Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[hobreezy]

Okay well since the frog is gone I have a nomination I've been wanting to do since the suspect ladder.
Starmie B+ to A-
Sitting at the 115 speed tier Starmie is one of the most viable greninja replacements as it outspeeds so many mons who compete at the 110 level. While it does not hit as hard as the old frog did, Analytic allows it to put a dent out of anything on the switch. Also starmie still contains great utility in rapid spin and also has the ability similar to greninja to hit physically with psyshock. Personally, I feel that Starmie is better suited sitting in A- with pokes like terrakion and mamoswine than pokemon like hawlucha or breloom. Overall, with the removal of greninja, starmie has gotten the excellent buff of being the fast revenge killing water type that greninja had occupied before it.

 

[p2]

Now that Greninja is gone, I think some discussion on whether to raise Starmie would be suitable

I'm just going to nominate it for A- right now, since Greninja was the one thing really holding it back. I know this is probably way too early, but we all knew this. And it was pretty much the go-to offensive water type during the suspect test

It's probably one of the best offensive spinners + a very solid defensive spinner with a great speed tier. It has 2 great abilities in Natural Cure and Analytic, the former lets it shrug off burns from stray Scalds/Lava Plume and Paralysis, while Analytic gives it a great boost, nuking everything that doesn't resist it on the switch in. It has great coverage, BoltBeam+Hydro Pump is unresisted, except by Shedinja. It can deal with its Ferrothorn and Scizor problems by luring with HP Fire sets, which are fairly effective as they would otherwise counter it.

tl;dr, Starmie from B+ to A-

 

[astroboy]

Like Dragonite... Okay, hinting aside, the amount of Viable Electic types makes life even harder for Moxie Gyarados to set up.

no one runs moxie gyara lol

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Here's to a better meta!

Anyway, the only pokemon I can see earning more viability without greninja is starmie and serperior. Serperior I'm kinda iffy on because beedrill and scarf lando are still a thorn in it's side.. but starmie has to put up with less dark spam which is nice. Starmie also fills the role of the new fast special attacking water type.

But otherwise.. all I'm seeing is tentacruel dropping, metagross recreating S+, and empoleon dropping. Keldeos and other scarfs who checked greninja are still running scarf to check scarf lando.

Just my 2 cents.. I definitely like this metagame much better but in regards to pokemon viability I don't see too big of a change and the only ones changing are the already broken ones getting more broken, and the niche pokemon losing their viability in OU.

EDIT: WOW ninja'd on the starmie mention as I typed that..

 

[Chronobreak]

I think serperior can definitely move to B-. With the removal of greninja, it's one less top tier threat that outspeeds it, and in addition to the other things mentioned earlier, without a shadow of a doubt to B-

 

[firehusky]

RIP GRENINJA

Seriously though, I think that all the niche mons that were supposed to check greninja like empoleon and P2 should drop, since that was like their only use. I think tentacruel is still fine where it is since it's an alright spinner and a good partner to mega sableye. (although both of them get demolished by mega garde which is why you need a garde check like jirachi on your team)

 

[thegrovylekid]

Greninja didn't stand a chance...

Anyways, what do you guys think about Sylveon? I'm not going to say anything about wether it should raise or drop just yet, but if you guys could give your thoughts that would be nice.

Supporting:
Empoleon Drop
P2 Drop
Clefable to S

 

[billall]

Here's to a better meta!

Anyway, the only pokemon I can see earning more viability without greninja is starmie and serperior. Serperior I'm kinda iffy on because beedrill and scarf lando are still a thorn in it's side.. but starmie has to put up with less dark spam which is nice. Starmie also fills the role of the new fast special attacking water type.

But otherwise.. all I'm seeing is tentacruel dropping, metagross recreating S+, and empoleon dropping. Keldeos and other scarfs who checked greninja are still running scarf to check scarf lando.

Just my 2 cents.. I definitely like this metagame much better but in regards to pokemon viability I don't see too big of a change and the only ones changing are the already broken ones getting more broken, and the niche pokemon losing their viability in OU.

EDIT: WOW ninja'd on the starmie mention as I typed that..

your point makes no sense cause starmie still gets rekt by scarf lando and mega bee

 

[RoyalDispenser]

your point makes no sense cause starmie still gets rekt by scarf lando and mega bee

Starmie is obliterated by greninja.. greninja can just switch into starmie like nothing. Beedrill and lando can't survive shit when switching in as psyshock+icebeam/anywatermove obliterates them. Greninja was a solid counter to the starfish, and now with it gone starmie is less of a momentum loser. Not to mention base 115 speed and 100 SpA is enough to replace greninja on the fast special attacker aspec for the latis and new megas.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 234-277 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 286-339 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 216-255 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not a lot of guaranteed KOs... but it does late game clean/threaten switches. With the addition of utility in rapid spin and status absorbing if you want to go that route.

252 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 192-226 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 262-310 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[thegrovylekid]

Starmie is obliterated by greninja.. greninja can just switch into starmie like nothing. Beedrill and lando can't survive shit when switching in as psyshock+icebeam/anywatermove obliterates them. Greninja was a solid counter to the starfish, and now with it gone starmie is less of a momentum loser. Not to mention base 115 speed and 100 SpA is enough to replace greninja on the fast special attacker aspec for the latis and new megas.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 234-277 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 286-339 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 216-255 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not a lot of guaranteed KOs... but it does late game clean/threaten switches. With the addition of utility in rapid spin and status absorbing if you want to go that route.

252 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 192-226 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 262-310 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Mega Sabeleye?

 

[JebusChrist]

Starmie is obliterated by greninja.. greninja can just switch into starmie like nothing. Beedrill and lando can't survive shit when switching in as psyshock+icebeam/anywatermove obliterates them. Greninja was a solid counter to the starfish, and now with it gone starmie is less of a momentum loser. Not to mention base 115 speed and 100 SpA is enough to replace greninja on the fast special attacker aspec for the latis and new megas.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 234-277 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 286-339 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 216-255 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not a lot of guaranteed KOs... but it does late game clean/threaten switches. With the addition of utility in rapid spin and status absorbing if you want to go that route.

252 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 192-226 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 262-310 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you're gonna post calcs, can you at least make them accurate? Offensive Starmie is always running Timid, not sure why 3/4 of your calcs are with Modest. And your two calcs for it taking hits have different HP investment

 

[ChimeraOfWind]

Just want to comment on this since I've seen a few people mention it.

Serperior cannot get past Chansey without knockoff. +6 leafstorm being able to 2hko doesn't really mean much when it will get crippled by twave or stalled out by toxic.

 

[Adamantx]

To anyone saying tenta should drop with greninja's ban, you must also consider that without greninja running around everwhere spamming gunk shot at all the fairy types, they will likely become more popular, and who is an excellent check to them for defensive/balanced teams, who can do more than just check fairies? Tentacruel. Yes, it was a very good greninja check and this might make it seem less viable, it will also benefit from the increased Clefable, Sylveon, and Azumarill usage.

 

[branflakes]

Supporting:
Clefable to S

You've been including this in a lot of your posts lately, but I've yet to see a post explaining why you support it.

Why is Mega Latias ranked so high? I've used this in quite a few matches vs legitimately good players and it hasn't done jack. It just sits there passively checking the Genies+Keldeo, but at the same time it allows Dark types and Metagross to switch in for free. I could very well use normal Latias for the same results.

Mega Latias in A has me scratching my head as well. As far as I'm aware, it has a niche in being a defensive CM sweeper but it seems to have a really tough time pulling it off. Unless the set is more offensive (see: LO Latias), any attempts at setting up are usually prevented by other high-ranked mons including Mega Metagross, Mega Sableye, Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Bisharp, Zard X, Unaware Clefable, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gyarados, Heatran, etc. In fact, almost everything in S and A+ prevents Mega Latias from setting up or doing anything that LO Latias cannot do. Clefable, Slowbro and even Keldeo seem to be far more efficient CM sweepers, each sporting a way to avoid being worn down by status.

Mega Latias suffers from at least three of these four huge issues on any given CM set:
-Weakness to U-Turn and Pursuit
-Susceptibility to all kinds of status
-Poor mono-attacking type (Dark types > Stored Power, Steel types > Dragon Pulse)
-Poor coverage options

I apologize if I've missed something from a previous discussion about Mega Latias, but I think it belongs in B+ Rank.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

If you're gonna post calcs, can you at least make them accurate? Offensive Starmie is always running Timid, not sure why 3/4 of your calcs are with Modest. And your two calcs for it taking hits have different HP investment

Actually whoops, I derped and did a speed minusing nature (quiet) to get analytic to apply on the damage calc. Some starmie's do run a defensive role meaning landorus-t is not a reliable check like the OP pointed out.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 263-309 (94.9 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 203-239 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 198-234 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It's a 2HKO or no reguardless, nature was irrelevant to the argument.

 

[Jaguar360]

And Mega Sabeleye?

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 224-265 (73.6 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
There ya go.
I would go more in depth about Starmie, but I need to sleep.

 

[firehusky]

Weakness to pursuit and u turn doesn't matter since you can pretty much say that for every psychic type. Latias can easily get past status with substitute. Every mon that runs a mono-attacking type is walled by something. I can very much say that altaria has a poor mono attacking type because of ferrothorn and heatran. Poor coverage options don't really matter when you have the bulk to easily set up 6 calm minds, meaning you can pretty much OHKO everything that's not a fairy type or dark type.
Therefore, I think that mega latias is fine where it is.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Changes due to Greninja ban I support:
Clefable to S
Mega Slowbro to A
Tornadus-T to B+
Mega Pidgeot to B-
Slowking to C+

I want to wait bit more on Serperior
Starmie already pretty high, going to need to hear more to see be convinced of this

 

[branflakes]

The point is that Clefable has the option to beat anything that "counters" it given the right moveset. And even if your opponent has something that checks it, who cares? Clef is a utility mon, it's not supposed to sweep the tier, it's supposed to support the team and if you have CM, be a secondary wincon. It's one of the easiest Pokemon to fit on a team and definitely one of the most valuable, which by definition makes it one of the most viable Pokemon and its rank should show that. Make it S.

This depends on the set you're running. If it's defensive CM + 2 attacks then it offers little utility other than being a pivot and resist, and this set is supposed to sweep. Same goes for the other coverage including Focus Blast. However, if you're running a set with Wish or Aromatherapy or Thunder Wave or SR, you have to give up coverage to make use of these utility options. Or you can give up CM, sacrificing Clefable's offensive presence.

I'm definitely not implying that Clefable has 4MSS - it obviously doesn't. What I'm saying is that Clefable doesn't fill all kinds of roles simultaneously. Magic Guard falls victim to opposing setup sweepers, whereas Unaware absolutely hates Scald and other status, CM+2 attacks has little utility, and Mono-attacking is walled by every steel type. While I agree that Clefable is probably the best available option for some of these roles, this does not mean its going to pull its weight and have zero opportunity cost.

Lastly, mono-attacking sets have a REALLY hard time finding setup opportunities. CM is usually best just for scaring off opposing boosters, assuming you're Unaware.

EDIT: You could say that Clefable's utility as a check is its claim to fame, but it actually fails to switch into and check a lot of Pokemon at the top of the ranking list. RoyalDispenser: Clefable does outclass a lot of things, but it's far from flawless in performing any of its roles. This is where its average stats limit its effectiveness.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Clefable doesn't need to preform a thousand roles with one set.. it's a matter if the pokemon can preform a variety of roles flawlessly and outclasses many other pokemon in those roles. Clefable can be a good answer for preventing sweeps with unaware.. there goes quagsire's viability on stall. Clefable can be offensive with CM and has the coverage to handle it's checks.. there goes sylveon. Clefable can be support and lay hazards, wishpass, and heal status with aromatherapy. This means less team building since it can preform the roles of sylveon, chansey, and any hazard layer that is needed for the team. It can be an effective glue and run the set corresponding to the team around it.. which takes some (potentially dangerous) scouting to figure out what that set is. It's just a very good pokemon that is always considered in teambuilding as it replaces a lot of weaker mons that either don't do the role as well or don't have the syngery with the team. It's worthy of S because of it's massive ammount of offensive, and supportive roles that it preforms better than any of the other viable pokemon with those roles in the tier.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Well, Clefable is like Greninja in this regard: It can 6-0 for you, but it's a long shot, or it can clean 3-4 Pokemon for you once the hard counters are removed.

 

[Ruffles]

I know that everybody is excited for Greninja ban, but I definitely think everybody is rushing a bit.

First, Serperior definitely did not get any better with Greninja leaving. Sure, having 1 less thing from the very few things that outspeed and revenge kill Serperior is certainly nice, but it is not what held it from B-, and it is definitely not making Serperior anymore viable. Serperior fits perfectly in the "C" category. Having a certain niche, yet has notable flaws that prevent it from being effective. For example, it suffers from4MSS (HP Ground, HP Fire, Giga Drain, and Knock Off are the last two options) and has very common counters/checks such as Heatran, Talonflame, Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, Clefable (Unaware), Chansey, and Mega Manectric. It also needs significant support often, no team without solid counters, for example, to Heatran and Talonflame can put Serperior to good use. It is, also, outclassed, Mega Sceptile, for example, is much preferred for his speed and his ability to have STAB Dragon Pulse, not to mentioned ability to have Earthquake and/or Focus blast, which are huge. As a cleaner, it is also outclassed by the likes of Talonflame, Gengar, Thundurus, Raikou, etc. It may deserve a B- later, but not until the metagame calms down and settles then we could analyze even MORE.

With all that though, I do want to emphasize on Starmie's nomination to A-. The offensive set is very viable, a fantastic cleaner, and one sure to make holes in Balanced or HO. However, I must say, the defensive rapid spinner set is absolutely amazing. It does not only counter the likes of Keldeo, Terrakion, and Heatran, but it is, surprisingly, a solid Mega Metagross check. Ones that lack Grass Knot are 100% checked, and if no rocks or crits, countered. Similarly, Grass Knot variants are also shakily checked thanks to Reflect Type which will copy Mega Metagross's typing, Resisting GK. GK variants do not carry EQ, but Hammer Arm does 2HKO. HOWEVER, you do have a small chance between Scald burn, missing, and PP stalling (believe this is possible), but yeah, not the best. However, Bullet Punch and Ice Punch sets are countered by Starmie without hazards (Sometimes with hazards). The defensive set is also much more reliable than Excadrill in spinning, having the ability not only to possibly burn with Scald but also Recover for longevity.

 

[Halcyon.]

Mega Sableye is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good fairy type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

Now watch this:

Clefable is a very good Pokemon. It brings a lot of both defensive and offensive utility to a team while also supporting it with its amazing typing and possible status moves. Even though it is a bit of a matchup based Pokemon (basically any team with a good steel type will give it trouble), it's one of those Pokemon where if you aren't very prepared for it, it will go to town on your team.

The argument that Metagross or Heatran or whatever steel type give Clefable so much trouble that it shouldn't be S can easily be applied to Mega Sableye with Fairy types. Hiw can anyone continue to say Sableye is S (which it obviously is) and then say Clefable isn't due to it having counters? The tier is incredibly prepared for both Sableye and Clefable and yet they both manage to do work. I really can't fathom why Clef wouldn't be S rank.

And just because Clef can't run all its sets at once doesn't mean it shouldn't rise. Lando-T can't be Scarf and Defensive at the same time, but that doesn't mean both sets don't contribute to its placement.

 

[boltsandbombers]

I know that everybody is excited for Greninja ban, but I definitely think everybody is rushing a bit.

First, Serperior definitely did not get any better with Greninja leaving. Sure, having 1 less thing from the very few things that outspeed and revenge kill Serperior is certainly nice, but it is not what held it from B-, and it is definitely not making Serperior anymore viable. Serperior fits perfectly in the "C" category. Having a certain niche, yet has notable flaws that prevent it from being effective. For example, it suffers from4MSS (HP Ground, HP Fire, Giga Drain, and Knock Off are the last two options) and has very common counters/checks such as Heatran, Talonflame, Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, Clefable (Unaware), Chansey, and Mega Manectric. It also needs significant support often, no team without solid counters, for example, to Heatran and Talonflame can put Serperior to good use. It is, also, outclassed, Mega Sceptile, for example, is much preferred for his speed and his ability to have STAB Dragon Pulse, not to mentioned ability to have Earthquake and/or Focus blast, which are huge. As a cleaner, it is also outclassed by the likes of Talonflame, Gengar, Thundurus, Raikou, etc. It may deserve a B- later, but not until the metagame calms down and settles then we could analyze even MORE.

With all that though, I do want to emphasize on Starmie's nomination to A-. The offensive set is very viable, a fantastic cleaner, and one sure to make holes in Balanced or HO. However, I must say, the defensive rapid spinner set is absolutely amazing. It does not only counter the likes of Keldeo, Terrakion, and Heatran, but it is, surprisingly, a solid Mega Metagross check. Ones that lack Grass Knot are 100% checked, and if no rocks or crits, countered. Similarly, Grass Knot variants are also shakily checked thanks to Reflect Type which will copy Mega Metagross's typing, Resisting GK. GK variants do not carry EQ, but Hammer Arm does 2HKO. HOWEVER, you do have a small chance between Scald burn, missing, and PP stalling (believe this is possible), but yeah, not the best. However, Bullet Punch and Ice Punch sets are countered by Starmie without hazards (Sometimes with hazards). The defensive set is also much more reliable than Excadrill in spinning, having the ability not only to possibly burn with Scald but also Recover for longevity.

I totally agree with the rise of Starmie, but in now way shape or form does the defensive set counter Keldeo, due to the prevalence of Sub Calm Mind sets. Basically, if Starmie switches in and Keldeo gets up a sub it basically can just get to +6 from there, and defensive Starmie cannot afford to run Psyshock as it needs Scald / Rapid Spin / Recover / Reflect Type to function effectively.
The offensive set is great currently as it can OHKO or 2HKO the only 2 relevant Ghost-types with either a Analytic boosted Psyshock or Hydro Pump for Gengar and Mega Sableye respectively, which gives it a free moveslot for something along the likes of Tbolt / HP Fire / Ice Beam.

 

[56k]

Starmie, like Tentacruel, can also beat the two most common spin blockers: sableye and gengar