP stat let's it invest in it's defense and special defense more (fully of it wants to). Two, the Eviolite increases only defense, so the investment there pays back more. Third, it can afford to do a max HP / max Defense investment because it's Special Defense is already decent enoigh and it needs physical bulk so it can take on some mixed attackers better and generally survive some weaker physical hits.
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Well I asked for a specific rule so almost always max HP doesn't really say much.. also you say an exception like Chansey is because of "gigantic HP".... how do you draw the line as to whether a pokemon's HP is gigantic or not?

I guess what I mean is if there's a rule to allocating EVs to take minimal % damage from a physical & special attack coming from a Pokemon with equal Atk and SpA stats.
 
Lediator said:
Well I asked for a specific rule so almost always max HP doesn't really say much.. also you say an exception like Chansey is because of "gigantic HP".... how do you draw the line as to whether a pokemon's HP is gigantic or not?

I guess what I mean by max out both defenses is to take minimal % damage from a physical & special attack coming from the same Pokemon with equal Atk and SpA stats.
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Well... there really isn't a specific rule. It's a case by case basis really, but a great portion are max HP and max Defense / Special Defense. Chansey's HP stat is 50 higher than the next highest (Wobbuffet), and almost 85 higher than the next common defensive Pokemon (Alomomola). It's a significant enough difference that pretty much everything below it always invests in HP, while Chansey can get away with not doing that. Again, some of that goes back to the Eviolite multiplying it's defense stats.

You can always split the EVs even if you want to, however that's not usually reccomended. Sure, you can tune a defensive cornerstone to be a mixed wall, but it's better to carry a wall invested in physical defense and one in special defense. Then they have the bulk required to take one specific threats.
 
Lediator said:
Well I asked for a specific rule so almost always max HP doesn't really say much.. also you say an exception like Chansey is because of "gigantic HP".... how do you draw the line as to whether a pokemon's HP is gigantic or not?

I guess what I mean is if there's a rule to allocating EVs to take minimal % damage from a physical & special attack coming from a Pokemon with equal Atk and SpA stats.
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You get away depending on the benefits of HP > Defense stats or Defense Stats > HP depending on the specific mon. For example let's take AV Conkeldurr for example. You would want to put the EVs into Special Defense > HP because one of Conkeldurr's best traits is to pivot into Thundurus and Gengar a little bit easier while the HP addition is minuscule over adding a much more useful Special Defense stat due to AV. Then you have stuff like Ferrothorn where you would want to allocate the HP first and foremost to even out its defensive spectrum and have a choice in the remaining EVs. Stuff like Chansey, Blissey, and Alomomola is different in that their HP stat is so high that in most cases it's better to just go with both defenses however you would still take into account what threatens your team and what you want them to wall better. It's not unheard of for these last three to use HP EVs but normally they build on their defenses first and then the HP. All in all it's a case by case thing. The Ferrothorn example is a good rule of them for your generic walls that appreciate the Defenses but don't have an enormous amount of HP on the level of Chansey.
 
AM said:
You get away depending on the benefits of HP > Defense stats or Defense Stats > HP depending on the specific mon. For example let's take AV Conkeldurr for example. You would want to put the EVs into Special Defense > HP because one of Conkeldurr's best traits is to pivot into Thundurus and Gengar a little bit easier while the HP addition is minuscule over adding a much more useful Special Defense stat due to AV. Then you have stuff like Ferrothorn where you would want to allocate the HP first and foremost to even out its defensive spectrum and have a choice in the remaining EVs. Stuff like Chansey, Blissey, and Alomomola is different in that their HP stat is so high that in most cases it's better to just go with both defenses however you would still take into account what threatens your team and what you want them to wall better. It's not unheard of for these last three to use HP EVs but normally they build on their defenses first and then the HP. All in all it's a case by case thing. The Ferrothorn example is a good rule of them for your generic walls that appreciate the Defenses but don't have an enormous amount of HP on the level of Chansey.
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Nevermind conkeldurr since in that case it only wants to be specially defensive, actually nevermind any benchmarks or checks/counters (I'm only interested understanding how EVs affect damage calcs).

The pink mons have high HP stat so it's more economical to invest in defense stats rather than HP... again, how do you determine if an HP stat is too high? You say Alomomola's HP stat is "so high that in most cases it's better to just go with both defenses", while Ferrothorn doesn't "have an enormous amount of HP on the level of Chansey" - fair enough, so when do you draw the line and say "ok, 1 more point in base HP and this mon is better off investing in defenses rather than HP"?
 
Lediator said:
Nevermind conkeldurr since in that case it only wants to be specially defensive, actually nevermind any benchmarks or checks/counters (I'm only interested understanding how EVs affect damage calcs).

The pink mons have high HP stat so it's more economical to invest in defense stats rather than HP... again, how do you determine if an HP stat is too high? You say Alomomola's HP stat is "so high that in most cases it's better to just go with both defenses", while Ferrothorn doesn't "have an enormous amount of HP on the level of Chansey" - fair enough, so when do you draw the line and say "ok, 1 more point in base HP and this mon is better off investing in defenses rather than HP"?
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Calcs, testing, these are usually how you find out the benchmarks. You basically take into account where it would be best to allocate the EVs so that you can wall as many threats for the team efficiently as possible. It's more along the lines of generalizations tbh and in most cases OU analysis will define these benchmarks that are more suitable in a much more broad sense. Once you understand the intricacies in a more in-depth perspective you can basically just get a calc going and see what spread suits you the best.

As far as the high HP mons go in the case of Chansey through the use of Eviolite they gain a 50% increase in defenses. As such investment in defenses will take into account that multiplier while if you invested in HP the multiplier of Eviolite wouldn't take place. So in that particular case you're adding more bulk through putting EVs into the defenses in a broader sense than when you would just do HP and a defense. So again this is a case by case thing really.
 
Roylund said:
He's 'ok' because of his high HP stat but there's better clerics for the job. Sylveon hits harder than Vaporeon and is better at taking Special attacks. Clefable is a tankier cleric and is great against setup sweepers if you run her with Unaware.
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This is something I don't fully understand. Even if Clefable ignores their dragon dances and such, it's still a pokemon with very meh stats and usually a single stab move of moonbeam. How is he expected to outlast stuff like 130-140 attack/spattack pokemon with 100-120 BP moves?

As for Vaporeon, is baton passing those 130hp subs still a viable tactic? How good are "full support" pkmn without an offensive move (in this case wish/batonpass/sub/healbell ?)
 
Sanger Zonvolt said:
Just to add to this, the general philosphy of the simulator is that if a pokemon is obtainable, it is usable. So, while the odds of catching a perfect IV Landorus is certainly low, because it is possible without hacking or cheats, it is usable. This is why we have so many legendaries used on the simulator with perfect IVs despite them being hard to catch in-game.
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It's also worth noting that (at least with XY, have no clue if they kept it this way for ORAS) the IVs of story/legendary pokemon obtained in 6th gen tend to have been somewhat optimized, at least so far as IVs and possibly natures are concerned. Getting 3 or more perfect IVs isn't difficult, with the remaining ones typically being quite high as well, and most pokemon only REALLY need around 3 to perform all the major functions of their roll adequately (assuming they're not in need of Hidden Power, obviously).

Additionally, the ability to pokegen anything from 5th gen and prior definitely helps.

That said, theory regarding competitive play, as well as smogon/showdown itself, only typically concern the most optimal legally achievable stat combinations. So even if a perfect pokemon might be difficult to obtain, it's irrelevant to any theoretical discussion, and doubly so to the simulators. After all, we still use Wish Chansey.
 
Kaiketsu said:
This is something I don't fully understand. Even if Clefable ignores their dragon dances and such, it's still a pokemon with very meh stats and usually a single stab move of moonbeam. How is he expected to outlast stuff like 130-140 attack/spattack pokemon with 100-120 BP moves?

As for Vaporeon, is baton passing those 130hp subs still a viable tactic? How good are "full support" pkmn without an offensive move (in this case wish/batonpass/sub/healbell ?)
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Clefable's bulk is good if you invest in HP fully and then mostly into Def followed by SpDef.

Setting up subs and passing them with Vaporeon is easier said than done: you'd have to be up against a really passive wall to set them up and pass them since you kill your momentum. There's better options for passing stuff, mostly offensive passers like Scolipede or even Venomoth or Geomancy Smeargle that requires plenty pf team support but pays off really well if you do it right.

Having a Pokemon without attacking moves is not usually good (Chansey takes Seismic Toss, Clef runs Moonblast, Scolipede runs Megahorn or Pin Missile, Smeargle goes attackless because his strategy is very specific) because if you get Taunted then you have to switch.

If you want to run SubPass Vaporeon it's up to you. It requires quite some team support and is hard to find opportunities to set up. I favor offensive playstyles so I'm biased towards the offensive passers but if you think your team will greatly benefit from beefy subs then don't do it still because passing x2 Attack and x1.5 Speed and possibly x2 Defense or Quiver Dance stats is easier to do and pays off heavier than a 130 HP sub.
 
I see. Thanks a lot. I'll scratch the sub-pass then.

I still fail to understand what makes Clefable better than Vaporeon for being a cleric. Vaporeon has much more HP plus a decent spdef. I know his Def is kinda weak, but the huge HP pool and 256 def EV should help out. For special attacks, it's way more bulky. The typing is great with only two weaknesses which are rarely STAB-bed (except maybe Zapdos). It's also slightly faster and hits much harder due to 110 SPA (plus scald is a great move with the burn chance, I think).

Can someone explain this to me?
 
Kaiketsu said:
I see. Thanks a lot. I'll scratch the sub-pass then.

I still fail to understand what makes Clefable better than Vaporeon for being a cleric. Vaporeon has much more HP plus a decent spdef. I know his Def is kinda weak, but the huge HP pool and 256 def EV should help out. For special attacks, it's way more bulky. The typing is great with only two weaknesses which are rarely STAB-bed (except maybe Zapdos). It's also slightly faster and hits much harder due to 110 SPA (plus scald is a great move with the burn chance, I think).

Can someone explain this to me?
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Clefable's ability of Unaware(mainly)/Magic Guard makes it a better cleric, in addition to its fairy typing. The last thing a cleric wants is to get set up on; Clefable avoids this problem quite well. Clefable also synergizes well with a lot of teams, due to its fairy typing, which is quite a good defensive typing.
Vaporeon might have better stats on paper, but Clefable's ability to check set up sweepers much better is its main selling point, such as Tail Glow Manaphy, NP Thundurus and Mega Slowbro, for example.
I agree that Grass is relatively rare in the tier, but electric? Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Zapdos, Rotom-W, Raikou, Magnezone :]
 
where can i see latest usage stats? Ik sweepercalc.com/stats/ does show, but it show usage from October, and iirc the next stats will come Jan-end. Is there a way to see usage stats before then?
 
Kurona said:
How do those usage stats work, exactly? I see 0, 1500, 1630 and 1760 for each one. What do each of them mean, and which one of the four is used as the cutoff for a Pokémon to move to BL/UU from OU?
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Those are the glicko scores. In OU 1695 stats are used and in other tiers 1630 stats are used. Usually 3.41% is required for something to rise/drop but this was a bit higher (for rises) and lower (for drops) in december and january because of ORAS and the crash in november
 
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