Metagame NP: RU Stage 6: Heavy Metal and Reflective (ALL 3 SUSPECTS BANNED, DISCUSSING POST BANS META NOW)

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How do you bluff specs/scarf without Volt Switch? Its what it clicks nearly every turn. Also Eelelktross wrecks this apparent threat as does any electric type. You wont even KO a Lanturn ever. I mean this might have some niche use but tbh with how common eel is and how its a one trick pony(has to trap a steel and then do a war of attrition)
Also who says Registeel wants to be trapped? Curse Registeel would laugh as it curses and rests up then gets to plus 6. Even if you quad resist iron head; its plus 6 and you have no recovery.
Also this is an incredibly slow mon... how do you set up on Gligar when Gligar EQs and outspeeds?
0 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Magneton: 232-280 (76.3 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
How do you wall a dugtrio? it outspeeds and oh-kos you...
Doublade: 252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Magneton: 78-93 (25.6 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO guaranteed to break your sub every time lets not forget crits plus it can shadow sneak as well
You didn't even mention Mega-Steelix who laughs this off...

Like literally aside form trapping Iron Head/EQ bronzong this set seems highly lacking... A lot of your claims just go refuted; a rebuttal?
 
Daily reminder that Doublade as a ghost-type can switch out of trapping



If someone wants to be real manly test:
Magnet Rise/HP Fire/tbolt/rest magneton, with 301 total hp. I.e. god steel trapper (shit against everything else doe)
 
Windsong said:
jeeze if you're actually worried about refresh work up bird run rest talk haze aurorus or something smh

pif, you're a good player, but that team is kinda jank. I'm pretty sure a decent number of people want Mega Bird gone, but posting replays of a bird weak stall team losing to birds is pretty pointless.

edit boltsandbombers my point was that asking for things that counter ridiculously niche (bad) sets (lol Refresh + Work Up) is in and of itself worthless, and that the replay posted was equally worthless
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I wish you reprimanded me with your 1000th post but okay!

Is this replay less worthless

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-203927741

So I have Regirock and special defense Cressy which should hard counter Pidgeot and I also have 0/252 spdef Alomomola which should be able to check Pidgeot. And I still lose to it because Hurricane bullshit confusion messed up toxic on Pidgeot and KOd by Cresselia.

I wouldn't call my first stall team Pidgeot weak since special defense Cresselia was used and it is a counter to Pidgeot and isn't even trapped by Dugtrio but I guess as a whole it was bird weak.

I wouldn't consider Work Up+Refresh ridiculously bad but I would agree it is clearly inferior for an average team compared to a standard set with U-Turn.

(ps thank u for calling me good player ^_^)
 
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hilarious said:
I wish you reprimanded me with your 1000th post but okay!

Is this replay less worthless

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-203927741

So I have Regirock and special defense Cressy which should hard counter Pidgeot and I also have 0/252 spdef Alomomola which should be able to check Pidgeot. And I still lose to it because Hurricane bullshit confusion messed up toxic on Pidgeot and KOd by Cresselia.

I wouldn't call my first stall team Pidgeot weak since special defense Cresselia was used and it is a counter to Pidgeot and isn't even trapped by Dugtrio but I guess as a whole it was bird weak.

I wouldn't consider Work Up+Refresh ridiculously bad but I would agree it is clearly inferior for an average team compared to a standard set with U-Turn.

(ps thank u for calling me good player ^_^)
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Watching that cancerous replay, I think that you mainly lost mainly because of LO Modest Clawitzer and not Mega Pidgeot. Your team was just unprepared for Wallbreaker Clawitzer.

I'm not an expert on stall but T-wave Cresselia, Mirror Coat Mola, and/or SpD Gastrodon woulda won you the game (and would help your team)
 
Yah I'm gonna have to agree with Professional on that one, you let your one good stop to Clawitzer get worn down enough to were it could be KO'd by Clawitzer's Ice Beam. Pidgeot almost need not of been there as Clawitzer could of easily won with the wish support from mola. Building a stall team that can cover everything is hard, but as far as Pidgeot goes I don't think you really played it to well, every time it stayed in against your cress or your regirock you never once clicked T-wave which would of crippled it rendering it almost useless. I just think you got outplayed overall lol, not a reason to ban a mon.
 
yfw bullshit extends your ladder session far longer than usual

oh and just trying to remember, the alt identification thread will be posted at the end of the session, right?

to make this post relevant, I'm not sure why people are hating on my work up refresh burd. Versus defensive teams (which i've noticed to be a norm), Work Up breaks through rather easily, especially (and granted, typically only when) Steels/ Electross are removed. Since standard poops on most offensive teams, any matchup without a dedicated check like Elektross (ew) will almost certainly be a tossup based on M Pidgeot's set.

Still, I'm on the fence concerning bird. while i don't think its presence is necessarily healthy, it's still checked pretty hard by a lot more than people give it credit for.

Serperior is definitely overhyped in this meta. It's checked pretty hard by a significant number of Pokemon. Bronzong, a few other steels, Birds, Golbat, Emboar, Amoongus, Togetic, Skuntank, Sliggoo, ect all check it pretty well. Serp's pretty weak to start with, and while it's got great coverage, its moves don't really have the strength to back that up. Not to mention it loses out on having any bulk as an attacker (with bad defensive typing i might add). I don't see how Serp could be considered broken in this meta, and I think that we ought to not consider the future as a valid argument.
 
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Just got requirements yesterday after playing a lot in the ladder to try as much combinations of sets/cores as I could so I'll express my opinions on Dragalge, Mega Pidgeot and Serperior in respective order.

But first I'll start off with my general thoughts
I think these three pokemons really centralize building a lot, I mean literally every guy I went against was using one of these three(me too lol), if not two or all of them in one team, and why not, I dont have nothing against this because if you get one in your team it brings a lot of versatility and nuking power, and when you build a balanced or stallish team the first thing you think is to put something that can check or counter them along with the main core, with this I don't wanna say they're broken, but ban-worthy.
One thing I wanted to try was to build a team made to counter some of the really abused mons or tactics in the suspect ladder, unfortunately I got requirements before that and it was really getting boring so rest in pepperonies.

Ok, I'd say my experience with Dragalge was really nice when I played with it in my team and really bad when I had it against for obvious reasons, I tried different sets but I think the best one, which was also the most used, it's the Choice Specs set. This set really goes perfect with Dragalge's high base SpAtk and Draco Meteor adding Adaptability, making this pokemon a really good stall breaker with a devastating nuke in the tier. Dragalge also has a decent typing (Dragon/Poison), which helps him dealing with fairies and not dying to everything basically. Dragalge is really good/broken when it's used against a team that doesn't have many offensive pokemons that can shut it down in little time, since it can spam his main STABs without really caring what the opponent has on the field, maybe with the support of like Alomomola, since she can heal him with Wish and they both cover their weaknesses pretty well. Choice Specs also makes him good because it restricts the possibility of checking him, since his Meteors really hurt everyone overall. In conclusion I'd say a BAN would be pretty healthy for the tier.

Mega Pidgeot, oh god this one, I've seen this guy everywhere in this suspect, almost everyone was using it, and for good reasons. His stunning base 121 Speed make him outspeed most of the Tier easily giving most of the time free turns to spam the STAB Hurricane, one of the best flying moves coupled to his great base 135 SpAtk, the ability No Guard and the fattie 30% confusion chance, that was the most boring thing in the ladder I swear. Just all of this added to a really nice coverage with Heat Wave, U-Turn and Roost or Hidden Power Grass/Refresh to take your opponent with some nice surprises. Talking about surprises the Work Up set also it's really good for breaking some of the special walls the opponent will set you against like AV Slowking and Bronzong. But of course the Bird has some flaws: his high damage isn't enough to shut down some walls in the tier, and with his really bad defenses he can get beaten up.
One other weakness is that most of the time his common checks like Lanturn have a status move, Toxic can make him be really weak with Stealth Rock in combination and Thunder Wave just makes him almost useless slowing him down. So I'll vote ban or abstain for this.

The last but not least is Serperior. I really used the snake a lot because he can make lost games winnable with his new released ability, Contrary. It basically makes him a lethal revengekiller against low health/ mid health opponents with his high base Speed (113) and helps him with his terrible base SpAtk (75 lol).
I think he's letal because he punishes every switch of the opponent, and even pokemons like Registeel and Bronzong flinch against a +2/4 Leaf Storm. In addiction there could be a lot of sets you can use on him, making it really versatile for the tier, from the SubSeed one to the Sub3Atks and All-Out-Attacker one, he also has a various hidden power choice, so you will need to risk pretty much if you didn't scout it yet. I personally liked the Sub3Atks with Hidden Power Rock the most because it makes you less weak to statuses and if you're behind sub you can beat most of the birds with HP Rock, which also helps against Golbat. Overall I think it's too much for a tier like RU so I'll vote BAN.
 
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Ms. Sysbit said:
I am newer to the tier but ladder pretty decently so here are my views on the suspects as I have been saying in the RU chat a lot and why.
First we have Serperior. Game freak bestowed us with an ability that took this mon from garbage to gold in one fell swoop. My biggest issues with it are A it has a base speed of 113 leaving only: Ambipom(included for accuracy but NEVER use it), Cincino, Dugtrio(this is going to get you super far for sure), Mega-Pidgeot(Lets run a suspect to counter a suspect=healthiest meta possible am-i-right?), Jolteon, Accelgor(seems to be rising in use), and Mega Sceptile able to outspeed it. Now my second problem B is that it has a stabbed 130 power Nasty Plot. This is not in any way comparable to Malamar's underwhelming 120 power attack that gives him an attack and defense boost; this is a legit threat. While A LOT checks Serperior(Going to list every RU mon in alphabetical order: Amoongus, Braviary(especially if scarf), Cincino(252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 260-315 (89.3 - 108.2%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO and 252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 192-228 (65.9 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Cobalion, Delphox, Dragalgae, Drapion, Eelektross, Emboar, Escavalier, Fletchinder, Golbat, Houndoom, Magneton, Moltres, Pidgeot-Mega, Registeel, Shiftry, Skuntank, Virizion, and Whimsicott not very much counters Serperior.
From what I have seen the list of Counters for Serperior is short and most are shaky. The (mostly) agreed upon ones are Amoongus, Bouffalant, Fletchinder, Golbat, and Moltres. Now I am going to break down how effective each is and why it is or isn't shaky imo as most of these are. (All of these calculations will be using the 3 attacks set of Leaf Storm, Hidden Power Fire, and Dragon Pulse with 252 special attack, 252 speed, timid nature holding a life orb unless stated otherwise)

Golbat, Registeel, Skuntank, Bronzong, Amoongus come across as pretty solid counters. There are others including Sliggoo and Togetic that pretty much laugh in Serp's face.

Amoongus: I used to be told standard Amoongus was 252 hp, 160 def, 96 spec def bold. That seems to be changing now so will use this set first. To counter the snake you must swap into the attack. So off the bat you take 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 51-60 (11.8 - 13.8%). Now it outspeeds you and is at plus 2(assuming you didn't miss) and fires off +2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 255-302 (59 - 69.9%) while 0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 176-210 (60.4 - 72.1%). Amoongus either retaliates with 0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 176-210 (60.4 - 72.1%) which fails to kill and Serperior gets one more hit off potentially killing Amoongus if not itself depending on the roll(we have lost 10% from Leaf Storm, 10% from HP Fire and any further attack is another 10% so a high roll makes the next hit a double down) or Amoongus 0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 102-120 (35 - 41.2%) which does pathetic damage but resets the snake. If we follow the latter however we now have taken 59%-69.9% as black sludge has made up for the first Leaf Storm hit. Now Snake outspeeds and can 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 130-153 (30 - 35.4%) which means a high roll on the plus 2 hidden power fire can kill Amoongus so what a counter?! This isn't even factoring rocks which if are up 59%+11.8%+30%=100.8 and rocks have canceled out the sludge recovery. That's 3 absolute min rolls still equaling a kill. Not exactly a counter.

Now that set is practically dated due to Serperior so lets try a max HP, max SPec def spread calm.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 101-120 (23.3 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 198-234 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

So this spread or something similar(have not yet been informed of the agreed upon spec def Amoongus spread) can handle Serperior easily but if we are breaking long established sets to handle one mon doesn't that sound a bit like overcentralizing? Also Amoongus as defensive checks a lot of threats if not counters them and now it cant do that so the role Amoongus once filled has been swallowed up.

Metagames characteristically adapt and change as new threats are introduced. This entire argument seems to be more about an unwillingness to change, rather than proof of overcentralization. Is specially defensive Amoongus only really useful for handling Serperior? While Amoongus itself is not going to handle certain other threats, is that loss also significant?

Bouffalant is a solid counter to Serperior. Immunity to the Leaf Storm means it cant set up but for completeness' sake a few calcs
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Bouffalant: 88-104 (23.5 - 27.8%)
This barely breaks the sub and can fail to
252+ Atk Bouffalant Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 169-201 (58 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and if you got the leaf storm boost
+1 252+ Atk Bouffalant Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 255-301 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

So again a solid counter to Serperior and a solid mon in RU(C rank viability despite its PU usage ranking) but what was once a rarity/niche mon(correct me if I am wrong) has risen up from 2 tiers below as a way to handle a common threat. Sounds like overcentralizing to me.

Bouff wasn't nominated to rise because it took on Serp. It rose because it's a devastating attacker that found more openings for a set up. Again, this "centralization" is more or less the metagame adapting.
So Fletchinder. Not sure why so many feel this is a counter as its one time at best if rocks are up due to its 4x weakness halving its HP but the move it quad resists does
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Fletchinder: 81-95 (26.5 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
and if they predict Fletchinder as there is this counter mindset
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Fletchinder: 140-166 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
its practically popped if not straight up Ko-ed (with rocks up ofc)
But of course its a solid check as
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
You Just oh-ko after serp attacked once(and had a 3/4 chance from full regardless) so it definitely checks but countering is a stretch imo. Conditional counter maybe? Is that a term now? Or should it be? hmmmm

The presence of SR when considering a Pokemon such as Fletchinder isn't reliable, as there will obviously be some means of removal. While I wouldn't say it (and perhaps Moltres) would be my first choice, defensive sets can definitely check Serperior with the right support.
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Quick comments made in bold.
 
I am not hesitant to change. I didn't play that much of the "old meta" as I started post ORAS playing RU seriously. Overcentralization requires there to be changes in the meta; it refers to them being unhealthy. And if you really think Bouffalant rose solely as it got more openings and not because it counters a suspected mon I am doubtful to say the least. Amoongus used to handle threats like Slurpuff when defensive and having mixed bulk; now it is tossing that aside just to handle one mon? What other mon(s) does(do) it handle better that I missed out on? I am not aware of any others. As for Fletchinder I feel rocks are VERY fair to include as they are very commonly set and a counter needs to win in all situations barring hax. What good is a counter that is only time only if rocks are up? Just pressure their defogger/spinner to not come in(which Serperior could do if set up) and what good is the counter now?
 
Ms. Sysbit said:
I am not hesitant to change. I didn't play that much of the "old meta" as I started post ORAS playing RU seriously. Overcentralization requires there to be changes in the meta; it refers to them being unhealthy. And if you really think Bouffalant rose solely as it got more openings and not because it counters a suspected mon I am doubtful to say the least. Amoongus used to handle threats like Slurpuff when defensive and having mixed bulk; now it is tossing that aside just to handle one mon? What other mon(s) does(do) it handle better that I missed out on? I am not aware of any others. As for Fletchinder I feel rocks are VERY fair to include as they are very commonly set and a counter needs to win in all situations barring hax. What good is a counter that is only time only if rocks are up? Just pressure their defogger/spinner to not come in(which Serperior could do if set up) and what good is the counter now?
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The reasoning in the viability thread wasn't about its checking of Serp, but that it sets up much more easily in this meta than before. Serp might be a reason, but it certainly isn't THE reason. Amoongus didn't run that bulk to beat Foongus. +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 350-412 (81 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. No way in hell Amoongus should be trying to reliably check Slurpuff. Stealth Rock itself may be common, but so are removers. In the cases of defensive Fletchinder and Moltres, Stealth Rock will of course be removed ASAP. This required support prevents either from being counters, hence why I called them "checks."

Overcentralization traditionally requires the necessary use of obscure sets which are useful for little else aside from checking a certain Pokemon. It's not like Golbat/Togetic/others are useless lol.
 
Could someone do the calcs of Dugtrio vs Dragalge?

252 Life Orb Earthquake vs. 0 Def Choice Specs Dragalge


Could this ever work? Or would a sash be necessary?
 
Delta Tea said:
Could someone do the calcs of Dugtrio vs Dragalge?

252 Life Orb Earthquake vs. 0 Def Choice Specs Dragalge


Could this ever work? Or would a sash be necessary?
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First of all, for future reference, here is the link to Showdown's Damage Calculator. It should also be the first thing that comes up on Google when you search "Damage Calculator."

That said, here are your calcs vs. standard Dragalge:

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 258-306 (80.3 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 335-398 (104.3 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So yes, you do need a boosting item to actually be able to OHKO standard Dragalge. However, I think that considering Dugtrio is a trapper and the opponent obviously can't switch out of it as a result, your best option would probably be to run a Choice Band instead of a Life Orb due to the greater power.
 
TheTraininator said:
First of all, for future reference, here is the link to Showdown's Damage Calculator. It should also be the first thing that comes up on Google when you search "Damage Calculator."

That said, here are your calcs vs. standard Dragalge:

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 258-306 (80.3 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 335-398 (104.3 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So yes, you do need a boosting item to actually be able to OHKO standard Dragalge. However, I think that considering Dugtrio is a trapper and the opponent obviously can't switch out of it as a result, your best option would probably be to run a Choice Band instead of a Life Orb due to the greater power.
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Choice Band is an option, but I definitely feel that it is definitely outclassed by Life Orb. The life loss is fairly negligible a large portion of the time, and the damage decrease is also not that big of a deal since LO nabs pretty much all relevant kills that band gets, and prevents you from being setup fodder.

252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. -1 160 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 374-439 (103 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 218-257 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also hits Dragalge for enough damage as you just showed.

Ensuring the same kills that band does while not giving a free setup turn to something like SD Mega Abomasnow, Cresselia, or even Work Up Mega Pidgeot and being able to switch attacks, Memento, or get Stealth Rocks up is a pretty big deal.
 
Ok yesterday i got requirements so i feel like it is time to post my thoughts.

First Pidgeot. I feel that it is an incredibly broken force in the RU tier at the moment considering its limited amount of checks that can fit in offensive teams (it is like a barely less strong Moltres with far superior speed and that does not miss nor has a massive SR weakness) and a retarded mono attacking set that has very very little defensive counterplay (what are you going to use to beat it, Calm Mind Carbink? lol) and still fares well against most offensive and balanced teams especially paired with Dugtrio thanks to its impeccably Flying-type coverage that tears a new one to not bulky resists anyway. In addition to that its confusion chance makes it a bitch to deal with and makes wearing down stuff like Rhyperior (which already loses to hazards+U-turn or Hp Grass on the switch) at an incredibly consistent "Scald" rate. Not really much to add as a lot of people has included what i wanted to say about this so... B-B-B-BAN

Dragalge. I feel like this is the one i have more doubts on but it is mostly certainly broken too. The amount of power this Pokemon has is insane to the point even Cresselia can struggle to handle it and the pressure it puts on pretty much any defensive core is quite retarded but is what puts this above its competition is its incredible ease in switching in against pretty much every Water and Grass-type in the tier to start firing off its blows differently from stuff like Clawitzer and Exploud who pretty much get one switch in or less per battle and that have no use against offense. B-B-B-BAN

Serperior has 130 BP STAB Nasty Plot, good bulk, and 113 base Speed lol
 
Maybe it's just the fact that I'm running SpD MegaLix, SpD Bronzong, and SpD Golbat (irrespective of these three Pokemon's existence), but I don't find any of these Pokemon broken on the ladder /teehee. (Also Own tempo licki which is tits)

But seriously, I am using those mons, so my perspective is fairly worthless. Idk, Mpidge is still kind of a butt in spite of all the stuff I have and I hear it makes offense its sex slave so...probably banning it

Edit:

I guess what I can contribute is that those mons kick ass IRREGARDLESS of how incorrect that word is. I mean, Mlix is a baller curse/SR mon that threatens stall either way while being defensive in a big way, zonger checks so much dangerous stuff to stall, SpD Bat is a nice fogger too and it can check a fair amount of stuff while providing nice utility with all its infiltration fast BB fog.
 
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tehy said:
Maybe it's just the fact that I'm running SpD MegaLix, SpD Bronzong, and SpD Golbat (irrespective of these three Pokemon's existence), but I don't find any of these Pokemon broken on the ladder /teehee. (Also Own tempo licki which is tits)

But seriously, I am using those mons, so my perspective is fairly worthless. Idk, Mpidge is still kind of a butt in spite of all the stuff I have and I hear it makes offense its sex slave so...probably banning it
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Is it true Pidget speed is highest in the tier?
 
my thoughts on shit since i finally finished getting reqs:

Pidgeot: this one is hard. I understand in general other than the work up set by far its best matchup is offense... and i used almost exclusively bulky shit or tr while laddering, so it never posed a huge problem for me. That said, it was a major threat even in those matchups, and I do believe that its probably broken against offense. I haven't decided if I'm going to abstain on this one or vote ban, maybe I'll watch some ppl laddering offense to get a better idea.

Serperior: This shit is dumb. It doesn't matter how many answers to it you have, a well built serperior team will result in a serp sweep the vast majority of the time against defensive teams, and its fast enough to still be a major threat against offense. Basically the only things that can consistently beat it are like bouffalant and golbat, but golbat can get worn down/knocked off by teammates like pangoro, and bouffalant is lol. This to me is pretty clearly a ban.

Dragalge: This one is not /broken/ in the current metagame per se. Although its very good, its not really dumb, but this is because every single team right now, regardless of the type of team, basically is running a bronzong or a registeel. When youre forcing offensive teams to run mons that sr but absolutely destroy momentum and do nothing else, thats overcentralizing. I get dragalge isn't the only thing forcing all this bronzong usage, but its really unhealthy regardless, and people could definitely do more a lot more interesting things with teams to replace bronzong, avoiding the massive momentum murdering.
 
So I'm a couple hundred COIL off reqs (can't be bothered to get the rest atm) and I'm leaning on the side of banning everything.

Pidgeot is a massive threat as it can batter both offense and stall depending on what set you run. I'm not a massive fan of the work up set but it is nifty against stall and makes some checks like spdef Golbat no longer checks. It's really tough for any mons in offense to switch in on it because even stuff that would end up beating it like Jolteon is going to have to take damage to the point of where it's going to have a hard time coming in again. My other big problem with Pidgeot is its ability to cheese through its checks with 30% confusion. It's all well and good bringing in Golbat or Rhyperior or something that checks at least the non-work up set but the fact that there's such a real possibility of the confusion means these checks can often stop being checks based on hax. I really want this thing gone.

Honestly when I was laddering I found Serp pretty underwhelming but that's because I was using spdef Golbat for all of it which is a perfect counter to Serp since it easily eats up Dragon Pulse at almost any range of HP and does a whole load of damage back with Brave Bird (fwiw, spdef Golbat is a pretty good check to all of the suspects except work up Pidgeot). I haven't really seen anything of Serp from my position but I see a ton of other people saying it's amazing and it's certainly good on paper. Chances are I'll abstain from this one because I really haven't seen anything of it.

Dragalge is a massive threat because specs Draco Meteor is so damn powerful that unless you have Bronzong, Registeel or Golbat with no rocks up it's incredibly difficult to find a switchin. Registeel is forced out by Focus Blast and neither of them have recovery so it's possibly to eventually power through them at which point whenever you can get Dragalge in, which against defensive teams is quite easy, it's probably going to get a kill. I also don't think it's as bad against offense as some people are saying it is because again a lot of checks to it need to be wary of its coverage and, after taking one coverage move may have a hard time coming in on it again. It's a bit trickier to have an opportunity to bring it in but again, unless the opponent has a healthy Cobalion it's a nuke as soon as you can bring it in. Also, as Imanalt said there are so few mons that really can easily come into Dragalge that you're pretty much forced to run one of a certain few mons.
 
Thoughts after reqs

Dragalge Its a really great wall breaker/ pivot maybe even too good for the tier. Teams must prepare for it meaning you need a steel type and make sure to keep it healthy long enough. After taking out the check Drag has a field day every switch in is where the problem is. I don't think it broken before reqs or after, however I see how unhealthy it is to the meta. BAN

Mega Pidgeot this is a controversial mon to talk about to many but its very underwhelming against prepared teams. Hurricane confusion can turn a game around at any moment but its a part of the game is it not? There's many checks out there for bird unlike the other two suspects. If the meta can settle down with the bans I can see bird staying in RU. NO BAN

Serperior at first I thought the meta can handle it, however it's just as unhealthy to the meta as Drag. They both have a upperhand against certain play styles once checks get worn down its a easy clean up. Serp has good speed and just enough coverage to do work. BAN
 
Senpai D.M said:
Thoughts after reqs

Dragalge Its a really great wall breaker/ pivot maybe even too good for the tier. Teams must prepare for it meaning you need a steel type and make sure to keep it healthy long enough. After taking out the check Drag has a field day every switch in is where the problem is. I don't think it broken before reqs or after, however I see how unhealthy it is to the meta. BAN

Mega Pidgeot this is a controversial mon to talk about to many but its very underwhelming against prepared teams. Hurricane confusion can turn a game around at any moment but its a part of the game is it not? There's many checks out there for bird unlike the other two suspects. If the meta can settle down with the bans I can see bird staying in RU. NO BAN

Serperior at first I thought the meta can handle it, however it's just as unhealthy to the meta as Drag. They both have a upperhand against certain play styles once checks get worn down its a easy clean up. Serp has good speed and just enough coverage to do work. BAN
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Serperior can't get around spd bronzong, can it?


+1 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bronzong: 79-93 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- 77.8% chance to 4HKO

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bronzong: 105-124 (31 - 36.6%) -- 71.6% chance to 3HKO

Bronzong can toxic serperior, maybe even set up trick room, and stall.

Also, Dragalge can switch in to Serperior's leaf storm and laugh at it and easily scare it out. With Dragalge having very little reliable counters, it can fire off a life orb or choice specs STAB Draco Meteor.

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 61-72 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- 31.2% chance to 4HKO

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 61-72 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- 31.2% chance to 4HKO


252 SpA Life Orb Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 235-278 (80.7 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Dragalge Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 346-408 (118.9 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Delta Tea said:
Also, Dragalge can switch in to Serperior's leaf storm and laugh at it and easily scare it out.
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You didn't calculate this:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 281-333 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
(281, 286, 289, 291, 294, 299, 302, 304, 309, 312, 315, 317, 322, 325, 328, 333)
+2 252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 216-256 (67.2 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(216, 220, 222, 224, 226, 230, 232, 234, 238, 240, 242, 244, 248, 250, 252, 256)

did you?

Pretty sure if Dragalge switches on a Leaf Storm+Stealth Rock/layer of spikes it can easily get killed by a +2 Dragon Pulse by Serperior without life orb even with investiments in HP
 
No I didn't thanks. But, also, Some Serperior sets don't carry D-Pulse, some just carry HP Fire, or even HP Rock for moltres.
 
Delta Tea said:
No I didn't thanks. But, also, Some Serperior sets don't carry D-Pulse, some just carry HP Fire, or even HP Rock for moltres.
Click to expand...

The standard set is Leaf Storm | Dragon Pulse | HP Fire / HP Rock | Giga Drain / Substitute; they almost always run Dragon Pulse, making Dragalge a very unsafe switch-in.
 
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