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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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Mew should be pretty obvious, its stallbreaker set becomes a stallbait set with Mega-Sableye running around everywhere. I would like to hear the resoning behind Volc and Lucario tho.
I'd like to nominate Rhyperior to get moved down to B- (Possibly C+ but that seems a tad harsh). Its main niche in XY was to check both bird spam and Charizard-X in one teamslot iirc, but both of those are significantly less common now. Furthermore, Rhyperior gained a lot more checks in ORAS, namely Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade, Mega Sharpedo, and more. Other meta game shifts have also been unkind to it, such as the rise of both Gyarados forms, Landorus-T (Ice punch can somewhat fix this) and stall teams, which Rhyperior struggles to do much against. It actually loses 1v1 against every pokemon in S rank, not exactly an appealing trait.
Land-T usually wins, EQ 2hko's while Rhyperior fails to OHKO back, defensive Land-T avoids the OHKO from uninvested ice punch. To be fair, Rhyperior beats scarf sets if it packs ice punch, but I digress.
Lopunny 2HKO's with HJK, while uninvested EQ doesn't OHKO back.
M-Meta is similar to M-Lop, 2hko's with mash, Rhyperior can't OHKO.
Mega Sab just burns it and sets up calm minds all day, and also prevents Rhyperior from getting rocks up.
Overall, Rhyperior still has a viable niche, but it's not as big as it was. Rhyperior to B-
I also agree with Mew moving down
Land-T usually wins, EQ 2hko's while Rhyperior fails to OHKO back, defensive Land-T avoids the OHKO from uninvested ice punch. To be fair, Rhyperior beats scarf sets if it packs ice punch, but I digress.
Lopunny 2HKO's with HJK, while uninvested EQ doesn't OHKO back.
M-Meta is similar to M-Lop, 2hko's with mash, Rhyperior can't OHKO.
Mega Sab just burns it and sets up calm minds all day, and also prevents Rhyperior from getting rocks up.
Overall, Rhyperior still has a viable niche, but it's not as big as it was. Rhyperior to B-
I also agree with Mew moving down
How is STAB Superpower easier to abuse than Bolt Strike? Superpower comes with dropping your attack and defense -1 each time you use it. Bolt Strike's only drawback is the accuracy, which is mitigated by Victory Star. Furthermore, if Emboar uses Superpower, it is most likely going to be forced out by a faster Pokemon, moreso on offensive teams than stall because stall is really passive. Not being weak to Stealth Rock helps, and while the decline in usage for Pinsir (and possibly Talonflame) helps mitigate its Flying weakness, most of what you have said in the post I am quoting could not be any more wrong.
Mew lost some viability but you guys are highly underestimating Mew's abilities if you're seriously considering to drop it below B+
Mew stalling out M-Gross and providing ample utility
I could spend some more time finding some good replays but off the top of my head this was an easy one to find. Mew has stopped effectively stall breaking M-Sableye teams. Besides this though it still has all of the traits it provided that made Mew relevant in the first place and will still break down defensive cores that don't utilize M-Sableye which isn't exactly unheard of in what is now a bulkier metagame due to the absence of Greninja allowing for Balanced and Bulky Offense. Its defensive set is able to help check M-Lopunny, M-Gross, Lando-T, non SD Excadrill, just to name a few off the top of my head. While Knock Off isn't always on every Mew set it still has options of Foul Play for checking set up sweepers such as SD Talonflame, Gyarados, while punishing the attack boost from M-Metagross for Meteor Mash attack increases along with Seismic Toss and Night Shade to not depend on its attack stats. The issue with M-Sableye is only an issue from a 1v1 stand-point when it's already wise to pair up Mew with offensive and defensive Fairy types such as the replay with M-Altaria. A lot of the pursuit trappers in the tier don't want to run the risk of switching into Will-O-Wisps in the first place which keeps some builds on their toes. You can't realistically say that Mews support capabilities are on the level of say Quagsire and Cresselia when Mew has a much more immediate presence based off of the variances in spread and movepool with defensive Psychic types on the rise anyways to handle a physical metagame and as such Mew falls under this category. Cresselia rose in rank based on this last point so why would you drop Mew for a similar point from a support perspective. I'm only going to speak on its defensive merits cause that is realistically where Mew shines the most and offensive variants are extremely team specific and don't hold an enormous weight in its viability to begin with so just bringing that up before someone brings that up. Keep Mew in B+ please.
Mew stalling out M-Gross and providing ample utility
I could spend some more time finding some good replays but off the top of my head this was an easy one to find. Mew has stopped effectively stall breaking M-Sableye teams. Besides this though it still has all of the traits it provided that made Mew relevant in the first place and will still break down defensive cores that don't utilize M-Sableye which isn't exactly unheard of in what is now a bulkier metagame due to the absence of Greninja allowing for Balanced and Bulky Offense. Its defensive set is able to help check M-Lopunny, M-Gross, Lando-T, non SD Excadrill, just to name a few off the top of my head. While Knock Off isn't always on every Mew set it still has options of Foul Play for checking set up sweepers such as SD Talonflame, Gyarados, while punishing the attack boost from M-Metagross for Meteor Mash attack increases along with Seismic Toss and Night Shade to not depend on its attack stats. The issue with M-Sableye is only an issue from a 1v1 stand-point when it's already wise to pair up Mew with offensive and defensive Fairy types such as the replay with M-Altaria. A lot of the pursuit trappers in the tier don't want to run the risk of switching into Will-O-Wisps in the first place which keeps some builds on their toes. You can't realistically say that Mews support capabilities are on the level of say Quagsire and Cresselia when Mew has a much more immediate presence based off of the variances in spread and movepool with defensive Psychic types on the rise anyways to handle a physical metagame and as such Mew falls under this category. Cresselia rose in rank based on this last point so why would you drop Mew for a similar point from a support perspective. I'm only going to speak on its defensive merits cause that is realistically where Mew shines the most and offensive variants are extremely team specific and don't hold an enormous weight in its viability to begin with so just bringing that up before someone brings that up. Keep Mew in B+ please.
Arcanine has at least the niche of a bulky non-mega firetype with recovery, Milotic has no such niche, worse coverage options, a worse movepool andworse abilities, not to mention its slower.
Milotic is simply outclassed in OU and as such has no business being even D rank.
I'd like to reopen the discussion about Clefable moving from A+ to S, which I support. It can fill many different roles, from wish passing/heal bell to defensive cm, and do all of these roles very effectively. The unaware set is a stop to mega sableye, which has become almost a staple on stall. There is pretty much no risk to using Clef because it is a threat to every play style, no matter what set you're running. The main issue of course is physical steel types such as Megagross (what isn't threatened by this) scizor and bisharp, which can all be dealt with without a huge amount of support from other mons.
Edit: also life orb gengar but this is stopped by a number of special walls
Edit: also life orb gengar but this is stopped by a number of special walls
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What I meant to say is that Emboar is less reliant on prediction than Victini because it can be really hard to choose between Bolt Strike and V-create, especially if Heatran is lurking. Against stall, provided waters are removed it can use Flare Blitz and kill mega sableye or skarm and then start spamming it, whereas Victini usually needs to switch out due to the def drops.
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Switching out on a Stall team because of DEFENSE DROPS?!! Because Stall teams are well known for packing things that instantly OHKO Victini :/
It was blacklisted like 35 minutes ago.
well...
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 446-528 (130.7 - 154.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 308-366 (90.3 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I mean really a good player should have gotten rid of these beforehand... but yeah, stall can KO it.
Emboar should stay unranked:
I know the hype for the HA of the 5gen starters is real (except for poor Samurott) but let's stay realistic here. While Serperior has a very useful niche, Emboar brings nothing new to OU. It is kind of like Darmanitan, outclassed in its role as fire-wallbreaker. Without an adamant nature it doesn't deal more damage than Victini already does, its movepool is not that great and it gets worn down very fast because of recoil and hazards. The next big problem is its speed: It is very slow so it has to take a hit before attacking which will keep its sweep short. You could argue that it doesn't need speed to break walls but there are still other wallbreakers (Victini and Crawdaunt for example) that are not complete deadweight against offense.
We should wait and see if this Pokemon can fullfill a niche after some days, but for now keep it unranked.
Mega-Sceptile (maybe) to B+:
I would like to see more discussion about this because I'm on the fence with this nomination.
Contrary Serperior does nearly the same as Sceptile but is slower and has no dragon-type (so no STAB on Dragon Pulse) but in exchange it is better against stall-teams, stronger in general thanks to Leaf Storm, has more utility moves such as Glare and doesn't cost a Mega. I would say this is enough to drop it one rank but I would like to hear more opinions about that.
Gliscor to A-:
Everybody is so mean to it. I know that Landorus-T is bulkier after Intimidate but other than that Gliscor has so much more to offer: Sp.-defensive for Landorus (which I saw a bit more often in my last matches), Roost (which is the biggest advantage for Gliscor over Landorus-T) and utility moves like Taunt, Knock Off and Swords Dance. Not fearing Knock Off after the activation of the Toxic-Orb is nice and something Landorus-T can only dream of.
I don't see it in B+, A- is way more fitting for it.
Things I agree with:
Clefable to S: If Landorus-T is S while being so flawed then I don't see a reason to not rise Clefable too.
Huntail to D: Sucker Punch is nice, Gorebyss can go.
Mew stay in B+: Sableye hurts but still a great Pokemon and a pain for defensive cores.
I know the hype for the HA of the 5gen starters is real (except for poor Samurott) but let's stay realistic here. While Serperior has a very useful niche, Emboar brings nothing new to OU. It is kind of like Darmanitan, outclassed in its role as fire-wallbreaker. Without an adamant nature it doesn't deal more damage than Victini already does, its movepool is not that great and it gets worn down very fast because of recoil and hazards. The next big problem is its speed: It is very slow so it has to take a hit before attacking which will keep its sweep short. You could argue that it doesn't need speed to break walls but there are still other wallbreakers (Victini and Crawdaunt for example) that are not complete deadweight against offense.
We should wait and see if this Pokemon can fullfill a niche after some days, but for now keep it unranked.
Mega-Sceptile (maybe) to B+:
I would like to see more discussion about this because I'm on the fence with this nomination.
Contrary Serperior does nearly the same as Sceptile but is slower and has no dragon-type (so no STAB on Dragon Pulse) but in exchange it is better against stall-teams, stronger in general thanks to Leaf Storm, has more utility moves such as Glare and doesn't cost a Mega. I would say this is enough to drop it one rank but I would like to hear more opinions about that.
Gliscor to A-:
Everybody is so mean to it. I know that Landorus-T is bulkier after Intimidate but other than that Gliscor has so much more to offer: Sp.-defensive for Landorus (which I saw a bit more often in my last matches), Roost (which is the biggest advantage for Gliscor over Landorus-T) and utility moves like Taunt, Knock Off and Swords Dance. Not fearing Knock Off after the activation of the Toxic-Orb is nice and something Landorus-T can only dream of.
I don't see it in B+, A- is way more fitting for it.
Things I agree with:
Clefable to S: If Landorus-T is S while being so flawed then I don't see a reason to not rise Clefable too.
Huntail to D: Sucker Punch is nice, Gorebyss can go.
Mew stay in B+: Sableye hurts but still a great Pokemon and a pain for defensive cores.
I'm not opposed to gliscor rising, but a little nitpick: landorus-t also learns knock off and sd
I know but it doesn't have room for it on his defensive set. Knock Off is mostly used on the scarf-set and SD on the DoubleDance-set, which both don't provide the defensive support of Gliscor or the defensive set rom Landorus-T.
agreeing with both of these
megascep, from my experience, has always been underwhelming. its speed is great, cool typing, and a nice immunity to electric, allowing it to check things like thundy and rotom. however, its attack is just....lackluster. and unless you wanna run leaf storm, which is the farthest thing from spammable for it, you're gonna have to be relying on other low base-power moves, and thats just...no.... like dpulse doesnt even kill latias.
glisc is super fun and good to use rn, being able to beat things like sableye 1v1 (with sd), being a status absorber, and a check to the ever prominent lando-t. its just a hella mon to run.
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I dont get the lati bit.
252 SpA Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 278-330 (92 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Adjusted for stats and typing and with real possibility of hazard damage since it is usually removing em. It can kill Tios with prior damage or leave it at sorta sixty percent (and really just if its that sub set, then Latias isnt an issue much either) so i dont get the idea of not being able to beat them with d-pulse.
I support the M-Sceptile(Obviously since I was the one that voted for it to lower a rank,lol.), Serperior being better against Stall and even dealing more consistent damage than him is something important, If Greninja was still in OU I would never consider it to drop a rank since it made very difficult for it to come freely, but now the best pokemon it could check has gone, it still outruns things like M-Lopunny, but as said posts ago so does Scarf Latios without taking a Mega slot.
So far I vote for:
Raikou for A-
Clefable for S
M-Sceptile for B+
M-Manectric for A-
Serperior for B
I support the M-Sceptile(Obviously since I was the one that voted for it to lower a rank,lol.), Serperior being better against Stall and even dealing more consistent damage than him is something important, If Greninja was still in OU I would never consider it to drop a rank since it made very difficult for it to come freely, but now the best pokemon it could check has gone, it still outruns things like M-Lopunny, but as said posts ago so does Scarf Latios without taking a Mega slot.
So far I vote for:
Raikou for A-
Clefable for S
M-Sceptile for B+
M-Manectric for A-
Serperior for B
I agree with serperior rising through I think now with grenija gone that 113 speed has become really quite smexy as it's ; 1 less faster pokemon that can ko it and 2 it's still faster than base 111 or bellow pokemon which is a boon, i'd personally say it fits in with the B+, given it's speed, doesn't take up a mega slot, power even before a leaf storm due it's power and stab boost and access to 100% paralysis in glare, but tbh i don't have enough clout to back it up atm, still testing serperiors abilities atm , but but it's been a asset in general, for a strong grass type that doesn't require a mega slot + isn't horribly slow.
Agreeing on dropping M-sceptitle, the competition for mega slot is still harsh and with ninja gone serperior's unique niche as a contary grass sweper and lack of tkaing up a mega slot hurt m-spectile.
With out greninja destroying it with stab gunkshot, clefable has dfinately moved up in th world with it's ability to go, toe to toe with mega saybleye and com out on top very single time, thanks to it's stab and unaware, countering an SR stone cold is quite the boon.
With no competition for a megaslot and the ever usefulness of a speedy bulky electric type raikou is pretty useful on alot of teams, especially with that great base 115 speed, made even better with out greninja around to gunk shot his weaker defence. A+
IM BACK!
Wow! Its been a long time! What was it, like 4 months? Well, im back and i feel goood.
First off i would like to talk about Serperior. Ive been testing the guy and its Sub+Taunt+LS+HP Fire set destroys Rain Teams and really just screws over Water types in general. People seem to say its not that powerful but then proceed to not show any calcs... And worst of all is that no one talks about his amazing speed stat! He is the only viable Grass type above base 101 speed in OU meta. Sadly this guy has many problems and suffers against shit like Heatran and Chansey. I think B is fine for it now, as with the correct support, it can shred through teams.
Now, second part. Clefable should be A+. I cant stress this enough: He is powerful and tedious, but he has answers and he sure as hell has a lot of answers. Definetly not offensive at all, and every team runs something that resists Fairy types. Im gonna run some with 252 and some with 0.
[Do you even want to see these calcs...]
If you even let Clef CM twice then thats a problem itself. Good typing, just not a good offensive presence even at +2 and is definetly not as good as MMeta, MLop, or MSab.
EDIT: To clear my argument better (TRC liked my post so that means its a "shitpost" lol) I think clef is a godly supportive mon, but in a meta hellbent on offensive pressure i dont feel like Clef has it.
Wow! Its been a long time! What was it, like 4 months? Well, im back and i feel goood.
First off i would like to talk about Serperior. Ive been testing the guy and its Sub+Taunt+LS+HP Fire set destroys Rain Teams and really just screws over Water types in general. People seem to say its not that powerful but then proceed to not show any calcs... And worst of all is that no one talks about his amazing speed stat! He is the only viable Grass type above base 101 speed in OU meta. Sadly this guy has many problems and suffers against shit like Heatran and Chansey. I think B is fine for it now, as with the correct support, it can shred through teams.
Now, second part. Clefable should be A+. I cant stress this enough: He is powerful and tedious, but he has answers and he sure as hell has a lot of answers. Definetly not offensive at all, and every team runs something that resists Fairy types. Im gonna run some with 252 and some with 0.
[Do you even want to see these calcs...]
If you even let Clef CM twice then thats a problem itself. Good typing, just not a good offensive presence even at +2 and is definetly not as good as MMeta, MLop, or MSab.
EDIT: To clear my argument better (TRC liked my post so that means its a "shitpost" lol) I think clef is a godly supportive mon, but in a meta hellbent on offensive pressure i dont feel like Clef has it.
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Oh God he's back...
No dragon pulse on serperior... That makes every dragon other than garchomp resist your attacks as well as almost all the fire types...
Only viable OU grass mon faster than celibi? Um mega sceptile much? Serperior can take down Chansey if behind a sub when it switches in I think and heatran loses to HP ground which is very common.
Erm why are you running calcs at +2 for no random logical reason... If it's calm minding it's either to go +6 and sweep or grab a 2hko on something.
If you run DPulse you are walled by Steels. Either way, you get different coverages.
I forgot about MScept, but otherwise, ye. Also it doesnt require a mega slot which is a plus.
Im running +2 to show its threatening offensive presence.
Although, Clefable may not be an offensive monster, its definetly an S rank in support. Wish passing, Heal Beller, SR setter, status spread, etc. is cool. Sadly the only thing thats keeping it at A+ for me is the offensive presence. It doesnt feel right to have a support mon in S rank... Is it just me?
Where shall I begin?
What about your Serperior set? Sub+Taunt is a no-go on it. It is supposed to clean and sweep so please use Dragon Pulse.
Your reasons to not raise Clefable are not valid. Random calcs don't prove anything. Despite that Clefable should raise because of the amount of support it brings for its team with all of its sets and not because it is a sweeper like MegaMeta or Lopunny.
I will keep it short because I bet I got ninja'ed while I am typing this.
Because Clefable runs mono-fairy offense. Right?
2nd. When you do a set-up sweeper, that usually means you've eliminated anything on the opposing team that surefire stop to it.
3rd. Getting Clefable to +2 is not that hard unless you've really fucked up.
4th. CM Fable tend to work as a secondary win condition.
Lastly, Clefable is not merely offensive. Its supportive as well.
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